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Trondhjem
05-05-2009, 05:13 AM
Hi there,
I played a bit with Rawr and I found a quite remarkable diagram.

It told me, the damage of Rend is higher than Devastate for example... w/ 20% more skilled damage via talent (what is no problem cause you can easily set the rage of charge aside) even higher than ConcBlow or Shockwave and it even raises w/ Trauma.

So is Rend worth a Cooldown and 10 rage every 15 sec?
Or doesn't it even stack with another Rend of another (MS-)Warrior?
Or does Rawr lie?
Questions over questions ;)

Thanks in advance

Squashed
05-05-2009, 05:51 AM
I haven't done the math, but I think its pretty safe to say the reason we don't use this in place of devastate is due to 1) sword & board not proc'ing 2) no armor debuff 3) devastate glyphs people for threat generation.

Rends damage is very poor with 1h weapons, its meant to use a slow weapon with a high average damage.

That said, if you're not running with a deep wounds build and you have an assassination rogue (I think assasination) they may appreciate the rend on the target.

It really bothers me how much we don't want to use our 41 point talent though, its quite sad. I wish it would receive a buff to damage done while wearing a shield, or something like that.

Trondhjem
05-05-2009, 06:24 AM
Indeed, Devastate is a bit low for its position in our talent trees...


Concerning your arguments:
1) I had equipped a 1h weapon when using Rawr so the damage is compareable
2) Sword and Board not proccing is a good point but once in 15s for therefore higher damage and threat may be worth it.
3) SunderArmor has major priority, you're right. But given it's at 5 stacks and 30s duration. Why spamming Devastate any further?
4) Does Rend w/ the Rogues Rupture not stack?!?


[I'll try some poor maths ;)

Devastate:


12 Rage, gcd
30% to Sword and Board
according to Rawr: 601 damage (incl. crits)

SnB Shield Slam:


0 Rage, gcd
10% increased BV for 10s
according to Rawr: 1713 damage (incl. crits)

Rend:


7 Rage, gcd, 15s
unskilled: 1040 damage
skilled: 1456 damage


So there is Rend on the one side and on the other Dev. and ShieldSlam. Let's say, 30% SnB means 30% Slam damage (though it does (by far) not, I know, for having no free Slam but a shortened Slam CD and one more gcd)

But even then it appears to be around 1172 damage what is less than the skilled Rend, and you even burned up 2 gcds.]
(well... forget about that. I did neither count in armor nor def-stance. but especially I did the number work not with thread what should be more important for tanks)

however... I don't see the reason why not to use it

Samshel
05-05-2009, 06:34 AM
From my point of view, when you change to battle stance to do rend you are back to 10 rage, apply rend then back to defensive stance and 10 rage again, in the time you spent doing that you could used the 2 gcd's for devastate and shield slam in case it proced, and used a couple of heroic strikes to dump the rage you would dump chaging stances. So without doing maths a couple of heroic strikes will net you more threat and I think it will net you more damage.

phaze
05-05-2009, 06:39 AM
From my point of view, when you change to battle stance to do rend you are back to 10 rage, apply rend then back to defensive stance and 10 rage again,
Rend (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47465) works in battle stance AND defensive stance.

Untalented, I don't feel Rend is worth the micro-management of watching its debuff timer and juggling another key to press. So I skip it for tanking, and just use other abilities instead. If there's a damage/threat loss, it's minor enough for me to not care. ;)

Magnuss
05-05-2009, 07:19 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/41686-rend-fail-we-so-sure.html'

TLDR: Could possibly end up with a higher damage output in the end, but only with flawless execution on fights where you are out of other practical buttons to push. Not worth it generally.

Grumdawg
05-05-2009, 07:36 AM
If youre running with a rogue who is specced into it (I think squashed is correct and it is assassination), their damage is increased whenever the mob they are attacking has a bleed effect on them. If you are in this situation, i would say its worth the rage, as you arent just doing a little more damage yourself, but are also buffing a group member. I would say in most cases your attention is better spent elsewhere. (this is just my opinion though, i would love to see some math proving/disproving it:D).

Squashed
05-05-2009, 08:22 AM
An interesting thought that just occurred to me. Prot warriors have such a tight priority list for max threat, that keeping this 15s debuff on the target with a high-uptime, juggled between rev/ss/sw & conc blow GCDs will be extremely 'taxing'.

Instead of doing this, your focus could be better spent on environment / boss abilties - not to mention it being a difficulty talent selection for any build other than focused aggression or DW prot.

