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veneretio
03-03-2009, 11:57 PM
http://media.libsyn.com/media/veneretio/2009march3.mp3

Topics:


Dual Specs
True Main Tanks
Itís time to Step Down as the MT (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/13/its-time-to-step-down-as-main-tank/) post
And More!

Kazeyonoma
03-04-2009, 01:28 AM
news worthy?

Ciderhelm
03-04-2009, 01:38 AM
He posted it specifically so I could news it. Will transfer now! :)

Kazeyonoma
03-04-2009, 01:48 AM
auch! gotcha.

Ciderhelm
03-04-2009, 02:00 AM
Per the podcast, I absolutely agree w/ the multiple Protection specs. A third spec and I'd probably go Fury, but the first two are different varieties of Protection. I'll be making a news post on it soon.

Whoocares
03-04-2009, 02:38 AM
DUDE, a Yogi bear quote wth.

Tristania
03-04-2009, 03:27 AM
Honestly I have no idea how many protection specs I would have before making a dps spec... I know it would be a lot though... I already know my 2 protection specs for dual specs... Unless they make some changes to the trees before release.

Foofy
03-04-2009, 05:00 AM
Per the podcast, I absolutely agree w/ the multiple Protection specs. A third spec and I'd probably go Fury, but the first two are different varieties of Protection.

I intend to use 2 variations of Protection tree (trash & boss or maybe dps & survivability). But what if an Ulduar boss requires only 1 tank (Saphiron, Malygos, ...) and DK/druid is a better choice on it?

Warwench
03-04-2009, 06:44 AM
Per the podcast, I absolutely agree w/ the multiple Protection specs. A third spec and I'd probably go Fury, but the first two are different varieties of Protection. I'll be making a news post on it soon.

Yep I forsee 3 types of dual specs.

The "Tank it Tank it, all the time" - 2 different tanking specs for different types of encounters.

The "Furious OT" - Fury main spec, a basic tanking setup for the second build.

The "I PeeVeePee sitting down" spec, a main spec (tanking or DPS) and then a PVP related build. The PVP build would be a PVProt (if man spec tanking) or a Arms build.

Me personally, going with the Furious OT as I dont have the time or resources (or drive right now) to MT it up hard core.

Horacio
03-04-2009, 06:55 AM
I'm not sure how I'll swing it with dual specs. I am officially the OT for my 25 man raid so if there are some singe tank fights, I'd like to go fury and chip in some damage. On the other hand, there may be cause to go 2 tank specs for both myself and the MT....whom I know is going 2 tank specs.

Time will tell but there is sound logic behind having a balanced tanking set with some threat and DPS considerations(Deep Wounds/Impale) and a 'Heavy Tank' set up with all the prot bells and whistles like Imp Spell Reflect, Vigilence, Improved Disciplines, etc.

Soldeadguy
03-04-2009, 07:42 AM
For a War like myself who has been prot since pre BC... there's really no other way to do it. The prot tree has just too much to it that makes it great. When I use a Arms or a Fury spec I feel like I'm limiting my class to what I'm used to doing.

As for what wars do.... it more so falls on the lines of equality. By all means I have no problem with other tanks doing their thing and enjoying the game but when the word is "equal" I don't see that when I watch a pally or a DK kick out 8k+ tps on unlimited targets. This then makes me feel limited to what I bring to a raid comp. Sure my guild mates don't see it like that but as a tank and of war class I cant help but question it.

Squashed
03-04-2009, 08:05 AM
I'd like to keep one spec prot and the other a DPS spec, assuming fury doesn't get gutted in 3.1...still waiting on some more changes.

We have a druid that plans to MT Ulduar for us and I'm currently #1 overall dps (fury) when we have someone else OT, so I don't think I'll go double prot. For progression into Ulduar I think that I'll drop some threat talents for more mitigation as my threat is currently sufficient (yes our DPS is lacking)

This is all assuming we don't need me to run my priest, which it looks is steadily happening.

Kavtor
03-04-2009, 08:15 AM
I'd love to be able to use 2 prot specs. But I owe it to the other tanks in the guild to let them have a go as well. Not to mention, I pvp a bit on the side.

Now if only I could have 4 different specs... or hadn't spent so much money respecing that I can't afford the present dual spec cost!

Ray
03-04-2009, 08:24 AM
Inspiring and comforting

Your pod was so inspiring as the thought of 2 tank specs had crossed my mind, but was unsure if that was really right as the guild im in doesnt really use a MT, but a tank team mentality. But your right, duel spec will show who the MTs are and the OTs are.

