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View Full Version : Loot problem - Stats confusion



Rhye
03-09-2009, 11:24 AM
Here's a little story:

A group went in Naxx and proceed to kill KT. An amazing sword named The Turning Tide drops so 2 warlocks, a mage and a prot pally rolls on it. Prot pally wins and item is given to him.

The casters, not too happy with the latest event, ask on forums how can prot pally benefit from that huge spell power item. His answer was that its helping him with is aggro. Casters not convinced with his answer look around on the internet (tankspot, wowwiki, elitistjerks...etc) and tells him that according to sources prot pally shouldnt wear spell damage. Pally tells them not to believe everything on the internet and he made his own calculation wich is why he need the spellpower from the weapon.

The issue havent been resolved since.

What are your thoughts?

Erichilles
03-09-2009, 11:30 AM
!!!!TECHNICALLY!!!
we do benefit from spellpower, but NOWHERE near as much as AP, with a few exceptions. There are a few spells that scale with spell power better, but he's losing way to much damage/threat on EVERYTHING else. Honestly, i wouldn't have given it to him... just like i wouldn't give betrayer of humanity to a hunter, but i guess it depends on your guild's loot system...

Selyndia
03-09-2009, 11:36 AM
Currently, the best in slot item for Protection paladins is Last Laugh.

Yes, Protection Paladins do get some benefit from spell power, however, Hammer of the Righteous scales directly with weapon DPS, thus a caster weapon (Like TTT) is very poor for it, the TPS gain on Consecration/etc would be negated by the loss of actual Tanking Threat stats on a weapon like LL (Which has Hit, high DPS, Strength and Stamina all of which provide a Protection Paladin with threat).

The thing is, TTT would be a best in slot item for a Holy Paladin, Warlock or Mage; yet as a Protection Paladin, they should be upgrading it to either a LL or likely even a Broken Promise/Slayer of the Lifeless/Red Sword (I am FAIRLY Certain those are all better threat wise that TTT, but would need to check the actual calculations).

visualdeity
03-09-2009, 11:42 AM
The difference between a prot pally taking this weap and a hunter taking BoH is that BoH is actually pretty damn good for a hunter (I don't know how much they value haste, but the rest of the stats are spot-on). I would give it to a hunter... then again, I'd give good ranged weaps to a melee class. I'm not a fan of melee/ranged weap priority.

Samanatha
03-09-2009, 11:50 AM
This should have gone to a Mage, Warlock, or Holy Paladin. Not a Protection Pally.

-Sam

kolben
03-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Gonna jump on this wagon as it rolls by and say, no the paladin is incorrect and going by old/TBC information on weapons.

Currently, Protection Paladins want the same thing as Protection Warriors with less emphasis on expertise and higher emphasis on block value, block rating and pure avoidance. Strength and Hit are a Protection Paladin's threat stats.

Rhye
03-09-2009, 11:28 PM
Thank you for the input but sadly the issue have only gone worst. At the moment every attempt to to prove this isnt a tanking weapon for pally have hitted a brick wall and rejection. Im quite amazed how it got to that point though.

After all this, the final answer I got is : "I know exactly what I am doing and again I am using the words EXACTLY"

Thanks again for the feedback! ;)

Akeber
03-10-2009, 07:56 AM
Ask him to link his info, or post his math to prove it.

His three largest threat abilities on a single mob are Shield of Righteousness, Melee, and Hammer of the Righteous. None of those three receive any benefit from spell power, zero, zilch, nada. In fact, by choosing a weapon with lower dps and no +strenght, he has reduced the damage and threat done by all three of those abilities.

The only abilities that scale with spell power are consecrate, and seal of righteousness or seal of vengeance, but they also scale with AP. The thing is, they all scale VERY poorly with either AP or SP, and are a small portion of overall threat generated.

Short answer: It's a threat loss and, because the TTT has no defensive stats, it's also a loss on all his tanking numbers (dodge/parry/block).

If he likes caster swords he probably thinks the libram that increases the spell power of consecration is good for something besides getting the Epic achievement. He would be wrong.

