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View Full Version : When is it time to say screw it



Raptor
04-25-2009, 12:33 PM
I am writing this to get it off my chest, and to see if perhaps I am seeing it wrong.

Currently I am the Ot for a ten man, and now 25 man raiding team. We were doing regular runs of naxx ten, and the MT was pugging a 25 man every once in a while so our gear is not quiet the same with his being generally more 25 man then mine. However, up till the patch, we ran naxx regularly, and we were getting the ten members geared nicely in the hopes of getting another group of ten going and getting them geared so we could start a 25 man team. Make sence so far eh?
However, with the release of the patch, that has all gotten flushed down the crapper. The ten man team wants to head straight into Uldar, and the plans for the second team are now scrapped.

Now myself, I do not feel I am geared enough to step into Uldar, with only three naxx items, and the rest badges and heroics or crafted epics. I also belive that most of the team is not geared enough for uldar. Also, since the patch, my framerates when I am near uldar go right down into the loo and running a raid with a frame rate of 5 or less.. probally isnt a good idea...LOL.
Sooo what has happened is that I have been replaced as the OT because I can not attend uldar raids, and now I sit upon the sideline with the rest of the 80's in the guild who are wanting to get geared up and run raids and end game instances. I have tried to explain how people and myself are feeling about this whole thing, and the GL belives that he has to keep the MT/Raid leader happy or we will loose him. Hense why they are stepping into Uldar when they are not ready for it. I feel at a complete loss, I feel I have been tossed aside like yesterdays garbage, but mostly, I feel bad for the rest of the guild who where patenly waiting to get into naxx and get better gear. Who now have to wait longer and learn naxx by being thrown into a 25 man run that happens once in a while.

The worst thing that is happening though, is the MT, because of all this, treats me like a piece of goo stuck on his shoe. When we run something, most of the time, I get to stand around with my thumb up my arse while he runs off and tanks everything. Belive me, I do mean everything. On trash, he runs in, so do I, I tank x and keep my eyes pealed for break aways or pats or something. If something does show, instead of letting me grab it, he runs off and takes it himself. He constently taunts everthing off me, or will not let me build up agro on something. Even last night, when we did Patchwork in a 25man, I am to pull him and tank him, however as soon as i heroic throw and pull, before i can even shockwave or thunder clap he charges in and TC and yanks agro away causseing me to get the OT damage and the healers can not keep up. Dead in less then 30 secs.

I am so pissed off and angry right now, it's taking all I can do to not say screw it and walk away. However I have alot of friends in the guild and they all look to me for tanking heroics and possibly creating a ten man team to run naxx with.

One very frustrated tank

squats
04-25-2009, 12:38 PM
/gquit

find a new guild.
research your class
become better then him
run pugs of 25 man nax (you dont need gear to OT 25 man nax, its a joke)
make them sorry they ditched you.

blackhand
04-25-2009, 03:26 PM
QQ if the group that was raiding wants to go farther that's their choice. What's stopping you from taking who's left and pug 10 or 25 man naxx? I don't see the point in complainig when the majority of the active raiders want to see more content and you happento not want to. So either leave or do something positive about it. This is a game that doesn't revolve around you so let's not act like it does.

Jalousie
04-25-2009, 03:30 PM
I'm half and half here. You have obviously approached the GL and made your dissatisfaction known; he feels that the MT is indispensable. Right or wrong, that situation probably won't change so getting together a Naxx group with some other guildies isn't a bad idea. Gear up to a level you feel will see you through Ulduar and re-assess the situation. If your GL still gives the current MT is worth alienating other guild members for, then leave.

Tatt
04-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Blackhand from the sounds of it, it was NOT the majority that wanted to go to Ulduar, only 8-10 out of 25 or more. Raptor also seems to be trying to take a "best for the guild as a whole" view. Good for him. More people should do things to let everyone move forward. Your comment was not only unhelpful, but rather condescending and not worth posting.

Raptor - I do not know what to tell you...guild drama is guild drama. All I can say is do the best you can at enjoying the game, try to form things with the people you enjoy playing with. If the MT wants to be a ballhog, so to speak, either tell him you do not appreciate it, or learn to taunt just as much as him. If he does things like the Patchwerk example you mentioned, then your raid leader should be smart enough to see he is acting to the detriment of the raid, and say something to him.

