PDA

View Full Version : 540 def min. Need some OLD information



superwombat
05-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Hey yall, I've been a tank of one flavor or another since WAY back in vanilla WoW. I remember especially back in TBC, there were hit tables and maths to support the minimum defense rating, and how it pushed crushing blows off the table. Also macros existed so that you could pop Shield Block (Or Holy Shield) and see if you hit the 103% block+avoidance to be Uncrushable.

The only info that seems to exist for Lich King is that 540 is the minimum. I have found some of the new macros that calculate total avoidance (Or avoidance+block) This all leads to my final question.

Given that Crit is now the bottom of the boss hit table, and the first thing to be pushed off. Is 540 defense REALLY the minimum for boss level mobs? How about if my total avoidance is 60%? Are you sure I'm not pushing crits off the table anyways? Where can I find this information?

From what I recall from Pre Lich King days, the more avoidance you had, the more the lower parts of the boss hit table were pushed off. Therefore it seems to me that at some level of avoidance, the amount of defense you need would start to go down...

To bring it down to my REAL question, my DK now has some Ulduar gear, and is sitting at 60.14% total avoidance (Dodge, Parry, Miss) totally unbuffed. Sadly, I actually have to use a Thick Dragons Eye to bring myself up to 541 defense. I want to replace that with a Stam gem, but that drops me to 536. Would I actually be crittable with those stats?

Feel free to call me an idiot if I'm missing something obvious here.

squats
05-06-2009, 05:17 PM
avoidance doesnt take anything off of the table untill you hit 102.4%, that is where you will either block, dodge, or pary everything. but it doesnt rule out critical hits.

deffence/resiliance are the stats that reduce the chance to get criticaly hit. and at 540 deffence, you reach the % you need to take the critical hits off the table.

also its notable that crushing blows dont happen anymore, 102.4% avoidance is only really looked for if your a trash tank

superwombat
05-06-2009, 05:24 PM
Awright, it's starting to come back to me now.

I was confusing the boss hit table, with my damage table. (I think)

Boss hit table goes something like
Miss--->Hit--->Crit
Only increasing his chance to miss, or your chance to not be crit modifies that table, which Defense does both.

Once that roll is finished, I decide what I'm gonna do with that result
Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Take it in the face

Something like that?

Frigid Dreadplate increases my chance to be missed by 3%. Does THAT lower my required minimum defense?

Can you tell I really want to get rid of that stupid defense gem?

Edit: looking back at this, it looks like I'm describing a 2 roll system, which I'm pretty sure bosses don't use. Does anyone have a modern boss hit table for Lich King? All the info I've read on this was so long ago it's starting to get hazy.

squats
05-06-2009, 05:30 PM
the only thing that will lower your def cap below 540 is resilience.

Voodan
05-06-2009, 05:45 PM
Roll mechanics aside, I think you're missing the distinction between how Defense affects your chance to be critically hit and other avoidance stats. I'm pretty sure Crits works like this at a very high level (without getting into specific numbers).

Already assuming you're going to be hit (i.e. you did not avoid the attack; I believe you can still partially block a critical hit but I'm not 100% on this), there is a % chance that hit will actually crit you. Defense/Resil reduce that chance and 540 defense is the amount you would need to prevent a critical hit.

If I am wrong about the fact that you can be crit on a blocked swing, then you would be able to include block in the 102.4% calculation and if you reached that amount of avoidance/mitigation, you would not be able to be crit. Otherwise, you would actually need to stack 102.4% Miss/Dodge/Parry to become uncrittable without the use of defense/resil. Needless to say that is currently impossible.

Hope that clears things up.

squats
05-06-2009, 05:52 PM
you cannot block a critical hit. if an attack gets through your dodge,pary and then you block it, even if it would have otherwise been a crit, the block would change it to a normal hit. the crit would have never happend because the attack was mitigated in some way causing the attack to be on the "normal" hit table.

normal meaning an attack can be either a regular or critical hit.

superwombat
05-06-2009, 07:16 PM
avoidance doesnt take anything off of the table untill you hit 102.4%, that is where you will either block, dodge, or pary everything. but it doesnt rule out critical hits.

deffence/resiliance are the stats that reduce the chance to get criticaly hit. and at 540 deffence, you reach the % you need to take the critical hits off the table.

also its notable that crushing blows dont happen anymore, 102.4% avoidance is only really looked for if your a trash tank

This sort of regurgitation of "Common Knowledge" is why I'm asking for the theory behind the 540. No one who has responded so far has any idea WHY 540 defense prevents crits, and have likely never seen a hit table in thier lives.

102.4% avoidance+block pushes HITS off the table. By the time you have pushed hits off the table, crits have fallen off the bottom LONG ago.