Muggs
03-10-2009, 07:59 AM
You should gut the MLer that gave it to the prot pally in the first place. It may be a pug, but the ML needs to understand what classes can use what -- even if just the basics like hit != healer, Spell Power != tanking, etc... That would have never happened in any pug led by me or my raiders =\

IceHaus151
03-10-2009, 08:13 AM
I think the worst thing is the guy cannot admit that he is wrong. He said he knows EXACTLY what he is doing... If that is being a prick and a noob that is exactly what he is doing. Hey, people make mistakes, it happens. I think the people in your guild just want him to admit as much and he cannot. That says a lot about him, and not much of it good.

Akeber
03-10-2009, 08:16 AM
"I know exactly what I am doing and again I am using the words EXACTLY"

Now that I think about it, he may know exactly what he is doing. The turning tide is BiS for holy pallies, he's taking it for his holy off set hoping everyone wll beleive that he's going to use it for tanking.

Warwench
03-10-2009, 08:19 AM
Point him to this thread so he can see how wrong he is.

IceHaus151
03-10-2009, 08:24 AM
Now that I think about it, he may know exactly what he is doing. The turning tide is BiS for holy pallies, he's taking it for his holy off set hoping everyone wll beleive that he's going to use it for tanking.


Nice! I wasnt even thinking of that. So apparently he does know EXACTLY what he is doing... being a prick and circumventing the loot rules. Refer to my post a few lines up.. It says a lot about him, and none of it good. That is some bushleague stuff there, and many guilds would /gkick for a stunt like that.

Rhye
03-10-2009, 09:32 AM
Hehe! Not sure will change anything though... last night in OS25 he was tanking with The Turning Tide.

I think there's no way making him change his mind.

IceHaus151
03-10-2009, 09:33 AM
Hehe! Not sure will change anything though... last night in OS25 he was tanking with The Turning Tide.

I think there's no way making him change his mind.


Get new tanks until he equips something that is for his spec and makes him better.

Warwench
03-10-2009, 09:34 AM
Sure there is. Tell him to learn his class or replace him.

theckhd
03-10-2009, 01:17 PM
DPS and Threat figures calculated (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=20823) for the weapons in this thread, using a standard 969 rotation and a normal paladin tanking spec and gear:

Weapon DPS TPS
Last Laugh 2848 7337
Broken Promise 2817 7264
Slayer of the Lifeless 2785 7195
Red Sword of Courage 2786 7197
The Turning Tide 2751 7144
Life and Death 2728 7092I threw in Life and Death for good measure.

The Turning Tide is weaker for both dps and threat generation, has no avoidance or mitigation, and unless he was using a green questing weapon, was probably a downgrade from whatever he was using.

In short, point him to this thread, and if he doesn't change his mind, sit him out until he reads up on the mechanics of his class.

Or you could make him spec holy and heal, I guess. He has the weapon for it now, after all.

Selyndia
03-10-2009, 01:22 PM
Thank you for the figures, I was fairly certain it was inferior to all the other epic tanking weapons, but the figures help back it up.

Straahd
03-10-2009, 04:45 PM
Deleted so I dont get yelled at again.

Durandro
03-10-2009, 08:37 PM
Drop him from regular Raids, I would. He's compromising raids by not using the correct gear. If he complains, ignore him.

It's true that you can't believe any old thing on the internet, but when multiple sources are giving the same figures then chances are they're right and you're wrong.

Or you can play nasty and allow Rogues to roll on tanking swords. Though don't take that comment seriously, I've seen ALOT of talk on thottbot about how certain tanking weapons are good for Rogues as well...

Rennadrel
03-10-2009, 10:47 PM
Drop him from regular Raids, I would. He's compromising raids by not using the correct gear. If he complains, ignore him.

It's true that you can't believe any old thing on the internet, but when multiple sources are giving the same figures then chances are they're right and you're wrong.

Or you can play nasty and allow Rogues to roll on tanking swords. Though don't take that comment seriously, I've seen ALOT of talk on thottbot about how certain tanking weapons are good for Rogues as well...
I have seen rogues in Dalaran with Red Sword of Courage and Infantry Assault Blade as their weapons, sad....

Rhyseh
03-10-2009, 10:53 PM
Really this pally needs to learn his class and also needs to learn to not be selfish. Threat is a non-issue at this point in time. A guild's progression would benefit much more by this going to a DPS or a holy pally even IF it was good for threat gen (which it isn't).