View Full Version : Ulduar and the Semi-Casual guild
Before 3.1, my guild managed to kill everything but Sartharion with 3 drakes. We killed Malygos before the breath-on-landing got fixed. We killed KT and we were working through Naxx achievements.
The guild's fairly casual. We have 12-15 core raiders, mix of class/roles, and the rest of the raid is more casual players. We mostly have familes, jobs, and so on. The 12-15 are pretty well geared, they either have or are 1-2 slots from Epic (stupid ranged weapons in naxx not dropping for melee dps).
The rest of the raid is composed of the more casual folks, who are by and large great players but not as well geared just because of not being able to get to as many raids. Generally they're in a mix of iLevel 213 naxx gear and ilevel 200 heroic/10-man naxx stuff. Which is, by and large, great gear
Then we get into Ulduar.
Our average DPS is somewhere around 2500 to 2800. The average required DPS is somewhere around 3500 in Ulduar. Then there's the issue with required number of healers (we were doing Naxx comfortably with 5, for Ulduar we probably need 7 from what I've read). So I've got to figure out how to fill that gap.
I really hate running Naxx anymore, it's just boring, done, played out. Yet that's the only way I'm going to get enough geared raiders to be able to do anything past Flame Leviathan.
What are my alternatives here? What am I missing? Did Blizzard just leave my entire guild out in the cold progression-wise, or is there something else going on?
04-23-2009, 03:39 PM
That means your guild has to skill-up. Mine is going through the same process and Razorscale is an excellent fight to do this. Once they reach the mark, I am sure they will actually enjoy playing more like our raiders have.
I realize it's about 2/3 a skill problem. Which isn't helped by the fact that the fights are changing every single night right now. I think a lot of it's a gear problem though. Which really sucks, because it means more Naxx runs.
Ulduar is not a place where you can have 15 good raiders and 10 others getting carried - everyone has to know their class and do DPS or heal to their maximum potential. Ulduar is not casual friendly in the same way T7 was I'm afraid.
Be prepared to wipe!
Oh we've wiped. Hours and hours. No progress to speak of.
To me "carrying" seems to imply a lack of effort of others. We're all trying hard, we all know our classes, and we're making a very small number of mistakes, pretty remarkable really.
I thought that the "hard modes" were going to be for the hardcore raiders, while the rest of the instance was a bit more casual friendly. As it is, we're not going to progress in 25 man and I can probably just quit now?
04-23-2009, 04:25 PM
The guilds that are clearing Ulduar now are the ones which everyone geared up to BiS (i213 or i226).
Ulduar-25 is tuned much closer than U-10. This means you have less room for error and/or gear level in 25 than you do in 10. U-10 is meant for i200/213 level gear that you could get from running 10 mans. So when you go in with BiS you have more room for error and hence it seems easeir.
U-25 is tuned for players coming out of Naxx-25 with i213/226 gear. That means you are already behind the tuning going in with i200/213 gear, which means that you have NO room for error and will have to outperform for your gear level.
Your just NOT going to hit the enrage timers with <3K dps. Also, there is nothing *magical* about Ulduar. If you are only doing 2.8KDPS on Patch your not going to do 700 more DPS just because you are in another instance.
Hopefully this doesn't sound too mean but...
Your jumping out of a Naxx at 22,000 ft, leaving your parachute behind because its the wrong color, and expecting to live because your landing in Ulduar. You either need to stay in naxx until you get your parachute on (gear the rest of the way up) or somehow learn to fly on the way down (become exceptional at your class).
04-23-2009, 04:53 PM
As others have said, there are two areas that need attention in order to make it in current Ulduar 25.
1) If a lot of your 25 guildies got their gear from Naxx-10/heroics, then in order to do Ulduar-25, you're going to need them into mostly 213-226 gear. You can do this two ways, either run Naxx-25 with your group, or separate into Ulduar-10 groups to upgrade some of that gear.
2) Strategy. The guild I'm in is fairly well geared across the board, but we're still wiping a lot. Organization and practice may be all that really stands between wiping and victory. Yes, we could split up and do Ulduar-10 for some slight upgrades to make it easier (which we are) but sometimes just knowing who stands where, when to dps, when to run etc. makes an encounter go from impossible to cake.
Anyways, don't give up! Work on these two aspects, and you'll chip those bosses away little by little. Stock up your gold and consumables, and, if you're still not discouraged, welcome to the world of progression raiding!
I think what I'm going to have to do is run Ulduar 10's until we get more people more gear then. Bleh. Not exactly what I'd hoped for when they announced the progression and hard mode stuff.
The other problem we've had is the typical bad drop ratio in Naxx. Let's see, 6 class/specs need 2 handed weapons, and we didn't see anything but melee daggers drop for the first, oh, 6-7 times through. Then we finally got a Jawbone. After getting the caster fist weapon 4 times. Several class/specs need plate DPS armor, but we got the 2 holy paladins all set in plate before we had a single dps piece drop. We've had one Betrayer drop in our prime time raid, while I looked around Dalaran and saw lots of fury warriors dual wielding them. The RNG has not been kind.
I see 2 real problems here.
