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Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 07:21 AM
XtuX42laVLw

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/images/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Surge of Darkness: In this video, it's mentioned that Pain Suppression and Hand of Sacrifice can be used for a Paladin or Warrior tank to avoid kiting. We found this was risky in 25-man because he can land a hit immediately after these wear off immediately prior to the 10-second Surge of Darkness buff. To reliably use a Warrior or Paladin tank and avoid kiting, these buffs must be staggered to cover the full duration.


UI/ADDON INFORMATION:
Lore's UI (10 Man Videos): http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f211/45772-lore-s-ui.html
Ciderhelm's UI (25 Man Videos): http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f211/41095-ciderhelm-ui-information.html
Please post any questions about UI/Addon's in their respective threads and not in this thread

Xerogen
04-28-2009, 07:30 AM
Looking forward to Video, we are on this boss tonight. Be nice to know how you guys dealt with it.

Great work as always!

Squashed
04-28-2009, 07:53 AM
Last night in 10man I was able to kite effectively 90% of the time. By running out at the start of the cast, in a straight line w/Tuskar's Vitality, I was able to avoid Surge of Darkness (warrior tank).

For what its worth, I think you need pretty good anticipation & reflexes, our very good druid tank was having issues getting out in time while in bear form. Another option is to intervene for a quick speed boost.

Jorge
04-28-2009, 08:13 AM
Holy Priests have a godlike talent for that: Body and Soul
Give them cookies 'till they spec into it, you'll love it.

Beatzz
04-28-2009, 08:15 AM
cant wait!

Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 08:36 AM
Movie up and donor download will be available in just a minute.

Krenian
04-28-2009, 08:38 AM
In this video, we have also determined that a Druid > Warrior.

Cider was not happy about this. >.>

Tamarael
04-28-2009, 08:46 AM
hey guys, can anyone tell me how do l get that ui as shown in the vid.?? l am really tired of mine. It's so full.

Tnx for the incoming help:D

Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 08:47 AM
In this video, we have also determined that a Druid > Warrior.

Cider was not happy about this. >.>
Lore's video!

Xerogen
04-28-2009, 08:53 AM
Did you have a DK MT'ing for this fight? Or am i just not seeing raid frames correctly.

I play a DK tank im my guild i tanked first phase of Mimiron as it was easier for me to pop cooldowns on every Blast.

Again with this fight wouldnt a DK with 15% move speed from Unholy Aura (Specced into Unholy do it work with frost) work well for this fight also if they had to kite?

Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 09:04 AM
Death Knight and Druid do not need to kite. The fight is a lot more stable without needing to move. For this reason, run speed bonuses and shifting forms don't really have an impact on the encounter.

For kiting, Warriors probably do a little better because of Intervene, but it should be genuinely easy for both a Warrior and Paladin to quickly run away if they're watching the cast bar closely. While I was kiting I had zero problems running away even when I was unable to get a target to Intervene.

Darksend
04-28-2009, 09:18 AM
As a druid if you shift to cat form the second the cast starts it makes kiting so much easier. I have successfully tanked this boss 4 times (twice on a druid in 25 and twice on a warrior in 10 man) in 10 attempts I have gotten hit twice. Once I knew I was going to get hit and once I ran into a pit in the floor and couldn't get out of it. A few times while learning the fight I went to cat but now I find it unnecessary. I also do not have run speed to boots on either character.

If you have your camera looking at you from behind the boss as soon as you see the cast bar hit both your mouse buttons and your character will turn in that direction and start running. This will save you a good second on kiting and make intervene shifting even run speed not needed.

This is also the one fight where having a warrior or a druid tank or a DPS warrior or warlock is a must. We tried tanking this with a pally tank in 10 man, did not work. Simply got hit way to hard even with blocking 2K off every attack. I logged on my warrior tanked it, demo shout made him hit significantly less. Downed it 1st attempt on my warrior after an hour of wiping without demo.

Kojiyama
04-28-2009, 09:35 AM
We used a DK tank for this when we killed him last week and he was able to cooldown through every surge phase without any movement. It made the fight pretty stable.

On the negative side, for melee DPS (I went Arms for the fight) it becomes quite possibly the most boring fight ever created and pretty close to Patchwerk Mk II if you aren't on interrupts.

Don't think I'll be trying to tank him any time too soon, though. DK was just too good for the fight.

On the attempt we killed him on, Rogues missed a kick rotation and an armor debuff got through and our DK still had no trouble at all surviving with his backup cooldowns.

Xerogen
04-28-2009, 09:53 AM
Thanks for info on Death Knight guys, i thought it might work well with DK tanking. But meh try telling that to a Warrior tank. They dont seem to like other classes taking the spot light XD.

I guess we will try with Warrior tonight see how he goes, if not ill see how well a DK holds up against it.

Great video btw, keep up good work! Good luck with hard-modes also

Squashed
04-28-2009, 10:02 AM
What kind of cooldown is there on surge? With a glyphed shield wall, do you think its possible to just need to dodge every-other surge?

Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 10:10 AM
What kind of cooldown is there on surge? With a glyphed shield wall, do you think its possible to just need to dodge every-other surge?
1 minute, and yes.

~Luffie~
04-28-2009, 10:17 AM
What kind of cooldown is there on surge? With a glyphed shield wall, do you think its possible to just need to dodge every-other surge?

I'm also curious about this. For this encounter, we had our Holy Priest resepc Disc so we will have PS. Will a shield wall and PS+LS rotation work? I'm glyphed/Spec for SW and LS so both are on 2 minute CDs.

Ciderhelm
04-28-2009, 10:19 AM
Pain Suppression does not last the full duration of Surge. It's 2 seconds short. Since the Paladin ability also requires a GCD to get prepared, it also falls just short. You need to stagger them or assume you're going to take a 40k+ hit at the end of the Surge.

Bootrick
04-28-2009, 10:51 AM
I had no difficulty running away from Surge as a warrior tank. Our strategy (and we never got Vezax down) was to kite from were he starts to the entrance then back and forth like that. Major issue with this strategy was saronite clouds being too far away to be used. Also in order to be in range the group has less room to spread out and still be in range since he was tanked near walls. Any suggestions? Looking for positioning for kiting strategy since i'm a warrior so we cannot just icebound fortitude through each Surge.

Feydakeen
04-28-2009, 10:53 AM
Great vid as usual! Will we be getting an HD version?

Darksend
04-28-2009, 12:15 PM
"any direct healing done by prot pallies ret pallies or enhance shaman is reduced by 75% instead"

what is the distinction between them and holy pallies and resto/ele shaman is it talents they have or talents they dont have etc because I had never heard of that before this video.

Krenian
04-28-2009, 12:23 PM
Lore's video!

OICWUTUDIDTHARE!

Should of watched the video before commenting. >.<

Man▀earpig
04-28-2009, 12:28 PM
Halp, I don't have to ever kite him. HALP

Fearonir
04-28-2009, 02:08 PM
I just wanted to mention that despite what Lore says in the video(s), melee can benefit from Shadow Crash puddles if they are within range of the boss. I was standing in them on our latest General Vezax attempts (a Ret Paladin: Alcarius on Garithos) and was getting 13 to 15k judgement crits. Our enhancement shaman was getting 14k Lightning Bolt crits when he used his Maelstrom stacks and our Blood DK was getting 7-8k Death Coil crits.

I would not recommend going out of your way to get these buffs however.

Lore
04-28-2009, 02:08 PM
"any direct healing done by prot pallies ret pallies or enhance shaman is reduced by 75% instead"

what is the distinction between them and holy pallies and resto/ele shaman is it talents they have or talents they dont have etc because I had never heard of that before this video.

Yes.

Lore
04-28-2009, 02:10 PM
Pain Suppression does not last the full duration of Surge. It's 2 seconds short. Since the Paladin ability also requires a GCD to get prepared, it also falls just short. You need to stagger them or assume you're going to take a 40k+ hit at the end of the Surge.

The cast on Surge of Darkness is long enough that the Pally can put up Hand of Sac first and then DS after. The bigger problem is that they can only do this every 5 minutes.

potatomasherjim
04-28-2009, 02:23 PM
Hey!
I'm doubting shadowfiend and hymn of hope work as they weren't mentioned in the video, but does anyone know if the JC trinket Figuring: Sapphire Owl works in this fight?

Kojiyama
04-28-2009, 02:59 PM
Hey!
I'm doubting shadowfiend and hymn of hope work as they weren't mentioned in the video, but does anyone know if the JC trinket Figuring: Sapphire Owl works in this fight?

Our Priest commented that Hymn of Hope appeared to work. Shadowfiend does not.

Magnarosh
04-28-2009, 03:34 PM
i have a concern not mentioned in the video and very tank related, which is threat.

last night we got our first attempts in on General 10man and there were some problems from casters (namely our moonkin). i'm assuming the only real solution is to tricks/misdirect every cooldown and to have DPS pace themselves, but i thought maybe someone could add some input for me.

On one attempt our moonkin even waited completely until the first shadow crash, applied dots and then pulled aggro in 2 starfire crits for 30k+ each.

Lore
04-28-2009, 04:03 PM
Our Priest commented that Hymn of Hope appeared to work. Shadowfiend does not.

Our priests said it doesn't. As far as I'm aware, nothing but the four abilities I mentioned in the video work.

Lore
04-28-2009, 04:03 PM
i have a concern not mentioned in the video and very tank related, which is threat.

last night we got our first attempts in on General 10man and there were some problems from casters (namely our moonkin). i'm assuming the only real solution is to tricks/misdirect every cooldown and to have DPS pace themselves, but i thought maybe someone could add some input for me.

On one attempt our moonkin even waited completely until the first shadow crash, applied dots and then pulled aggro in 2 starfire crits for 30k+ each.

DPS does need to be careful. It's a mana endurance fight, not a DPS race.

LÚonin
04-28-2009, 04:21 PM
Our priests said it doesn't. As far as I'm aware, nothing but the four abilities I mentioned in the video work.

We found that Hymm of Hope does work. Shadowfiend does not

Deekaye
04-28-2009, 08:13 PM
Lore what player frame UI do you use? Ive looked at Xperl and Pitbull and neither have that 3d player frame for self or bosses that sits on the top like that. Id love to use it, what's it called?

ttocs
04-28-2009, 09:59 PM
It's pitbull.

Enable the portrait module, set it to 3D portrait, and set the orientation to Center. You can adjust the size accordingly.

gabbu
04-29-2009, 04:07 AM
I don't mean to derail this thread but I play a DK tank(sorta retired now) too along with a warrior tank and I dont know if I heard wrong but I thought he said Icebound Fortitude is a 50% damage reduction but it actually is 20%(correct me if I am wrong its been a while since I have played DK).

