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Fryed
03-16-2009, 06:32 AM
How do you kick the rep. of being a training/gearing guild?

My wife and i run a casual/raiding guild that for the past, almost two years, have recruited none stop those that are at or near our progression lvl. We have lost more people in that time then i care to count to higher content raid guilds who (i found out through the grape vine)had been pointing out our guild to join till that person was ready.

We have always tried to conduct ourselves fairly with our guildies...help the new one catch up, get them the gear to make em as strong a player as possible, even giving up raid spots for untried and weaker players who needed to work on teamwork and guild srtatagies for diffrent bosses, just to have those people not catch on to the "GUILD FIRST" motto we practice and progress as a whole and leave.

The problem now being that our loyal to the core members and management want to step it up and recruit to the 25 man events, Witch is what myself and our officers have trying to do the whole time.

I,ve done my homework, (most resently with the most help from Tankspot), and still am comming up short in the recruitment department. From what some of my unasked for responces in several chat channels have been is..."You guys will never hit 25 man raid statues":(

ANY help would be greatful,

Fryed, Dark Phoenix Guardians (Greymane)

Optimoos
03-16-2009, 06:44 AM
My former guild of which I was GM had a similar issue, although we were in 25 man content in BC. Many people would come to us as a guild who were progressing through content but we were far from hardcore and our best players would eventually get bored with the slower pace of progression and look for greener pastures - this included myself when the summer lull hit before Wrath's release last year.

It is difficult to walk the line between being a casual guild and keeping better players happy. I think the best advice I can offer is to formalize as much of your raiding procedure as possible - have a loot distribution system that is going to reward attendance/performance/attitude; make sure people are coming prepared, reward those who are, and sit those who aren't. Make sure people understand that you're serious about the "rules" surrounding the raid. If you tell people that coming unprepared (no food/flasks) is unacceptable and they continue to do it, make sure you're willing to follow through by sitting them out for a period of time. Conversely, make sure you have backups who are ready to fill in when you have to sit someone. I found simply laying down some simple rules (and ones that were not difficult to meet) helped our raids, while still casual, run smoother and more efficient which in turn made our better players happier.

People will always come and go, you're not going to be able to stop that completely. Until you have a full guild roster for doing 25s, get as many people together as you can and pug the rest. If you impress the pugs, you'll eventually pick up some more people so that your 25s become guild only.

Fryed
03-16-2009, 10:21 AM
Was afraid you where going to say that. We do have raid rules in place and for the most part our 10 man raiders do follow then. (which in it self was a tough road expecially rules about vent)

Its the Pug part that makes me cringe. We did try to pug 25's in TBC which always turned out to be a disaster. About half your raiders refuse to pug outside the guild now because of it.(im the biggest one against pugging) However....if thats the only way to get my guild to grow...i guess ill have to bite the bullet.

Thanks much for the responce, and any other thoughts on the matter...please....feel free

Fryed

Ohnoto
03-17-2009, 08:17 AM
I am the GM of a casual raiding guild. My guild started out as a leveling guild and then moved onto doing Karazhan just 3-4 months prior to Wrath releasing. We had several come to our guild, get geared and then leave for getting into Black Temple before the expansion and felt some of the frustrations that you have.

Over the course of a couple weeks we geared up the same people and then brought in 1 under geared person to get geared. This idea has stayed the same to this day, in that we would have the same people in Naxxramas for a couple weeks until we had cleared it out 1-2 times and then bring in new players and move through the raid quickly. This would allow us to be able to raid the content that we could and mean that if someone did leave it didn't stop us.

As far as our reputation that started getting eliminated over time as we would joint run 25s with other guilds and soon building up a name of being good raiders and fair to all players. While we may not be the number one guild on our server, that is not our goal. Our goal is to enjoy the game and see content that the game has to offer.

As far as puggers go:
Do not fear that lonely pugged person. When we started doing Naxxramas we would usually have 9 from our guild and have to PUG one person. We would even occansionally get one from a higher end guild that just didn't get into his run for the week. What this led to was that they saw that we goof around some in the raids, but we also get them done in a timely manner and have fun doing so. More times than not that pugged player would apply on our website and get into the guild.