It was comforting in the same respect to know that im not alone in my feelings towards the game, tanking, and life in general :)

Tank on Brother, Tank on.

/poke Ciderhelm WTB podcast, pst

Joel_D
03-04-2009, 08:28 AM
I feel its wrong that a warrior tank has to start specing heavyish into arms just to do thier job. I went back to a more typical prot spec myself and plan on going fury for fun when dual specs do come out.

onyxtank
03-04-2009, 08:38 AM
I rolled a prot warrior during TBC because I was in a casual/social guild that found raiding extremely challenging, bordering on not feasible.

I had decided my only chance at raiding was to switch guilds or join pugs. I liked my guild, which included real-life friends, too much to bail on them. I had a rogue at the time and found that no guild running a raid wanted a rogue in their group to fill in a spot.

Everyone was looking for tanks though. So I rolled a tank and did some raiding and all was good.

Now with the Lich King I find it's just the opposite. Most groups are always full on tanks and are looking for DPS. Here's the crazy thing... before I rolled the prot warrior, in a fit of rage after being kicked out of my 3 raid of the week because, "We need to make room for a real class," I deleted my rogue.

So here I am now excited about dual specs. I can add fury spec and always have a chance at getting in a raid group that fits my real-life schedule. No longer do I have to wait for a midnight raid, knowing I have to get up for work at 7am.

But after listening to the podcast I am torn. I like tanking actually, more than I liked playing the rogue. I also take pride in it and consider myself above average at it. I also like raiding though, and with my schedule having the ability to fill a DPS spot on a whim is enticing.

So here is a question. Can I create a second off-tank prot spec, with enough dps to be a viable dps-only addition to a raid? Or should I just suck it up and have one prot spec that I use to main tank and off tank, while having a dps spec to do dps?

Maybe the ultimate question is if I am even elite enough to even care about all this. I guess I should just add a fury spec and accept I am not a main tank.

Ulushnar
03-04-2009, 08:54 AM
Yep I forsee 3 types of dual specs.

The "Tank it Tank it, all the time" - 2 different tanking specs for different types of encounters.

The "Furious OT" - Fury main spec, a basic tanking setup for the second build.

The "I PeeVeePee sitting down" spec, a main spec (tanking or DPS) and then a PVP related build. The PVP build would be a PVProt (if man spec tanking) or a Arms build.

Me personally, going with the Furious OT as I dont have the time or resources (or drive right now) to MT it up hard core.

I'm going with number 4:

The "MT with options". I'm GM and an MT of a small 10-man guild. It'd be easy for me to MT every fight out there, but I try to be fair about rotations, especially since our tanks are amongst our most active players. With that in mind, my offspec will be Retribution, so I can DPS some of the one-tank fights (like Maly) and also sub as DPS for an evening if we're short.

Magnuss
03-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Ven, I absolutely agree with everything you have said here. The investment in the tank is what makes him the maintank to the raid. They dont always have to be the one in charge, they dont always have to be the one on the dragon, but they do always have to be the one that the raid knows wont let them down. Having the raid put their confidence in me like that and KNOW that I am not going to let myself fall down to average levels is what keeps me doing it. Outstanding Podcast.

Widdox
03-04-2009, 09:47 AM
I am already taking just about "EVERY" tanking talent in prot. If I had more options in protect to become more threat or block oriented I would do it.

Because Paladins / Druids are tri spec I don't see many going with 2 tank specs.

Now Warriors and DKs, I totally see people having 2 tank specs.

Fragz0r
03-04-2009, 10:31 AM
Damn you Vene. I was collecting my Fury set and hoping I might DPS in a raid once in a while. And then I listened to this... And damn, your are so right. Thanks for the wake up call.

F*** mediocrity. 2x prot it is then.

Mhoram
03-04-2009, 10:37 AM
damn you Vene. I was collecting my Fury set and hoping I might DPS in a raid once in a while. And then I listened to this. And damn your are so right. Unfortunately :)

2x it is then.

Well, there's nothing stopping you from respeccing one of the specs every so often (at least, not that I've heard). Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.

veneretio
03-04-2009, 10:40 AM
damn you Vene. I was collecting my Fury set and hoping I might DPS in a raid once in a while. And then I listened to this. And damn your are so right. Unfortunately :)

2x it is then.
Well you should still be collecting a Fury set too! You never know when there will be a gimmick fight that has casters tanking or one where zero tanks are required. Plus, you can often throw on a few of these fury pieces for trash or light hitting bosses in order to do extra damage and speed things up.

therman
03-04-2009, 10:41 AM
Thing is, I'm a hardcore prot. I love being prot. I spend hours researching and keeping up with the latest news concerning prot. I've been prot since just before BC came out and loved every minute of it.