My previous response was hasty, and almost 100% incorrect.

The boss hit table looks more like this.

Miss-->Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Hit-->Crit

If the sum total of the first 4 are 102.4%, then the boss can no longer hit you, he can only miss, be dodged, parried, or blocked.

If the sum of the first FIVE (including hit) are 102.4%, he can no longer crit you. I just need the maths now to find out what the hit percentage is.

Klimpen
05-06-2009, 07:20 PM
For an equal level mob, they have a 5% change to crit you.
For each additional level, they gain .2% chance to crit you.
Boss level mobs are your level+3.
Thus Boss level mobs have a 5.6% chance to crit.
Each point of Defence Skill has a .04% reduction in chance to be crit.
Thus you need +140 Defence Skill to be uncrittable to a boss level mob.
Base Def is 400, +140, 540Def is the minimum to be Uncrit.

superwombat
05-06-2009, 07:29 PM
Based on the last response, and some digging back at EJ forums, I have come to this conclusion.

My hit table is functionally backwards at the end here.

It should be:
Crit-->Miss-->Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Hit

The only methods of reducing your chance to be Crit are defense and resilience. It's frustrating that almost all of the boss hit charts (Including the one at EJ forums) place crit at the end of the hit table, instead of the beginning. That makes the implication that you could push it off the end with enough avoidance regardless of defense. Clearly that's the wrong way of looking at it, and I'm gonna stop posting here before I make myself look even more foolish.

Edit: EJ hit table for reference


01 - 05: miss (5%)
06 - 10: parry (5%)
11 - 15: dodge (5%)
16 - 20: block (5%)
21 - 95: hit (75%)
96 -100: crit (5%)

... and then a single random number between 1 and 100 determines the outcome.

If a tank has a 10% chance to be missed, a 10% chance to dodge, 10% chance to parry, 10% chance to block, and has enough defense to be immune to critical hits, the table looks like this:

01 - 10: miss (10%)
11 - 20: parry (10%)
21 - 30: dodge (10%)
31 - 40: block (10%)
41 -100: hit (60%)


Can you see where the confusion comes from? They realize that more avoidance makes hits fall off the end of the table, but erroneously place crits even farther down the table, implying that they would be pushed off first.

Voodan
05-06-2009, 07:34 PM
The boss hit table looks more like this.

Miss-->Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Hit-->Crit

If the sum total of the first 4 are 102.4%, then the boss can no longer hit you, he can only miss, be dodged, parried, or blocked.

If the sum of the first FIVE (including hit) are 102.4%, he can no longer crit you. I just need the maths now to find out what the hit percentage is.

I'm just curious where you are getting this information. My understanding was that the Crit was a seperate roll that occured after a hit came up on the first roll. Thereby assuming a hit, you have a 5.6% chance of that hit being a crit. I think the only way to push crit off the table is to push a normal hit off the table. If this is not accurate, can you provide some type of theorycraft/blue post/evidence that its not?

Klimpen
05-06-2009, 07:41 PM
Melee combat [boss and player alike] has been prove to be a single roll.


01 - 05: miss (5%)
06 - 10: parry (5%)
11 - 15: dodge (5%)
16 - 20: block (5%)
xx - xx: crushing blow (0%)
21 - 25: crit (5%)
26 - 100: hit (75%)

Better? I'm fairly sure that's how the combat table is actually set up. I seem to remember tests which were done [back in BC] that proved that if were are uncrushable, you were uncritable. [and thus the quoted combat table layout]

squats
05-06-2009, 07:41 PM
This sort of regurgitation of "Common Knowledge" is why I'm asking for the theory behind the 540. No one who has responded so far has any idea WHY 540 defense prevents crits, and have likely never seen a hit table in thier lives.

102.4% avoidance+block pushes HITS off the table. By the time you have pushed hits off the table, crits have fallen off the bottom LONG ago.

My previous response was hasty, and almost 100% incorrect.

The boss hit table looks more like this.

Miss-->Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Hit-->Crit

If the sum total of the first 4 are 102.4%, then the boss can no longer hit you, he can only miss, be dodged, parried, or blocked.

If the sum of the first FIVE (including hit) are 102.4%, he can no longer crit you. I just need the maths now to find out what the hit percentage is.

i explained it to you.

a bosses hit table looks nothing like that. more like this.


hit table

Boss swings
-->dodge?
---->parry?
if no, then
->block?
if no, then
->miss?
--->hit?
if hit, then
-->phisical
--->phisical (crit)
its a bit more complex then what you think it is. i also told you exactly WHY you cant stack avoidance to the point where you cant get crit period. the only stat that reduces the chance for an attack to get through the end where it can be determined if it is a crit, or not. the ONLY TWO stats that can do this are defense, and resilience.

i can see how this works just fine..with your model. even tho you prove to yourself that you cant do it.


