PDA

View Full Version : Improved Demoralizing Shout



Tankasaurus
05-04-2009, 11:50 AM
I have noticed alot of tanks picking up the 5/10/56 or 8/10/53 spec for boss tanking.

I talked to my guild leader about this the other night (he is also a prot warrior) and he just laughed at the idea of having Improved Demo shout.

Can someone point me in the direction where Improved Demo has been discussed/tested on its usefulness in 3.1

-Tankasaurus

Dubzil
05-04-2009, 11:53 AM
rofl.. i'd laugh at him.. bosses in ulduar hit HARD, imp demo shout directly affects their attack power, making them hit LESS HARD.

Its 40% more AP reduction.. very good IMO.. what else are you going to put the points into? threat?

Tankasaurus
05-04-2009, 11:58 AM
Well thats what I figure. Right now I'm the 15/3/53 -2% crit with Safeguard by his recommendation for one encounter, forgot which one. I'd really like to go to a DW 15/5/51 and this 5/10/56 but I need some facts/discussions to back up the viability of Improved Demo

I like the spec honestly and havent had any threat issues on any encounter yet except for Hodir which most all tanks are going to have due to the crit/haste buff and high mobility.

I was thinking Glyph of Last Stand, Shield Wall, and Vigilance....or is Blocking still the bread and butter over Vigilance?

-Tank

hbombs
05-04-2009, 12:00 PM
Stick with blocking honestly. Consider the dps it provides beneficial to the raid :)

But yea once we are working on mimiron and general I am going to be speccing into imp demo. For the first part of ulduar I don't see it being really necessary.

A lot of good tanks are making there duel specs 15/5/51 and then a survival build. Its not a bad way to go.

Dubzil
05-04-2009, 12:02 PM
I'd definately keep blocking, but I have changed from 15/5/51 to a more survivability oriented build (including imp demo shout) I see no use for Safeguard in PVE still, pretty bad recommendation IMO.

Tankasaurus
05-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Cool, I appreciate the input.

I first saw the build off Ciderhelm and then started the thinking. I personally understand it, just need to make my case if you know what I mean.

Squashed
05-04-2009, 12:28 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42342-level-80-boss-ap.html

Essentially the above testing makes it appear that improved demo shout lowered the average damage Maexxna did by 949 . This linked OP does not state if this was pre-armor mitigation or post-armor mitigation. It appears to be against a low-armored target.

The average hit maexxna did was reduced by 949, certainly a significant amount

Ieatpugs
05-04-2009, 02:52 PM
Stick with blocking honestly. Consider the dps it provides beneficial to the raid :)

But yea once we are working on mimiron and general I am going to be speccing into imp demo. For the first part of ulduar I don't see it being really necessary.

A lot of good tanks are making there duel specs 15/5/51 and then a survival build. Its not a bad way to go.

Mimiron doesn't hit hard (6-7k), if you are going to wait for imp demo, wait until general.

Kerchunk
05-04-2009, 02:55 PM
Mimiron doesn't hit hard (6-7k), if you are going to wait for imp demo, wait until general.

After our 20th wipe on Vezax I was almost ready to Hearthstone and respec for Imp. Demo. Shout.

We downed him on our 21st go but holy shit. I've never been raked across the coals like that before. What a beast. Next time I go in there you can be damn sure I'm bringing Imp. Demo. Shout.

Inaara
05-04-2009, 03:20 PM
After our 20th wipe on Vezax I was almost ready to Hearthstone and respec for Imp. Demo. Shout.

We downed him on our 21st go but holy shit. I've never been raked across the coals like that before. What a beast. Next time I go in there you can be damn sure I'm bringing Imp. Demo. Shout.


Bring Icebound Fortitude as well, and tell him to drop my damned trinket!

brain9h
05-06-2009, 11:11 AM
When you don't know what to expect, its reasonable to spec for full survivability. Even if 5/5 imp demo shout provides few benefits, it is still a survivability talent.

Squashed
05-06-2009, 11:15 AM
Above I linked a post and stated that Maexxna did ~950 less damage per hit with imp demo shout.

Does anyone know of a test, or formula we can use to determine how much per hit difference there is between no demo shout at all on the boss, and improved demo shout?

empirical data from general kills?

Vasquez
05-07-2009, 11:46 AM
Here's my question on Imp Demo Shout: 3/5 or 5/5? I've heard both.

Dubzil
05-07-2009, 11:48 AM
5/5 all the way

Risky
05-07-2009, 11:49 AM
Dub's right. 5/5 or death.

Vasquez
05-07-2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the quick response guys! Clears that right up.

Hamburglar
05-12-2009, 12:40 PM
I specced this today and 5/5 seems to be a clear 6-7% flat physical damage reduction. Pretty significant.