1. Naxx was way to easy. I mean, way to easy. So what this did was make alot of people outright lazy or just develop sloppy play habits. On top of that, they tuned Ulduar back up to a "real" raid instance. To me, Ulduar is tuned just fine and should take the "casual" guilds a while to clear even if they have BiS gear. The fights are not trival and some invovle alot of coordination and raid awareness. But going into Ulduar in sub 213 gear as a casual guild is really asking to get it handed to you. The gear + skill requirements are just to high for casuals in subBIS gear to handle right now. Now blizzard will do what it does and nerf the content as the progression guilds clear it so that the casuals can also.
2. Blizzard sorta letting down the casuals in a way. Ill be honest, i was pleasantly surprised at the challenge of the encounters (other than the bugginess). I fully thought we would just lolroll through the easy mode version of the instance. This was/is not the case. It was a wake up call for even some of our raiders, hey, its time to turn on the raiding mentality again. I would not exspect a casual guild to clear this instance much before the next patch. Its not forgiving to people who dont do there homework or bother to learn there class and how to maximize it.
I would disagree though, you can carry people through this instance. You can only carry less, but you can still carry 5 - 8 player through (as you could with OS3D too).
04-24-2009, 03:04 PM
No blizzard did not leave you out in the cold progression wise. There is a reason why it is called progression and unfortunately without having 25-30 truely dedicated raiders you will have to either keep farming Naxx 25, or start running Ulduar 10 mans until your at the gear level for Ulduar 25.
By doing it this way yes it will take longer to progress but you still will be able to progress.
This is something that would not of been doable in Vanilla wow and TBC before any nerfs. If you did not have the people that could handle the big raids no amount of gear or time would get you through them.
My guild is in the same situation as yours. The really crazy thing is we have the tanks and healers geared and capable of doing Ulduar 25 but not enough DPS. So it was with great regret that I made the decision to move to 10 mans until we have all of our DPS putting out the numbers that are needed. Or until we find the recruits that fit in well with our guild and bench people for 25's until they can put out the numbers.
Ulduar is casual guild friendly it will just take more time for casual guilds to progress in there. However it is not idiot friendly.
I really think that Argamasilla said it best.
05-08-2009, 09:20 AM
I raid lead and am an officer in a semi-casual guild. We managed to kill OS+3 once, but consistantly could 1shot +2. Like the OP we have about 15 people who have BiS 226 items from T7 and make every raid. The rest of our roster is more hit or miss with the night and what is going on IRL.
What you should be doing imo is running U-10 on off nights. Understanding the boss mechanics and positioning will do wonders for your raid imo. Understand and appreciate what you have and work your raiders in a way that they understand what is happening and what they need to do.
ie. Mark players to stand by the marked person, give them an A and have them keep an icon on their head; Assign groups to locations so they understand where they should be, so on... Dumb it down for your real casual players.
For your DPS situation, only thing you can do is make sure you have the best raid synergy that is available that night and keep pushing your raiders. Positive motivation does 1000x more benifit then negative, especially in a casual type guild. We havent killed Yogg on 25, in fact our first week in U-25 we only got FL, Raz and XT. Now we can get siege and antechamber down in the first night.
Stay positive and just keep "learning" the instance. Like someone else mentioned U-25 definatly brought back raid coordination and player awareness.
Best of luck to you..
Hah, it's good to see that others have the same issue.
We as well have a good core of 15-18, and the rest, while ok
gearwise aren't always the same, and also aren't always the most
The first week in ulduar we downed FL (like everyone else), actually cleared
the ignis trash, and had attempts at Ignis, Decon, and Razorscale.
Our dps was way too low, so we put naxx25 back into the schedule.
Our second solution is to have 2 ulduar 10 groups going. Not only will this
give our less skilled raiders a better way to see the fights, it can help with
some gearing. We're just starting the 2nd group this week.
Our first group started last week, and downed 8 in ulduar 10, on sunday
afternoon. Once both groups look like they are performing well, we will
get back to focusing on ulduar 25. Additionally, we'll starting mixing group
members next week as well, to help provide additional experience.
05-08-2009, 10:41 AM
It's not a gear issue. 2600-2800 is how much blue geared dps should be doing. With a mix of 10 and 25man Naxx gear, dps should be doing 4000+dps with 25-man raid buffs easily.
In our raids, dps are doing 5000+dps, and some of them are still missing a few pieces of BIS.
Get your dps to read up on proper rotations from elitist jerks.
05-11-2009, 12:12 PM
We have 12-15 core raiders
i think this is your answer. it sounds like your guild should be focusing on ulduar10 until you have 25-30 core raiders.
05-11-2009, 12:24 PM
remember to run the bosses in VoA 25's ...easy, quick ...and Tier is Tier
Dont let your guys pug it...make it part of your raiding schedule
05-11-2009, 02:54 PM
I agree with Cookie. You mention you're average raid dps is between 2500 and 2800. That is incredibly low for a 25 man dps in all honesty. That is definitely not a gear issue. Just a couple of questions Lyci:
1. Do you have a few people that pretty solid dps (4k+) and a few that are lagging behind or is it more of a raid wide issue?
2. Do you have specific synnergies in mind in terms of raid composition (i.e. do you raid with 17 DK DPSers :P?)
3. Does everyone know how to get the most out of there class dps wise? Do they use spreadsheets? Have you checked people's rotations?
Imo getting dps up to par is really about competition to some extent. With people striving to be better than the next player, they improve their own play and such a mentality is contagious o.O
Link a WWS and we can tell you more. If you don't run it, I suggest you start as it is an invaluable tool to help people improve.