The boss hit table looks more like this.

Miss-->Dodge-->Parry-->Block-->Hit-->Crit
accourding to this. the attack can get all the way to block, if its blocked, the rest of the damage goes through and is then also determined if it is a normal or critical hit. your way doesnt work.

Zyffyr
05-06-2009, 11:22 PM
Squats, it doesn't work anything at all like you have said. Read Klimpen's post immediately above yours to see how the tables actually look.

It isn't a flowchart like you seem to think.

Furthermore, the order listing that superwombat is showing isn't "What order does it get rolled?", it is "What order is the stuff on the table?"

Feanorr
05-07-2009, 01:10 AM
There: Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table)


It's a bit out of date since there is still crushing blow on it but for the rest it's still true I think.

And, for my understanding, if you are "unhittable" (i.e. your dodge+parry+miss+block is > 102.4%), you cant be critted regardles of your defense.
But the only class that can be unhittable on a regular basis is paladin; since you are a DK, so no block, there is no way to avoid defense rating.
However, if you use the sigil of +def, you can go down to 530 def rating; you just need to cast Icy touch every 30sec (doesnt matter if it miss or whatever, the buff will still pop).

Martie
05-07-2009, 02:25 AM
540 defense removes your chance to be critted because, to date, bosses don't have an increased critical strike chance.
(I think some nonboss mobs do, though.)

So, the chance if you get critted is a function of your defense and their weapon skill.
All mobs have weapon and defense skills equal to 5 times their level.
If defense skill = weapon skill, the critical strike chance is 5%.
Each point difference adds or subtracts 0.04%.
Boss mobs count as having a level 3 higher then yours.
So, a boss mob has a weapon skill of 15 higher then your basic defense skill, adding 0.6% chance to do a critical strike, for a total chance of 5.6%.

Your defense skill tooltip tells you the reduction in critical strike chance.

Note: The resilience critical strike reduction stacks with that of defense, so if you have some resilience, your defense skill can be a bit lower. (This is a bad idea, though.)

The way the combat table works, melee hits either miss, are dodged, are parried, are blocked, are a normal hit or are a critical strike. It is possible to become uncrittable by pushing crit off the attack table. (Relying on this is a bad idea, though.)
For melee (white) hits, critical strikes and blocks are mutually exclusive. There is some dispute as this goes for skill hits too, I haven't seen anything conclusive, but last I heard, i can only happen for a small set of player skills.

The attack table works with a single roll. There are no seperate checks for dodge, parry, block, hit, crit and miss.

jere
05-07-2009, 05:22 AM
Melee combat [boss and player alike] has been prove to be a single roll.



01 - 05: miss (5%)
06 - 10: parry (5%)
11 - 15: dodge (5%)
16 - 20: block (5%)
xx - xx: crushing blow (0%)
21 - 25: crit (5%)
26 - 100: hit (75%)


Better? I'm fairly sure that's how the combat table is actually set up. I seem to remember tests which were done [back in BC] that proved that if were are uncrushable, you were uncritable. [and thus the quoted combat table layout]

I am pretty sure both crit and crushing blows are swapped around there. Hits should come off first, crushing blows second, and crits third (in order of increasing damage). If I remember correctly the tests you are referring to used "uncrushable" as a misnomer in the situations where crit was pushed off. It was called uncrushable because normally tanks were already uncrittable anyways, so it typically only affected crushings. People then extrapolated that if you happen to be crittable (in terms of amount of defense) but could avoid or block every hit that you wouldn't get crit either, but still called it uncrushable, since that was the standard name for 102.4% typically.

I am very sure that squats' explanation is way off. If his example was the case, then WWS parses wouldn't so closely follow my own avoidance numbers over large data sets.

For example, my numbers are around 25% dodge, 18% parry, and 45% block. If squats table was correct, then I would see a block percentage of (1-.25-.18)*.45 = .2565, or around 25.5% block on all my boss parses tallied. Instead I see around 45%, which matches my block % in a single roll table.

Satorri
05-07-2009, 05:31 AM
Blizzard has said expressly, admittedly back in BC, but they have spelled it out. Critical hits are not a traditional member of the hit table the way we consider it.

Every hit can be a crit if it is avoided or not. You do NOT push crits off the table, i.e. if you have 500 def skill and 80% avoidance you can still be crit.

The calculation of crit chance is based on the difference between attacker's weapon skill and the defender's defense skill. As stated above when weapon skill = defense skill the base crit chance of a mob is 5%. To remove the 5.6% difference of a level 80 tank and a level 83 (boss) mob, is 140 def skill over the cap, regardless of level.

