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Satrina
03-17-2009, 09:14 AM
I'd imagine that'll be a 80-85 pound kit in 20ga. steel. Assuming he finds a reasonable way to attach and balance the shoulders, that's fine for walking around in all day.

To contrast, my current kit (for SCA armoured combat) weighs 55 pounds using a mix of aluminum (the aforementioned T6061) and 16ga. steel plates, plus an 8 pound shield in T6061. You can run around whacking at people for hours with that weight with no troubles, and there are guys in all-steel half plate who do the same.

I wouldn't want to do the shaping of T6061 for what that's going to call for. It's a pain to work with just to curve. Titanium is even worse - thought a professional armourer almost certainly has a pneumatic hammer for planishing, which makes up for a lot of gruntwork.

Edit: 2000 pounds! Jousting armour was not what one wore on the field to fight; that was a specific armour made for a specific purpose. Even then, surviving joust armour is about 100 pounds. If balanced properly, that's not impossible to walk around in by any means.

Tatt
03-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Satrina what is SCA combat? And it would help if you told us how big you were, to establish the relationships between combatant size and armor weight.

Satrina
03-17-2009, 09:41 AM
SCA armoured combat is a combat sport using rattan swords and real armour with full speed and force blows. You use steel over vulnerable points: head, shoulders, elbows, wrists/hands, knees, kidneys, neck/spine, etc.; some of those allow for heavy hardened leather. Unless you're really good or really pain tolerant (or really dumb), you armour most of the rest of the common impact spots as well, especially the forearm. People who don't wear vambraces generally learn that they should the hard way.

I call it a combat sport because unlike the rapier combat I practice where we study from extant period manuals for rapier fighting (Saviolo, Pallas Armata, Giganti, et. al.), the armoured combat is only partially derived from period sources (I.33, Talhoffer, etc.) but more from evolving the style over time with human kinetics and some influence from other martial forms.

Combat happens in tournement format between individual combatants (e.g. individual combat (http://windrosearmoury.com/images/gallery_images/Hannes_Potrero_1.jpg)), and as large scale battles (e.g. siege battle (http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/images/ArtGallery/BattlePics/2005/Rome%20at%20Pennsic%2034%20Causeway%20Battle.jpg) or mass melee (http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/images/ArtGallery/BattlePics/2006/SCA_Pennsic_35_Rome_Unsterblichen.jpg))

I stand 5'11 and weigh about 225 lb right now. By summer I'll be back down in the 190 range. When I am at ideal weight, I often do two mile runs in full armour minus helm/weapon/shield - about 50 pounds of kit - for conditioning. Nothing your typical soldier hasn't done throughout history!

Bryenne
03-17-2009, 09:42 AM
Satrina what is SCA combat?

SCA.org (http://www.sca.org/)

Satrina
03-17-2009, 10:03 AM
Here's one you're going to love! Here's the proposed proportions for the shield and the axe. I think in the end I'm going to end up with the shield at around 39". I told him larger was probably best for the Bulwark of Azzinoth, but 48" just seems amazingly large and too unwieldy for even a costume armor set. :)

Sounds about right. My melee shield is 36 inches tall. When holding it so the top corner is just under my eye level, the bottom point is covering my knees. Taller guys use slightly taller shields. I have seen a shield wall of 48" shields before, but that's a very specific formation that uses polearms behind to do the actual fighting behind the defensive wall.


Satrina, curious, are different size swords allowed? For example, you say that you compete at 5'11" and 190 pounds.....I typically walk around in my best shape well over 40-50 pounds heavier than that....would someone like myself be allowed to use a weapon which size allowed an advantage? Or is it more of a speed and precision event?
You can use one handed weapons (up to 4 feet), two handed weapons that can still be used to slash (to 7.5 feet), spears (to 12 feet). You can make axes, swords, whatever - except for flails and other weapons with jointing that could wrap around an opponent's limb. (there is also allowance for thrown weapons and bows/crossbows)

A lot of people assume that a guy who is 6'5" using a 6' sword has an unfair advantage over a 5'11 guy using a 48" sword, or even that a tall guy with a 48" sword has an advantage over a shorter guy with a 36" sword (that's what mine is). That's pretty quickly disabused :)

Edit: Look at it this way: You want me to be around 6 feet away from you to make ideal attacks (arm + sword), while I want you to be 5 feet away. I step in and use my shield to limit your range of useable vectors (assuming we're both right handed). Who has the advantage now, and who is trying to backpedal out?

