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Commandeer
03-14-2009, 12:44 AM
Not really sure if this is the proper place for this or not, but it's a situation that is causing a lot of frustration and a lot of fighting very, very quickly.

I'm the 'MT' of a 10-man guild, currently farming Naxx, and working on Malygos. I'm reasonably well geared for this content, have multiple epics in almost every gear slot, as I'm a firm believer in multiple gear sets, as I was back in TBC, MT-ing Horde first server kills through SSC and TK.

I'm pretty damn well-read on my class, being a long time visitor of tankspot, and a daily visitor to both the lolwowforums and EJ, so in most situations, I have a pretty clear idea of WTF I'm talking about.


Here's the event:
We're an hour into our first raid of the week, and heading towards the Plague Quarter. Failure to adapt leads to a nice trash wipe (grats guys) and after we pull the ghouls and slimes and get them down... Medallion of the Disgraced dropped. Now, we use a modified DKP-style system, where you accrue your points through attendance and certain bonuses (15 minutes early, etc, etc). I'm at the time wearing Amulet of Autopsy, with Chained Military Gorget in my bag for situations where I want to push TPS. I'm also, based on my score, next in line for the Key to the Focusing Iris, and in turn, my Drakescale Collar. I clearly have next to no practical use for the Medallion.

I express my interest as 'off' and following conversation occurs:

RL: "Off? That's clearly a tanking item"
Me: "It's honestly more for pallies, the only use it has for me is trash, it is never worn on a boss".
Warlock: "No, it has block value, if you want threat, you stack block value, you get insane shield slams"
Me: "I wear the badge neck for threat as it has hit rating"
Warlock: "Block value is more important for your threat than hit or expertise"
Me: "No, you are wrong, the only application is for raid trash, please guys I'm telling you, this is a trash only item for me"
RL: "You're being ridiculous, this is clearly a tanking item"
Me: "Fine, I don't care, it's almost useless to me, DE the <expletive deleted> thing" and pull the gargoyle
You receive item: Medallion of the Disgraced

I whisper the RL (who is our GM as well) and tell her that if she would like to see the math behind my analysis of the gear, I'd be happy to show it to her (via the clearly written lists here). I get no response.

We 2-shot Noth (I don't know, don't ask) ... and after having aggro pulled 4 times during the Hiegan pull (4 aggro pulls before the first 'explosion') we one shot him and I log off before I start yelling and informing everyone in my guild that they are terribads and I hate them (</emo3).

I log on the next morning, to find I was charged DKP for the neck. I whisper our GM saying it was inappropriate and other choice words, to charge me for an item after I say to DE it. I get no response, so I calmly go respec Titan's Grip and am now currently refusing to tank any sort of raid content.

We got into a gearing/spec fight last week with some out of guild PUGs, (who are clearly vastly more knowledgeable about the mechanics of tanking than me because they have 'Champion of the Frozen Wastes) and the next day had all sorts of information as to why I was completely justified (I was yelled at and told that Deep Wounds was 'terrible').

It feels like for being the 'MT' .. the one who stands in front of the bosses, the one who decides how fast we pull, my opinion of how to play my class and the mechanics behind it are being held in an awful low light.

As I see it, if my guild doesn't want to respect me and trust in my decisions, I'll just PVP.


Sorry for the wall of text, but I didn't really want to leave anything out.

Thoughts? Concerns? Am I an asshole? Am I being unreasonable here?

Fayre
03-14-2009, 12:51 AM
Well in terms of the particular piece of gear in question, if you didn't want it, then you didn't. It's not a 'paladin' item per se - it has its use - but it sounds like you have plenty of appropriate bits of kit you'd use.

However, what concerns me more from your post is your attitude towards your guild and your guildies. If you really do feel like this, it's not time to PVP more or spend time refusing to tank, it's time to look for another guild, because you're not going to be happy where you are in the long term.

Commandeer
03-14-2009, 01:06 AM
I was simplifying when saying 'more of a paladin item' as it benefits them more than myself... as block is less valuable than it used to be, and the item goes in a set that's sort of gimmicky (pushing Loatheb's melee off 100% etc), and has no raiding application besides trash. I'm not saying it's only for one class or another, but was providing a baseline for my leaders, as they have told me directly they know nothing about tanking.

hvidgaard
03-14-2009, 01:28 AM
It's very simple, you didn't ask for the item, you didn't bit on it, in fact you said DE it. They reinstate your dkp points, or you should seriously consider another guild. I don't know why the GM did what she did, maybe she moved above you for the Malygos key?