No one is positive how the roll system works, though theorycrafters are confident that it is a single roll system for the hit roll itself. Essentially the hit table looks like the following:
0001-0000 = miss
0000-0000 = dodge
0000-0000 = parry
0000-0000 = block
0000-0000 = glancing
0000-0000 = hit
0000-0000 = crushing

For a mob attacking a player, Glancing is 0% chance, and for a level 80 player, there are currently no mobs in game that have a chance to get a Crushing blow (requires 4+ levels). So, let's say you have a 9% miss, 25% dodge, 17% parry, 20% block, and you are defense capped.

0001 - 0900 = miss
0901 - 3400 = dodge
3401 - 5100 = parry
5101 - 7100 = block
7101 - 0000 = hit

So far as I can figure the best way this makes sense it, with the info that Blizz has disclosed is that the crit flag is a factor that is determined either when the strike is entered (i.e. Raid Boss swings at Tank A or Raid Boss critical swings at Tank A), OR it is factored when strike damage is determined (which makes sense for being code light, particularly for player characters, as each individual attack has its own adjustments for crit chance and crit damage).

Suffice to say, your avoidance will not remove your ability to be crit. If your defense is below the required cap and you are hit, you CAN be crit.

Fini
05-07-2009, 09:06 AM
Simply put, Crits are a percentage of hits, regardless of how much avoidance you have, if you get hit, then there's a chance that the hit turns into a crit. A critical hit is just a damage modifier to a regular hit. The only way to 'mitigate' it is defense skill, which lowers their chance to crit, or resilience, which reduces critical damage modifiers to the point that the critical damage modifier is 1.0 * normal hit damage.

morelore
05-07-2009, 09:21 AM
Blizzard has said expressly, admittedly back in BC, but they have spelled it out. Critical hits are not a traditional member of the hit table the way we consider it.

Every hit can be a crit if it is avoided or not. You do NOT push crits off the table, i.e. if you have 500 def skill and 80% avoidance you can still be crit.

The calculation of crit chance is based on the difference between attacker's weapon skill and the defender's defense skill. As stated above when weapon skill = defense skill the base crit chance of a mob is 5%. To remove the 5.6% difference of a level 80 tank and a level 83 (boss) mob, is 140 def skill over the cap, regardless of level.

No one is positive how the roll system works, though theorycrafters are confident that it is a single roll system for the hit roll itself. Essentially the hit table looks like the following:
0001-0000 = miss
0000-0000 = dodge
0000-0000 = parry
0000-0000 = block
0000-0000 = glancing
0000-0000 = hit
0000-0000 = crushing

For a mob attacking a player, Glancing is 0% chance, and for a level 80 player, there are currently no mobs in game that have a chance to get a Crushing blow (requires 4+ levels). So, let's say you have a 9% miss, 25% dodge, 17% parry, 20% block, and you are defense capped.

0001 - 0900 = miss
0901 - 3400 = dodge
3401 - 5100 = parry
5101 - 7100 = block
7101 - 0000 = hit

So far as I can figure the best way this makes sense it, with the info that Blizz has disclosed is that the crit flag is a factor that is determined either when the strike is entered (i.e. Raid Boss swings at Tank A or Raid Boss critical swings at Tank A), OR it is factored when strike damage is determined (which makes sense for being code light, particularly for player characters, as each individual attack has its own adjustments for crit chance and crit damage).

Suffice to say, your avoidance will not remove your ability to be crit. If your defense is below the required cap and you are hit, you CAN be crit.

In BC, you absolutely could avoid crits by hitting the avoidance cap, as avoidance capped druids and rogues proved. So if you're basing this on information you remember from the BC days, you're wrong.

I have a theory that block will push hits but not crits off the table. Unless you're *pure* avoidance capped (not possible at 80 anymore) this will give the same results as your theory about a blocked hit "becoming" a crit if it's rolled - a block capped tank will see unblocked crits at the same rate as the mobs crit rate, so it's really about how you describe the problem rather than one theory being correct over the other. Given that player white hits are clearly on the one-roll system (proven by forcing crits with -hit debuffs), and it's unlikely that bosses us a different system, and there's already a "priority" system for filling the hit table, it's likely that the system is implemented the way I think it is, rather than the way you think it is - but it will have the same net effect on a block capped tank.

One way to try to detect the difference is by simply taking hits with high (but not capped) avoidance, no block, and no defense. If you see crits at roughly 5% (over a large number of samples, of course), then it's a single roll system. If you see crits at roughly 5%*avoidance, then it's a 2 roll system.

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 09:43 AM
No Fini. It doesn't check to see if you hit, THEN check if it's a crit. That's a double roll.

