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BotD
05-06-2009, 12:08 PM
I am curious as to whether anyone has done the calculations or empirical tests on which of these a blood DK tank should prefer? Which produces more threat when including the healing component of Death Strike and Sudden Doom procs off Heart Strike? How much health does a maxed out Death Strike give a tank?

I would really like to know because it influences my talent and glyph choices.

Vanthus
05-06-2009, 01:13 PM
I don't think there is much question that HS is preferred to DS in DPS, especially if you get Death Rune Mastery.

BotD
05-06-2009, 01:31 PM
I have heard some Blood DKs prefer drop Death Rune Mastery and just Death Strike. Is this merely for the health gain and again, how much health are we talking about?

Let me expand this and ask, assuming Heart Strike spam, which talents give the most threat a point? In particular what is the relative value of Subversion, Sudden Doom, Improved Death Strike and Morbidity?

Esch
05-06-2009, 02:00 PM
SHORT version, HS > DS, partly as you can get hit more targets (holding threat on more and/or kill stuff faster) and you can get 2x HS for the same number of runes as DS. Note that with Death Rune Mastery, you DS, then use 2xHS on the next cycle. On strictly damage per rune, single target, they are about equal. Multiple targets, HS races ahead.

Deathstrike Healing is 5% total health per disease, maxing at 15%. Obviously, the more health you have, the more you regen. The damage Deathstrike does is irrelavent to that percentage, so long as it hits a diseased target. I expect that a DK dropping Death Rune Mastery is using the DS glyph (25% more damage based on runic power), but I don't feel that loss of HS 'spam' is comparable.

I don't really have numbers for threat, though I opted for Imp DS & Morbidity (for faster DnD). Sudden Doom relies on procs & I just didn't feel I had points for it or Subversion in my tank-centric build.

Feanorr
05-07-2009, 01:25 AM
From my WWS reports, DS is 6600+1600 (from healing) average threat per strike. HS is 5500 so, 11000 for 2 HS.
DS can be more if you dont overheal but I dont think it can beat 2 HS.

That was with subversion, improved DS and glyph of DS. I didnt count Sudden doom proc for HS but since I had only 1 point in it, it's fairly low.


Oh and it was on Deconstructor fight, so only one target.

Satorri
05-07-2009, 05:13 AM
Let me be clear, it is not a matter of DS or HS, it is DS vs 2xHS, and it is not an either or, or really shouldn't be ever for a blood tank.

HS, especially with Sudden Doom is better reliable dmg/threat on a single target, since you can spam two in lieu of each single DS. If a second target is available, HS leaves DS behind pretty well. DS is most valuable for it's healing value and to turn over FU pairs to death runes.

I've seen people not take DRM and just DS, but my rotation has been very versatile for my method. Specifically, relying on DS only for changing runes (and popped occasionally for more health, love that heal), and using a predominantly single rune chain, it is very easy to adapt on the fly. Glyph of Disease maintains all diseases for a single rune cost allowing me to use the other runes without interruption and I can slip it in at any time in sequence since I'm using all 6 runes as blood runes usually. Even with this method 50% of my heals are coming from DS and it is only at a 45-50% overheal rate. The catch with the healing threat from DS (which is formidable when it lands, overhealing generates no threat), is that with multiple targets the healing threat is split not shared.

I wouldn't put one tool ahead of the other always, use the tool that's smart. DRM allows you to really make use of the two fully, which is why I prefer to use that with the single rune method.

Nazhir
05-07-2009, 05:24 AM
although I don't speak from maths or numbers, I would say HS. the advantage of hitting two targets is really quite valuable.

besides, your healer will do the job of keeping your health up. the healing DS provides really isn't enough to sustain yourself should your healer go down.

Satorri
05-08-2009, 05:29 AM
Point of fact Nazhir, I disagree on the last point. I cannot keep myself alive indefinitely, but I offer a significant amount to my healing. On a typical fight I am offering about 25-35% of my own healing (my self-healing means I need less healers assigned to me.

I've protracted tanking when I lose a healer or two by a LOT. Vamp Blood + DS heals + Rune Tap Heals + Gift of the Naaru is almost comical as to how long I can hold myself up.

Nazhir
05-08-2009, 06:58 PM
I stand corrected, Satorri. I failed to take into account Vampiric Blood, which any Blood Tank would have.

In situations where its crucial you remain alive for another 20 or so seconds, it seems Death Strike would indeed be a viable choice.

Blueduck3285
05-08-2009, 07:06 PM
Well, I wouldnt quite say any Blood tank would have VB. I personally have a bit of a more dps/threat oriented build, as I usually have dps that can pull 4k+ in 10's. At a drop of a hat, popping DnD, converting FU pairs and dropping HS's like theirs no tomorrow can push me up to over 8k+ over a few very short seconds. My pally/druid counterparts hate when I do this for fun on Patch.

I totally agree with Satorri about the importance of Both in your rotation. Stringing HS's does a great amount of threat and dps especially with Sudden Doom procs, even if its a single target.

Nazhir
05-08-2009, 10:43 PM
Hmm..just out of interest, Blue, where did you place the point if not in VB? just curious

Feanorr
05-09-2009, 03:57 AM
Well, I wouldnt quite say any Blood tank would have VB. I personally have a bit of a more dps/threat oriented build, as I usually have dps that can pull 4k+ in 10's. At a drop of a hat, popping DnD, converting FU pairs and dropping HS's like theirs no tomorrow can push me up to over 8k+ over a few very short seconds. My pally/druid counterparts hate when I do this for fun on Patch.

First, I am really not sure that your spec product more TPS than a full blood one; exemple: Necrosis vs Blood gorget, I am pretty sure Blood gorget win; -10% armor for all physical skill (and white swing) versus +20% shadow damage on white swing only.
Second, even if you want to keep your blood/unholy spec, it would be easy to find one point to get VB. You are loosing a great survival talent for not much imo.