But on 1-tank fights, I'm not tanking.

We've got another prot warrior who MTs everything. not because he's better than me, but he's been in the guild alot longer and he's been MT since before I joined, so I don't mind.

That said, can I really justify not taking fury as my second spec? on progression fights where we'll need all the DPS we can get, and there's only one tank, my second prot spec is going to be going to waste.

T.L.D.R. version: I'm a hardcore tank, but in this case the good of the raid > my individual desires.

Thad
03-04-2009, 10:48 AM
And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.

yeah i have the same question. been trying to figure out kind a spec i could use for a second prot spec. hoping tankspot gives some ideas in a bit.

tripp6sic6
03-04-2009, 10:48 AM
I just don't buy the idea that you must never DPS to be a "True MT" or that wanting to use your second spec to DPS makes you any less of a tank. None of these things affect the level of your play as a tank.

Preparing for each situation is the only way to be exceptional. We can agree on that. You should be specing and gearing for each individual encounter, but I don't think for a second that it is more inspirational to your raid that you switching using the Dual-spec feature or to use a traditional respec. That kind of trust that you are talking about is built through playing with people and consistently doing your job night-in and night-out.

Being versatile is not a sign of less dedication to your main role. Ciderhelm and Lore both have gone DPS for their raids. I don't think anyone on here can question either of their dedication to tanking or think that they inspire their raid any less when they are tanking.

I understand your points, but respectfully disagree.

veneretio
03-04-2009, 10:52 AM
Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

And a question - I thought the 15/5/51 spec was the best tank spec out there. What spec are you all thinking of using as your second spec, then, and why, if the first one is so good? I'm asking honestly - I don't see why you'd need two tank specs if the first is so highly regarded.
Sometimes what people want to do is what someone tells them to do. Nothing wrong with taking advice at times ;)

As to my 2nd spec, I'm looking at either a very heavy Arms UA build for maximum single-target dps/threat or one that dips into Fury for more utility and (de)buffs in case of fights where I'm isolated from my OT or more to the point, that my OT is switching to Fury! What's the point in my OT being able to switch to Fury for more dps if he's forced to stay in a buff spec to help me? There'll be a far higher raid dps gain by me losing DW and doing the work myself than forcing my OT to still dps as Prot! O.o

Not to mention, when you change specs, it changes your Glyphs which can make for an even more massive shift from 1 spec to another. That being said, just like everyone else, I'll have to wait and see what the PTR ends up offering for us to know for sure what my 2nd prot spec will look like.

(pulled this out of my previous comment since editting it in probably would cause it to get lost and I think it's a good question)

hyjalwar
03-04-2009, 11:14 AM
I find that i agree with your sentiment, but in the end must disagree with the outcome, only because i think one must take there guild makeup into the equation.
Maybe that is just the fact that i both mt and gm for my guild and its the gm in me speaking.
I know that i really really really want to take two tank specs. Since i already have at least 3 dif gear setups for tanking, 2 specs already isn't enough for the things i do. I have been prot since release, i leveled prot all three times, even when it really sucked to do so. But at this point my guild has sort of tankopia. At least three awesome mts and probably half a dozen more up and coming really good tanks.
Thing is i am the guy your talking about in the podcast to my guild, people always want me there, even if im just standing in a corner or holding some trash add that anyone could do. Ive tanked our guild successfully through every encounter that wotlk currently offers short of some achievements. But so have the other 2 mts we have.
And i only ever want to tank, but i cant be a spot hog either, and im tired of being worthless guy in the corner for something that is essentially being 9maned or 24maned, when i could be at least doing damage. So unless bliz finally gets off the rusty dusty and gives prot war at least acceptable dps while not tanking (dear god i hope someday), im going to have to take a fury off spec for my guild. So i can still come and be there as an icon, and off tank some add or what not if they need me to, but also not be worthless when im not actually tanking.

Fragz0r
03-04-2009, 11:30 AM
Well, there's nothing stopping you from respeccing one of the specs every so often (at least, not that I've heard). Do what you want, not what somebody tells you to do.