The table looks something like this:

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
Crit
CB
Hit

Hit is always at the bottom, as you get better and better avoidance and block you begin pushing HITS off the table, not Crushing Blows, NOT Crits. Crushing BLOW % used to be 15% chance against skull bosses (+3) they've changed it to be +4 so now as long as you are at your defense maximum before gear (400 at level 80), skull bosses cannot crushing blow anymore (with the exception to thorim who unbalancing strikes you to remove your base defense) so the new table will look like:

miss
dodge
parry
block
crit
hit

now throw in your avoidance numbers in there and spread it out across a say... 10000 roll

lets use my relative numbers

miss ~10%
dodge ~ 25%
parry ~ 22%
block ~ 19%
crit ~ 5.6% - 5.6% from having 540 defense minimum = 0
hit = 102.4% - above = 26.4%

So the roll will look something like

x = Rand(10000)
if (x <= 1000) Miss
else if (x > 1000 and x <= 3500) dodge
else if (x > 3500 and x <= 5700) parry
else if (x > 5700 and x <= 7600) block
else hit

Fini is wrong, squats' assumptions are off, and to answer the OP directly,

YES you are still crittable, lets fill in your numbers:

60.14% avoidance right? Since avoidance is all calculated as part of the single roll, it doesn't matter how you distribute it for this situation

so at 536 defense you'll be crittable because you are 4 points shy of 540 that means 4 * .04 = .16% chance to be crit.

Your combat roll will look like this:

60.14% dodge/parry/miss
.16% crit
42.1% hit

That's it. Nothing else, no complicated double rolls, no double checks. using the same 10000 roll system above:

x = Rand(10000)
if (x <= 6014) miss/dodge/parry
else if (x > 6014 and x <= 6030) CRITICAL STRIKE
else hit

Yes? Yes.

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 09:47 AM
In BC, you absolutely could avoid crits by hitting the avoidance cap, as avoidance capped druids and rogues proved. So if you're basing this on information you remember from the BC days, you're wrong.


Correct. If you reach the avoidance cap (102.4%) because there wasn't DRs then, your change the combat table so that crits get pushed off as well.

look, another example

Lets say it's a druid for realities sake.

Lets say you has achieved the 102.4% avoidance by say, 5% innate miss and then 97.4% dodge.

his table looks like this:

miss = 5%
dodge = 97.4%
parry = bear can't parry 0
block = bear can't block 0
crit = 0
crushing blow = 0
hit = 0

When the rand occurs it just looks like this:

x = rand(10000)
if (x > 500) miss
else dodge

that's it. Crits got pushed off, because avoidance comes BEFORE crits. It's why TECHNICALLY if you have enough avoidance + block, you technically, TECHNICALLY, can push crits off with PURE avoidance + BLOCK. HOWEVER, this will probably NEVER happen because in order to achieve this avoidance+block 102.4% you will NEED defense, defense at levels above 540.

morelore
05-07-2009, 09:50 AM
look, another example

Lets say it's a druid for realities sake.

Lets say you has achieved the 102.4% avoidance by say, 5% innate miss and then 97.4% dodge.

his table looks like this:

miss = 5%
dodge = 97.4%
parry = bear can't parry 0
block = bear can't block 0
crit = 0
crushing blow = 0
hit = 0

When the rand occurs it just looks like this:

x = rand(10000)
if (x > 500) miss
else dodge

that's it. Crits got pushed off, because avoidance comes BEFORE crits. It's why TECHNICALLY if you have enough avoidance + block, you technically, TECHNICALLY, can push crits off with PURE avoidance + BLOCK. HOWEVER, this will probably NEVER happen because in order to achieve this avoidance+block 102.4% you will NEED defense, defense at levels above 540.

No, you don't. I can easily block cap with less than 540 defense. And what you're stating as an assertion is exactly what we're debating here - I don't think it's true, although I've not comprehensively tested it.

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 09:55 AM
I re-read your post and changed my assertion that you were correct, apologies.

As for the whole defense required to reach 102.4% I don't see how you can reach that without getting 540 defense but I suppose it CAN happen, but you'd have to willingly TRY to do it.

Unless of course your a paladin, then you cheat. Warriors can do it every 40 seconds for 10 seconds as well =P

Molohk
05-07-2009, 10:04 AM
Satorri is exactly right, however there is also the posibility that crits are included into the combat table before the roll is made and as a subset of the "hit" segment. So you'd end up with Satorri's table (9 miss, 25 dodge, 17 parry, 20 block, 29 hit) and then divide the hit segment into normal hits and critical hits (i.e. 29 hit = 25 normalhit + 4 crit).