Krumgork
03-17-2009, 12:08 PM
So, I don't know much (read: anything) about SCA. Do people do fantasy combat stuff, too, or is it all reinactment stuff - kinda like the civil war fanatics?

Beshara
03-17-2009, 12:22 PM
Less pure re-enactment and more an idealized version of Medieval/Renaissance stuff - and yeah, the combat section gets into crazy antics on a regular basis. We hold wars. It's great.

The SCA website (http://sca.org/) is a good place to start for general info - I only really get involved in small-group melee combat and a little armorsmithing, so that's all I can really describe well.

Shierky
03-17-2009, 12:47 PM
Ahh yes the SCA I was apart of them here in Canada, sadly thou I think they are a dyeing breed where I live, /sigh

I wish I could have stayed active tons of fun with awesome people all gathered for the same reason..

An Tir FTW

Tatt
03-17-2009, 01:04 PM
Satrina I was not asking about weapon size for range as much as for fighting style...As in as a fencer I am guessing that your style of swordfighting is very fast paced and articulate. Are their players who are able to use actual strength, as in overwhelming a shield block, to win? I read the word "rattan" and think that too much force would damage the weapons, but really not sure.

<edit to snip details from onslaught armour thread>

Satrina
03-17-2009, 01:28 PM
Satrina I was not asking about weapon size for range as much as for fighting style...As in as a fencer I am guessing that your style of swordfighting is very fast paced and articulate. Are their players who are able to use actual strength, as in overwhelming a shield block, to win? I read the word "rattan" and think that too much force would damage the weapons, but really not sure.

I have distinct styles between fencing and armoured combat; they're very different forms. Fencing is a lightest touch combat, and is based not at all on strength but on leverage and precision. With that said, armoured is not really based on strength either. Your basic swing starts from your foot as you push off to swivel your hips, which translates through as rotation of the shoulders. By the time your arm gets into the act, it is pretty much only to guide the blow which has plenty of power at that point. There are some strong guys who can generate that sort of power solely from the arm and shoulder, but very few who can keep it up for any length of time - it's really inefficient. I've taken hits from some relatively small ladies that rang my bell pretty damn well!

You can use strength to overwhelm a shield, but generally only because the shield user didn't have very good form. If your opponent does not raise the shield high enough and you hit the top, you can use that to table the shield out so that your attack skips over the top and through to the head. You can do the exact same thing with proper swing form, too, though. If you get your shield in a correct block position, it doesn't matter how hard the hit lands, it's going to stop on the shield.

The rattan swords are 1-1/4 inch diameter through the blade, generally reinforced with fiber tape for longevity. It will eventually pulp itself, but that can take a pretty long time depending on how much you play. I personally use the alternate allowed version which is 1-1/4" OD siloflex PVC cored with rattan lathed down to fit exactly inside with a friction mount and set with a screw at the crossguard. I use that mainly because the shaved rattan diameter makes a grip diameter that I am more used to without shaving the rattan down myself (which is a pain), but it does tend to last longer than straight up rattan.

The question I get most is whether there's any value crossing between styles. Fencing does come in handy when thrusting with rattan, yep, and it's no coincidence that my rattan sword and fencing swords are cut to be the the same length from the point of grip to the tip. There are couple of interesting moves that I've found myself using when fencing that definitely come from armoured.

Satrina
03-17-2009, 01:44 PM
I branched this out of the Onslaught Armour thread so that it can stay on topic

Horacio
03-17-2009, 01:49 PM
Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster by your side.....

sorry, had to do it.

Tatt
03-17-2009, 03:39 PM
Satrina I ask simply because I have never had fast hands or feet, gave up trying a long time ago. When I did fight semi competitively I had to play let the idiot hit my arms for a few mintues till I found a good opening and then hit him with a haymaker. Wondering if your sword combat can work similarly, or if fast guys will always whip the crap out of the slower ones. And no I would not try to swing from my shoulders every time, when I train it is always whole body core movements to start. I am actually one of the only people I know who still enjoys clean and jerks and deadlifts, not just sitting under a bench press all day.

Galushi
03-17-2009, 04:58 PM
This is like more badass LARP'ing.

I approve.

Kinda wish i had the time and money for something like this.

Larkan
03-17-2009, 08:10 PM
Heh, Ive thought about fighting SCA some. I currently play amtgard during the weekends over in washington, which is much faster paced combat game, without the need for the heavy armor for protection... that sorta thing. Fantasy elements and all.