My 2 cents

blackhand
04-26-2009, 12:26 AM
From the sound of his post, they were gearing a group of 10 and then were in the process of getting another dedicated group going. The fact that the patch dropped and that first group wants to move on is not really up the the TC. But there seems to be little stopping him from taking those others that they must have had in mind and starting up their own group to get them up to snuff.

orcstar
04-27-2009, 04:18 PM
Head into Ulduar, bang your head against a wall, go kill a boss once in a while and while doing that keep your nax going.

Raptor
04-28-2009, 01:40 AM
Thank you all for your responces, both good and bad. I know I took my chances posting on here and was going to get the good, the bad and the down right insulting, but hey..them's the breaks eh. :D



[quote=Tatt;215318] If the MT wants to be a ballhog, so to speak, either tell him you do not appreciate it, or learn to taunt just as much as him. If he does things like the Patchwerk example you mentioned, then your raid leader should be smart enough to see he is acting to the detriment of the raid, and say something to him.

/quote]

Great advice, only problem with that is, the MT is the raid leader and the guild leader thinks he is god and thinks without him we would not succeed at raiding.


Update.

After reading posts here, speaking to the gl, and others in the guild, I have decided on taking a break from tanking for a bit. I have created a ten man that I am going to run my alt, nasty lil lock, and am going to do my best to help build up two other tanks in our guld. This is my way of helpping out those in the guild that want the help and feel left out from raiding.

I am going to use my tank as a standby in case he is needed to sub for the tanks in the group, plus I am probally going to be oting a couple of naxx/os/ 25 man runs for the guild. Who knows, I may take a chance and try Uldar, but I am not going to step into a place that by most posts, I am not geared for. * I dont like suicide LOL*. Mostly I am going to take a step back , take a deep breath and go have some fun again melting faces off in raiding.

wayne
04-28-2009, 02:37 AM
I might be missing something here but I thought that the idea of MT and OT on trash was well and truley dead.

When I'm tanking, we just AoE tank as much as poss and see who wins :P

I do not mean to offend you by the following comment, but you seem like you are taking other comments in a constructive manner. - Maybe you just need to work harder on your skills as a tank?

Get in there and rip that threat meter :D Its fun!

This will let healers heal better because 2 of you will be taking damage, and also show the MT that your worthy of tanking alongside him.

Raptor
04-28-2009, 02:57 AM
I do not mean to offend you by the following comment, but you seem like you are taking other comments in a constructive manner. - Maybe you just need to work harder on your skills as a tank?

Get in there and rip that threat meter :D Its fun!

This will let healers heal better because 2 of you will be taking damage, and also show the MT that your worthy of tanking alongside him.

No offence taken, but perhaps if you read it a bit closer, you would also read that when I do pull agro, he taunts it off me. Thats the problem. My skills as a tank are just as good as his, if not better according to some of my guild mates.

minrog
04-28-2009, 03:11 AM
The second squad plan is the right choice imo. If you have way more people than can fit into a 10 man ulduar then doing a Naxx run on the side won't hurt unless you do it earlier and snag the best players. :P

As for the RL/MT guy I don't think he's wrong as far as his intent for progression goes. It's almost one of the hidden WoW mechanics that if a guild with raiding in its blood stalls out that it will implode. Been seeing for a long time but bosses like Vashj/Kael and Razoregore/Vael/Nef seemed to have an implode guild ability that they spammed.

It's progress or die and if people keep stumbling with their bads and cannot beat Ulduar their guilds will probably collapse. Naxx isn't good enough or hard enough to hold people's interest for 18 more months.

Durandro
04-28-2009, 03:19 AM
Sounds like your MT is an arrogant git, and he's a liability. Just wait until they wipe over and over again in Ulduar. You can't be a one man army in there, and you need to trust everyone to do their jobs and not think you're the only one who matters.

Anaea
04-28-2009, 08:40 AM
The second squad plan is the right choice imo. If you have way more people than can fit into a 10 man ulduar then doing a Naxx run on the side won't hurt unless you do it earlier and snag the best players. :P

Agreed. If you want to run a Naxx group, then by all means run a Naxx group. Given your framerate issues - which is a big deal in raiding now - that's really your only option. If you can't fill it in guild, get permission to include standing PuGs from another guild. Treat those PuGs like part of your raid team regardless of their guild affiliation and you'll end up with a strong group to enjoy content with.

