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jimbo831
04-15-2009, 03:45 PM
I am having some difficulty deciding on the new spec I would like to use now that 3.1 is out. Before the patch, I was an unholy tank, but in losing 10% avoidance from Blade Barrier, my bone shield will never stay up as long, so I'm probably going to go frost.

The talents in particular that I'm having a hard time with are Icy Talons (plus improved Icy Talons), Morbidity, and Runic Power Mastery. I rarely run with a Shaman and am told the extra melee haste can help me a lot with extra Rune Strikes hitting for threat as well as my raid with the improved version. However, to get this, I have to give up a huge 6 talent points, that sacrifice from threat talents in the blood tree like Bladed Armor and 2H Specialization. Also, I really liked having Morbidity so I could start each trash pull with a DnD and I'm thinking 30 sec would be too long a cooldown to do that. However, since I've never tanked frost, maybe I'll get enough AoE aggro by just doing Howling Blast then Blood Boil x 2. Here are three specs I have come up with so far:

First (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0053320000000000000000000000325050003 5203300030025101351005100000000000000000000000000) : This one has Runic Power mastery so I can have plenty of RP for Frost and Rune Strikes, 1 point in Epidemic to have the 18 second diseases I'm used to from my prepatch unholy build and 5/5 Bladed Armor for all the extra AP. However, it does not have Icy Talons or Imp Icy Talons.

Second (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050300000000000000000000000305050503 5203301030025101351005020000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9767): Here I made some sacrifices to pick up both Icy Talons and 2 points in Morbidity. This will allow me to use DnD on every trash pull. To do this, I had to sacrifice both 2H Spec, Bladed Armor, and Runic Power mastery.

My questions are as follows. Does anyone know how valuable Runic Power Mastery will really be? With the right skill, would I be able to make sure I never let my RP build up to 100, but always have RP for frost strikes and Icebound Fortitude when needed? Also, how valuable is the melee haste from Icy Talons for me? I know it will make me hit Rune Strikes more often which is good for threat, but it comes at a very high cost. At the same time, these extra hits will help build RP quicker with Scent of Blood. Finally, does anybody think that I'm wasting points into morbidity? Will I have any issues holding AoE aggro without it? Any pointers on things I can improve or changes I can make would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Hexen
04-15-2009, 04:40 PM
First (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0053320000000000000000000000325050003 5203300030025101351005100000000000000000000000000) : This one has Runic Power mastery so I can have plenty of RP for Frost and Rune Strikes, 1 point in Epidemic to have the 18 second diseases I'm used to from my prepatch unholy build and 5/5 Bladed Armor for all the extra AP. However, it does not have Icy Talons or Imp Icy Talons.


hello, runic power mastery isnt so useful, you will have a lot of runic power generation with chill of the grave , the glyph of icy touch, a good rotation..
dont take epidemic, the 15 current seconds are quite enough for a sane rotation.
the whole icy talons tree is excellent, haste is very nice now and will free shamans from using windfury for the spell haste totem.



Second (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050300000000000000000000000305050503 5203301030025101351005020000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9767): Here I made some sacrifices to pick up both Icy Talons and 2 points in Morbidity. This will allow me to use DnD on every trash pull. To do this, I had to sacrifice both 2H Spec, Bladed Armor, and Runic Power mastery.

DON'T give up on Bladed Armor, you could loose between 300 and 700 AP, depending on your gear. RPM is overkill, not so useful for a knowledgeful tanky.


At the same time, these extra hits will help build RP quicker with Scent of Blood. Finally, does anybody think that I'm wasting points into morbidity?
either Scent of Blood or Chill of the Grave should be enough. i would go with the second since i am not so sure on the internal cooldown of SoB advertised as removed but not so true.. yep, no morbity.


Will I have any issues holding AoE aggro without it? Any pointers on things I can improve or changes I can make would be much appreciated. Thanks.

ok, to summarize, you can try the following:

- move 2 from Morbity and 3 from Scent of Blood into 5/5 Bladed Armor (threat possible problem almost solved)

- take 3 from Blood of the North and put them into Acclimation, i just tested it, its excellent, i had +100 shadow res. in an encounter in naxxramas tonight., the other 2 points in Merciless Combat and you should put enough damage/threat to be okay.

- i am not so sure about the 5 points in Killing Machine, if your melee attacks are going to be replaced by rune strikes, i am not sure it will proc anymore.. you could play with 3 points in Chillblains to keep mobs glued to you :)

anyway, its kindof late and my post could be wrong in so many levels, please check my talents in armory, my frost tankish spec almost overaggroed the main tankies tonight and kept me pretty much at full health most of the time..
good luck.

jimbo831
04-15-2009, 06:46 PM
Thank you very much for such a thorough reply! A few of the things mentioned, I do have information about from elitist jerks, but you answered a lot of the questions I've had on things I just need to test. I wish Blizzard would give us a couple free respecs after a patch like this so I can try things because often tooltips aren't enough to base decisions on.