How large are the SCA groups up in canada?

Blˇˇdfrenzy
03-17-2009, 08:12 PM
I LARP, I go to SCA and compete. Do you go to Pennsic at all Satrina?

Hit Me
03-18-2009, 07:28 AM
I had a friend who was really involved in SCA. They would always go to some huge event that's somewhere here in the eastern US. They would talk about how they had parties at night where there were girls at the front checking the guys' junk before they would let them in.

I wish I could remember the name of the event. It was an annual thing and it was the only one they really talked up.

Anyways, he tried to get me into the combat aspect of it because he thought that I would enjoy it. They only explained the big battles and sieges and things like that. He never mentioned a tournament format. The way he described it turned me off though. It seemed sort of like when you pretend sword fight as a kid. You know, you get one armed hit, so you have to put it behind your back.

It would be a lot more appealing to me if you got to beat the hell out of people until they had enough and quit. I guess that's not really practical in a big battle situation. It would probably result in a lot of injuries, but they could probably do that if they have one on one competitions. Set it up like armored MMA. You have a ref to determine when a combatant can no longer defend themself and you give them the option of submitting if they would like. That would be fun as hell.

Satrina
03-18-2009, 09:02 AM
Responding to a bunch:


I had a friend who was really involved in SCA. They would always go to some huge event that's somewhere here in the eastern US. They would talk about how they had parties at night where there were girls at the front checking the guys' junk before they would let them in.

I wish I could remember the name of the event. It was an annual thing and it was the only one they really talked up.
That would be Pennsic and that particular party is the men without pants party, yep. Also Strawberry Surprise (http://everything2.com/title/Strawberry%2520Surprise). Pennsic is you and 10,000 of your closest friends... the nightlife is pretty awesome.

I haven't been in a few years for one reason or another. I'm most likely going this year.

If battles went on until you could no longer take it, it'd be an awfully long battle that most likely was won by the combatant with the best aerobic endurance. Armour distributes the blows very well, as you would expect - a sword is a means to concentrate force, while armour is a means to distribute it. I've sparred with a partner full speed for 45 minutes, just calling the blows when they land. It would make for a dreadfully long and boring tournament. While there are marshals that oversee battles, judging is mostly on the honour of the combatants. A fair amount of training is in the judgement of blows landing. Marshals will sometimes step in if someone is deliberately ignoring good blows, but that's pretty rare (as in, usually unnecessary).

There's a fair number of SCA in Canada. Ontario has enough people to have been divided into its own kingdom (funnily enough, a unit of political division used, along with barnonies, cantons, shires, etc.) The groups in around Toronto and Vancouver are pretty big, and varying sizes all over. Also, anywhere there's a military presence, there tends to be SCA - there used to be a group on the USS Nimitz (not sure if it's still active or not.)

Speed is not everything. Some of the best fighters that have ever handed my ass to me looked something like this (http://www.thelope.com/images/10-9-015knights.jpg)

Galushi
03-18-2009, 09:07 AM
hahah i read that part about Strawberry Surprise...thats hilarious.

Hit Me
03-18-2009, 09:48 AM
Responding to a bunch:


That would be Pennsic and that particular party is the men without pants party, yep. Also Strawberry Surprise (http://everything2.com/title/Strawberry%2520Surprise). Pennsic is you and 10,000 of your closest friends... the nightlife is pretty awesome.

I haven't been in a few years for one reason or another. I'm most likely going this year.

If battles went on until you could no longer take it, it'd be an awfully long battle that most likely was won by the combatant with the best aerobic endurance. Armour distributes the blows very well, as you would expect - a sword is a means to concentrate force, while armour is a means to distribute it. I've sparred with a partner full speed for 45 minutes, just calling the blows when they land. It would make for a dreadfully long and boring tournament. While there are marshals that oversee battles, judging is mostly on the honour of the combatants. A fair amount of training is in the judgement of blows landing. Marshals will sometimes step in if someone is deliberately ignoring good blows, but that's pretty rare (as in, usually unnecessary).

There's a fair number of SCA in Canada. Ontario has enough people to have been divided into its own kingdom (funnily enough, a unit of political division used, along with barnonies, cantons, shires, etc.) The groups in around Toronto and Vancouver are pretty big, and varying sizes all over. Also, anywhere there's a military presence, there tends to be SCA - there used to be a group on the USS Nimitz (not sure if it's still active or not.)