I take this as it was just a mistake, so does it mean 20% reduction due IBF is enough for the encounter.

Also can a warrior with mitigation spec with glyphed Shield Wall and Last Stand do it? Because with that setup the warrior also has 1 min CD's?

tPaste
04-29-2009, 07:12 AM
We got Vezax to 10% last week in 10-man (only 2 attempts on 25), and the biggest problem I kept hearing about from my healers is the green puddles not always working. Sometimes they would stand in them and they wouldn't tick...and even exiting and re-entering, on occasion, wouldn't help...anyone else experience this?

Squashed
04-29-2009, 08:08 AM
tPaste, we had one priest also comment to this degree. Not sure what the mechanic is behind this.

plitschplatsch
04-29-2009, 09:17 AM
Hymn of Hope has two components: one temporarily increases your mana, one regenerates mana.
The first part works, the second doesn't. You can get one free spell or two with the first part which still might matter on this fight.

Proximity
04-29-2009, 10:52 AM
I don't mean to derail this thread but I play a DK tank(sorta retired now) too along with a warrior tank and I dont know if I heard wrong but I thought he said Icebound Fortitude is a 50% damage reduction but it actually is 20%(correct me if I am wrong its been a while since I have played DK).

I take this as it was just a mistake, so does it mean 20% reduction due IBF is enough for the encounter.

Also can a warrior with mitigation spec with glyphed Shield Wall and Last Stand do it? Because with that setup the warrior also has 1 min CD's?

Icebound Fortitude is 20% before Defense skill is factored in. At 540 defense, the reduction is around 40%, and with the glyph of Icebound Fort, which I suggest any DK tank to get, adds another 10%, though the wording on it does not make it seem like it.

Lore
04-29-2009, 11:16 AM
Icebound Fortitude is 20% before Defense skill is factored in. At 540 defense, the reduction is around 40%, and with the glyph of Icebound Fort, which I suggest any DK tank to get, adds another 10%, though the wording on it does not make it seem like it.

Yeah, I didn't want to go into full explanation of the details in the video, but it ends up being at or a little over 50% damage reduction in normal tanking gear.

Kozuki
04-29-2009, 01:31 PM
How many healers were used in this kill?

gabbu
04-30-2009, 03:41 AM
Icebound Fortitude is 20% before Defense skill is factored in. At 540 defense, the reduction is around 40%, and with the glyph of Icebound Fort, which I suggest any DK tank to get, adds another 10%, though the wording on it does not make it seem like it.

Thanks Lore and Proximity.

Thats leaves me to my second question,

Also can a warrior with mitigation spec with glyphed Shield Wall and Last Stand do it? Because with that setup the warrior also has 1 min CD's?

Vizarde
04-30-2009, 07:34 PM
Does a Shamans Mana Spring totem count towards this as not taking affect because it is MP5? Also I'm glad to hear that a DK or a Druid is nice to tank this! ^_^

Ciderhelm
04-30-2009, 07:39 PM
FYI I tanked this tonight alternating Shield Wall and Last Stand.

Krenian
04-30-2009, 07:45 PM
I say he got lucky. Others would say he has skill.

I prefer my answer.

Typhyr
05-01-2009, 01:40 AM
Does a shadowpriests Vampiric Embrace & Vampiric Touch spell help in this encounter?

gabbu
05-01-2009, 03:34 AM
FYI I tanked this tonight alternating Shield Wall and Last Stand.

Thanks wanted to hear this. :D

gabbu
05-01-2009, 10:55 AM
Does a shadowpriests Vampiric Embrace & Vampiric Touch spell help in this encounter?

SPriest VT puts up REPLENISHMENT which as per the video does not work, I assume there is no affect on health genearation effects so they should work. This mean VE should work.

Rimklove
05-01-2009, 11:00 AM
Heeey...

so i watched the video.. read some strats.. havnt actually attempted him yet, going for our first attempts tomorrow and i was curious if anyone had an idea of his aura also removes the effect of clearcasting?

Thanks

Nerruse
05-01-2009, 11:05 AM
Clearcasting is not affected. Also be aware lifebloom is still restoring the partial mana cost. Could be interesting with shadow crashes if they'd let me near the damn thing.

Tonylicious
05-01-2009, 11:05 AM
FYI I tanked this tonight alternating Shield Wall and Last Stand.

How hard was he hitting you? I assumed LS would not be enough given that he should be hitting for ~50k a swing so was having my off-spec DK tank him.

Were you snagging external CDs at all? Or were SB/LS/trinket enough to keep you going? Just healers have to be ready to do little else than heal you?

Inaara
05-01-2009, 11:22 AM
All I have to say is..... DK tanks rule. I was actually really worried about threat before going in there but DPS was never even close to pulling off.

ttocs
05-01-2009, 03:12 PM
Yeah, in the video there, when I noticed mana bars were emptying (>40% or so), I was like "I'm switching to Death Strike, watch threat".. then as I looked at omen, Lore was like "You've got a huge threat lead, no one's going to pass you". I had like 30-40% at least.

Threat's only an issue for the first 30 seconds max, then it's easy from there. Pretty much past that point, if I have an FU up and I'm not at full health I DS.

Aleesa
05-01-2009, 03:16 PM
My guild and i were having some attempts on General Earlier tonight...

And we seemed to have a problem with the surge of darkness, the problem is that General's Movement speed isnt getting lowered or anything.

My Question is are someone else having these troubles?

Dear regards: Aleesa of Deathwing.

Inaara
05-01-2009, 03:34 PM
Yeah, in the video there, when I noticed mana bars were emptying (>40% or so), I was like "I'm switching to Death Strike, watch threat".. then as I looked at omen, Lore was like "You've got a huge threat lead, no one's going to pass you". I had like 30-40% at least.

Threat's only an issue for the first 30 seconds max, then it's easy from there. Pretty much past that point, if I have an FU up and I'm not at full health I DS.


What were you tanking as Ttocs? For the pull I deathchilled a HB followed by BB-BB-OB-ERW-OB-OB-OB while taking the Rime procs when they popped and FS's when KM was up. Gave a huge beginning threat boost that just pulled completely away from the DPS' threat. I'm just glad for IBF lol... lets me be the lazy stand still tank I love to be.

Sharlin
05-01-2009, 05:27 PM
Great vid. Just one thing. How long is it that his surge of darkness last? Becouse a Prot paladin with Glyph of Salvation could help for a prot pally to tank this encounter without any kiting. Unless ofcourse the threat becomes an issue. And an if someone has already mentioned it well then I didn't notice it. (if its not more then 10 secs <.<)

And for those that dont know Glyph of Salvation reduces damage taken by 20% for 10 sec... (just hoping I remember it right now XD)

Edit: God I am blind. It says the duration in the post with the movies <.<

Mindy
05-01-2009, 07:03 PM
My guild and i were having some attempts on General Earlier tonight...

And we seemed to have a problem with the surge of darkness, the problem is that General's Movement speed isnt getting lowered or anything.

My Question is are someone else having these troubles?

Dear regards: Aleesa of Deathwing.

The tank has to max range Vezax and run out (not backpeddle) ASAP once Surge of Darkness is casting. He can melee a bit outside his targetting box, and you'll need that short head start.

ttocs
05-01-2009, 11:12 PM
What were you tanking as Ttocs? For the pull I deathchilled a HB followed by BB-BB-OB-ERW-OB-OB-OB while taking the Rime procs when they popped and FS's when KM was up. Gave a huge beginning threat boost that just pulled completely away from the DPS' threat. I'm just glad for IBF lol... lets me be the lazy stand still tank I love to be.

I was frost, but I typically don't run with Glyph of HB. The only one that typically gives me an issue that early in the fight is the FF mage, and with the right procs he can ride me at the beginning of a fight.

Though I don't ERW enough at the beginning of a fight. I have to rework my keybinds, something I'm reluctant to do during progression.

Nuke
05-02-2009, 07:06 AM
We downed him last night. Mana issues were rough but we did get through it. With running though we managed to just kite him. He gave us issues only if he didn't cast a shadow crash or something else which stops him from running momentarily. Anytime he would not do this we would baby spice him to reduce his size. When he does surge his run speed is decreased but his size is increased and i think thats why its a problem sometimes. If your quick enough to run back you can baby spice him and his reach is alot smaller. Kinda funny something cosmetic helped us with the kill.

Faylynn
05-03-2009, 09:05 AM
I really love the Unit Frame mod you use for your character frame and Enemy frame. Could you please tell me which mod this is? Thanks, and keep up the great work on the videos!

breaklance
05-03-2009, 11:51 AM
So this video is in 10man, you found the mini-enrages to be that significant ehh. Thats unfortunate. We've primarily been using 2 warriors and a paladin for 10 progression. Our group is pretty good and been progressing steadily through the week. We'll have tonight and tomorrow to try to down mimiron and general.

I would think it be easy to kite this guy as a warrior. Just have a designated Intervene, macro it, and run.

We primarily run with 3 healers 2 tanks, then dps alternates often between at either 3 melee or ranged then 2 of the latter.

So no mana cooldowns can be provided, but what of trinket effects, and Improved Water Sheild or other proc for X mana effects.

Good idea with the babyspice ill keep it in mind, the mt tends to have a shitty computer and thusly low raid frames.

Other problem i predict for my group is the interupts :S. For iron council despite having a enh shaman, and 2 rogues, the resto shaman baby sat the dwarf for interupts(with the warrior tank also doing interupts).

breaklance
05-03-2009, 12:01 PM
I really love the Unit Frame mod you use for your character frame and Enemy frame. Could you please tell me which mod this is? Thanks, and keep up the great work on the videos!


looks like elkano buff bars, grid, bartender and Archud2 I think. i had the a similiar ui before but my wtf and addon folders got wiped and never remembered what it was.

i know archud is the health, mana, and other bars circling the player center screen. if its not that id say try eepanels2

Johnyfive
05-03-2009, 12:11 PM
We got Vezax to 10% last week in 10-man (only 2 attempts on 25), and the biggest problem I kept hearing about from my healers is the green puddles not always working. Sometimes they would stand in them and they wouldn't tick...and even exiting and re-entering, on occasion, wouldn't help...anyone else experience this?

I ran the ten man version last night, we found 2 things that might apply to this problem:

The green puddles have a buggy way of despawning, they disappear entirely, then reappear for a couple seconds in the same spot but do not actually exist or apply the mana return or debuff. People standing in the from the beginning had less problems, but also had a second complaint:

They were getting the de/buff but not the mana. It happened to me, and it coincided with a partial resist of the shadow damage's final tick. We removed shadow resist and MotW and stopped having this problem.