More recently we started pushing hard for 25s and in doing so we lost part of our guild, and more than just players. Its easier to be more relaxed and have fun in the 10s but when you get to 25s its harder as you have to keep 24 other people motivated and working together.

We have always considered ourselves to be casual but when we decided to push for 25s we had to add a few extra rules, mainly involving looting. Our officers aggreed that it was the fairest system with how we were setting it up. While many of our members wanted to do the 25s, we would only get about 14-18 sign on for raids, thus making us have to pug others and just do /roll for items instead of the DKP we and the members wanted to do.

After 2 weeks of having to pug others many got frustrated and we had about 10-15 people leave the guild. Many did it at once, some did realm transfers. While this weeded out many of the uncommited / younger crowd of the guild, it did set us back some. Now we just stick to 10s in the guild and every member is open to getting into 25s on his/her own.

I hope that you have read this. As you can see from my own expierences there are some good and some bads to pugging. Just do not let a fear of a pugger detour you. While they may not be commited and only there for some extra loot, you will occansionally find that as long as they are treated good and fair during the run that they will sometimes join your guild.

If you really want to push 25s, don't let the "You will never reach that" arguement get to you. I spent alot of time on the recruitment forums on WoW and got many recruits from there. Just find those that look to fit your guild style and set up and talk to some people there or get on their server and talk to them.

Most importantly though, do not let the growth ruin your unique guild or your guild spirit. Stick to what works for you and your guild. For us, its 10 mans. We have always performed much better in 10s than 25s.

Jackripster
03-17-2009, 08:59 AM
Theres little doubt your in the hard slog mode, recruiting is very time consuming and your working hard to iron out the little flaws in your guild's systems.

One of the things we found is that the better players arent always the best players for your guild. Better players have likely been in 25 man guilds and are used to certain standards. Many have issues and love e-drama so cant stay still anywhere for long, for others you might just be less advanced than first thought. Losing these players hurts, as gear leaves the raid and costs time having to recruit and start over.

We found being upfront right from the start worked best. Tell them you are in a building stage and looking for people to grow with the guild, that there might be pugs (rolling), you might have to call off raids and to get used to wiping. While some 'better' players might pass you by you'll likely be ahead in the long run.

Also stepping up is not only a challenge for the officers but also for the player base. They might like the idea at first, but might find the extra commitment or loss of intimacy from a 10 man just doesnt suit. Also figure out what your guild stands for, why would people join it? Whats different about it compared to other guilds recruiting? Sell that when interviewing prospective raiders, if they have a similar needs your half way to there to having a great guildy.

zander1976
03-18-2009, 08:44 AM
Hello,

It takes some work to convert your guild to a progression guild, we went through a few mergers in the process but that didn't really work out aside from help disband the guild and create a new guild with all the hardcore raiders in it. But something we did learn in the processes (this was back when 10 and 25 man were different).

Setting the tone:

First we set specific raid nights come ready and on time. As mentioned here its your job to make sure there is something to raid. If we didn't have enough for 25 then we would do 10 mans. If we had 18 we would do 2 10 mans. Group 1 would be 10 man and group 2 would be the hardcore players that want to test themselves and run it 8 man.

Mixing strong players with weak, we found that having one strong group and one weak group upset people. Mixing groups got people working together but also was a good way to get people teaching each other and competing against each other.

Recruiting:

Recruiting people is the key to making the transition. First, formalize your recruiting. Applications require people to be committed to your guild before they even fill it out. We would chat with people then send them to the website to fill it out and then we would invite them. If someone doesn't want to take the time to fill it out he isn't that committed.

Recruiting only level 80 characters and only well geared 80s. Take a look at what is considered ok gear to good geared and start there as a line for recruit acceptance. You can make acceptations for lower geared people because they are motivated and not the rule of we will let anybody in. Motivated people don't like no and will quickly fix whatever reason they weren't allowed in.

Your need to look for motivated and committed people. When talking to people you can figure out if they have a plan or if they simply want to ride along to get free epics. If a person has looked up were to get the enchants has taken the time to spec and try to gear for raiding then you can overlook the lack of gear because they have a goal, knowledge and motivation to get better.