Speed is not everything. Some of the best fighters that have ever handed my ass to me looked something like this (http://www.thelope.com/images/10-9-015knights.jpg) Yeah, the Men Without Pants party rings a bell. I vaguely recall them talking about drinking something with pepper spray in it as well. I'm also just a few hours away from Slippery Rock, PA, so that's definitely what they were talking about.

I didn't really think of how little damage is actually done and how it would affect a contest. I figured that getting clubbed would hurt like hell regardless of what you were wearing. Are the weapons relatively lightweight or something? Some of them look pretty hefty and I would think you could inflict enough trauma to discourage people from ever wanting to get hit again.

Satrina
03-18-2009, 10:04 AM
My sword weighs about 2.5 pounds, similar to a real sword of the same size. The balance is different, though, but what d'you expect from a stick? =) I've taken a my share of whacks upside the head from a 6' polearm that ring your bell for sure. For safety's sake you aren't allowed to swing a long weapon through more than 90 degrees of arc during an attack. The hits that really hurt are the ones that land where your armour is not. I had a bruise the size of my hand with fingers splayed on my butt that raised to about 1/2". I've seen a guy take a hit to the helm that left a crease in 16 ga. steel. He shook his head and went whooeee!... but we only noticed the dent when the fight ended.

That said, the worst pain I ever experienced while fighting was from my first go at making vambraces that attached to my elbow cup. It pinched on my forearm every swing, and I still have scars there today from it.

Taelas
03-18-2009, 10:16 AM
Meh, sounds as if you take the greatest advantages of swords away. One, you fight with armor, two, your swords are made of wood. :p Armored combat favors blunt weapons over edged.

Kazeyonoma
03-18-2009, 10:18 AM
yeh, i want to try it now. 198 proof O_o, won't that make you blind?

Satrina
03-18-2009, 10:26 AM
Meh, sounds as if you take the greatest advantages of swords away. One, you fight with armor, two, your swords are made of wood. :p Armored combat favors blunt weapons over edged.

I really don't understand people who would be against armour. Is it some macho cool nonsense? I've seen dumbasses who refuse to wear vambraces on the weapon arm get their forearm broken. I like armour, it means I don't actually hurt my friends so we can fight again later.

There are plenty of groups who use metal swords for broadsword play. Their rules and armour are much more restrictive, and generally it's slower action.

Hit Me
03-18-2009, 10:27 AM
My sword weighs about 2.5 pounds, similar to a real sword of the same size. The balance is different, though, but what d'you expect from a stick? =) I've taken a my share of whacks upside the head from a 6' polearm that ring your bell for sure. For safety's sake you aren't allowed to swing a long weapon through more than 90 degrees of arc during an attack. The hits that really hurt are the ones that land where your armour is not. I had a bruise the size of my hand with fingers splayed on my butt that raised to about 1/2". I've seen a guy take a hit to the helm that left a crease in 16 ga. steel. He shook his head and went whooeee!... but we only noticed the dent when the fight ended.

That said, the worst pain I ever experienced while fighting was from my first go at making vambraces that attached to my elbow cup. It pinched on my forearm every swing, and I still have scars there today from it.

What other rules do they have? Are you only allowed to strike with your weapon or can you strike with your hands and feet as well? I think it would be badass to kick some dude in the chest to get some space before smashing him over the melon with a stick.

Satrina
03-18-2009, 10:30 AM
Uh, no. That's not exactly safe. See previous point about not wanting to hurt our friends.

Hit Me
03-18-2009, 10:32 AM
Uh, no. That's not exactly safe. See previous point about not wanting to hurt our friends. I guess I didn't think a punch of a kick would be too much of an injury risk when the other person is covered in armor.

Taelas
03-18-2009, 10:34 AM
I really don't understand people who would be against armour. Is it some macho cool nonsense? I've seen dumbasses who refuse to wear vambraces on the weapon arm get their forearm broken. I like armour, it means I don't actually hurt my friends so we can fight again later.

There are plenty of groups who use metal swords for broadsword play. Their rules and armour are much more restrictive, and generally it's slower action.

No, no. :) Armor should definitely be used for protection. I'm just saying, edged weapons like swords aren't really that effective against armor. Blunt weapons like maces are.

I'm just being fastidious. :p Carry on. ;)

Taelas
03-18-2009, 10:35 AM
I guess I didn't think a punch of a kick would be too much of an injury risk when the other person is covered in armor.

Pretty sure Sat meant it wouldn't be safe for the person doing the punching and the kicking.