I don't know if that's how the mechanic is intended to work, but all the shadow damage seems to be avoidable or controllable so it didn't change the pace of healing much, if at all.

There was another comment about mana spring totem, which under the hood is basically the same buff as BoW so we didn't try to use it after watching Lore's vid, so I can't confirm whether it does. But for virtually no mana you get 200-300 health per tick per group from the hance/ele shams, and 400-500 from the resto shams. Over a 9 or so minute fight the healing load can be reduced quite a bit by not having to heal the majority of the splash damage in those groups, and you can double up shaman in groups that are just getting punished for some reason if you need to.

Johnyfive
05-03-2009, 12:15 PM
So no mana cooldowns can be provided, but what of trinket effects, and Improved Water Sheild or other proc for X mana effects.

Improved water shield functions to return mana. Meta gems/tailoring embroidery do not return mana -- "Immune" displays when these functions trigger.

Petzo
05-03-2009, 03:02 PM
Hi,
i tanked this fight as a warrior, having problems getting away 100% of the times when he uses his surge ability we had someone stand behind me right before the surge and i intercepted on him when he begun casting. This gave healers a bit breething time and was no big deal "chaos wise".
And even when i did not react within the first second or so the ~30 yrds of intercept gave enough room so it was always sure i got away.

Soraan
05-03-2009, 10:41 PM
My 10man group has been getting to Vezax for two weeks now, but we cannot seem to get past him before the reset, so...

I have a question that I can't really seem to find the answer to, or people I ask seem to give me different answers.

How many Saronite Vapors spawn during the fight? Is there a limit or do they just stop spawning at 30%? I know the hard mode is leaving up 8 Vapors then the extra add spawns from that, but are there ONLY 8 vapors total over the course of the fight?

I'm not sure how often the vapors spawn, so if it's once per minute, that would mean a max of 10 was possible for any given fight (due to the enrage timer being 10mins).

Any help would be appreciated. :(

Blackmambism
05-03-2009, 11:08 PM
only 8 vapors spawn throughout the entire fight. so you have to use them wisely. Might be worth making a note of that in your video? unless you did, and i just don't remember it :)

Pruke
05-04-2009, 07:42 AM
I am not sure this has been covered in this post somewhere else but here goes.

For those of you tanks having an issue getting away from the boss there is a rather simple way to get it done that doesnt rely on anyone but you and is not dependent on the tank class.

While tanking General move back until you are at your max melee range. This is an area bigger then the targeting circle by a little bit. Every 65 seconds he is going to begin to cast so either use a timer or watch the enrage timer and calculate the time. As soon as he starts to cast his surge spin 180 degrees and run. You will have plenty of room.

That is all that is required however if you are still having problems then it's really your fault. But here are some other things that can be done if you need extra help.

Put run speed to your boots.

Have a holy priest spec for the sheild to increase your run speed while shielded and cast it on you as soon as he starts to cast Surge.

Darksend
05-04-2009, 08:25 AM
I am still not sure how not moving him is any advantadge.

We tried it last night with me not kiting and 1shot it but that is nothing new as we 1shot it last week as well with kiting.

It seemed like every single cloud just stayed in melee range of him and never went towards either caster group.

Personally I still prefer kiting but if someone could please outline the advantages of not kiting it would be greatly appreciated.

Squashed
05-04-2009, 08:29 AM
I would guess that kiting would lead to range issues for healers / casters.

We've also had issues with missing interrupts on Vezax - once his buff wears off he tears ass off to the tank, leaving melee in the dust, sometimes unable to get close enough to interupt in time (if tank missed / didn't have interrupt going)

Darksend
05-04-2009, 08:33 AM
Yea, that is the only thing that is a problem with kiting, my guilds enh shaman is pretty much the biggest downy clowny in the world and never interrupts. This is the only part of the fight that seemed more stable while everything else actually seemed more chaotic.

With a decent enh shaman or mage to ranged interupt I prefer kiting.

bludwork
05-04-2009, 08:34 AM
Imo without kiting he's nothing more than a glorified tank and spank mob. We had maybe 4 attempts last night on him before he was dead, I was adamant on not kiting him while everyone said I should. Imo it's way easier to stand in one spot because you eliminate interrupt issues, out of range issues, healing issues and control the fight from beginning to end with a cooldown and interrupt rotation plus your dps can just stand and nuke.

A prot warrior with a 5/15 spec with glyphed laststand+shield wall tank him without external cooldowns and kiting.

gabbu
05-05-2009, 03:58 AM
I really love the Unit Frame mod you use for your character frame and Enemy frame. Could you please tell me which mod this is? Thanks, and keep up the great work on the videos!

The unit frame mod is "pitbull" with portrait set to Center

Here is a link to Lore's UI

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f211/45772-lore-s-ui.html

Roarc
05-05-2009, 04:47 AM
I've posted a 25 man Main Tank Video (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f214/49670-general-vezax-kill-umbrage-movie.html#post220252) of our kill last night. It's got some surprises in it as well so enjoy :D

There isn't a huge issue for a Warrior to Main-Tank this boss. I would very much recommend anyone that does it to spec for the 2 min Shield Wall and Last Stand however. You take a serious beating and healers need all the breathing room they can get! We chose to kite since he does such insane damage with his buff up and relieving the MT healers for 10 seconds every minute of the fight is very mana-saving over the 6-8 minute fight.

Regards
Roarc (formerly Thugs)

Nyel
05-05-2009, 07:50 AM
Great video!
I just have a quick question...

Does the OOC 5sec rule mana regen apply in this fight?
Or is it useless to do a healer rotation?

Squashed
05-05-2009, 08:28 AM
OO5SR does NOT apply to this fight.

HOWEVER, it is very important to do healer rotations. In our 10man group with 3 healers, no more than 1 healer was allowed to setup in a vapor at a time during this they were supposed to heal themselves as well, this allowed them to focus on not dying, and 2 healers on the tank during this shortish period was successful.

We also found it beneficial to ONLY break the vapors when someone was going to stand in it, the attempt directly preceding our first kill we thought unlimited vapors would spawn so we killed them without remorse - truth is ONLY 8 spawn, so they need to be used sparingly / when necessary.

Elanir
05-06-2009, 06:24 AM
Nice video, as always! :o)

What is the addon in the bottom right corner called? The one tracking incoming or outgoing dmg, with the texts "Player" and "Target".

I've seen it in other UI screenshots too, but never found the addon itself.

Best regards
Thomas

Roarc
05-06-2009, 06:37 AM
Do people actually do this fight stationary even in 25 man (i.e. with out kiting)? His damage output is quite insane there. Our first kill we chose to kite him and did so with me (protection warrior). I was using CD's at "oh shit" moments (which isn't uncommon in this fight I can add).

Regards
Roarc

Kardis
05-06-2009, 01:18 PM
Question on the vapors. Can DKs deathgrip them to certain locations similar to malygos?

Don't remember seeing this in the thread or the video but wanted to be certain as my guild is just starting on this guy and was asked this (only been on boss for 1 night and only for 1 hr and wasn't not present at time of attempts).

BlazeDale
05-06-2009, 01:24 PM
Question on the vapors. Can DKs deathgrip them to certain locations similar to malygos?



Yes they can.

Crossied
05-07-2009, 11:14 AM
hey guys, can anyone tell me how do l get that ui as shown in the vid.?? l am really tired of mine. It's so full.

Tnx for the incoming help:D


I was actually wodering this too. I noticed that you have more area on your screen and it looks a lot more organized. I raid quite a bit and i'm a dk(blood) tank so the extra screen space is nice. I wasn't sure if all that was a UI or just a ui with addons as well. Seen that you have Dhud and Grid....or something that looks a lot like it. Just keep me posted on what you use I wouldn't mind trying it. Thank you for all your time and effort. I love this site btw.

Darkblight
05-07-2009, 01:48 PM
and lol at us for using a warrior almost exclusively to tank vezax

Demgar
05-09-2009, 03:46 AM
An interesting gambit might be to use a ranged taunt - even something like a hunter's distracting shot to assist the kite. As he starts casting, run him off with a ranged, then have the tank bring him back into place.

Wozniakk
05-09-2009, 04:14 AM
An interesting gambit might be to use a ranged taunt - even something like a hunter's distracting shot to assist the kite. As he starts casting, run him off with a ranged, then have the tank bring him back into place.

General Vezax is immune to all taunts.

Edit: We have a priest with the speed boost on PW:S shield the tank as the cast happens.

Kazeyonoma
05-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Any chance of a 25 man version?

Ciderhelm
05-11-2009, 09:11 AM
Any chance of a 25 man version?
There's no notable difference between the 10 and 25-man.

Lore
05-11-2009, 10:11 AM
There's no notable difference between the 10 and 25-man.

I'm pretty sure it's actually easier in 25-man, heh.

Kazeyonoma
05-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Quick questions then I guess, 7 healer fight? My guild loves using the videos here, but they get frustrated when it's only 10mans. If it is really exactly the same between 10 and 25 man, than it's just a matter of making sure we bring the right raid makeup for it. I'll be sure to let my RL know.

Ciderhelm
05-11-2009, 12:03 PM
The number of healers that get you through every encounter up to that point are fine for that encounter as well.

With the exception of Mimiron, which we stated we'll have a 25-man addendum for, any current encounter without a 25-man video is an encounter that has no noticeable differences between 10 and 25-man. Time we spend making redundant, unnecessary videos is time we spend not working on something else that is actually helpful.

Kazeyonoma
05-11-2009, 12:59 PM
I guess since I'm not there on their first progression kills I can't say exactly, but we had a lot of trouble with Thorim because we ended up having to basically throw ALL of our dps into the hallway, and leave very little in the arena as opposed to the suggested 7 dps or so. For the most part the videos have been fine good to us, I think they're just more worried about Vezax because we haven't even stepped foot in it yet.

Lore
05-11-2009, 01:28 PM
I guess since I'm not there on their first progression kills I can't say exactly, but we had a lot of trouble with Thorim because we ended up having to basically throw ALL of our dps into the hallway, and leave very little in the arena as opposed to the suggested 7 dps or so. For the most part the videos have been fine good to us, I think they're just more worried about Vezax because we haven't even stepped foot in it yet.

The people you left in the arena must be gods. DPS requirement is higher there than in the hallway.

shez
05-12-2009, 09:13 AM
I find it easier (for the whole raid) if i just tank through the surge, using shield wall and last stand alternatively.

For the first 10 or so attempts i kited with intervene, we never get the boss down to 40% because i kept dying (just normal hit, never got hit during surge)

Then we tried tanking through surges.... we managed to get it down to 1% (and wiped, QQ) and 10 - 20% ish on the other attempts.

Not kiting makes it easier for the melee and also easier for casters to position themselves.