The podcast just reminded me what brought me to tanking in the first place. Some time ago, when the content actually required you to be more than average and game wasn't so trivialized. I wanted to be the best. I think I lost it somewhere in between farming Lamenamaras and running out of content in 2 raid days. Hopefully Ulduar will change this.

geros
03-04-2009, 11:36 AM
I also have to respectfully disagree with the taking 2x tanking specs.

I would've loved two tanking specs back in TBC when I warrior MT'd though. Since I've defected over to the evil DK ways I'd really also love 2 tanking specs. The three DK trees bring three really different tanking styles and it'd be great to switch from aoe tanking to ST tanking easily on the fly. Granted, I can probably come up with a strong enough hybrid aoe tank / dps build so that I don't feel too gimpy when not tanking.

As a person who has always made sure all tanks in the group are strong, I can't limit myself to just tanking. If I wasn't the right fit for a progression fight, I'm not going to force the raid to shove a square peg into a round hole. Warriors had a lot more capability to do protdps in TBC, so it was a ton easier to make the call to let a pally/druid tank encounters when not every tank was needed.

If one tank in the group doesn't have a dps spec, that tank is going to end up tanking on progression content unless class balance is out of whack to the point in which the tank isn't actually capable of tanking. It's forcing the raid to not min/max on tanking roles because someone didn't get the big picture enough to hybridize their roles. Plenty of warrior 'MT's' dps'd or respecced on fights to min/max for the raid just as well many druids/pallies respecced to do the same. Now blizzard makes that easy as pie, and the trend is that "dedicated" prot warriors will try to avoid hybridization like the plague because bears are going to steal their jerbs.

corum
03-04-2009, 11:36 AM
Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneretio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

Tatian
03-04-2009, 11:48 AM
Thank you Vene. Long time MT. I feel the same passion you do. I am sure that if people took the time studying and practicing as we do tanking there is no boss you could not kill.

MTs don't scream in vent. We lead our raids with a calm confidence.

Tatian

veneretio
03-04-2009, 11:50 AM
Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneratio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.
I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

I didnít want anyone to get the impression that youíre a bad tank if you donít go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if youíre an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that thatís not going to change and if youíre in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.

Assist
03-04-2009, 11:51 AM
Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.

Darkphyre
03-04-2009, 11:56 AM
I just don't buy the idea that you must never DPS to be a "True MT" or that wanting to use your second spec to DPS makes you any less of a tank. None of these things affect the level of your play as a tank.

Preparing for each situation is the only way to be exceptional. We can agree on that. You should be specing and gearing for each individual encounter, but I don't think for a second that it is more inspirational to your raid that you switching using the Dual-spec feature or to use a traditional respec. That kind of trust that you are talking about is built through playing with people and consistently doing your job night-in and night-out.

Being versatile is not a sign of less dedication to your main role. Ciderhelm and Lore both have gone DPS for their raids. I don't think anyone on here can question either of their dedication to tanking or think that they inspire their raid any less when they are tanking.

I understand your points, but respectfully disagree.

I've gotta agree with Tripp here there are some points that i agree,and some that i respectfully disagree with as well

Sure,with the upcoming dual specs you CAN spec into 2 seperate tanking builds,and if you've been on the PTR,it's amazingly simple to do and literally just requires you pressing about 4 buttons,maybe 5 with closetgnome

But when you say only the "True" MT's will spec into 2 seperate tanking builds,i've gotta call shenanigans on that

A maintank will be there for their guild Under Prot,Fury,Ret,Resto,Blood,Unholy,it doesn't matter.A maintank doesn't have any ambition for themselves,only ambition for their guild(in fact i think it's a signature around here somewhere)A maintank is only the guy or gal who has put forth the blood and sweat into understanding how not only their class works,but the raid in it's entirety.

It's the guy or gal who admits,hey! i fucked up here and there!Guess i should wait or foresee it next time,or maybe wowhead can help a bit

Or says to the mage,hey,you're doing great! but try doing this,moving this way,wait until "X" happens to cast "Y"

It's the person that for those few brief hours(or however long you raid) that is leading a group of misfits through the abyss itself,you're the first person in and the last person out,and you damn well better have a smile on your face the entire time :)

Because,yes,it is rather easy to be a MT nowadays,as far as gear goes...but you're not selling your gear,and this is one point i agree with.You're selling yourself! you're selling your attitude,confidence to your entire raid and you're telling them "This is gonna suck guys,but at the end of the day,i'll make sure it dies and you're all alive"