Trondhjem
05-05-2009, 09:19 AM
you could say the same about conc.blow if you hadn't it. Or Shockwave.
What's the point in watching one more debuff and pressing one more key? That one ability won't debar you from watching out for boss movement.

If you can perform better, you should try. So if Rend is worth using it, I will do.

swelt
05-05-2009, 11:40 AM
If youre running with a rogue who is specced into it (I think squashed is correct and it is assassination), their damage is increased whenever the mob they are attacking has a bleed effect on them. If you are in this situation, i would say its worth the rage, as you arent just doing a little more damage yourself, but are also buffing a group member. I would say in most cases your attention is better spent elsewhere. (this is just my opinion though, i would love to see some math proving/disproving it:D).

That's not how Hunger for Blood works. The rogue only needs for their current target to have a bleed on them when they activate/refresh the ability (once per minute). This then gives the rogue the buff increasing their damage. It makes no difference whether a bleed remains active on the target after that.

Squashed
05-05-2009, 12:00 PM
you could say the same about conc.blow if you hadn't it. Or Shockwave.
What's the point in watching one more debuff and pressing one more key? That one ability won't debar you from watching out for boss movement.

If you can perform better, you should try. So if Rend is worth using it, I will do.


I commend your desire to improve your dps/tps, I feel like my tps is in a good spot and I've got enough on my plate tanking right now.

Just as a quick follow-up, there is an additional threat modifier applied to devastate, its 5% of your AP. I'm not sure what AP I usually have buffed during a raid but it certainly somethign to consider, also SS has an innate 770 additional threat. However, all this damage save a majority of rend damage is mitigated by armor.

In the end, when I did use rend, I felt like it wasn't adding enough to my tps/dps to make it worth the additional focus it took. That said, for targets that you need to 'leave' some damage on, rend will do a nice job...for example razorscale, malygos, thaddius adds, sapphiron etc.

Risky
05-05-2009, 12:06 PM
Last night on 25m General pulls, 10x of them, I used rend whenever it wasn't on the boss and it only did about 2% of my overall damage. This was with every possible raid buff. So from personal experience, I'll be taking rend off my keybinds until it's better for prot.

Muffin Man
05-05-2009, 12:22 PM
Just as a quick follow-up, there is an additional threat modifier applied to devastate, its 5% of your AP. I'm not sure what AP I usually have buffed during a raid but it certainly somethign to consider, also SS has an innate 770 additional threat. However, all this damage save a majority of rend damage is mitigated by armor.

In the end, when I did use rend, I felt like it wasn't adding enough to my tps/dps to make it worth the additional focus it took. That said, for targets that you need to 'leave' some damage on, rend will do a nice job...for example razorscale, malygos, thaddius adds, sapphiron etc.

Um, not sure I understand you right here, but Rend and DW *ignore* armor.

Also, someone can probably confirm/refute this but I believe bleed damage is unaffected by the d-stance modifier. So while Rend works out to be more damage you won't see a threat increase (probably a small decrease even).

I couldn't micro-manage rend myself, but I had an idea for the next time I try. Just throw up a rend the next cycle after you shockwave. Sure you won't have 100% uptime but we aren't Arms warriors so it's ok.

What I mean is:
SS, Rev, Dev, Shockwave -> SS, Rev, Dev, Rend
that way we're not watching the debuff timer or what not.

shiz98
05-05-2009, 04:25 PM
See the Rend section in http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/45932-bleeds-weapon-speeds-tanking.html.

This was done before defensive stance got its 5% bonus, but IIRC the theoretical difference was within that 5%.

Thrym
05-06-2009, 06:58 AM
In regards to rend as a synergy buff with rogues, I think you'll find it to be a virtual non-issue, at least if you are deep wounds spec. At current I am achieving over 95% uptime on damage over time effects on boss fights and have highest DoT uptime in the raid as it is through most encounters(yes, higher uptime than DPS warriors and warlocks), meaning that a bleed existing on the target is a foregone conclusion with this spec in the first place.

By and large the total damage achievable from rend is only slightly higher than shockwave or concussive blow at best, but will not benefit from potential critical strikes. Adding this to the lack of SnB opportunity and it isn't worth watching the debuff timer on it, in my opinion.

Kaad
05-06-2009, 07:15 AM
As far as I'm concerned... if nobody's pulling off of you, what will popping a rend on the target every once in awhile hurt?

you lose some threat you don't need to begin with?