The chances to land a hit, are really the remnant once you substract all other chances to avoid/block, and crits are added as a subsegment of this remnant and not as a primary segment of the table. This is why dodge, blocks and parries cannot be critical hits, and it is also why you can push crits off the table (along with with hits) only when you are capped for avoidance/block.

jere
05-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Blizzard has said expressly, admittedly back in BC, but they have spelled it out. Critical hits are not a traditional member of the hit table the way we consider it.

Every hit can be a crit if it is avoided or not. You do NOT push crits off the table, i.e. if you have 500 def skill and 80% avoidance you can still be crit.

That's interesting. I have never seen a blue say that at all. Do you have the source for it?

It also goes against the statistical data I have seen. Take the rogue that did all that tanking: he/she didn't get crit or crushed and had much less than 540 defense (he/she stacked dodge). Also, from my own experience, I have never received a crit when I was tanking with slightly less than the min defense as long as I was 102.4% (I did for a while due to how the upgrades fell).

I don't think avoided/blocked hits can be criticals. If you could provide the source on that, it would definitely be an interesting read. I didn't see it in the beta or normal forums though.

EDIT: As a note of clarification, what I am having a hard time believing is that it sounds like you are asserting that crits are off a two roll system in that you go through the normal hit/crush/dodge/parry/miss/block and once that is done, you do crits. That doesn't seem right and I can't find any source to verify it. As far as I have seen, crits seem to follow the one roll theory.

Satrina
05-07-2009, 10:18 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/33093-combat-table.html
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f111/33098-combat-table-analysis.html

Shadevarr
05-07-2009, 10:19 AM
Criticals behave differently in pvp. I recall that comment from Satorri and it was in reference to tanks being uncrittable due to shield block spamming in pvp. Blizz clearly stated that in pvp cases only, a blocked attack can still crit IF it is a special. This is where the double-roll for specials started.

Molohk
05-07-2009, 10:26 AM
I don't think avoided/blocked hits can be criticals. If you could provide the source on that, it would definitely be an interesting read. I didn't see it in the beta or normal forums though.

There's some confusion with the wording. Blizzard did say "The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only". However, only normal hits can be crits, so for a combat table model you'd see all if these "crits" inside the "hit" segment of the table. That means if you're above 102.4% avoidance/block you will never be critted (even though your crit chance is still 5% or whatever, but it just doesnt fit into the attack table).

The link is here World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> 08/06/05 Info on crit and hit chances (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=14551513&sid=1)

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 10:33 AM
I think the wording is off, what he's saying isn't that you check for hit then crit, i think he's trying to say you DONT check to hit, THEN check to crit. He's saying wow calculates crit over all attacks, in other words, a single roll.

And i'm pretty sure Satrina's testing, basically puts an end to all conflicts.

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 10:45 AM
There's some confusion with the wording. Blizzard did say "The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only". However, only normal hits can be crits, so for a combat table model you'd see all if these "crits" inside the "hit" segment of the table. That means if you're above 102.4% avoidance/block you will never be critted (even though your crit chance is still 5% or whatever, but it just doesnt fit into the attack table).

The link is here World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> 08/06/05 Info on crit and hit chances (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=14551513&sid=1)

Yeah... i think you're reading into it incorrectly. He says Crit rate is NOT based on Hits only. which is basically refuting what satorri and you are saying checking hit first, THEN crit. He also specifically says 5% crit will appear 5% of the time on your results, in which case, a hit then crit check, would return LOWER % chance of crits than you'd expect (as seen in Satrina's short-circuit testing of the combat table).

Molohk
05-07-2009, 11:03 AM
Sorry if I only contributed with more confusion, lol. Let me clarify and reword: Even though crit *chance* is calculated from all attacks, only hits can be crits. In an attack table like the one Satorri listed, as a subset of the "hit" segment. I guess it would be more adecuate to call them "adjacent segments". Supose you have:

10% miss
20% dodge
20% parry
20% block
30% hit

The 30% chance to be hit, is really just what's left over when you substract the chances to be missed, dodge, parry and block from 100%. Now supose there's a 5% chance to crit, it will be allocated in the "hit" segment of the table, and it will be 5% of the total table, not 5% of the 30% hit, leaving you with a table like this:

10% miss
20% dodge
20% parry
20% block
5% crit
25% hit

Regarding the OP, this means that increasing avoidance and block still can knock crits (and hits) off the table. However, while defense obviously reduces your chances to be crit, it does not change the fact that you need 102.4% avoidance+block to knock crits off the table if you still have a chance to be critted.

jere
05-07-2009, 12:59 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/33093-combat-table.html
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f111/33098-combat-table-analysis.html

Yep, these go along with what I was seeing! Thanks Satrina. I am not sure where Satorri is getting the other info.