(FWIW: If your framerate is really terrible you might find that solid caster DPS is going to be beyond your capabilities. We had a shaman on an old computer try to switch to ele and he discovered that he couldn't play any class competitively that didn't rely significantly on white damage. Something to keep in mind.)

Skyborn
04-28-2009, 08:51 AM
If gear is all that's standing between you and this problem child MT... start pugging Naxx25.

I'm in full Naxx25 gear and my guild only has 12 people. I pugged and pugged and pugged. Sometimes you get saved to a failpug that can't get past patch or thaddius. Othertimes the stars align and your pug does a full naxx clear in 1 night.

Basically I'm with Squats on this one. Tanking well is the best revenge. Get the gear, research all the Ulduar fights top to bottom, be confident, and make yourself indispensable. If not in your current guild... in a new one.

Lyco
05-05-2009, 02:14 PM
only problem with that is, the MT is the raid leader and the guild leader thinks he is god and thinks without him we would not succeed at raiding.

/gquit now and find a guild with a normal GM.

I'm a GM myself but often let the other tanks MT to keep it fresh. It's the sensible thing to do in my oppinion,

Ghreystar
05-05-2009, 02:32 PM
its never time to say screw it, and if thats your attitude then you dont deserve to be MT. gear yourself, pug what you can, lead what you cant pug. have fun laughing at an under-geared group heading into ulduar, its not a friendly place. get a new guild or transfer servers, there are so many options...

dont get me wrong, sounds like your situation sucks, and you deserve to be upset about it. what you do from here defines who you are.

Kalbitang
05-08-2009, 10:29 AM
FWIW, this is a pet peeve of mine, as well. I've raided with some tanks who felt it was their duty to tank every mob possible, taunting things off other tanks. Really frustrating and annoying. I did not and do not enjoy playing with tanks like that.

Someone else in my guild's response is just taunt back. Ideally, you can make a team that work well together.

/sigh

Cookie
05-09-2009, 02:43 AM
I might be missing something here but I thought that the idea of MT and OT on trash was well and truley dead.

When I'm tanking, we just AoE tank as much as poss and see who wins :P
Try single-handedly tanking all the trash in Ulduar -.- You won't get far. Most of the trash hit harder than Naxx bosses do.


FWIW, this is a pet peeve of mine, as well. I've raided with some tanks who felt it was their duty to tank every mob possible, taunting things off other tanks. Really frustrating and annoying. I did not and do not enjoy playing with tanks like that.

Someone else in my guild's response is just taunt back. Ideally, you can make a team that work well together.

/sigh
Tanks who feel that they have to tank everything are terribads IMO, and personally I think that those who feel that they have to do a job alone (tanks who want to tank everything, healers who think it's their job to keep the entire raid up alone, etc.) just have an over-inflated view of self-importance. Often, they're more of a liability than an asset to a raid.

Azriela
05-19-2009, 09:57 PM
I'm not a tank (the closest I get to tanking is the back of the Four Horsemen in Naxx), but my opinion is for the progression of the guild you're still going to need to get that second team going for 25's anyways. Right now everyone is infatuated with Ulduar, understandably since it's still pretty new, but again, getting more guildies geared and ready for the 25's your going to need should be a priority as well. I would approach the guild leader and say this is what I'd like to do, what are your thoughts? Then get that second team going even if you have to do some pugs to fill the team. Also, since you said the other tank was pugging 25's, I'm going to assume it's not against guild rules and you would be able to as well.

Sometimes the best revenge when someone wrongs you is not to return the favor, but to do well, if not better than they are.

supermaster
05-19-2009, 10:02 PM
'm not a tank (the closest I get to tanking is the back of the Four Horsemen in Naxx), but my opinion is for the progression of the guild you're still going to need to get that second team going for 25's anyways. Right now everyone is infatuated with Ulduar, understandably since it's still pretty new, but again, getting more guildies geared and ready for the 25's your going to need should be a priority as well. I would approach the guild leader and say this is what I'd like to do, what are your thoughts? Then get that second team going even if you have to do some pugs to fill the team. Also, since you said the other tank was pugging 25's, I'm going to assume it's not against guild rules and you would be able to as well.