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2009, 09:38 AM
we're using our DK to tank him, just blowing cooldowns on surge, with an alternating pair of 2 interrupts (4 of us total, 2 and 2, to make sure someone doesn't miss it). Never realized how amazingly hard/annoying/terrible it is to be Arms and be on an interrupt rotation... TERRIBLE.

i think best attempt last night was 38%.

Ciderhelm
05-12-2009, 09:44 AM
Yeah you really don't want to have an Arms Warrior doing interrupts unless there's just no other alternative.

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2009, 09:46 AM
we have a fury warrior/rogue/rogue/arms warrior, sometimes we have a second fury warrior, but normally that means 1 less rogue. =T So no matter what, it looks like i'm gonna be in there interrupting..

Muffin Man
05-12-2009, 03:15 PM
Um, why do you need to interrupt then? That's 3 interrupts not counting the tank (you said DK? he can interrupt too). I guess if he's excused from the rotation you'd need a 4th interrupter...

Also, if you have a mage/shammy they can interrupt too... but I can understand they might want to save mana and resto shammies probably have other things to worry about =p. I'd imagine they'd still have an easier time of it than you would though.

Kazeyonoma
05-12-2009, 03:56 PM
i'm sure we'll tighten up the interrupts as we get better at it, but for purely our new attempts we need those to be interrupt at all costs, so we have 2 guys interrupt on top of each other to make sure. also the first fury warrior and one of the rogues are from australia, so they have latency issues. go figure.

Inaara
05-12-2009, 04:04 PM
Tank should be maximizing threat/DPS and keeping a close eye on health to pop CD's. Although the tank can interrupt, it doesn't mean the tank should be interrupting.

huhcio
05-13-2009, 09:04 AM
hez, im desperated for some healer advices )caus i as a tank dont know crap about that), hers the setup we run
2 tanks, warrior and a paladin
3 healers, last night they were: Holy priest, Holy Paladin, Resto shaman
5 "random" DPS,

it turned out that i (pala tank) tank the boss caus our warrior was dying quite fast, however a aroud 50% i tend to die due to healers being oom... what the crap? so, please, please write me what to quote to them :P

PS: we _dont_ kite him, as when we did the healers ran oom even faster o.o

shez
05-17-2009, 08:06 AM
Got our first kill in 25man tonight...

does anyone find that general moves faster in 25man than 10man during surge, i've noticed this after 2 weeks of 10 and 25man attempts

In 10man i can just run away even backstepping without getting hit, but in 25, i had to use intervene, boss was runnign at full speed melee noticed the faster run speed in 25man too (were chasing it for interupt).

bludwork
05-17-2009, 08:13 AM
I heard it has something to do with his hitbox? has anyone tried babyspice to see if it helps?

shez
05-17-2009, 08:23 AM
nah i had no problem kiting it with intervene (though everyone prefer me just tanking through with CDs after a few attempts), just wondering whether its meant to be like this or bugged? or some other reasons that 10man is diff from 25man.

Roarc
05-17-2009, 08:56 AM
General Vezax seems far easier in 10 man compared to 25 man from my experience given this is me tanking in 10 and 25 man gear of course. As someone noted he also seemed easier to kite in 10 man, not sure if that is a bug or a feature to make him less class dependant (i.e. any tank class that can run can tank him with ease).

Zoal
05-17-2009, 08:07 PM
Tried him for the first time tonight, not very good attempts so far. I was kiting, do not read any strats till after we attempt a boss. I am assume you have to glyph Shield Wall and Last Stand for not kiting as a warrior to be viable? (assume you dont use other class cooldowns to augment). Is just a plain Last Stand enough to cover the damage? Healers just need to pick it up?

For positioning, You have the healers equally spread out in an arc along with the DPS so you dont share the Life drain as easily?

shez
05-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Tried him for the first time tonight, not very good attempts so far. I was kiting, do not read any strats till after we attempt a boss. I am assume you have to glyph Shield Wall and Last Stand for not kiting as a warrior to be viable? (assume you dont use other class cooldowns to augment). Is just a plain Last Stand enough to cover the damage? Healers just need to pick it up?

For positioning, You have the healers equally spread out in an arc along with the DPS so you dont share the Life drain as easily?

I was using a spec with imp discipline, glyph of shield wall and last stand (2min sw and ls), I use them alternatively, + pally hos / gs /ps with last stand

so it goes
1. ls + hos
2. sw
3. ls + hos
4. sw
5. ls + gs
6. sw
and so on....

You can survive with shield wall only but it gets close sometimes (since its a 45k ish hit, and i have around 53k hp with last stand, if you have spare external cd.. you should use it.

sw cd comes close to surge cd sometimes its good to have a back up (closest 1 i had was it came off cd when its was casting surge)

p.s there are posts about this a few pages back :p

Ray
05-18-2009, 05:52 AM
For 25 mans:

I was reading other strats and they said to put the healers in melee range. Has anyone else done this? We were doing out attempts last night but one problem was when we DGd a could close to the boss, the healers would step out of melee to take the cloud and then would be shadow crashed.

Would it be easier to just separate the ranged into 2 groups and stick healers at range?

Also, Cider, did you use any other CDs coupled with your glyphed SW? ie, trinket, HoS, SB, etc..

Crossied
05-18-2009, 07:46 AM
we're using our DK to tank him, just blowing cooldowns on surge, with an alternating pair of 2 interrupts (4 of us total, 2 and 2, to make sure someone doesn't miss it). Never realized how amazingly hard/annoying/terrible it is to be Arms and be on an interrupt rotation... TERRIBLE.

i think best attempt last night was 38%.


I tank as a DK myself and I just save enough runic power to use my mindfreeze. I havn't done this fight yet but on KT in Naxx I do all the interupts. I find it pretty easy because my interupt isn't on a global CD. The CD is only 10 seconds too. I just use my keybindings(i.e. numbers) to keep my rotation and use my mouse to click the interupt. Try haveing the DK tank do that....or any dk in the raid.

Hamburglar
05-18-2009, 07:51 AM
You can tank this guy through enrages as a warrior w/ imp disciplines and proper glyphs, but here are some key things:

-Parry hastes are the #1 tank killer. If you can, cut out a bit of stamina to push them off the table.

-Stress to your healers to heal from max range and avoid the shadow crash.

Every wipe I've ever had on this guy have been because of these things.

bludwork
05-18-2009, 07:53 AM
For 25 mans:

I was reading other strats and they said to put the healers in melee range. Has anyone else done this? We were doing out attempts last night but one problem was when we DGd a could close to the boss, the healers would step out of melee to take the cloud and then would be shadow crashed.

Would it be easier to just separate the ranged into 2 groups and stick healers at range?

Also, Cider, did you use any other CDs coupled with your glyphed SW? ie, trinket, HoS, SB, etc..

We use the healers in 2 grps on opposite sides strat. I think the melee range thing would be easier but nobody wanted to try it this week because our previous strat worked so why change it. Imo it would make the fight much easier, there's just some element of resistance to standing close to a scary boss :)

Ray
05-18-2009, 12:22 PM
With mark of the faceless and shadow crash, do they look for a ranged target first? (ie, if there is someone at range close enough it will target them before targeting a melee person, but if you stacked everyone in melee it would hit melee) I noticed in the video that not one of those abilities had to be dodged by the melee. Anyone have anything on this? Thanks

Talaris
05-19-2009, 10:32 AM
Does anyone know if priest abilities like shadow fiend or dispursion work to regain mana in this fight on 10 or 25m? it wasnt talked about and we are getting very close to this boss in 10m and wouldnt wanna bother useing either if they dont work

huhcio
05-19-2009, 06:46 PM
no they dont, only prot paladins Mana from friendly heals and something buggy going on with imp water shield- thats all.
edit: retri palas 10% base mana from judgement, but only on himself (as instant cast, the part buff does NOT work)

PS: Still need tips, or shall i say a Guideline from a healers PoV on this fight.

Deekaye
05-23-2009, 08:07 AM
The number of healers that get you through every encounter up to that point are fine for that encounter as well.

With the exception of Mimiron, which we stated we'll have a 25-man addendum for, any current encounter without a 25-man video is an encounter that has no noticeable differences between 10 and 25-man. Time we spend making redundant, unnecessary videos is time we spend not working on something else that is actually helpful.

You say there is no notable difference between 10 man and 25 but on 25 we are having serious issues with the Faceless debuff. It seems like we can get away from each other on 10 man, but on 25 if we attempt to stack on the shadow crash it seems like when he casts faceless he gets 3-4% back before we can even get to the 15yd range. Any advice on this?

Nexmilitis
05-23-2009, 03:48 PM
You say there is no notable difference between 10 man and 25 but on 25 we are having serious issues with the Faceless debuff. It seems like we can get away from each other on 10 man, but on 25 if we attempt to stack on the shadow crash it seems like when he casts faceless he gets 3-4% back before we can even get to the 15yd range. Any advice on this?

I tank this for my guild. Avoiding the kiting, i pop IBF, + 2 Trinkets first Surge, and then IBF + VB + trinket (1min cd) to mitigate most of the hits. Surge of darkness is on a min cd so IBF is ready every time surge is inc. rinse and repeat the rotations till he's down.

(in reply to quote above) For shadow crashes, you can receive the buff at the very edges of the shadow crash areas. if you stack in the middle then it will be difficult to get away. Stay to the edges and a strafe right or left should put you out of range quickly.

Lyco
05-24-2009, 02:01 AM
You can also put your healers on melee range. This way they'll never have to deal with the ShadowCrash ( unless they're going to regen mana offcourse )

Pruke
05-24-2009, 05:19 AM
To answer some questions and confirm another for 25-man tanking.

I'm a warrior, I tank this with 2 min SW/LS our cool down rotation goes like this.

1st surge - Pain Suppression
2nd surge- Shield Wall
3rd surge- Hand of Salvation
4th surge- Last stand and dodge trinkets
Then the cycle repeats 1-4 again.

Our healers are in 2 groups of 3. The group currently healing the MT is in melee range so they do not have to worry about moving. The healers rotate out after every surge. Every couple surges (or if needed earlier) a healer breaks a cloud and they stand in it to regen there mana. The clouds are brought low by a prot paladin (although anyone can do this just his dps is the lowest so thats what he does). If for some reason (this is rare but has happened) none of the clouds are near the boss for the healer group they will ask a DK to death grip one closer to the raid.

The kite strategy is a great strategy for us the tank and burn was just easier.

Deekaye
05-24-2009, 06:52 PM
We have been putting the healers in melee range, and since we have a DK tank we don't move Vezax. I pull the saronite into the melee to get the healers the mana... the only problem we seem to be having is just the rediculous amount of health that Vezax is getting back from Faceless. Is it just our ranged failing or is there something that we can do to mitigate this?

