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Octobersky
03-08-2009, 10:14 AM
The casters in my guild argue that holy pallies should not be able to roll on the Turning Tide, since they cannot roll on the Torch of Holy Fire. This has been a big issue among our guild; it's risen to the point where any opposition to this caster group might get you gkicked. Just this past week we cleared naxx with the help of another guild we've been running with. Normally, I am on master looter but since we were down a tank, I let one of the casters do it, so I could help clear trash faster. Needless to say, the Turning Tide dropped, the Mace and Voice of Reason didn't, leaving the pallies no other items to roll on. The holy pally from the other guild won the roll but the caster took it instead, citing the reasons above. This pissed a lot of people off, but no one said much because we all know nothing was going to change their minds. One pally called the caster a ninja and was quickly silenced. The pallies and I have all argued that the Turning Tide is clearly BiS for pallies (b/c crit >>> Mp5) and that it is unfair to deny them the chance at their best weapon just because there is a caster in the group who wants it. The sword was a minor upgrade for the caster - already had an solid i213.

I strongly disagree with what is happening over this item, but things get very heated when I argue with the casters. The last time I did this, they basically told me to leave the guild, even though I am the de facto leader of our raids and am the driving force behind our progression.

Some of this is just venting but does anyone have thoughts on how to bring this up and not break the guild apart? In my opinion, the problem stems from the mentality of "if only I could get item X then I could pull 4k too!" I wage a war against this geared-based mentality on a daily basis, and get yelled at for that too, with accusations that I don't know anything about buffs, dps, stats, etc... Other than this damn sword, I enjoy and respect these players. They are just being incredibly selfish in this instance.

Hengist
03-08-2009, 10:26 AM
What is the possible reasoning for denying this item to paladins? I don't get it

Octobersky
03-08-2009, 10:52 AM
It goes something like this:

Paladins can roll on the Torch and the Voice of Reason (even if niether the mace or shield dropped). The casters cannot. Thus, it isn't fair to the casters that the Holy Pallies can roll on their sword when the casters cannot roll on the mace or shield.

Palladins don't need crit as much as casters do. Thus, casters get priority.

Again, I completely disagree with these arguments as a means to horde loot. If it was a full guild run and there was a policy in place, that is one thing. But when 10/25 are non guildies and it is /roll for all loot, it is ninja activity in my opinion.

Sarris
03-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Does your guild always do /roll for loot, or was this because you had to do a joint raid?

Warwench
03-08-2009, 11:02 AM
your casters are selfish idiots. Itemisation is all over the place in WOLK with many classes BiS items coming from items that were clearly supposed to be for other classes.

If your casters are out for the guild as a whole, not just them selves they'd not have this issue.

Just because the pallies CAN roll on a diff item doesnt make that item BiS for them. If it's BiS for multiple people, then so be it, they all should roll.

your caster is a damn ninja.

Satrina
03-08-2009, 11:03 AM
Wow, your casters appear to be douchebags.

To actually be constructive:

- Policy. I've said it I don't know how many times, but having policies in place ahead of time that you can refer to saves a lot of grief. A loot policy is one of the most important. Make sure it's comprehensive and includes a "No arguing or whining about loot, period" clause. In my opinion, the need to set priorities is indicative of problems in your group that transcend loot.

- Is the guild that you're running with to fill raids interested in acquiring a bunch of players?

Alent
03-08-2009, 11:08 AM
if you're the "De facto" leader, be the person who hands out invites and stop inviting that ninja.

If your casters leave with him, problem solved.

Utcha
03-08-2009, 11:12 AM
Note to self, never give ML to @sshats.

Octobersky
03-08-2009, 11:17 AM
We do /roll because we run 25's with non-guildies and partially because we all know that Naxx is so easy that if you don't get your epic this week, you'll get it next week.

Usually we are good about passing loot to those who need it. Even the people in question are normally generous in this manner, but there is something about this sword that brings out the worst in them.

I may tank 25 naxx with my Red Sword and Titansteel shield wall to make a point next lockout. 13 item lvl points means shit, especailly for dps, and to see this causing good raiders to want to leave the guild . . . well it bothers me.