And I agree with you, BV gear are for trash, hit/expertise are much better for threat on bosses.

wyatt
03-14-2009, 02:35 AM
DKP means you never have to explain or apologize. Anything else is a loot council hybrid.

I'd leave guild in a hurry if the rules were changed against me after the fact and while I was offline by your so-called "leader".

Cookie
03-14-2009, 07:37 AM
You don't really like your guild much from the way you talk about it, your gm is a 'tard from the way she charges dkp for forced loot and then ignores whispers on top of that- why are you still in the guild? -.- I'm guessing she's after the Malygos key and saw this as an oppotunity to get it, but really, a gm or rl ignoring whispers about this is completely absurd. She's a jackass. But then again, you sound like a jackass too from the way you talk :p

And btw, judging from your gm's spec and gem choices, she doesn't even know how to play her own class, so she should be in no position to tell other people what gear they need.

Satrina
03-14-2009, 08:24 AM
Taking any discussion of how bad your GM and/or guildmates may or may not be out of the equation, let's look at it this way:

Maintainers of loot systems just love it when people try to get exceptions for themselves, because added complexity to out of game elements enhances their fun in game immensely. Doing this mid-raid really intensifies the experience.


It feels like for being the 'MT' .. the one who stands in front of the bosses, the one who decides how fast we pull, my opinion of how to play my class and the mechanics behind it are being held in an awful low light.
And all of that should affect guild policy in exactly what logical way?


who are clearly vastly more knowledgeable about the mechanics of tanking than me because they have 'Champion of the Frozen Wastes
Math transcends gear (and achievements). There are plenty of people who know all the theory cold who may never have a chance to exercise it. But hey, it's easy to dismiss people out of hand.

As for DKP being charged, I know well that loot mixups happen. I sometimes mistake the DKP charges when entering them later. People send me private messages on our forums, and I fix them. You appear to have gone online and cussed out your GM from the start. Maybe he was AFK. Maybe he missed the tell in some spam. Maybe he was waiting for you to converse like a normal human being instead of blasting his face with no warning. How long did you wait? Did you even try a second time?

As I see it, you don't respect your guildmates, either. Trust in your decisions? Again, how should your word cause loot policy to be instantly changed?

And then you pretty much take your ball and go home? Wow.

Kelstet
03-14-2009, 08:35 AM
^ I agree with Satrina, A re-spec out of spite after what sounds like a drawn out incident in which you have probably now severely blemished your character seems a bit over the top so to speak. While you might not see value in reducing dmg intake via block value and making yourself smoother to heal I myself see alot of value in that neckpiece. I think you've pretty much made your decision apparent to your posts and taking the position of a martyr. Time to move on rather than justify your behavior IMHO at this point.

Kel

Commandeer
03-14-2009, 02:15 PM
As for DKP being charged, I know well that loot mixups happen. I sometimes mistake the DKP charges when entering them later. People send me private messages on our forums, and I fix them. You appear to have gone online and cussed out your GM from the start. Maybe he was AFK. Maybe he missed the tell in some spam. Maybe he was waiting for you to converse like a normal human being instead of blasting his face with no warning. How long did you wait? Did you even try a second time?

I did my civil conversation... both when the item dropped, and immediately after. If 'math transcends everything' as you have stated, then surely being shown the math placing Medallion beneath Amulet, Drakescale, and Chained Gorget in all gear sets beyond 'Block Value' would be justifiable, yes?

Furthermore, there's no mix-up here. I told them to DE the item. Very, VERY clearly over vent. There was no loss of this message in spam.



As I see it, you don't respect your guildmates, either. Trust in your decisions? Again, how should your word cause loot policy to be instantly changed?

I didn't say "I'm right, my word is law, give me the epix, nomnomnom" .. I offered the explanation and math behind the gear to a GM who has told me "I know nothing of tanking". If she didn't want to take the time to take a look at it, or, after already proving that my decisions are well thought out and I do my research and actually approve of things I say... then she should have DE'ed the item as she was told to do.


And then you pretty much take your ball and go home? Wow.