Aethelas
05-12-2009, 11:46 PM
I know the improved demo shout helps. But I'd like to know how much, preferably with some math for noobs? I'll gladly see what I can do to test stuff if needed.

Fledern
05-13-2009, 12:28 AM
Sorry, i dont have numbers with me, but lets say in Naxx where stuff hits a lot less hard than ulduar, having imp demo shout is the difference between having enough rage to spam heroic strike on every white hit and spamming bloodrage at every opportunity because you have hardly enough rage to do dev/ss. It's that big a difference.

Hamburglar
05-13-2009, 06:51 AM
I don't have math but I know having 5/5 results in 6/7% reduced physical damage from a boss. It's really only useful for Ulduar though.

PhilS
05-14-2009, 12:14 AM
I don't have math but I know having 5/5 results in 6/7% reduced physical damage from a boss. It's really only useful for Ulduar though.

It's useful on every melee Boss in raiding Content! On some bosses it isn't necessary, but its useful to minimize damage taken on you!

If you can lower your damage taken per hit, you can lower the number of healers you need, which frees up raid spots for dps, which can again lower your damage taken over a boss fight!

Moontracker
05-16-2009, 05:41 AM
Every 2 AP gives the NPC 1DPS
Every 14 AP gives a player 1DPS

This means that Demo Shout is way more effective on Mobs than on other players.

bludwork
05-16-2009, 06:32 AM
just to be cleaer the 5/10/xx builds are a mitigation spec. you will not normally use this spec unless you're doing a really hard hitting boss like general vezax. I used it on others like xt-002 when I was undergeared, but not anymore. It's a viable spec if you have dual spec and it's your second spec but don't make it your main spec.

unigolyn
05-16-2009, 07:16 AM
In TBC any points past 2/5 IDS did not affect boss AP unless the boss's AP was buffed by CoR, because there's a set limit to how much boss AP can be reduced.

Has this changed?

Are the 6-7% damage reduction numbers compared to untalented Demo Shout or not Demo Shout at all? If 5/5 IDS is a 40% improvement in the effectiveness of Demo Shout, that implies that unimproved demo shout is a 10% damage reduction, which seems highly suspect.

swelt
05-16-2009, 03:50 PM
Yes, it has changed, the figures are all in this post (linked above): http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42342-level-80-boss-ap.html - It should not be any surprise that when Blizzard rationalised all the raid buffs/debuffs that they fixed it such that filling the talent gives optimum results.

Kerg
05-19-2009, 12:21 PM
The damage reduction on Maexxna was 4.5%. Very much worth it, IMO, if you are MTing Ulduar 25-man.

I have been tanking most of Ulduar with a 5/15/51 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZhi00xZMItMx0didIzsGo) build with glyphed/talented 2 min. Shield Wall and Last Stand, and it is working well for me. Threat has not been much of an issue, and my dual spec is 15/5/51 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhbZbItrx0zidIzsGo) if I ever need a threat boost.

Fenier
06-22-2009, 10:21 PM
Above I linked a post and stated that Maexxna did ~950 less damage per hit with imp demo shout.

Does anyone know of a test, or formula we can use to determine how much per hit difference there is between no demo shout at all on the boss, and improved demo shout?

empirical data from general kills?

My testing seen here (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18031053148&sid=1)

With base demo shout you will see

Variance in minimum hit - 14%
Variance in maximum hit - 10%
Average Variance of 12%

With 5 /5 Shout you will see

Variance in minimum hit - 19.6%
Variance in maximum hit - 14%
Average Variance of 16.5%

I don't have per rank breakdown but it's about a 1.1% difference in minimum hit per rank and a .8% difference in maximum or .95% average hit difference per rank.

Mookey
06-23-2009, 12:35 AM
In TBC only 2/5 was usefull, however old version of Curse of Recklessness was reducing enemy armor while increasing enemy AP. High level raiding was demanding 5/5 imp demo and lock for curse of recklesness. However in Wotlk CoR is changed and imp demo is now full working on bosses - with greatest impact on Ignis, Steelbreaker and Vezax.

Also have in mind that dps warriors usualy have that talent so it's ok to ask them aswel to keep it up. Also if druid is tanking next to you they prolly have it.

On other classes - get more info from Fenier in next post...

Fenier
06-23-2009, 01:07 AM
Also have in mind that dps warriors and feral druids (require shifting tho every 2 min) usualy have that talent so it's ok to ask them aswel to keep it up.

Demo Roar lasts 30 Seconds. Feral Aggression increases power, not duration. It's not practical for a Cat to keep shifting and breaking rotation at that low of a duration.

If you have no Bear on the boss, the effect is best kept up by a DPS Warrior, Lock or Hunter with Carrion Bird, in that order for fully talented. If no talents the order is Lock, Warrior, Bird.