Loot Rules:

The big thing thatís going to hurt you to do is to not allow new recruits to lot at all during raiding and make this period a long period if you have a rep for gearing people. That will get rid of the people that were applying for another guild and were pointed your way. I personally recommend 1-2 weeks depending on how often you raid of them going along and not getting any loot.

We us a system in 10 mans of Mains first and off specs ( this is mostly for alts anyway ) and trial roll together but our main raiding ( 25 mans ) are mains only trials can come if we have room but they get nothing. If there is something they could use and nobody else wants it it still gets DEíd. Seems harsh at first but there is no point in gearing someone elseís guild that includes using that shard to enchant a mains gear. If they donít gquit when that happens then you at least know they arenít here just for loot.

Guild policy:
Donít make it acceptable to be shopping for guilds. Itís not acceptable in real life to be dating one person to fill in while you look for the right person. If your members are applying for other guilds remove them from the guild right away. They are going to leave anyway and it is kind of funny when people do this and get dumped by both sides.

Bodasafa
03-18-2009, 03:58 PM
There is some good advice above, I would also recommend that you see if your guild members have good relations with another guild your size. A guild merger of 2 small casual guilds is what got ours off the ground to become the progression 25 man raiding guild we have become.

Glaive
03-19-2009, 08:37 AM
Ive read you post and we faced the same situation back when we started our raiding guild in august of last year.

Today we are one of the top 30 raid guilds on EU- Kilrogg. You can check our track record of current content on wowjutsu if you feel inclined.

When we started we were a small guild, originally 20 players from Portugal. We have allways raided late nights, due to most of us working.

From day one we have been told by all the "better" guilds that we would never graduate from 10 man to 25.

The content cleared on wowjutsu clearly proves them wrong.

Shortly into the TBC content we started getting a number of people whispering to join us, because they had heard we were a new Kara raiding guild.

Those same people would come, stay a few week getting gear from our raids and leave. We would also get information about other top raiding guilds marking us for their members as a easy way to gear up and then later join them.

This became slowly a source of problems, raising up and reaching a all time high when we would pugg because we didnt have the numbers to run raids in 25 man places such as SSC, or Gruul.

The result was that we took two radical determinations.

1.- We started to use the DKP system. The current one is visible on our guild website.

2.- We made a ard and fast rule, no one coming in fresh from the street so to speak would be awarded any items.

If an item was not needed by anyone who had been long in the guild and had DKPs, the item would go for disenchanting, it would not go for those new players.

This created a message for the newcomers, if you are joining because of getting fast gear and then out to rejoin your old guild or leaving to join a "bigger and better one", you will go away with your hands empty.

The second step was establishing ranks, which are clearly distinct, and differentiate between those in the guild which are dedicated to our progress, and those which are on trial.

Finally another defining factor is knowing when to bend the DKP points rules as an officer or raid leader. Fairness is not inherent to any static system of points.

EP/GP or DKP systems arent exact and cannot predict most situations, they are a base to work from. Sometimes if a player hanst got enough points to buy an item for the established cost, we will give the player the item for whatever points the player has, other times, we will allow them to enter temporarily the "negative" DKP zone.

Most players will only get one item per run, and will accumulate some amount of points for the next item that drops in the next run.

Further, by having more points they are guaranteed to be able to buy more items per run, making their gearing faster.

It will also ensure they drop many DKPs in the process because they buy a lot of items, making those that couldnt afford because they didnt have the most DKP, suddenly break above the "water" and be in the shoes of those that have a lot of DKPS, thus sepnding them more freely on the items they need.

Its important to note that it will get to a point were people no longer need gear and will just hoard DKPS. Thats a thing we are facing now, and are trying to find a way to deal with it.

One very important fact, is that we do not allow people to pass on gear they may profit from, and thus proft the guild's raiding ability, to avoid people hoarding DKPS because "Im saving to get the tier pieces".

The reputation issue is another matter entirely and has several parts that you can solve easily.

Our motto is that we are not on the server to make ourselves infamous.