Novol
05-25-2009, 08:52 PM
i have a interesting question has anyone found out if Improved Icy Talons buff actualy work during this fight?

Martie
05-25-2009, 09:57 PM
You can tank this guy through enrages as a warrior w/ imp disciplines and proper glyphs, but here are some key things:

-Parry hastes are the #1 tank killer. If you can, cut out a bit of stamina to push them off the table.

-Stress to your healers to heal from max range and avoid the shadow crash.

Every wipe I've ever had on this guy have been because of these things.
Wait, what?
How the hell would you push parry off the table? Best you can do is reduce the bosses chance to parry, and to remove it completely, you need more expertise then cutting a bit of stamina can give you.

Healers get hit by shadow crash because the healers bunch up on a green puddle. Make sure the healers know to spread around the edge of the green puddle so they won't all get hit by the shadow crash, and the green puddle won't be completely covered - healing from max range is a dream, you heal where you happen to stand after a green puddle is gone.

Mookey
05-26-2009, 12:00 AM
I've just tested this yesterday:

With 20 expertise I have 35K hp
With 49 expertise I have ~32K hp

Worst part of tradeoff is monarch crab for Mark of Norganon.

Montblanc
05-26-2009, 03:27 AM
My guild downed the 10 man version of this boss last night. We ran without a priest or paladin for buffs due to rl commitments elsewhere. (so no external cooldowns available and considerably less health)

However, I was able to tank this as a Warrior without kiting and without the use of external cooldowns by equipping a heavy avoidance suit and rotating Shield Wall and Last stand as has been suggested. If things were getting heavy I had the option of popping additional dodge and armour trinkets as well.

Fairly simple in the end to be perfectly honest, when we first reached this fight we tried the kiting method and to be fair it caused more problems than it solved.

Also worth mentioning that I was allowed to focus completely on threat rather than interupts as we had our DK OT, a DPS DK and a Rogue accomodating that task to great effect.

Another point regarding the ranged/melee balance. We actually only ran with one ranged caster, an arcane mage. We had one hunter (although they don't benefit like Mages/Locks etc do) and the rest were melee, our DKs 20% haste aura countering the attack speed debuff helped considerably.

Good luck to those still attempting this boss, eventually everything will just "click" into place.

M.

Roarc
05-26-2009, 03:32 AM
I can add that a single dps warrior can do all the interupts in the 10 man version. We had our arms warrior stand in zerkerstance doing it all (a side from one I had to help out on while tanking as a prot. warrior). We saved our heroic throws for the kiting "phases" (they are at 60-65 second intervals so you will have it up for the next run). A protection warrior will be the odd 1-2 seconds too slow every other interrupt.

We've always used the kiting tactic to remove as much damage as possible from the encounter but I sense the usage of CD's work fine as well, esp. in the 10-man scene.

Ghladum
05-28-2009, 07:31 AM
Roarc, are you positive that a single Prot warrior cannot solo the interrupts with a 12-second Shield Bash cooldown?

On some attempts, it seemed like I could get them all, then we had one attempt where my cooldown wasn't ready - that or I was slacking on being ready and just ended up being late. I wasn't sure if it was a bug or isolated incident or if it's something that should just be assumed that you need more than one 12-second cooldown to handle all interrupts.

▀o▀
05-29-2009, 07:56 AM
On 25man with 4 paladins and my shieldwall, i was able to eat every surge, Rotation went as such, SW(unglyphed) + LS, Hand/S for the next 4 then back to my SW+LS.

Over 35% of the damage you take from the general is magic, so saving your shield
block for the surge(with set4 bonus) took some of the edge off. Remeber the surge increases his physical damage, so the bonus is just small thing that can make a big difference.

I saved my my jc trink and shield block(both have 60/s or less CD so its perfect) for just hair into the surge so it was be up for the entire duration unlike the Hand/S and Pain/S

Lore
05-29-2009, 09:02 AM
Over 35% of the damage you take from the general is magic, so saving your shield
block for the surge(with set4 bonus) took some of the edge off. Remeber the surge increases his physical damage, so the bonus is just small thing that can make a big difference.

Unless you're doing something very wrong, 100% of the damage the MT takes is physical.

irj512
05-29-2009, 02:23 PM
How did you all manage the vapor spawns, meaning when do you kill them?

We tried having the healers inform someone of when they needed mana, then killed a vapor for them. We then had our (3) healers go in in the order they needed mana.

Our pally healer went oom very fast while our 2 druid healers seemed to keep mana a bit longer.

Any vapor-management suggestions?

Molohk
05-29-2009, 02:26 PM
We just ended up establishing semi-standard time lapses for killing them. A healer calls out when to kill one, it's roughly 1 per minute because I can hear the healer calling out every time he casts his enrage thing >.<

Damonvile
05-29-2009, 11:46 PM
Any vapor-management suggestions?


We break one every 12% there's 8 of them so it works out pretty well.

▀o▀
05-30-2009, 02:01 PM
Unless you're doing something very wrong, 100% of the damage the MT takes is physical.


yah when i broke down the wws better,(ask a few questions) there was a few range dps that thought if they jump inside the 15yrds they would be able to avoid the shadowcrash, which explained alot on a few wipes. The wws just showed me as taking shadow damage untill i looked deeper. Since thats the case i can gear for better avoidance and HP instead the sac for the set 4 bonus

Ferfey
06-01-2009, 10:51 AM
What were you tanking as Ttocs? For the pull I deathchilled a HB followed by BB-BB-OB-ERW-OB-OB-OB while taking the Rime procs when they popped and FS's when KM was up. ...

I also have been popping UA at the start of fights, gives a boost to mitigation and the increased strength really helps a Deathchilled Howling blast grab the mob's attention.

Wondering if you've tried this fight using your single target/threat blood spec? Got my first pull at him in our 10 man but haven't tried it in 25 man.

Ejie
06-04-2009, 09:38 AM
I didn't see anything about this, but for surge of darkness could an anesthetic poison help to dispell?

Mookey
06-05-2009, 12:11 AM
No it's not usual enrage...
About poisons tho - wound poison works on healing part if your ranged are retards and Vezax heals himself from mark

Titangrip
06-05-2009, 02:54 AM
is it possible to tank him stationary as a warrior? Using Shield Wall and Last Stand+dodge trinkets on alternate Surges.

I've seen DKs and Bears doing that.

Glittersmith
06-05-2009, 03:02 AM
You can do it easily if you have one more cd in the raid. (Pain supression, Hand of Sacrifice etc.)

But with Imp Disciplines, Glyph of Shield Wall and Glyph of Last Stand you can do it alone to.

Endorphins
06-08-2009, 08:17 PM
I was wondering if there was some sort of limit to how many saronite clouds spawned during the fight, because around five minutes in, on our 10 man, the clouds stopped spawning and we ended up wiping due to no mana. So my question basically is whether or not this was simply a bug or if there is some sort of limit.

RPZip
06-08-2009, 08:18 PM
I was wondering if there was some sort of limit to how many saronite clouds spawned during the fight, because around five minutes in, on our 10 man, the clouds stopped spawning and we ended up wiping due to no mana. So my question basically is whether or not this was simply a bug or if there is some sort of limit.

There's only ever 8.

Endorphins
06-08-2009, 08:28 PM
thanks for the quick response.

Delicatesse
06-09-2009, 12:19 AM
is it possible to tank him stationary as a warrior? Using Shield Wall and Last Stand+dodge trinkets on alternate Surges.

I've seen DKs and Bears doing that.

We tank him stationary with a warrior. With adequate talents and glyphs, the warrior can shieldwall every second surge. On the rest of the surges we use some external cooldown: guardian spirit and/or hand of sac. Also, the warrior uses last stand when needed during the surge. TC and demo must be kept up.

We use 2 healers (druid+pala) and 7 DPS, the fight is over in about 5 min, healers use 1 or 2 vapors, some ranged dps needs 1 vapor during this time.
First kill happened with 3 healers (druid+pala+holy priest) but 3 is unnecessary, the damage output in 10man is pretty low, reactive healing is more than enough if the tank is geared.

Stationary tactic is very easy and failsafe as all healers and melee can stand still all the time, only 4 ranged dps must dodge stuff. You need at least 3 people out of the boss' melee range before he starts putting marks and crashes on people in melee range.

exiled1994
06-11-2009, 02:13 PM
Sick guides keep them coming!

Cruciata
06-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Has anyone done any testing regarding whether or not the mana return from Lay on Hands works? I'm assuming no, I would just like some clarification.

Mookey
06-12-2009, 01:54 AM
Some inside infos:

I tanked him 3rd time now in 25 man as warrior without kiting:
From tanking him with 5/15/51 spec with glyphed SW/LS, I glyphed same but 15/3/53 spec with imp disciplines instead of malice, with desire to test out "all arround" spec for Ulduar.

Increase in incoming damage without 5/5 imp demo was noticeable, but still far from undoable.

There are 3 things that are simple great in this encounter

Figurine Monarch crab - 1min CD, it's up for each surge

Last stand + heart of iron - Since you are shield walling each 2nd - give your helpers external cooldown helpers little breathing space if their CD fails to come in time... use LS on every 2nd surge opposite to your shield wall.

Expertise - With small panic about tanking him last night with new spec, I went in with full EH gear from Mimiron, and I got squished by General 2 times to arround 5-6% of my HP, then we wiped cuz we lost few people on mark, anyway I checked and I was @ 20ish expertise... :D Well - switched gear arround, went up to 35 and went in... 2 strikes in a rown didn't happen at all... It was noobish to go in with that low but anyway - wanted to share that with other fellow tanks...

Surmaaja
06-12-2009, 06:41 AM
Expertise - With small panic about tanking him last night with new spec, I went in with full EH gear from Mimiron, and I got squished by General 2 times to arround 5-6% of my HP, then we wiped cuz we lost few people on mark, anyway I checked and I was @ 20ish expertise... :D Well - switched gear arround, went up to 35 and went in... 2 strikes in a rown didn't happen at all... It was noobish to go in with that low but anyway - wanted to share that with other fellow tanks...

Agree, I allways tank it with over 50 expertise and the incoming dmg is much more predictable without parry-hastening him and it helps with threat aswell of course.

kaotiko
06-12-2009, 07:07 AM
Hello,
Last night was our first night at General. We got him down to 1.5% on our best attempt. I was MT and wanted to ask if him being immune to "Rune Strike" is working as intended, or is it a bug? I had a bit of trouble at first with threat, but was fine after I stopped using it.

Thank you

EDIT: I'm confused now. Looking at the WWS report, I see my Rune Strikes hitting him. What gives!