Well, the ball was forced on me, and I paid half my DKP for it :(

Satrina
03-14-2009, 02:49 PM
You're missing my point here. The item in question may be ranked below this item, that item, and even the other item in your estimation. It's still a tanking item. You can't argue against that basic fact. It doesn't matter how you personally rank it, it's still a tank item, it's still main spec for you. End of story. People are forever trying to get exceptions like that and as soon as you say okay to one, your loot system is basically screwed. You don't make exceptions on mainspec items for people.

You're taking my "math transcends gear" comment and deliberately pulling it out of the context I was using it in. I was referring to your casual dismissal of people's knowledge based on their achievements.

As for the ball being forced on you, it must suck to not have access to email or out of game forums to discuss such things.

Durandro
03-15-2009, 12:09 AM
To be perfectly honest, I do see the bad side of what happened. Also reaffirms my opinion that DKP systems don't work very well.

Guilds should work together to gear people up evenly and for the greater good of their raids. It shouldn't be about the gear itself, merely that if someone needs it they get it.

Of course, this means tanks and healers would get preference for token drops and the like. But then what is the point of gearing up dps when the tank and healer isn't up to scratch yet?

Either way, just keep trying to talk to your GM. Either she'll eventually talk back, or she'll do what my old guild leader did and quit due to 'the pressure', handing over leadership to an asshat who then /gkicks me out of spite mid raid.

Cookie
03-15-2009, 04:11 AM
You're missing my point here. The item in question may be ranked below this item, that item, and even the other item in your estimation. It's still a tanking item. You can't argue against that basic fact. It doesn't matter how you personally rank it, it's still a tank item, it's still main spec for you. End of story. People are forever trying to get exceptions like that and as soon as you say okay to one, your loot system is basically screwed. You don't make exceptions on mainspec items for people.

You're taking my "math transcends gear" comment and deliberately pulling it out of the context I was using it in. I was referring to your casual dismissal of people's knowledge based on their achievements.

As for the ball being forced on you, it must suck to not have access to email or out of game forums to discuss such things.
You're a total asshat, even more of an ass than the OP or his gm -.- Wanting to give any item to a person just because it fits their mainspec and charge them dkp, even if its a downgrade, and then being so self-righteous is just... WOW! O_O

And he said that his loot system was dkp, not a loot council that dishes out mainspec items regardless of if its needed or not.

Gromblee
03-15-2009, 04:48 AM
He said nothing about other tanks in raid. I know there had to be at least one. There is a lot of gear I have gotten cause the MT passed on it. I smell more story to this whole thing. My guild does not use DKP ....we use a loot council which seems to work for us. Tanks and healers get no preference. We have to roll for tokens with everybody else. If main spec has no interest in an item then it is up for offspec if no interest then it is DE'd. I realize many people don't like this method but our RL has a statement at the begining of the raid... if you have to leave mid raid you must find your own replacement if you do not you will not raid with her again. Loot rules are gone over and people are given a shot to drop raid before we begin. Yes sometimes pugs get some good gear and the guild does reserve the right to hold some loot for guild members only but those items are listed before raid begins. It seems to work for us.... most of the guild members have been togather for over a year.

Satrina
03-15-2009, 08:39 AM
You're a total asshat, even more of an ass than the OP or his gm -.- Wanting to give any item to a person just because it fits their mainspec and charge them dkp, even if its a downgrade, and then being so self-righteous is just... WOW! O_O

And he said that his loot system was dkp, not a loot council that dishes out mainspec items regardless of if its needed or not.

I won't assign you an infraction for insulting me since it's just bad form to tattle on yourself. Insults are not tolerated here, that's your warning.

Now, at what point did I say that the loot should be forced on anyone? Go ahead and quote that. Right, you can't. That's because what I am saying is you don't get to game the system by trying to take an item that unarguably is a mainspec item for you as an offspec item. You either spend the points for it, or you don't. You don't get to argue against your guild's loot policy just because you think an item "doesn't count enough" for you to spend points on. Where you got the idea that I'd want to force loot on someone, or why you even dragged loot council into this, when I have noted how I deal with DKP and loot errors in an earlier post - is beyond me.

How the OP hashes out the incorrectly spent DKP is between the loot officer and himself. The should have a policy in place for that, since it's inevitable that a mistake happens. I personally suspect that the guild uses a terrible DKP system with no policy based on the sounds of it, but that's neither here nor there for the current discussion of the OP trying to game the system.