Because you not only work with yourself and fellow tanks,but you're working with healers and DPS,you're working with every single individual for the benefit of the raid,to give you better understanding of the raid from all perspectives,granted it's not a first person perspective(in a 3rd person camera ironically)

And yes,that attitude is very much infectious,hopefully you have enough of it that it will rub off onto fellow guildies and make them strive to be beyond anything that is "mediocre"

A maintank has alot more to worry about than worrying about 2 different specs for what will garner the same results

I do not question your method or ideas,i just disagree with them

I did enjoy your podcast and hope to hear more in the future

Tatian
03-04-2009, 11:56 AM
Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneretio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

You took what he said the wrong way. If you like your guild then you must do what you have mentioned. If you want to be an MT then start up a guild and start recruiting. I know my story is that I started my guild with some friends and it grew. Was it easy, Hell no. But here I am MT.

Read the story of Ciderhelm... he devoted himself to starting and running a top end guild and boom today he has a black drake.

Most people don't want to be MT becuase when the raid wipes becuase you didn't explain the fight right, or you didn't move the boss, or you didn't use shield wall it is your fault. I know I take the blame for alot of wipes in my guild jsut to keep morale up. Morale > gear/skill/whatever you have. As MT you might be tanking the dragon but I am more importantly make sure my warlock is in a good mood and focused.

Tatian

Assist
03-04-2009, 12:00 PM
I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

I didn’t want anyone to get the impression that you’re a bad tank if you don’t go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if you’re an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that that’s not going to change and if you’re in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.


The very post you referenced details stepping down as a main tank sometimes. I disagree that having a "main tank" gives a psychological advantage. Having a clearly defined MT gives a very significant disadvantage when that tank is not available for a raid. What happens if that tank quits? or leaves the guild? You quite possibly just lost weeks of progression. Your guild should be able to trust all of your tanks. If not, then your tanks need more training, or they need more time actually tanking.

You also talked about PVPing in order to see things from a different perspective. Shouldn't that also apply to switching over to fury? A good warrior should be able to excel at dps as well as they excel at prot if they are allowed to respec and reglyph. We all know that gear is not a shortage if you are hitting naxx regularly. I guarantee that if you learn to maximise your dps as fury, you will up your damage and tps as prot at the same time.

Petninja
03-04-2009, 12:13 PM
Long time lurker here, first time poster, so you will probably eat me alive, but whatever.
I always loved Tankspot and i must say i really regret that i listened to this podcast.

Yes, Veneretio makes very good points, but it's all ruined for me with all that arrogance. Veneratio, you basically tell us that we suck for having prot/dps dual specs.
So many tanks (me included) invests so much time to be the best tanks possible, but for some reason just can't be MT. We would love to have five prot builds but we can't - but you just egoistically say that we are worse then those that have them (which means 'worse then you' i suppose).

Thanks a lot.

Why does this bother you? Ven is talking about min/maxing, the hallmark of exceptional play. He wrote that podcast to help people, so people can take something away from it. He didn't write it so he could tell you he thinks you suck. If you aren't able to take anything away from it, that's fine. If it helps you, that's fine also.

Think of this podcast as Veneretio offering suggestions to tanks who are looking for more ways to excel at what they are doing, not as law and the only option there is. I know I don't need to have two prot specs to be competitive, but I'll have two because it will make me a better tank.

On a different note, it's nice to see some more podcasts on the news page. I wonder if we could get some authors from the other tank classes to show up too. I don't see too many DK or Druid posts making the main page, and I worry it's giving the "Tankspot doesn't like druids and DKs" feel to people.Maybe they're just shy ;).

Bung
03-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Could you please please please list the abilities you would have in both protect specs? Sounds like a good idea. I just want to pick your brain on the two specs and what situations they would be used.

Bung

Mhoram
03-04-2009, 12:29 PM
Sometimes what people want to do is what someone tells them to do. Nothing wrong with taking advice at times ;)

As to my 2nd spec, I'm looking at either a very heavy Arms UA build for maximum single-target dps/threat or one that dips into Fury for more utility and (de)buffs in case of fights where I'm isolated from my OT or more to the point, that my OT is switching to Fury! What's the point in my OT being able to switch to Fury for more dps if he's forced to stay in a buff spec to help me? There'll be a far higher raid dps gain by me losing DW and doing the work myself than forcing my OT to still dps as Prot! O.o

Not to mention, when you change specs, it changes your Glyphs which can make for an even more massive shift from 1 spec to another. That being said, just like everyone else, I'll have to wait and see what the PTR ends up offering for us to know for sure what my 2nd prot spec will look like.