Thus, players causing issues outside the guild, disrespecting guild rules, etc... get kicked, no questions asked.

Those who leave to later state they want to come back, and they left because of some disagreement with guild rules or another member are not allowed back either.

Players who are disruptive during a raid will be fined in whatever DKP amount seems fit according to the severity of the disturbance they caused, and can go from a verbal warning, a chat, or DKP loss, the loss being from 1 DKP to all of the DKPs the player has accumulated.

If we need to have a pugg come along for a particular raid, we quickly explain what our loot system works like, before any boss killing is done.

If they like it they will stay if not, they will leave.

What rules we use are posted on the website link I put above, you can read them up there also.

We try and keep track of those whom we have pugged previously, keeping an eye out for people who will really shine on their visits with us, that allows us to recruit people who have shown us in the game how good they really are and how comitted to raiding they are.

Those players that really shine will mostly be unguilded or in a casual guild, they will appreciuate the fact that you keep track of how many bosses they have killed with you.

You may even want to keep a list, awarding them DKPs as well if they pugg with you regularly, thus the next few times they come you can inform them that they have points standing and may redeem them for items in the same manner a guild member would.

Overall its a game of fairness, but Id like to leave you with a warning, fairness doesnt have anything to do with being "soft hearted".

Your members work hard, hardest of all, to bring progess to your guild, they are the only ones that matter.

Privilege them over others so they feel like they matter to all in the guild, that brings about loyalty.

Tell your members how proud and happy you are when they achieve a new milestone for the guild, post the congratulations in the forums of your website. This will bring a sense of achievement, unity, and pride in your tabard and will slowly but surely build you a team of dedicated raiders, gunning for end-game content.

All I can say now a days is that getting our guild up and to the point were we are would definetly fit into the achievement "What a strange long trip it has been".

Keep up your efforts and dont worry, if you and you officers and the majority of your players are set on 25 man content progression dont let the nay-sayers put you down, and accept as we did, that they may think that, but you know otherwise and will raid 25 man.

Hope it helps you some, and sorry for the wall of text.

Fryed
03-19-2009, 08:41 AM
Agreed, and i do aprieciate all the good advise. We did merge with another guild with the same like mind during TBC. Was the best thing we ever did and after the typical post merge drama, it turned out to be a REALLY good 10 man team.

Since I Have initially made this post, i have recruited 6 people.(2 of which came from our first Wrath, guild hosted pug of OS 25) Apperintly i didnt do to good of a job on the questions i asked of them because they havent been on, or signed up for, any guild runs since. But it is progress and i will continue to keep the ball rolling.

I definatly credit any progress to the good advise i have read for this site and all of you. I will be makeing out an application for guild membership(something we didnt currently have) and as far as posting what we stand for as a guild, potental members cant miss it.....home page of our website......first paragragh, and we pride ourselves on keeping to it. (Guild portal Dark Phoenix Guardians if anyone wants to check it out and comment on inprovments)

Fryed

Satrina
03-19-2009, 08:55 AM
This is a good thread. I'll stress that a solid set of policies that are kept up to date and adjusted as necessary are one of the best recruiting tools you can have. One of the most common statements we get on applications is something along the lines of I really like how you lay out exactly what the guild stands for and aims at, and it's exactly what I am looking for. Leaving as few fuzzy areas as possible just makes your guild run better.

The response (edit: two posts) above me is pretty good, but I do have some comments on the DKP parts.

We made a ard and fast rule, no one coming in fresh from the street so to speak would be awarded any items.

If an item was not needed by anyone who had been long in the guild and had DKPs, the item would go for disenchanting, it would not go for those new players.

To this I'll say that if your pont system is set up in a rational manner, recruits should get items that will otherwise rot. While saying that recruits should not expect gear is a decent way to turn away the lootwhores, it can also turn away potentially valuable members because when it comes down to it, we're all here to improve our gear to progress. It's not necessarily a bad policy, but it does have benefits and drawbacks. I'd rather give recruits gear even if they end up being declined, personally. It's not like you are losing anything.

Finally another defining factor is knowing when to bend the DKP points rules as an officer or raid leader. Fairness is not inherent to any static system of points.