Satrina
03-08-2009, 11:21 AM
we all know that Naxx is so easy that if you don't get your epic this week, you'll get it next week.

...

Even the people in question are normally generous in this manner

Which side of these people do you think you'll see when content is hard and not being facerolled?

Alent
03-08-2009, 11:29 AM
I may tank 25 naxx with my Red Sword and Titansteel shield wall to make a point next lockout. 13 item lvl points means shit, especailly for dps, and to see this causing good raiders to want to leave the guild . . . well it bothers me.

I'll say it again - the ninjas need to GO.

Maybe take all the good raiders and go to one of the guilds you raid jointly with, but the casters have to be dealt with here and now, or you have to replace the most important third of the raid and be farming naxx to gear them instead of clearing ulduar.

Octobersky
03-08-2009, 11:30 AM
I honestly don't know what side we will see in hard content. Some (not necessarily the same people) claimed they missed wiping but after 2 hours in 10 man 3 drake it stopped being fun to them, even though signiifcant progress was being made.

I guess I'll just keep certain people in the raid grp tonight, after we are done, so that anyone who has an opinion can have their say. Most of this bickering usually takes place in ochat where some of our solid players can't take part.

blackhand
03-08-2009, 01:39 PM
To me it's like this.

BiS = Free for all it applies to.
Non-BiS = Stick to armor class first then to non-like armor classes

I'd put weapons into the BiS section simply because there are so many cross type weapons that I can't give any good reason to hold/horde a weapon from another class when it is clearly great for them too.

hvidgaard
03-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Holy paladins wouldn't even think of Torch of Holy Fire if they could choose. The mace is primarily a shaman healing mace that is pretty good for most other casting classes, but not as good as The Turning Tide.

Muffin Man
03-08-2009, 03:12 PM
You have an attachment to your guild. That's natural, but you've seen that these people are this stubborn about an issue that they're wrong about. Even to the point that they would ninja an item during a raid and kick people who disagree with them. You let them bully you and the rest of the guild, then you've given them control.

It's just something you're going to have to decide for yourself. You've even said that the ones who claimed to like hard content just gave up on Sarth 3d. People aren't going to magically change when Ulduar comes out, if anything the stress is going to bring out the worst in them. Especially with that legendary healing weapon and who knows what else.

BTW - the caster who ninja-ed Turning Tide, was he even 2nd ont he roll?

Tharr
03-08-2009, 05:03 PM
It goes something like this:

Paladins can roll on the Torch and the Voice of Reason (even if niether the mace or shield dropped). The casters cannot. Thus, it isn't fair to the casters that the Holy Pallies can roll on their sword when the casters cannot roll on the mace or shield.

Palladins don't need crit as much as casters do. Thus, casters get priority.

But paladins can't roll on staves, so clearly paladins should get prio on the sword! And why can't the casters roll on the mace? I heard it's quite good for shadow priests (unless they don't count as casters).
/sarcasm

So you had a guild member ninja an item. Had he been in my guild he'd be kicked faster then he could say "wtf". Turning Tide is BiS for holy paladins, and therefore they should get to roll on it. If the casters thinks they will get a massive upgrade from it then it's more a learn to play issue. That sword should have gotten to the top roller since that seem to be your lootsystem, there's no discussion about it really.

Either way, set loot rules and stick to them. If some people don't like them they are free to make their concerns heard AFTER the run. Chainging lootrules midrun is bad.

Samanatha
03-09-2009, 08:42 AM
Possible solution:

Have one of your holy priest, resto shaman or resto druid write a post your your guild forums (or if you don't have a website just bring it up next raid). In this post have them list reasons why Holy Paladins shouldn't be able to roll on Torch of Holy Fire. Include the obvious reason of "they can roll on Turning Tide, which I can't roll on."

Then you have 2 choices:

1. In the same post that person should say "We agree with the Mages' opinion about holy Paladins and want to make a guild policy that states the following. "Holy Paladins can't roll on Turning Tide because they can roll on Torch of Holy Fire, which would be unfair to caster dps. Also, Holy Paladins can't roll on Torch of Holy Fire because they can roll on Turning Tide, which would be unfair to other healers. Obviously, they now can't roll on anything because they can roll on the other. Finally, the Paladins should give their souls to the warlocks so they can make more healthstones (which have a far smaller percent of overheal)."