Satrina
05-07-2009, 01:07 PM
As someone noted before, PvP and PvE follow different rules. There is very strong evidence for a two roll system in PvP where a hit can be turned into a crit by the second roll, which might be what Satorri is thinking of. Players attacking mobs in PvE might even follow the same rules as in PvP. That's not an area I worry about, someone else can do the testing for that =)

superwombat
05-07-2009, 01:21 PM
Very exciting stuff, thanks everyone for clearing up my muddied mind there.

I knew there was something wrong with what I had been thinking, but all the good theorycrafters quit playing when Lich King came out, and their old data is getting harder and harder to find.

Kazeyonoma
05-07-2009, 02:39 PM
All the good theorycrafters are still here... the only one I can think of that quit was uhh... orc warrior... advocated avoidance.... gah, can't remember his name, but we have his work posted here as well.

Satrina
05-07-2009, 03:02 PM
The thing is, not much in the way of basics has changed beyond diminishing returns on avoidance, so no new theory articles are beng bumped all the time. For whatever reason, people seem to be allergic to the guides forum here. I should get off my butt and do the reorganisation of that forum. Maybe this weekend.

Inaara
05-07-2009, 03:03 PM
The thing is, not much in the way of basics has changed beyond diminishing returns on avoidance, so no new theory articles are beng bumped all the time. For whatever reason, people seem to be allergic to the guides forum here. I should get off my butt and do the reorganisation of that forum. Maybe this weekend.

You are a generous soul.

superwombat
05-07-2009, 03:40 PM
The thing is, not much in the way of basics has changed beyond diminishing returns on avoidance, so no new theory articles are beng bumped all the time. For whatever reason, people seem to be allergic to the guides forum here. I should get off my butt and do the reorganisation of that forum. Maybe this weekend.

I personally have a really hard time wading through the guide forums. At least half of the guides there are full of TBC data that hadn't been correct for a year now, or 3.0 data, which has also changed drastically. Sure, some things are still right, like combat tables, but it's very hard to filter through everything to find the few gems that are actually relevant to the game we play today.

jere
05-07-2009, 04:11 PM
The thing is, not much in the way of basics has changed beyond diminishing returns on avoidance, so no new theory articles are beng bumped all the time. For whatever reason, people seem to be allergic to the guides forum here. I should get off my butt and do the reorganisation of that forum. Maybe this weekend.

I think a lot of it is simply dilution. We have a Theory and Mechanics forum where a lot of things are posted, the tankspot library, which has guides in it, and subforums for the tankspot library which also have guides for it. I honestly forget to check the subforums, because subforums tend to escape my general sight when skimming forums.

Voodan
05-07-2009, 04:30 PM
Yes? Yes.

Well played sir, well played.

Isegrim
05-08-2009, 04:40 AM
Sorry if I only contributed with more confusion, lol. Let me clarify and reword: Even though crit *chance* is calculated from all attacks, only hits can be crits. In an attack table like the one Satorri listed, as a subset of the "hit" segment. I guess it would be more adecuate to call them "adjacent segments". Supose you have:

10% miss
20% dodge
20% parry
20% block
30% hit

The 30% chance to be hit, is really just what's left over when you substract the chances to be missed, dodge, parry and block from 100%. Now supose there's a 5% chance to crit, it will be allocated in the "hit" segment of the table, and it will be 5% of the total table, not 5% of the 30% hit, leaving you with a table like this:

10% miss
20% dodge
20% parry
20% block
5% crit
25% hit
I really don't see what it is you're trying to do here, you jump through weird additional steps to get to essentially the correct end result, which is what Kazey among others have been saying: That the hits and crits act like completely different entities in the combat table when mobs attack players.

The chance to be Hit is what is left over after Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, Crit (and Crushing Blows, for mobs of +4 levels). Increased Crit chance means reduced (normal) Hit chance. If you increase your avoidance by stacking Parry (ignoring Diminishing Returns curves here), Hit chance is the first to be reduced. When you can no longer get Hit, Crits will start getting knocked off the table. After you can no longer be Crit, Block will start to get knocked off, and once they're gone, you could add some Defense which would reduce your Parry chance to make room for the increased Miss and Dodge.

What I'm trying to get across is the fact that crit behaves just like all the other items in the attack table (for mob vs. player), and not like a "sub-part" of hit. Considering it such is more likely to confuse rather than help.

Satorri
05-08-2009, 06:02 AM
I am particularly interested in the sequence of calculations here.

We have collected piles of data from the game but we have not exposed the ACTUAL method because it is done server side. It cannot be datamined.


Suffice to say no one knowledgeable in the system believes there is a "2 roll" for the sake of our pve tanking, meaning there is not one roll to hit (factoring avoidance/block) and one to check for critical effect. There is, however another random roll on the damage calculation (many moves have a damage range, particularly melee swings).