(pulled this out of my previous comment since editting it in probably would cause it to get lost and I think it's a good question)

There is something wrong with pushing advice as fact, though. If we don't want to be carbon copies of each other, then we shouldn't try to be carbon copies of each other, now, should we?

That would appear to be Satrina's point all over the place, would it not? :cool:

Argamasilla
03-04-2009, 12:29 PM
There is no one-size-fits-all way to choose your talent points. This is true now and will still be true regardless of the number of different specs Blizzards decides to implement.

A few observations though on how this will likely play out depending on your tanking status...

If you are a progression tank, multiple specs are not going to be that big of an impact. You were probably already porting out to respec and getting summoned back in on a per fight basis; maybe even multiple times per fight to tune your spec to that fight. That goes for all the raid members, not just tanks. So at best it will just speed up the progression by allowing you to try 2 or more specs before needing to respec.

We have already seen the discussion on Tankspot about the limited number of slots in a raid for tanks. Any raid should be able to support 2 tanks. Undeniably there are/will be fights that require 3 tanks, some that would be easier with 4 and those that only need 1.

As a guild raid leader, you can control moving characters in and out of the raid to give your run the best chance at success. If you are pugging a raid together, you could try asking people to step out, or booting them out, but your raids will quickly get a bad reputation and at best you will only be able to pug scrubs that will do anything to even see one boss.

So when you are pugging raids, you will have to choose who you accept to your raid carefully, as you will be stuck with them for the duration. The starting raid composition will be something like 2/8/15 tanks/heals/DPS.

Given the choice between dual-proct spec tanks and Proct/DPS, a raid leader may choose (1) dual-proct, maybe (2) but no more. This doesn't mean that you will never get a raid position in a pug, only that you have just cut your chances down to 1 in 25, while if you can dps or tank as needed, you could have a 16 in 25 chance (any of the 15 dps slots + 1 tank slot).

Pug means that the raid leader does not know you, can not make a skill based assesment, and has no investment in providing you with a spot; unlike a guild that may give you a slot dual proct spec to enhance the guild.

So, if you all you want to do is tank, then you have to accept that you will not be going on as many raids, period. This is fair. Healing classes have had to respec for the good of the raid for so long, and now that it is as easy as clicking a button to respec, there is no excuse why warriors should not tank/dps spec (unless, as I said you are the MT in a guild).

I would guess that MOST fights in the new content will be tankable with a standard utility tank spec. This means that even if you are tank/dps spec, it does not mean that you will never be tanking bosses, it just means you will not ALWAYS be tanking bosses.

And, it may work out to be 4 or 5 protection builds suitable for different hard modes, in which case it opens up MORE slots in a raid for tanking / DPS enabled classes; the raid leader can't have all the builds in one player anyway, so they may as well take (4) tanks, (1) of which has dual tank and the other (3) each have a differnet tank build.....

Petninja
03-04-2009, 12:33 PM
The very post you referenced details stepping down as a main tank sometimes. I disagree that having a "main tank" gives a psychological advantage. Having a clearly defined MT gives a very significant disadvantage when that tank is not available for a raid. What happens if that tank quits? or leaves the guild? You quite possibly just lost weeks of progression. Your guild should be able to trust all of your tanks. If not, then your tanks need more training, or they need more time actually tanking.


I think the problem here is that he's using "MT" in a way that it wasn't designed to be used. Main Tanks are generally considered the guys who stand in front of the dragon every time, and does the most Boss tanking. He's talking about the guy who keeps the morale of the group intact, and gets them through the mess time after time. It's one thing to say people should not have to rely on one guy for this, but that's sometimes unrealistic. I spend a lot of time on the healer role now, since that's what the guild needed. It's not uncommon for me to get whispers from people if things aren't going well saying "I'd feel a lot better if you were tanking this." It's not even that the guy is doing it wrong, because he usually isn't. When I step into the role I take command and God help me if I'm going to let a 40ft tall dragon stand between me and the gear I'm about to pick off his corpse.

I think there's a conflict between the community on what MT means, and that's why you're thinking this way. He's not suggesting you put all your eggs into one basket. He's suggesting that most groups of people have a favorite basket they like to put their eggs in, and now we have new ways to make that basket even better.

Thad
03-04-2009, 12:34 PM
Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.

i honestly don't feel that when you pick up a class you should master all specs. i mean i enjoy tanking so i stuck with it i've never had an interest in dps i can't imagine forcing say a druid to be able to dps tank and heal on the fly for whichever is needed.

i feel you should be allowed to play the spec you enjoy and not forced to spec into something else just cause you're capable of it.