Durandro - DKP systems can be good, and DKP systems can be bad. Loot policies can be good, and loot policies can be bad. Many, many guilds don't put much thought into the combination, and you have a 3/4 chance of getting it wrong if you don't. As you've experienced, when it's bad, it's really bad. If you think it through and implement everything in a way that matches your guild's direction and goals, it works very well.

law90026
03-15-2009, 08:26 PM
What Satrina is trying to say is that the OP is wrong in saying the item is "offspec".


I express my interest as 'off' and following conversation occurs

Having seen a fair share of loot drama in my guild, I have to agree with Satrina here. It's always retarded when people claim that an item is "offspec" or "greed" in an attempt to get around a loot system even if the item is good for them. I'm not saying that's what the OP is trying to do here since he obviously didn't want the item .. although, in that case, he shouldn't even have said offspec.

Having said that, to the OP: your guild has some issues and some of it stems from the fact that your leaders are not well versed in terms of how a warrior tank is played. If you want to stay in the guild, you should find some time to sit down with the relevant persons to walk them through warrior mechanics and gearing.

One concern though:


It feels like for being the 'MT' .. the one who stands in front of the bosses, the one who decides how fast we pull, my opinion of how to play my class and the mechanics behind it are being held in an awful low light.

As I see it, if my guild doesn't want to respect me and trust in my decisions, I'll just PVP.

This comment reeks of ego. Don't let being the MT get to your head because that's one of the surest ways to become disliked. You're part of a team, whether you like it or not, and if this team isn't working out for you, then you may want to reconsider your options. But walking around with a "I'm MT, therefore I know best" attitude isn't always the best idea.

orcstar
03-16-2009, 02:34 AM
I'm the masterlooter in my guild and impose the rules.

Also I have a shitload of gear: avoidance set, blockrating set, threat set. I'm a gearsponge. I've payed dkp for all. Because we want to keep things simple: we have mainspec and offspec. No way around it.

While I could try to explain to my guildies that tanks gear for the fight, and need different gearsets I don't want any exceptions. Now and then I forcefully loot something to someone. Because there is no: I want item x but don't want to pay dkp for it. Because we want everyone to take every upgrade. Even small upgrades. And no hoarding dkp. Because in the end, all the little upgrades combined are a big upgrade to your raid.

Please understand, that as a main tank you should set a good example. I can understand that getting an item while you would rather have gotten the key isn't fun. But.....the key is a guaranteed drop, so no need to get upset about.
And you can't expect everyone to understand tankgearing.

loquatious
03-16-2009, 06:52 AM
I run into this at times, a dagger rogue wants hammers at off spec or a DK taking 1H weapons as off spec.

The simplest workable solution is are you TANK / DPS / HEAL and you pay main spec DKP prices for items that fit that designation. I have felt the pain of building a BV set which is mostly useless and paying full price - but the alternatives are much worse.

kolben
03-16-2009, 07:40 AM
Speaking strictly about this item, it shows a lack of understanding of different gear sets. Sooner or later you'll get additional pieces that allow you to soft cap expertise and come close to 8% hit without a neck. Would this piece be a superior threat neck then? Probably yes.

Your post shows you have a lot of disdain for your guild and it's leadership. I would not have you main tank again in the future, probably just as well that you spec'd fury.

In general you can disagree as strongly as you like on tankspot, I'm fond of my freedom to dissent when I don't agree. Calling people names to preface your disagreement will just earn you an eventual ban. We don't care what your point is, nobody here that cares about this site is going to condone it.

Jackripster
03-17-2009, 08:23 AM
Loot issues can and do happen, RLs are often under the pump to get loot distributing as quickly as possible, keep the raid moving, explaining fights, figuring out who will do what role on the fight, they might even be finding a replacement for someone who pst them they are lagging too hard. There can be 1000 reasons why they dont pst you back.

Mistakes happen but as pointed out you are part if a team. Rage quiting is letting everyone else done that had nothing to do with it. Its always best to sort these matters out after raid and probably even then give your RL 10 minutes to chill.

Im not big on forcing gear on to people, if their performance slips then they'll lose more than DKP and your probably lucky thats all you lost. A rage quit in raid would boil my blood instantly, your lucky you were'nt g/kicked tbh. Perhaps the lost DKP was some sort of punishment.