Nergal
06-14-2009, 05:47 AM
What the action bar addon that you use?

Mookey
06-14-2009, 07:04 AM
Hello,
I was MT and wanted to ask if him being immune to "Rune Strike" is working as intended, or is it a bug? I had a bit of trouble at first with threat, but was fine after I stopped using it.

Thank you

EDIT: I'm confused now. Looking at the WWS report, I see my Rune Strikes hitting him. What gives!

You are IMMUNE for any abilities that regen mana, and you get immune if you hit him and proc that... e.g. I'm getting immune msg all the time due Judgement of Wisdom procs

Damonvile
06-18-2009, 12:12 AM
Agree, I allways tank it with over 50 expertise and the incoming dmg is much more predictable without parry-hastening him and it helps with threat aswell of course.

It was my understanding that he has parry haste turned off. Does anyone know for sure ?

Kozuki
06-18-2009, 05:40 AM
It was my understanding that he has parry haste turned off. Does anyone know for sure ?I wish that were the case, but it's definitely not, I've been parry gibbed quite a few times by him due to the nature of how the fight has to be healed on hard mode and how quickly he spikes on you if he parries, it sucks.

Yeti
06-23-2009, 09:09 AM
Sadly haven't read much about Paladins being able to tank this Big Guy, is it just that they dont have the CD's needed to do so?

Any suggestions on Tanking this guy as a Pally would be much apprieciated.

ty

Dizzy
06-29-2009, 08:11 AM
Gonna try the tank without kiting strategy tonight. Been reading every post in this thread, so thanks all for the usefull information and tips.

Just wondering about best gear for this fight. Especially about which trinkets to use. I heard some say go for avoidance instead of EH and others say go for expertise. So I guess that i don't use the Essence of Gossamer - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37220) but either use the following combination:

* Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292) + Valor Medal of the First War - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40683)
* Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292) + Mark of Norgannon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40531)

Which combination would you suggest?

Dizzy
06-29-2009, 02:03 PM
We got him down on 6th try today. LS-SW rotation worked like a charm on the Surge of Darkness.

Thanks again for the great movie and advice

Horacio
07-03-2009, 05:43 AM
After wiping on him for 3.5 hours last night, we're going back to the drawing board.

After a little practice, our warrior MT has the kite down pat. He's at about 42K buffed and was able to make it through the kite phase ok except for the whole healers getting out of position thing when the tank moved. When he does move, everyone gets out of position and the boss's effects are hitting a larger number of people and we lose people to attrition throughout. Things like all the healers deciding to go stand in a cloud at once or people killing others with the Mark for not moving......or a missed interrupt.

We had 2 teams of 3 assigned to interrupt and the tanks catching any they could. I led the meter last night on it despite pulling back to be the MT's intervene target.

Talk now is letting our pally tank have a shot at it and not kiting but rotating CD's so people don't have to move and reposition. I dunno, we'll see.

Theganik
07-03-2009, 02:07 PM
would having a MS warrior in the raid reduce the amount of incidental healing general recieves from the life drain effect? with healers all running to puddles at the same time combined with the speed at which the spell starts healing him, it seems like a hard thing for our group to avoid at the moment.

Northsoul
07-03-2009, 03:40 PM
To Horacio:

Well, I'm a Frost DK tank and i'll give you some ideas from my guilds strat that might help.

1. Do you think it is possible for the warrior tank to eat the frenzy effect w/o the kite? This simplifies the encounter a bunch in my opinion. The way we did this before my tank set built up, we did use a warrior with the glyphed Last stand and shield wall. For Frenzy #1 the priest burned Pain surpression followed by a Shield from the pally (The talented one, can't remember ability name, sorry!) Frenzy #2 he burned his last stand and Shield wall, followed by a different priest/pally burning Cd's on him for Frenzy #3, rinse and repeat.

2. Healers have enough to worry about with the amount Vezax hits for, we stack the healers in the meele so they don't need to worry about life leech/ Shadow crash until they move to a saronite pool.

3. For the interrupts, all I can say is have the kick people make a macro that will cast kick/ mind freeze/ etc. and yell something like: Group 1 kicked, group 2 next! to help keep people on track.

4. Set designated areas for your ranged DPS to stand and where to move if they get Mark of the faceless or the Shadow crash in their group.

Hope this helps, use what you want of it :D
Best of luck with Vezax, Yogg isn't too far away!

thefiddle
07-11-2009, 12:11 AM
Is there an estimate or knowledge of how fast General Vessax hits? is it 1/ 1.5 seconds or a bit more or a bit less?

hvidgaard
07-13-2009, 04:11 PM
Without having a combatlog to gaze at, from a healing POV I would say a standart 2sec swing timer with parry hastes every now and then. Being able to 2 shot a tank is just too harsh with a swingtimer lower than 2sec.

cudmaster
07-13-2009, 04:42 PM
Any suggestions on Tanking this guy as a Pally would be much appreciated

reasons to not even try it:

1) no mana regen for prot... you have to step into that green stuff that hurts you to give you mana in order to hold agro and that is just plain dumb (honestly did they even test this, I mean I pulled it off with my pally in 10 man but I feel dumber for having done so).

2) you need external cooldowns, granted you can use trinkets when you can't use your own cooldown... but if trinkets alone could save you, we wouldn't be talking about this. Preferably you'll have 2 priests, one holy one disc, alternating their cooldowns, when your cd isn't up.

Honestly I don't even like the idea of tanking this boss on my warrior let alone my pally, IMHO he is as much the 3.1 "showcase" fight for DK tanks as Sarth+3 was in 3.0 If you have the folks available I would ALWAYS have a DK or Druid tank Vezax, and I simply can't immagine a pally doing it at all on hardmode since there is no greenstuff to give you mana, you go oom in the first 20 seconds then gg.

mymF.Mirex
07-14-2009, 08:54 AM
oh my...

1. Protection Paladins do have mana regen. "Spiritual Attunement" still works and as Vezax hits rather hard, you will have no problems at all with your mana pool. Oh and LOL @ you in case you really stepped into those green puddles.

2. Entirely true. You will need Cooldowns but this should not be a problem since you can just kite him when you dont have cooldowns - which is not hard to do at all.

3. Use a DK when you have the chance to do so. A DK is by far the best tank for this fight though it can be done with any class capable of tanking rather easily.

cudmaster
07-17-2009, 12:31 PM
oh my...
1. Protection Paladins do have mana regen. "Spiritual Attunement" still works and as Vezax hits rather hard, you will have no problems at all with your mana pool. Oh and LOL @ you in case you really stepped into those green puddles.

I've heard some people saying if you go 2/2 SA and miss some consecrates you should be able to keep your mana pool > 0.

I love respecing for one fight, at least I don't have to reglyph too like I do on my warrior. I'll give it a shot this week.

Still though, bliz clearly intended for you to use a dk or druid on this guy.

But yeah I totally had to use the green pools in 10 man with 1/2 SA. I mean pally tank mana pools are small so it was just an in for 2-3 stacks then out sort of thing from time to time, not much extra work for the healers... but being forced into that made hardmode look impossible for my pally.

Droodboyz
07-19-2009, 11:16 PM
Ok, I kinda skimmed over the posts and didn't see anything but i play a resto druid and i was wondering if innervate or the mana return from lifebloom still work here i know Lore in the video did not mention either of those working but he also ddint say they dont work so im just curious (I have yet to fight vezax otherwise i would have experimented this myself).

skunkfart
07-20-2009, 02:34 PM
I've heard some people saying if you go 2/2 SA and miss some consecrates you should be able to keep your mana pool > 0.

I love respecing for one fight, at least I don't have to reglyph too like I do on my warrior. I'll give it a shot this week.

Still though, bliz clearly intended for you to use a dk or druid on this guy.

But yeah I totally had to use the green pools in 10 man with 1/2 SA. I mean pally tank mana pools are small so it was just an in for 2-3 stacks then out sort of thing from time to time, not much extra work for the healers... but being forced into that made hardmode look impossible for my pally.

I haven't fought this boss yet, but have you considered dropping every other consecration or anything like that? Normally I'm leagues ahead of my DPSers and you essentially have a situation where you get to tank the boss Patchwerk style and the DPS have to deal damage with all sorts of hinderances.

Also, I didn't read every post in this thread, but it seemed Salvation was deemed unreliable for Surge of Darkness and I'm wondering why. Can he melee immediately after casting? If that is indeed the case, you could just move a bit out of melee range while he casts then activate Salv when he starts running at you. All you need is to make sure Salvation isn't activated before the Darkness buff and the timing should be fine.

Nogara[
07-21-2009, 09:48 AM
So i read something, but would like to confirm it before we do attempts on Vezy tonight :p

A mages' amplify magic on the tank in this fight...yay or nay?

Molohk
07-21-2009, 09:59 AM
There's no magical damage on the tank (unless he's kiting and runs into a shadow crash, so just tank still :P), so it can't hurt.

Edit: I'm talking about normal mode, the add in hard mode does magical AoE damage.

nefaisrien
07-22-2009, 07:53 AM
I believe I saw people in the video stepping in and out of the puddles to regain mana. Was I correct in this? If this is so, is there some sort of debuff that is received that goes away after some time that allows you to start getting mana for health at the starting rate?

ansa
07-22-2009, 08:41 PM
I believe I saw people in the video stepping in and out of the puddles to regain mana. Was I correct in this? If this is so, is there some sort of debuff that is received that goes away after some time that allows you to start getting mana for health at the starting rate?

if u can, read all 9 pages of this forum and u will find all the answers you need.

the video's commentary is specific as well.

thanks for the time lore, cider et al

junkilo
07-24-2009, 01:35 PM
I just wanted to mention that despite what Lore says in the video(s), melee can benefit from Shadow Crash puddles if they are within range of the boss. I was standing in them on our latest General Vezax attempts (a Ret Paladin: Alcarius on Garithos) and was getting 13 to 15k judgement crits. Our enhancement shaman was getting 14k Lightning Bolt crits when he used his Maelstrom stacks and our Blood DK was getting 7-8k Death Coil crits.

I would not recommend going out of your way to get these buffs however.
^
this.

vendertian
07-25-2009, 04:16 AM
well my guild is a strict 10 man guild and we have tried the kiting method with(our usual tank) a pally. THIS IS A HORRIBLE IDEA!!!!

I can not stress how much easier this fight is when everyone is standing still. We have every tank we use just take the surge and we have no trouble. our make-up is as follows for the most part give or take a few changes in range depending on the day.