Petninja
03-04-2009, 12:38 PM
Could you please please please list the abilities you would have in both protect specs? Sounds like a good idea. I just want to pick your brain on the two specs and what situations they would be used.

Bung

Bung, I'll bet he'll have the standard 15/5/51 spec and his UA spec will look something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAMIzf0t00rR0bZZVctrx0zid). This is, of course, assuming that the trees don't change around in 3.1. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't use an axe you shouldn't put 5 points in the axe skill :P.

Alent
03-04-2009, 12:40 PM
Bung, I'll bet he'll have the standard 15/5/51 spec and his UA spec will look something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAMIzf0t00rR0bZZVctrx0zid). This is, of course, assuming that the trees don't change around in 3.1. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't use an axe you shouldn't put 5 points in the axe skill :P.

I would think you'd be better off with a UA spec for bosses and a piercing howl/imp cleave build for trash?

Darksend
03-04-2009, 12:44 PM
left my comment on tankingtips already but re posting here

---------------------------------------------------------

EXCELLENT vene, absolutely amazing

i made a blog on tankspot a while back during sunwell about how there was no such thing as a main tank anymore, but that everything has because a tanking squad or tank team, but you are absolutely right, just because you are not the one standing in front of the dragon does not mean you are not the main tank. look at sarth, EVERYTHING this expac comes back to sarth 3d so far /sigh, i would say that the person actually tanking sarth is the least "main tankish" of all the tanks in the encounter, the drake tank is a main tank in the sense they are trusted by their guild to keep agro and make sure its positioned properly etc to make sure it dies before the second drake spawns, the whelp/fire add tank is a main tank in the sense that they are trusted by the healers to get everything off of them and not let them die, to properly kite the adds so they do not get hit by wall and enrage, to not turn thier back and get insta-gibbed with no avoidance, the sarth tank just stands there and moves maybe 5-6 times and hits cooldowns when needed not even attacking because if they did they would kill themselves and cant attack because the boss is immune

as a druid there are 2 tanking specs but the other one is redundant because we always have a frost DK (redundant in that you lose 4% damage for the druid thunderclap) so for my druid i never intended for my dual spec to be anything but a cat spec

for my warrior, i have had for the past month my 2 specs picked out and never ever planed on being anything but 2 prot specs

i am actually quite surprised at that poll

Are you going to use 2 Tanking Specs come Dual spec time?

* No (45%, 104 Votes)
* Yes (41%, 96 Votes)

i agree, i could probably use 3-4 specs for prot especially with the new glyphs coming out, just like the old adage when asking which item was better the answer was always "gear for the encounter" well now it is "spec/glyph for the encounter". just like some warriors every maly would reglyph for a single fight then swap it back as soon as the boss was dead, its that kind of dedication that will make you a main tank for your guild

Assist
03-04-2009, 12:45 PM
i honestly don't feel that when you pick up a class you should master all specs. i mean i enjoy tanking so i stuck with it i've never had an interest in dps i can't imagine forcing say a druid to be able to dps tank and heal on the fly for whichever is needed.

i feel you should be allowed to play the spec you enjoy and not forced to spec into something else just cause you're capable of it.

We might have to agree to disagree then. We tend to have a few more people wanting to raid any given night than we can actually take. We are required to have 3 tanks for some fights, and 1 for others. Some fights we can do with 2 healers, some we need 6.

Next time we see a fight that requires 1 tank and has an enrage timer we may or may not be rushing to make, then who is wisest to drop? The specialist tank who can only tank, or the warrior who can both tank and dps effectively? The same goes for healers. Bringing 6 healers into naxx is overkill for 80% of the fights there. Having healers that can swap their gear / spec and be able to speed up the raid is extremely valuable.

If naxx is an indication of future raids, I'd structure my raids something like this (this is just quick thinking, I might adjust if I ever really have to make up such a roster):

1x Full time Tank / Clear leader. Subspec focused on threat and damage.
2x Prot / DPS
2x Full time Healers
4x Healer / DPS Hybrids

16x dps (Specs irrelevant to discussion)

When I handle recruitment for our guild and for raids, versatility is a very hot commodity

Daavos
03-04-2009, 12:46 PM
Calling tanks who do not use two prot specs mediocre is highly arrogant and unnecessary.