I disagree with this very strongly. It's absolutely true that points systems are not fair. They are impartial, which is their biggest strength. If you have a set of rules that you break in the interest of "fairness", you might just as well go to loot council.

EP/GP or DKP systems arent exact and cannot predict most situations, they are a base to work from. Sometimes if a player hanst got enough points to buy an item for the established cost, we will give the player the item for whatever points the player has, other times, we will allow them to enter temporarily the "negative" DKP zone.

In the specific case of EPGP, there is no such thing as "not enough points" or negative points. It's a pair of increasing totals that are used as a ratio. If you don't understand the system, don't try to speak to it.

Its important to note that it will get to a point were people no longer need gear and will just hoard DKPS. Thats a thing we are facing now, and are trying to find a way to deal with it.

One very important fact, is that we do not allow people to pass on gear they may profit from, and thus proft the guild's raiding ability, to avoid people hoarding DKPS because "Im saving to get the tier pieces".

This is why we use EPGP. Points decay, so you either use them or lose them. There is no point hoarding, and hence no need to force loot on people, which is a terrible policy.

Satrina
03-19-2009, 09:10 AM
More!

First off, a caveat: We're a dedicated raiding guild. We don't do signups; you joined the guild to raid and if you're online during the specified raid times, you're either in the raid or doing something that can be interrupted in 5 minutes or less when called to join the raid (this is, of course, trivially easy now). What we do is not 100% for everyone, but it all applies to some extent to every guild.

As far as it goes, the best recruiting tool you can employ is excellence. Make sure that everyone you do have in the guild is on the same page. If they want to progress, they'll do their best to promote excellence to make your guild more attractive and draw a higher quality of recruit. If they're not, well, that sucks, but suddenly having to compete for raid slots can be very motiviational.

Pimp yourselves on your guild website's front page! Doesn't matter if you are getting world firsts or server 30th kills. If your server forum maintains a progression list, make sure your accomplishments are recorded on it. If your server forum has a list of guild websites, make sure you're on it.

Don't be the guild recruiting in trade. Seriously. You'll get exactly the kind of applicants you deserve that way. Make sure your officers and raidleaders pug it up and chat up people who have potential. Whether you actively try to poach from other guilds or not is up to you, but even just talking to people gets your guild's name into their thoughts which can go a long way.

And again, when people do come calling, have something to show them that describes your guild. Writing policy is boring, absolutely. Drawing the right kind of recruits is the reward.

As an example, my guild's policies. This is what you can read when considering applying to us (caution: domain name possibly NSFW!): Clowns on Fire :: View Forum - Guild Information (http://gofuk.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=27) One thing you'll notice right away is that the tone of the writing reflects the tone of our guild. This is also pretty important.

Once a recruit gets tagged, they have access to a members only forum with the rest of our policies laid out, and also a forum specifically for recruits to comminicate with the officers with questions and concerns, with several stickies answering common questions that recruits have.

This sort of clarity has two purposes, actually. First, it lets people know exactly what they're in for before they apply as noted earlier. Second, it lets us call bullshit when the recruit we're booting says but I didn't know! The only reason you didn't know is because you were too lazy to read.

One of the rewards of this is that we have guild get togethers once or twice a year even though we have members spread from Canada to Hawaii (and some in Europe!) A fair number of our members have met in reality to hang out and do stupid shit together. We're a pretty close knit crew.

bludwork
03-19-2009, 09:34 AM
You have to define casual because everyone has a different definition of it. For example, are you casual in the way you approach raids? or are you casual in the amount of time spent raiding? They are not the same thing.

A guild might raid casually, e.g. 3 hours a night, 2 nights a week but while raiding it's all business; little raid chatter everyone comes prepared has read strats and is always there.

Another guild might not be as prepared, allow afk breaks, spend a lot of time on vent having a good time and possibly treat the raid as a social gathering event.

You can certainly have a casual raiding guild as long as you recruit people who buy into your definition of what casual is. The first example might attract very good players who you won't see the rest of the week. They are like mercinaries show up kill stuff and log, while the second would be more friendly and enjoyable yet undedicated or unfocused.

zander1976
03-19-2009, 10:32 AM
The response (edit: two posts) above me is pretty good, but I do have some comments on the DKP parts.