1 tank - pally
3 healers - Shammy, Disc priest, holy pally
4 ranged dps - varies on the days, any will do
2 melee - rogue, dk

The healers just sit under the boss. I, the disc priest, is the primary healer. healing the MT before and after the surges so that the pally and shammy heal during. I just use renew, PoM, and shield to heal for the most part and wait for the tank to take some damage then penance when needed. when the surge comes i PS and the dk kills a mana puddle for me and i get my mana back by then the surge is over and im back under the boss. of course the shammy and pally help if needed but for the most part just save their mana for surges. They do just fine with whatever they are doing to keep the tank alive. The rogue does all the interupts. and if needed when the other healers need mana which is only like once in the fight the go right after a surge and the dk just kills one a little bit after he kills the one for me.

assuming the range dont ever get hit by the crashes, wich they shoud not be, all heals go to the tank and noone else. Otherwise use your bandages. This is the best way we have found to do this.

I only mention this because we have tried that kiting stuff for 3 weeks before we figured out it sucks and was way easier to just keep him still. If it works for you great but it just did not work for us. There was way to many variables going on when you moved the boss around. shadow crash a laggy melee that is too close to the tank, siphon life or whatever that is on the tank or melee, range issues for healers and dps was just too much for us, so keeping him still takes those all away.

agranyoch
07-25-2009, 09:27 AM
assuming the range dont ever get hit by the crashes, wich they shoud not be, all heals go to the tank and noone else. Otherwise use your bandages. This is the best way we have found to do this.
Quick pointer for people as thick-headed and stupid as me: don't bandage yourself in Shadow Crash! ;-)

Collywobbles
07-26-2009, 08:32 PM
we just did this hard mode in 10 man today and I found that as a resto druid, you can gain mana while still healing awsomely. the thing is,

1. stay in shadow crash and cast 3 lifeblooms + reju
2. move out of the crash and wait for lifebloom to tic off

and what happens is when you cast the lifeblooms in the crash it only costs like 200 mana and the lefebloom ticoff mana return should be 100 mana. but as you are out of the crash when the blooms go off it gives you back mana as you had wasted 800 mana on the lifebloom and it returns you 400 mana per lifebloom.

so when we hit the second phase in the fight I had 100% mana left and had done the most healing.
also it seems when you are out of crash when the lifebloom goes off the healing for that bloom is not lowered.

dumbidum
07-30-2009, 03:44 AM
Hi, first of all sorry for my engish, if u don't want to see mistakes, don't read this post.

I think we got this fight under control for 10 man (at least the tanking and healing part), but we are having problems to beat the enrage timer.

Our ranged dps only do damage when they can be in a cloud, we got em in two groups of two to avoid a lot of healing to the boss.

We got one enh shaman cuting casts, and one ret pally in charge of the green clouds when the healers need it.

The last trys we made to the boss we wiped at 50ks and 400ks of hp, all of em because of enrage. the 4 ranged dps are at 4ks each one, the 2 melees at 2ks, any sugestions where the problem can be?

Also I would like to thank all project marmot authors for this nice howto movies.

Vorla
07-30-2009, 04:09 AM
Hi, first of all sorry for my engish, if u don't want to see mistakes, don't read this post.

I think we got this fight under control for 10 man (at least the tanking and healing part), but we are having problems to beat the enrage timer.

Our ranged dps only do damage when they can be in a cloud, we got em in two groups of two to avoid a lot of healing to the boss.

We got one enh shaman cuting casts, and one ret pally in charge of the green clouds when the healers need it.

The last trys we made to the boss we wiped at 50ks and 400ks of hp, all of em because of enrage. the 4 ranged dps are at 4ks each one, the 2 melees at 2ks, any sugestions where the problem can be?

Also I would like to thank all project marmot authors for this nice howto movies.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/auAeWjX3QwQYY9YD/sum/damageDone/?s=10006&e=10493)
This is a WoL from our (only) kill, only 2 ranged (average ~4300 DPS between us, I had more luck with Shadow crashes which accounts for my higher damage done, the melee averaged at ~2300 tank included). The fight took just over eight minutes to finish, so we weren't even close to the enrage timer. I really have no idea how you manage to hit the enrage timer before your healers run out of mana - when Vezax died in the above log, me and the warlock were basically dry (I'd been in one vapor for about 7k mana, the warlock had been in a couple IIRC) and the three healers were also dry and we had used up all the vapors.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you in that you have 6 DPS, 1 tank and 3 healers, I really have no clue.

dumbidum
07-30-2009, 04:53 AM
Unless I'm misunderstanding you in that you have 6 DPS, 1 tank and 3 healers, I really have no clue.

Thanks for the answer and thanks for the effort trying to understand this :P, we're going with 3 healers, 1 tank and 6 dps, but the enh shaman is going with crap gear to get the spell hit cap to cut all the casts, and isn't doing a lot of dps.

The enrage time is 10 min, maybe using 2 healers insted of 3 and adding another dps would give us the kill, but our healers don't want to go with two on this fight.

We use one healer on the tank, another suporting him, when the first healer is nearly oom he go to a saronite vapor, while the second starts healing the tank and the third starts with the suport. We repeat that rotation till the end. How do you do it with two healers?

I tank as a prot paladin, I kite one surge and the next one I use cooldowns to give the fight less movement, more control of the saronites and a bit more dps.

Vorla
07-30-2009, 01:52 PM
We had three healers, two trees and a disc priest. We'd alternate one of them standing "out" (to avoid having Mark in the melee) and two "in" (with the melee) healing the tank. When healer 1 was at 75%, we'd switch that person "out" and the "out" person in, and whoever was "out" was not healing and instead we had the DK DPS run off and grab a vapor that the DK tank later grabbed also, to keep it near or on the healers. When healer 2 was at 50%, we'd switch that person out, and in comes healer 1 again, hopefully at or near 100%. When healer 3 reached 50%, we switched healer 2 back in and when healer 1 was at 50%, switch again, and that's the full circle. The DPS coordinates the crashes so that they grab the ones who go on the "out" healer (you won't have this problem with 3+ ranged DPS) but might want to have an "out" healer so that the "out" healer is the one getting regen together with what DPS also needs it, and the occasional "in" vapor for the healers keeping the tank alive.

Having Vezzie stationary really makes the fight so much easier, but you obviously have the vapor thing down better than us if you can last the full enrage timer. But, as I said, with that total DPS which was higher than ours, you should be killing him at least at the eight minute mark or even earlier. One thing I might note is that we did non-trivial DPS outside of crashes too, 211s spent in a crash for me, and 365s total DPS time (this is slightly inflated by the FFB dot/Ignite, but decently reliable since it's a short one). Most of it was towards the end of the fight when he was going towards 100k or so and the casters just needed to do as much damage in a short timespan as possible so that the melee could finish him off with their steady damage.

It would greatly help if you could show a log from the kill. I suspect there was a lot of healing done to Vezax from Marks - did your DPS group up on crashes and eat ticks from Mark every now and then? He heals for sickly amounts, and when he went from 100k to 150k to 200k in like a second during our kill try cause one of the healers (IIRC) went to the wrong place I was sure it was gonna be a wipe but we kept it together. During our try he healed for 580k damage in total - that's over 25% of my total damage done or just below the total damage contribution of our worst melee DPS - not a trivial amount and we kept the "out" people spread to avoid getting any mark ticks at all and only stood one person in each crash. Perhaps something to focus on next time for you?

dumbidum
07-31-2009, 03:02 PM
Hi again,

We had 2 people at shadow crash, and sometimes the boss healed for some ticks, this might be our problem. We don't have any log sistem, I'll take a look at yours and use it because seems a very helpful tool.

We won't be able to try it until september because we're on holydays now, so the kill is going to have to wait.

Thank you for your help!

Tempestas
07-31-2009, 08:45 PM
If the ranged are stacking up there will be some heals, your ranged just need to move as soon as they get mark and not just stand there and dps.

FizzleKrank
08-02-2009, 01:20 AM
I haven't seen any posts yet mentioning anything similar, so I'm going to share our guild's 10 man strat. We just downed him for the first time tonight, myself (Paladin) tanking.

Our comp was:
2 Holy Paladin
1 Holy Priest
1 Balance Druid
1 Hunter
1 Rogue
1 Arms Warrior
1 Prot Paladin
1 Ret Paladin
1 Elemental Shaman

We started the encounter tanking General where he stands at idle in the room, with our three ranged DPS at a little under max range, our melee behind the boss, and our healers at the sides of him. With just the DPS at ranged and spread out, we had virtually no health given back through mark of the faceless and there were plenty of black puddles to stand in.
Instead of eating the enrages, I chose to kite him, specifically in the direction of the furthest saronite vapor, which I had marked while running.
Our hunter quickly dropped the vapor, and I positioned the boss such that his back was facing the nearest wall and the saronite pool was just to the left or right of Vezax.

*Our rogue was primarily on interrupts for the entire fight, however, our warrior and myself were ready at the hint of a missed kick or a range issue during kiting.

**Instead of chanting Tuskarr's Vitality, I decided to move 2 points into Pursuit of Justice to make the kiting that much easier.

***The only thing I had to watch out for when kiting was his casting of searing flames, because he stopped momentarily while casting it, even when enraged. This does give you extra time to get some distance, however, it can be very easy to get in range of either a mark of the faceless or a shadow crash.

mistersix
08-02-2009, 10:22 PM
Even when Sarth 3D rolled around I didn't feel as discouraged about my class/spec as I did tonight in 10man hard mode Vezax. The zero/infinite rage situation really bit me and the raid in the ass tonight. Ugh.

Lanore
08-05-2009, 10:45 AM
I am a casual guild raid leader and we finally got to and downed General last week on 10 man. Thanks to everyone who posted useful information. We used many of your contributed information to make our raid successful.

Here was what we ended up with:

-Warrior tank
-Two healers (tree and disc priest)
-Amplify Magic on tank
-We kept him stationary (first attempts we tried to kite, stationary>kite)
-We rotated Pain Suppression, Shield Wall, and LS w/ trinkets to get thru the boss enrages.
-We asked our caster dps to only attack the boss when in a shadow zone
-Our druid tree found that LB stacked on the tank while in a shadow zone was uber for mana return and he only had to regen from the green zones once
-The disc priest (me) had to regen mana 4 times, I PW:S and jump in, put a renew on myself and a PoM and wait for a 6 stack and jump out. Gave me enough mana to continue every time. I suggest designating one caster on each side to kill an add for you and just run to wherever it falls. First few times we used a melee to run out and kill one, but we found that he would almost always end up with life leech and have to stand outside the hit box for 15 seconds so he didnt heal the boss to full.
-We used a heal rotation where I would heal MT until I was at 40% mana, then I would call for an add to be killed and tree would take over heals until I was back into play.
-Took us nine wipes over two days to get it all worked out, but in the end, it was easy.