Anyway, I did find a few errors in your response, and I'll just point those out first. According to testing done by those at elitistjerks.com, killing machine does in fact proc off of rune strikes, so that's not an issue. From what I've read, I've considered dropping that down to 4/5, but I think the crits will help a ton with threat.

Those same people at elitistjerks are seeming to act like scent of blood is absolutely necessary because of how much RP it generates. Despite the tooltip, it apparently gives 10 RP per strike in testing, and did not have the internal cooldown, but I don't know what to make of that. Who knows whether Blizzard screwed up the tooltip or the mechanics, but something isn't matching. It sounds like you were doing okay though on RP without it tonight.

I personally just don't see the point in Merciless Combat. As far as I can think, if I don't have a good threat lead by the time the boss is down to 35%, I have bigger problems that need to be addressed. With my old unholy build, I usually had a massive threat lead by 75% on most bosses.

My biggest question is regarding Blood of the North. What do you do without the death runes? Do you just use blood strikes all the time? It seems like having this talent to get an extra Obliterate every other time would be huge.

At the same time, I have wondered a lot about Acclimation and it seems like a great talent in situational uses. I have noticed though that a lot of fights in Ulduar seem to use some sort of spell damage, so perhaps it is more useful for that than Naxx where there isn't nearly as much.

I definitely see why Bladed Armor though is probably something to keep. I think I may try without scent of blood and see how I'm doing with RP. It sucks that I lose my IF glyph so I now need to make sure I have RP when doing that, but I guess it will be every 2 min now instead of every min, so not as useful.

Anyway, thanks again for your great reply. If you can think of anything more, please let me know. I just have been so busy working this week, I've haven't had enough testing time.


Edit: Taking a few of the things posted above, I have come up with this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxxxNbIzc0bsst0x:TadmMV) spec here. What does anyone think about this? Thanks.

Varucard
04-16-2009, 01:31 PM
Does anyone know how valuable Runic Power Mastery will really be?

To put it bluntly, RPM sucks for tanking. The reason is that dks have good avoidance. This leads to RS being ur major rp sucker. If you havent done so, macro in RS to every move. This helps out a ton on threat.

Anyways, because of the constant use of RS you will RARELY be sitting at 100 RP. I've been tanking frost for the last month or so and even with bosanc i rarely sit at 100 RP. No reason to max it out if your never going to sit at the cap. Also with the change to IF, you will be using 20 RP for it now always.


With the right skill, would I be able to make sure I never let my RP build up to 100, but always have RP for frost strikes and Icebound Fortitude when needed?

Yup


Also, how valuable is the melee haste from Icy Talons for me?

Not that valuable. Its nice but there are much nicer things in the tree, like blood of the north =)

[qoute]I know it will make me hit Rune Strikes more often which is good for threat, but it comes at a very high cost. At the same time, these extra hits will help build RP quicker with Scent of Blood. [/quote]

I wouldn't pick up Scent of Blood. Its like a crummy version of BoSanc. Now old BoSanc rocked, but for me, personally, I didn't run with a prot pally alot and it didn't hurt me. Again, nice stuff to spend your points on, imo.


Finally, does anybody think that I'm wasting points into morbidity? Will I have any issues holding AoE aggro without it?

I don't like points in morbidity. I had it for awhile, and when i didnt have it it hurt, but i look back and for me as a frost tank, it was waste. With another tank in the raid, while you may not grab every mob with it on CD, your tank buddy will. What I did (hey it worked lol) was actually glyph dnd. That glyph, and no morbidity, allowed me to keep aggro off the two AoE hungry DKs i run stuff with alot (damn wandering plague lol).

[qoute]Any pointers on things I can improve or changes I can make would be much appreciated. Thanks.[/quote]

Don't know if anyone pointed out this spec, but this is what I used 13/51/7 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355000000000000000000000000305050003 5203300030125101351005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=072414040602&version=9757). I don't like CE cuz you gotta wait for a mob to die. By then, you already have good aggro on the other mobs, and plus for a RP dump in frost, FS hits good enough. Reduced DG CD is really not needed as a tank, as we have two taunts.

Subversion lets your Oblit crit more, and with the xtra crit stuff in frost, why the hell not. Bladed armor, coupled with toughness and high tank armor is free AP = more threat.

This works for me as MT and OT for anything pre 3.1. Gave me nice snap aggro, good sustained threat, as well as good mitigation and 'o crap' buttons. Honestly, and I am sure it has been said before, DK tanking is really about what you do. Blizz really did an awesome job on the trees, and so many points can be switched to fit what you do. i.e. 5mans, 10mans, 25mans, MT, OT, etc.