2. If you want to be a bit more serious you can just follow up the post with one of your own explaining most of what was said in this thread and that Holy Paladins should be able to choose an item that best fits their class and spec. If a Mage has a problem he should go do some research about Paladins.

-Sam

Muffin Man
03-09-2009, 01:05 PM
2. If you want to be a bit more serious you can just follow up the post with one of your own explaining most of what was said in this thread and that Holy Paladins should be able to choose an item that best fits their class and spec. If a Mage has a problem he should go do some research about Paladins.

-Sam

I'm actually surprised this hasn't been brought up yet. We all missed how much the casters were loot whoring turning tide by forcing the healers to share the torch even if it wasn't great for pallies and better for the rest of the healers.

Also, Holy Pally itemization isn't going to change in 3.1 So this issue is only going to come up again and again and again and again.

And again.

minrog
03-09-2009, 04:47 PM
You can't let people ninja items because they don't like the roll they got. The other stuff isn't going to have as much of an effect as the server thinking your guild is full of ninjas. It happened to a guild on our server where the RL lost the roll and stole the item anyway, the guild imploded and does not exist anymore.

As far as loot priorities go you're going to have to come up with your own decision about items and who gets them. In general Tank gearing > DPS gearing > Healer gearing as far as what helps you proceed in the content. The only way a healer's gear is going to benefit you more than a DPSer's gear is if it allows you to drop a healer spot for a DPS spot.

Seeing that it was a PUG and your guildmate ninja'ed the item after losing you either need to have him removed from the guild/raid or leave it yourself. In a guild run I wouldn't block the Turning Tide from a Holy Paladin either but it sounds like you won't win the argument with the guys so maybe you should just leave.

Durandro
03-09-2009, 05:05 PM
I once Raid Lead and Master Looted a 10 man Naxx raid. I lost every single roll for gear, despite it being a bigger upgrade for me.

I said 'grats' and gave them to the guys who won the rolls.

At the end of the day, it's a game. And games have rules. People who don't follow the rules are cheaters.

Octobersky
03-09-2009, 07:19 PM
*** Update ***

I brought it up with our Guild Leader He relayed my concerns to the caster who took the sword. Turns out the caster didn't know it was best in slot for Holy Pallies. So the caster contacted a GM and the Holy Pally will have a nice surprise in his mail box the next time he logs in. The caster felt that bad about taking the pally's BiS weapon.

I'm glad this problem was solved. It doesn't settle the dispute with the other caster who does know it's BiS for pallies and still thinks they shouldn't get it, but as of right now I think that caster is the only one who feels that way.

Thanks for the feedback. Ninja crisis averted. I'm very happy with this caster's actions. True colors shine through I guess. : )

Durandro
03-09-2009, 07:44 PM
Sorry to be a cynic, but it sounds like your GM got out the /gkick hammer and waved it around a little. Which prompted your caster to quickly rethink his actions and conclude that a minor gear upgrade wasn't worth being removed from a guild for.

Though if he really did see the error of his ways, all the better. Glad things worked out, however they may have come about. Just hope for no more drama in the forseeable future.

Fledern
03-13-2009, 06:50 AM
I'm worried more about the
"This has been a big issue among our guild; it's risen to the point where any opposition to this caster group might get you gkicked." comment you made.

If somebody's going to insist on being an asshole enough to get you gkicked, then apparently you & them dont belong in the same space. Arguing is ok, it's health - when it becomes an actual power struggle, it's time to re-examine everything.

That the issue has been solved doesnt negate the issue - this'll just crop up in some other form. Solve it - now.

orcstar
03-13-2009, 08:55 AM
People being vocal are often with a reason: they know they're wrong but think that being Vocal about something will get them a beneficial situation.

So, take care of your non Vocal peeps (often healers) in guild also, they might not say a lot but if you don't, you will at some point wonder why your healers aren't logging on anymore.