We made a hard and fast rule, no one coming in fresh from the street so to speak would be awarded any items.

If an item was not needed by anyone who had been long in the guild and had DKPs, the item would go for disenchanting, it would not go for those new players.

To this I'll say that if your pont system is set up in a rational manner, recruits should get items that will otherwise rot. While saying that recruits should not expect gear is a decent way to turn away the lootwhores, it can also turn away potentially valuable members because when it comes down to it, we're all here to improve our gear to progress. It's not necessarily a bad policy, but it does have benefits and drawbacks. I'd rather give recruits gear even if they end up being declined, personally. It's not like you are losing anything.


Yeah, I see your point. They were told about this in advance and they were still able to roll in 10 mans so if a person can't handle a raid or 2 without getting gear then they weren't really the type of person we needed.

I know its painful to have drops that you need and can't roll on but you get passed it and get your gear it just takes sometime. It took the guild time and effort to put the place on farm so people walking in thinking "where are my free epics" aren't going to be happy.

That will certainly show that you aren't going to gear up other guilds anymore and make it clear but if you want to be a little nicer about it then go mains roll then trials and offspecs roll.. If no mains want it then they have a chance to get something.

One way to think of seeing gear sharded is that you are going to need those mats when you are a full member :)

dirt
03-19-2009, 12:07 PM
Ok, wow. I've read the whole thread and tried to take it all in.

I'm the first to admit my guild totally screwed up from the start. Well, not exactly but let me explain.

A bunch of people in the prior guild I was in couldn't never seem to get raid spots. The GM of that guild like to bump more skilled players for his RL friends. I actually came back from a 2 week X-Mas break, no WoW during that time. Seems some people I was friends with in the guild were at their wits-end and so Sands of Time was formed. This is like first week of Jan. We had a "core" group of people who all jumped ship at the same time. Only about 10, maybe 12 of us to start. We didn't start out hitting Naxx right away. Both myself and my girlfriend(she plays a SV hunter in our guild) were severally under geared and needed heroics before Naxx, everyone else was 2 weeks ahead of us. So we start running heroics non-stop, get the gear and after two weeks we put our first SoT guild run together. Hurray!

We took some lumps like most of you I'm sure, but after 2 weeks we cleared 10man Naxx, OS & VoA. We have moved up quickly in guild ranking. We are now in the top 30ish overall(not sure if its good or bad). Everyone is feeling great, we struggle here and there getting the fights nailed, but get 10 man on farm really after 3-4 weeks. So, of course 25 mans are next, we need to recruit more people. The guild the first 6 weeks probably is like 20-25 people. In the course of one weekend, we get like 100 new people(mistake #1). We bring the new people in being fully aware that they are not guaranteed raid spots. The officers(core 10) fill slots then we take people based on need and gearing. The process of learning 25 mans is much harder, mainly because at that point few were geared for 10 mans, much less 25. So we pug spots, have new and different guildes every run it seemed. I admit of pure will & neediness on the officers part(maybe greed too), we bring in whoever we can get on any given night(mistake #2). We eventually cleared 25 man Naxx last week.

The last couple of weeks some epeen, egos & drama has descended on us. A bunch of people quit and now we are struggling to get a 25 man for Naxx, when we had a waiting list with people begging for spots. We were very short sited on most of the points you've all listed. All of which is the GM & officers doing. So this week us officers have got a bit chippy, moral was low after we could not get enough for Naxx. So finally here we are currently.

In a nutshell, our guild is at a crossroads like many of yours. Are we a casual or raiding guild? That is the most pressing question that needs to be answered. Honestly, all the officers all ready know the answer. All of the officers raid 5-6 nights a week, we usually have 2 days for 25man Naxx, 1 for 25man OS & VoA if we control it and help new guildes either do 10mans or heroics. It's taken its toll a bit on us. We had the typical mass join and some burst leaving or kicking, growing pains. So back to all those mistakes we made, the ones above are just a few, we have many more.