Thanks again to tankspot and all other contributors

DrussUK
08-11-2009, 05:25 AM
Attempted this guy in 25 man for the first time the other day and the main problem was interrupts. We had two rogues (of which i'm one) doing the kicks but in 3 attempts we didn't quite get it down because (for example) we tried to kick another cast like shadowcrash that wasn't the correct one and ended up on CD for when we needed to kick OR someone other than us interrupted and we assumed the other had so got our rotation stuffed up. Anyway it was our first shot so i'm not feeling too bad about it.........

But - what I would like to know from those in the know is whether the spell we need to interrupt is cast on a regular timer or not. Seemed to be about every 10 seconds or so BUT I swear there were several occassions where he appeared to cast the ability we needed to interrupt back to back i.e. i'd kick and a split second later he was casting it again. This did kinda mean anticipating the interrupts was tricky. Anyone know?

We'll be trying with 2 teams of 2 interrupting I think but still good to know the timer on his interruptable cast and whether my seeing him cast back to back as mentioned was for real or just the 5 cans of Stella kicking in ;P

Akeber
08-11-2009, 07:38 AM
We'll be trying with 2 teams of 2 interrupting I think but still good to know the timer on his interruptable cast and whether my seeing him cast back to back as mentioned was for real or just the 5 cans of Stella kicking in ;P

Your observation was correct. While he does have a CD on the abiltiy in 10 man (ten seconds I believe), he has no CD on 25.

Assign two interrupt teams, one main and one backup on each team. Tell everyone else with an interrupt, that was not assigned, to do so if it looks like the cast is hanging up there a little too long.

Calintara
08-17-2009, 09:36 AM
As a suggestion, what we did with our interrupt team was to send them into a separate vent channel. We did exactly as you mentioned, 2 teams but having them in another channel allowed then to coordinate specifically.

Before you get concerned about not hearing what is going on in the main channel i will add this. I created a key bind, as well as my Raid Assistants, to talk into those other channels. It is a one-way ticket unless they create a key-bind as well but they really do not have anything to say back to the RL/RA.

This allows them to coordinate their interrupts but also hear if they need to move out for a LL/MotF. We wiped twice to melee getting MoTF on 25 and they were both interrupters. We came up with this b/c we have someone calling out LL in vent to spur movement quicker. This is helping us solve the problem and quickly notifies that person interuppting backup that it is time for them to step in.

We use 4 interupters in two teams (2 shamans as primary then other interrupters as back up, with my shield bash in reserve if they scare me!

Any case hope this helps. Keybindings in vent are pretty useful for these things.

Demgar
08-17-2009, 05:11 PM
Vent usually allows you to park a "ghost" in any channel you need to listen to but not actually speak in. Save yourself the trouble of extra keybinds :)

Our rogues actually just bound a macro'd whisper and /say to the other team to their kick. They did have it in /RW, but we couldn't hear the ones we needed to, through all the spam!

/w rogue2 "Yer up next. I kicked this one (I hope)
/say Team 1 Kicked
/cast [target = general Vezax] kick

Something like that.



But - what I would like to know from those in the know is whether the spell we need to interrupt is cast on a regular timer or not. Seemed to be about every 10 seconds or so BUT I swear there were several occassions where he appeared to cast the ability we needed to interrupt back to back i.e. i'd kick and a split second later he was casting it again. This did kinda mean anticipating the interrupts was tricky. Anyone know?

The timer is now the lengh of the spell lockout from the interrupt used. That is, he will cast Searing flames again as soon as he is able. Shamans (I think it's them, sorry if not) have a 3 sec interrupt ability. Basically, instruct people to not use any ability of this sort, as it will lead to chained casts and people still on CD.

Fetzie
08-24-2009, 05:47 AM
As a paladin tank in full 226/couple of 232/245 items on 10 man.

Mana regen from BoSanc and SA 1/2 was not enough, indeed I am not sure that 2/2 SA would have been enough, to maintain a full rotation. I found myself standing still at the surges and skipping shield wall in the hope that the additional damage would result in more mana being restored, however I found myself calling for a mana cloud at around 35% as I was almost completely dry, even with dropping consecrate completely.

Has anyone got any tips other than share the green goop with the healers.

I havent tanked Vezax 25 since the patch, can a paladin simply pop avoidance trinkets (i.e. heart of iron and seal of llane) and rely on AD to mitigate enough of his damage in the surge phase when divine protection is on cooldown or do I still need to kite him? My tank colleagues (especially the deathknight) would never let it drop if I said "heck im going to to a deathknight and soak the damage" and then drop dead from the incoming hits.

Akeber
08-24-2009, 07:54 AM
Mana regen from BoSanc and SA 1/2 was not enough, indeed I am not sure that 2/2 SA would have been enough, to maintain a full rotation.

1/2 SA + BoSanc is definately not going to be enough mana return for a full 226 geared pally on ten man. Heck, it's probably not going to be enough on 25 either. I spent much of our last 25 man kill OOM, even had stop my rotation completely 10-15 seconds before surge to make sure I had enough mana to pop bubble wall. Even at 2/2 SA, a "bad" avoidance streak will kill our mana.

I don't understand why blizz gimped us so badly on this fight. They have hunters, ret pallies, and enhancement shaman a "free pass" on the mana thing. They could easily have doubled the amount of mana we get back from SA or BoSanc for this particular fight. Prot paladins rely on having divine plea up 100% of the time to maintain our rotation, it is a huge part of our mana return, but it has no effect in the encounter.

Jekaster
08-24-2009, 01:22 PM
I have tanked this one numerous times on 10 and 25 man and haven't had any significant issues with mana. I am 2/2 SA but I agree, that should make that much of a difference. I don't even stay in for the Surge, have always kited him. Now on the hard mode, if you can make it to about 35% I promise you want have any problems with mana with GV and the add beating on you :p

Wish I could tell you what the difference is, I use my typical rotation with occasionally skipping Avenger Shield to make sure I have it after the kite.

Fetzie
08-24-2009, 06:29 PM
my rotation consisted of holy shield, hammer, judge and "shield slam". Consecrate was never pressed. I never really use avenger's shield while tanking anyway, and with maana being more precious than water in the desert would not have been used anyway.

I really do not understand why blizzard cannot enable divine plea mana regeneration for paladins specced into hammer of the righteous on this fight, that would at least solve the resource issue. no healer would specc so deep into prot simply for the mana regen, heck, place a blanket reduction in healing done by 100% other than judgement of light and lay on hands if need be.

A Prot pala without mana is about as useless as a dead dps.

on a side note, how do you guys recommend picking up the animus after it spawned, half the tries we got to the animus phase it killed a healer before I could target it. A /target macro perhaps?

Jekaster
08-24-2009, 09:31 PM
on a side note, how do you guys recommend picking up the animus after it spawned, half the tries we got to the animus phase it killed a healer before I could target it. A /target macro perhaps?

My few times at trying it on 10 man, he always spawned on my 4th kite, which just so happened to be the one where I went right where he spawned. So just a quick HoReckoning and Avenger Shield and I had him. No luck on getting him down though. We could kill the Animus but would lose a ranged from the AoE damage and start dieing from Shadow Crashes on the melee and myself.

I understand that alot of people do not kite him, but on trying the hard mode, it seemed that the extra healing needed on the surges plus the lack of mana return from popping the clouds was too much on the healers. So I stayed specced 2/2 in PoJ and kiting him is cake. Have been specced that way since our first attempts on this guy and haven't changed since. Never have problems with DPS so no worrying about enrage timers from kiting him. I tank him on 10 and 25 man almost every week. The only thing that seems to wipe us is if someone misses an interrupt :(

mistersix
08-25-2009, 04:40 AM
In the non kite strat you try to engage GV where he starts so simple aoe and tabbing can pick up the animus.

kelestalas
10-05-2009, 06:10 PM
bout to take on vezax for the first time on 10 man and need to know if wound poisen will work for his soft enrage empowered darkness i believe its called

hvidgaard
10-11-2009, 11:54 PM
bout to take on vezax for the first time on 10 man and need to know if wound poisen will work for his soft enrage empowered darkness i believe its called

You're thinking of Surge of Darkness. No you can't remove that by any means, your tank will have to kite him or use a CD.

rdhao
10-13-2009, 09:32 AM
You're thinking of Surge of Darkness. No you can't remove that by any means, your tank will have to kite him or use a CD.

Not neccesarilly true, we downed him 2 nights ago in a 25 man and we just tanked through it with a druid tank. It took us quite some tries due to minor mistakes. [people not directly under the boss for shadowcrash avoidance, people killing vapors directly UNDER the boss so the dps died, not enough interupts on his flame attack thingie, and so on]

But it was done quite well. And although 4 hours trying to get a boss which makes druidhealing utterly boring because you only have to press rejuvenation once every 15 sec, i'm still damn proud of us =]

Taurosen
10-19-2009, 12:35 PM
what add ons are being used in video id like them

thattharhick
11-03-2009, 10:20 AM
We found that Hymm of Hope does work. Shadowfiend does not

might i suggest that the thing that "works" is the intel buff? grants you essentially 3-5k mana depending on your pool/class for like 10sec.

Wingnut
12-02-2009, 09:00 PM
I just did this fight tonight for the first time as a prot pally. Never before was I able to tank this because we just don't have enough CDs and I didn't have another pally in my raid group for another CD. Tonight I did.

What I found was really disturbing. I had, literally, unlimited mana as ret. I would be as 50% mana, then bam, I would be full. Tonight though, I was so low on mana, even without consacration, that I couldn't even hit divine protection. It was just horrible.

What causes my ret pally to get from 50% to 100% suddenly? It's not my replenishment either, because that's only a few mana at a time, which is a big burst of mana. Then, if I tried to heal, it used to stop all my mana regen altogether and I couldn't do anything but auto attack.

Wingnut
12-02-2009, 09:02 PM
my rotation consisted of holy shield, hammer, judge and "shield slam". Consecrate was never pressed. I never really use avenger's shield while tanking anyway, and with maana being more precious than water in the desert would not have been used anyway.

I really do not understand why blizzard cannot enable divine plea mana regeneration for paladins specced into hammer of the righteous on this fight, that would at least solve the resource issue. no healer would specc so deep into prot simply for the mana regen, heck, place a blanket reduction in healing done by 100% other than judgement of light and lay on hands if need be.

A Prot pala without mana is about as useless as a dead dps.

on a side note, how do you guys recommend picking up the animus after it spawned, half the tries we got to the animus phase it killed a healer before I could target it. A /target macro perhaps?

Take away LoH and you have taken away a CD that is needed for alot of pally tanks to actually pull this off. It's already difficult to tank as a pally. All the other classes have several CDs for this.