Sometimes the best revenge when someone wrongs you is not to return the favor, but to do well, if not better than they are.
100% right, without gear u can't go to ulduar just like that!
priority should be certain number of people geared to go there.. but same time its easy to grind few bosses in ulduar 10/25 both if u have fairly enough geared people.

about pugging i'd say don't pug at all.. ur better in ur guild than with a pug that u don't know many but if u have better chance of learning something new its always good to try...

Good luck

Conreeaght
05-19-2009, 10:19 PM
Any head-tank (or tank role-lead or what have you) that treats his co-tanks (MT/OT is dead imo, you use the best key to open the way to the lewt) like sh*t doesn't realize that in 25 mans - very rarely can content be solo-tanked, and won't learn that lesson until they are the only one left - or they are thrown out in the cold themselves.

Speaking as the tank that is usually thrown at the highest content we can achieve so far - I realize every day that I get the glory for the hard work done by others in the shadows. I also try my best to not disable them by taking major upgrades away from them just because it's a minor for me. I shift the focus on them, and I will make sure they can have the spotlight if they send me a tell saying they want to give <boss> a shot. I'm not the best skillwise, and I'm about tied gear-wise. However, I think they keep me around because I'm willing to toss the reigns over now and again so that I can share the lumps, bumps, scrapes, and repair bills.

When raiding - you're only as strong as the weakest link.

Put me down as a vote for "move on." I really don't work well with ignorant people, and don't think anyone else should suffer them either.

qygibo
05-20-2009, 04:51 PM
If the guild isn't suiting your needs, why stay? There's no reason why you can't keep in contact with your friends in the guild; one person I know created a chat channel as more and more of her friends left the guild she is currently in (long story as to why she still stays); everyone just joins that channel and they're still able to hang out and group together for heroics and raids.

Being sidelined from being MT because you know your limitations, know that you need to be better geared, know that everyone else needs to be better geared is pretty shoddy of the GM IMO. You have to be strict right now with who you let in for Ulduar, it's not just something that just anyone can do when they haven't gotten at least gear from 10 man Naxx. And doing all of this just to appease one person? Putting one person above the rest, even if it is the MT, doesn't really seem to lead to the rest of the guildies feeling like they're valued contributors, especially if some of them might feel similarly to you in terms of what they know they are ready for.

I think that you're probably wiser than your higher ups in your guild just for realizing that it takes a lot more for Ulduar than it does for Naxx, and that should be commended, rather than having you unable to adequately progress with your guild because they have ilevel 219+ eyes. If you have to ask if it's time to move on, chances are that it's been time to move on for a while now.

Darthmalice
05-21-2009, 03:38 PM
Think about this; content progression and guilds require leadership. I understand your frustration and I would submit you that you undertake a project of organizing your guild to accomplish some 10 man content with you as the raid leader. In this sense you cheive 2 things, you can learn Naxx easier with the normal mode of Naxx and hopefully use a dps from the heroic group that knows the content and mechanics and get the loot drops that will allow your 10 man to progress into Heroic raids in Naxx.

I dont think quiting the guild is the answer, leadership is. In a void of guild leadership provide your own. People in the guild will follow a tank into progression if your prepare and know the fights, ask people to come prepared with pots, food and a good attitude. Learn about raid composition and what you will need to successfully complete the content. Be loot master and follow the loot rules of the guild and never sacrafice you integrity for a piece of loot.

Dont forget its a game and to have fun.

Molohk
05-21-2009, 04:01 PM
My advice to the OP:

Take the 80's, and get your own Naxx team started. They want to raid and get geared up, and they probably need someone to lead them into Naxx. If you're no longer comfortable in your guild or your guild is being a pain about it, you might want to consider taking as many of those 80s and starting your own guild.

twoswords
07-08-2009, 12:07 AM
"Text"

Take what remains of the group and start running Naxx for gear. Try to do Naxx 10 and also Naxx 25 and invite friends/randoms for it. Start being the raid leader for these raids, always keep a smile and a positive demeanor.

Set the ground rules for any newcomer(s): enchanted gear, gemmed gear, flasks and stat foods on at all times. If they follow that they are eligable for all loot. make sure you set up the loot rules simple and proper.

While you do this you make sure to study each and every single Ulduar fight as much as you can. Then lead your team into Ulduar and catch up with the other team.

Sooner or later you will be asked into the "main" team. Tell them that you cant because you have a responsibility to the other team, but you will gladly come along on the big raids if you can share the tanking in Ulduar 25'

Payback.