Satrina
03-18-2009, 10:35 AM
It's not very easy to fall gracefully in 50+ pounds of armour, and you get all shapes and sizes of opponent. Very easy to do bad things to joints. Besides, what would be the use in punching a guy who is wearing armour? Also, you lift your leg and I whack you for it, possibly tripping you with no warning instead, also potentially injurious if you land tailbone down or whatever. The compressive stresses on your spine would be incredible.

We've done shows for medieval themed events where we do kick, punch, and slam shields. That's with lots of practice beforehand and with opponents of known ability.

Hit Me
03-18-2009, 10:57 AM
It's not very easy to fall gracefully in 50+ pounds of armour, and you get all shapes and sizes of opponent. Very easy to do bad things to joints. Besides, what would be the use in punching a guy who is wearing armour? Also, you lift your leg and I whack you for it, possibly tripping you with no warning instead, also potentially injurious if you land tailbone down or whatever. The compressive stresses on your spine would be incredible.

We've done shows for medieval themed events where we do kick, punch, and slam shields. That's with lots of practice beforehand and with opponents of known ability.
Yeah, falling would suck in those. I would also probably freak out if I was in the middle of one of the big crushes I just saw on youtube.

I'd punch for the same reason I'd hit them with a stick. To try to win. It looks like there's a lot of clashing, pushing and shoving. It also looks like you need some room to attack effectively. It seems like straight to the helm would create that much needed space. They have hand protection so it wouldn't hurt and a punch would probably be more jarring than getting hit with a stick, anyways.

Satrina
03-18-2009, 11:45 AM
They have hand protection so it wouldn't hurt and a punch would probably be more jarring than getting hit with a stick, anyways.

Not really, no. As noted, I've seen sword blows crease steel helms, and I've spent a pretty good length of time banging curves out of my legplates and body armour. You're just not going to hit nearly that hard with your fist. And while you're opening your side that much just to make a punch, your opponent is backhanding your open sword side right to the ribs if he has any wits about him (one of those rare times when using your shoulder for strength to augment the short core twist helps).

Now getting down and coming up shield pushing your opponent - that works!

Beshara
03-18-2009, 10:48 PM
Ahh, the shield-shove. One of my best friends in group melee. Nobody expects the short lady with the tower shield!

I've only done sword-and-board and polearm - got my ass handed to me once by a duke fighting Florentine and I'm tempted to start learning that. The lack of a shield makes me a little nervous though.

I've never been to one of the major wars, but hopefully I'll get around to it soon. Need to finish my armor first.

Hit Me
03-19-2009, 06:02 AM
Not really, no. As noted, I've seen sword blows crease steel helms, and I've spent a pretty good length of time banging curves out of my legplates and body armour. You're just not going to hit nearly that hard with your fist. And while you're opening your side that much just to make a punch, your opponent is backhanding your open sword side right to the ribs if he has any wits about him (one of those rare times when using your shoulder for strength to augment the short core twist helps).

Now getting down and coming up shield pushing your opponent - that works!
That's precisely it. The sword concentrates the energy of the blow into a very small area. It will certainly do more penetrative damage to something like armor. There's no way a fist could crease a helm. It's bigger, slower, heaver and it's energy is going to be less concentrated. Instead of denting or creasing the helm, a punch is going to move the entire helm and anything in it.

I don't really know how the helms are constructed though. What kind of shock absorption do they have? Is it just a metal helm resting on your skull? If so, I can see how getting it creased would hurt a hell of a lot more since that impact would transfer directly to your skull.

The gym that I go to used to have a Kenjutsu program. If we got bored, we'd mess around and beat each other with sticks for a while. The men of the bogu had braces that kept the helm from actually resting on your head. It was more like a netting, but it acted the same way that the inflatable chambers and foam pads in a football helmet do. They were just there to create a little space between the skull and the outer shell to help absorb energy. With a men, you could get blasted with a katana and it wouldn't hurt that much. You were aware that you were struck and it wasn't comfortable, but it wouldn't ring your bell. If you got punched or kicked in the head while wearing a men, it felt just a little less traumatic than if you hadn't been wearing anything at all. Sometimes, if the thing slammed into your face or got turned a strange way, it would hurt even more than if you had no protective equipment.

I guess that's why I thought incorporating 8 limb striking in addition to striking with your weapon would be effective. I'm kind of ignorant to the SCA combat and because of that ignorance, I have a lot of misconceptions about it.