There are a lot of rolls going on in the system, and while it's common programming sense to minimize the amount of things the system has to do on each action to minimize network traffic and server load, I'm not convinced we have certain aspects correct. Particularly Critical effects being included in the hit table consideration.


As an amendment to the above posts, the reason rogue tanking worked was that they weren't getting hit much at all, and that lends further credence against the idea that crit effects are in the crit table. In that theory, if you are crittable but push your avoidance way up, if the boss hits you once it MUST crit, which I have not seen.


All of this is a bit moot though, since it's not at all hard to be crit immune thanks to defense, and it is far more laborious to try and stack dodge/parry/block to occlude the hit portion of the table. If you can do that reliable enough to not get hit ever, duck and cover for the incoming nerf.

Satrina
05-08-2009, 06:18 AM
It may be server side, but it's definitely testable. As a level 79 mob would have a 4.8% chance to crit you naked, we extend that and choose a level 56 mob that would have a 0.2% chance to crit you naked*. Similarly, your chance to dodge and parry against that mob are each increased by 4.8% over your naked stats. Now pile on non-defense gear, elixirs, etc. to fill out the combat table and leave only miss/dodge/parry/(block)/crit and test away.

* You could also choose a level 55 and test that it cannot crit you at all

jere
05-08-2009, 09:25 AM
As an amendment to the above posts, the reason rogue tanking worked was that they weren't getting hit much at all, and that lends further credence against the idea that crit effects are in the crit table. In that theory, if you are crittable but push your avoidance way up, if the boss hits you once it MUST crit, which I have not seen.


When I was watching the videos, the rogue didn't take any melee damage at all that I recall (watch the Gruul one and the Mother Shazz one). All I ever saw him take was magic damage.

It would be interesting to test to see how it works. If I get some time, I might head over to ZG or something this weekend with my block capped set and arrange my pieces so I am low on defense and just below 102.4% (not sure if I have the pieces for this yet, but I can check). If I get crit every time I don't block or avoid, it would support the one roll theory.

Satorri
05-09-2009, 05:19 AM
That would be an interesting test.

Granted they've since nerfed my rogue's dodge, but I'd be inclined to create an extreme avoidance build/set and see what happens there as well. I've actually seen potential in a rogue tanking spec, as opposed to a Boomkin spec which I was playing with for fun before, but got smooshed. If only Survival of the Fittest were earlier in the tree that would make it much easier.

Proximity
05-09-2009, 08:06 AM
It was my understanding that crits are the last hit type to be pushed off the table. If you are under the defense cap, with, say, 98% avoidance/block, every non-mitigated hit against you would be a crit. It used to work this way for crushing blows, and I see no reason for it to be different for crits.

But, the fact that it is incredibly difficult to create a set that can maintain 102.4% avoidance/block without reaching the defense cap is enough to make it so this probably never comes up in a serious raiding setting.

Satorri
05-10-2009, 05:18 AM
Yes Prox, that's the popular theory. But just because a lot of people think it is so doesn't make it actually true.

Much of what we work with is just tested and functional theory. Our models work so far as we can test them so far all intents and purposes, they may as well be true. Just because it holds up as far as we can test it, does NOT mean that's actually how it works. Practical philosophy of science here. =)

minrog
05-11-2009, 02:25 AM
As for the OP, the problem is that even if you push crits off the table it's active defense only if you aren't reducing the crit rating by 5.6% via defense skill + resilience. You'll get stunned it one of the seventy bajillion boss encounters that uses the stun mechanic and then 1 shotted by a huge crit.

It is for this reason I always objected to people calling SBV effective health; if it doesn't work while stunned I consider it an avoidance stat. Wouldn't be an issue except sometimes it feels like I spend more time frozen in place than I do being able to use my abilities.

jere
05-11-2009, 06:25 AM
Interestingly enough, if you wanted to, you could use the same roll to do both the combat table decision and the damage (if it was a hit):



r=rand();
if(r>miss_min && r<miss_max){d=0;}
else if(r>dodge_min && r<dodge_max){d=0;}
else if(r>parry_min && r<parry_max){d=0;}
*
*
*
else{d=d_min + r%(d_max-d_min);}


Sorry, random thought.

Back on topic:
I would need to think about which boss to test it on. I didn't have the gear to test, but went into ZG to scout out the bosses. None of the ones I tried really lended themselves to this kind of testing (at least for solo purposes):
Tiger boss -- silence
Panther -- too many adds
fish -- too much magic damage
bat -- magic damage
Jindo -- lol
hakkar -- MC/magic
snake -- poison (possibly doable, but a bear if it falls during HS refresh time).

I may need to figure out a boss to test with that is doable solo for long periods of time. Well that and get the right gear setup.