We took the high road early on, taking people we could get, getting them into raids too quickly with out getting to know them or see their skills(or lack there of). We hand held many of them thru 10mans and then the expecations going into 25 mans is they always have spot, they should get loot over officers and people who have been the longer, no being preparred, slacking off, hell we even had a mage get so wasted drinking, by the time we got to KT he was useless. Again, no QQ here, all our own doing.

So now we've bogged down a bit and the officers want to go hardcore. I mean we are already to a degree but with out the enforcement of rules and guide lines. This is all about to change as either we will get stricter or the really good players will leave. Our GM is the nicest guy in the world, to the detriment of new players being on par with officers(huge mistake). So over this week we all met a few times, had some words, hashed ideas and we are charged to come up with a game plan. A couple of officers are worried we will loss like 50% or more, especially in regards to loot.

I use to be for the new people, lets try to gear them to make our guild better and then they leave for green pastures so they think. In the end, alot of officers have got shafted on drops, but the worst part is we did it to ourselves..lol..We are currently using SK, but I hate it. So of course everyone loves to run with us, even other guilds we are friendly with cause we end up gearing them out of some warped sense of fairness. I've been a swell guy, but now the swellings subsided. This read has been invaluable. I'm copying the link to this thread in our guild forum for the other officers to see. We all bear accountability for how things are now, but its not all gloom and doom as I see it. I'm of the mind now, if we loss 100 people, I'm fine with it as long as our core stays together. Even if it means doing 10mans or breaking for a bit from raiding, I'm resolved to either make the changes or move on. I'm inclined to goto EPGP. I had a late night and did alot of reading on it. I like the weighted options, both giving & taking away points when people deserve it. I'm also no above sitting people for a week even if that means pugging their spot or simply calling it. I figure if 1 person holds up 9/24 others, then the other members will hold them accountable and thus weed out some along the way. I know many people will not make the cut, people deep down I like, but don't have the commitment. But, if we are truly to move to a "hardcore" progression guild, then we need to enforce the rules that way. I never come to a raid late, without buff food, flasks, pots, gear sets and repaired and ready to go on time. I joked with my girlfriend, raiding has become our second jobs. Really if you think about, WoW is sort of like having a part-time and to some even full time jobs. So you certainly would not show up late continually, or not bring the tools you need, or come in drunk to work! If so you will not be employed long. I laugh to myself often when I think back, how it was in early raids. I always use to wonder why most raiders I met always seemed pissed off or stressed. Now I know why, its not just your time, its 24 other peoples.

Ok, wow, didn't realized this was so long. I'm not sure how it will pan out for us, alot of people in WoW are impatient or have short attention spans. That's just the way it is. But after reading this and venting a bit, if I ever doubted where I stand I guess I've answered alot of my own questions. :)

Thanks for everyone that posted again, alot of really useful material in here I'll be sure to pass along to my guildies.

Lastly, Satrina or anyone that uses EPGP have any suggestions or modifications to the rules that they've found particularly useful? Any great selling points by using it?

Fryed
03-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Again Guys and Gals...id like to thank you for all the helpful advise. I have made our guild Application and have let the guild know to expect some changes.(which are really just being a bit strickter to the rules already in place) I believe we are going to loose some, not only good players but, some great folks over the future growing pains. I will miss them, but the Guild as a whole is our focus and as long as we progress and Grow (which i believe we will) it will not be in vain.

Fryed <Dark Phoenix Guardians>

Satrina
03-20-2009, 08:50 AM
Lastly, Satrina or anyone that uses EPGP have any suggestions or modifications to the rules that they've found particularly useful? Any great selling points by using it?

Unless you have someone who is willing to do the math to customise the system and/or someone to write addons to support your changes to the system, I'd suggest you just use the publicly available EPGP addon (epgp - Google Code (http://code.google.com/p/epgp/)) that's out there. Definitely suggest you at least use EP decay.

If you want to see how we modified EPGP, you can look here: Clowns on Fire :: View topic - ClownPoints 2.0 (http://gofuk.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2879) I spent about two weeks modeling that to make sure it would retain its integrity through an entire expansion's worth of raids (about 300), and then another few weeks writing addons for raid tracking and loot handling.