Warriors are in fact tank / dps hybrids. If you cannot effectively turn into a fury warrior in a time of need, You are not filling your potential. I do not recruit tanks in my guild who cannot dps, and likewise, I do not recruit fury warriors who cannot tank.

There is too much variance in fights to allow people to focus exclusively on one aspect of their class.

Malygos is a 1 tank fight. (2 if you want to be lazy with adds in P2). We have 3-4 tanks available on most given nights. I'd rather have tanks that can convert into fury warriors and ret paladins than tanks that can turn into tanks that are 5% better for a certain fight any day of the week.

You can always drop the 50g and respect your tank side into improved spell reflect or whatever the gimmick talent for the fight that you are working on is, when you are actually working on that fight. Once you've learned the fight, imp spell reflect is not nearly as necessary, and a standard tanking build will be fine.


TLDR: In the course of one night of raiding, we have a lot more changes in number of tanks required than we have need for tanks to refine their glyphs and talents to optimize for a certain fight. Having tanks that can swap to dps specs and glyphs at the drop of a hat is far more useful in most situations. If you are a tank who cannot respec to fury and perform competitively, you are not doing your job.

^ This.... needed to be said. This podcast should be entitled "Return of the Elitest Proc Warrior from tBC".

Assist
03-04-2009, 12:56 PM
(edit: quoted the wrong post. This was directed a Petninja's post regarding eggs in baskets)


If you ask me, if your healers have second thoughts about having your other tanks tank, then you need to either train your other tanks better, or you need to get your healers to work with your other tanks more and build some trust.

Don't get me wrong - I understand your definition of MT. We call that person the bulldog. He leads the clear, and keeps the pace of the raid rolling. I think that the guild is better off if they can function without that player. Usually that means having others who can easily step up and fill the role.

If you are "The Bulldog" for your guild, no matter how important, appreciated, and celebrated you are, you are doing your guild a disservice by monopolizing the role. You will also find yourself in a tough situation if you ever choose to stop playing the game, as that will leave your guild in a tough spot.

kaegan
03-04-2009, 12:57 PM
Our guild does not have a 'main tank'. We have about 4 well geared, experienced, talented tanks that work together and rotate tanking on bosses, etc. These are the people who will almost always show up for a raid.

I have amassed a decent set of fury gear, and when an instance needs only 1 tank, guess what happens? If I get to tank, great. If not, I am not sitting outside the instance pouting. I get to contribute, see the fights from a different perspective, get to watch someone else tank and either learn something or give some advice.

Having a DPS offspec is a double edged sword. Do I get asked to tank less on these fights than another tank who doesn't have the gear to go dps? maybe. but I am not going to hurt the raid just so I can say "oh I can't spec DPS, so you better let me tank"

corum
03-04-2009, 01:03 PM
You took what he said the wrong way.
He should have said on the start that his podcast is just for and only for main tanks, i wouldn't have listened then. But he didn't.


Why does this bother you?
Because i was asked to leave the raid when we went from naxx to malygos, and for not wanting that to happen again i'm getting told that i'm an mediocre tank.

He didn't write it so he could tell you he thinks you suck.But yet he did, weird.


I didnít want anyone to get the impression that youíre a bad tank if you donít go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec.
out of context a little: "There are tanks among us that want to tank and that want to dps and there's US, the PURE TANKS." I know that doesn't mean precisly others are bad, but still it looks like 'pure' elitism to me...

warrack
03-04-2009, 01:28 PM
I see dual spec as a bandage to the current balancing of tanks. If i have a boss were i need lets say a 1 min SW but another were the entire raid has to do max dps for fight to beat the enrage timer. How i see it blizzard is creating our specs for us. Soon this will be prot blizzard spec 1 and 2. I see the dualas a main spec and pvp spec but the Dev probally made fights like malygos and then fight like patchworks were u need 2 tanks on one fight and one tank on another so I will go tank/dps since they about the same only difference is one is infront of the mob other is behind it.

LtBean
03-04-2009, 01:31 PM
Yes, the days of the single, fix-all "main tank" are over.

Look, We need to admit 2 things. First there are two types of encounters. 10 man and 25 man. Anyone who has built a pug knows what chore it is to have 9 people stand around while you wait for the 1 heavily specialized, correctly geared, properly talented, intelligent, competent person of tank class CLASS_NAME which is the only person who stand a chance at tanking BOSS_NAME. So for 10 man raids, any 1 of the tanking classes should be successful if they are correctly geared and bring the full arsenal of their talents to bear in an encounter.

However and this is my second point, there are At least 5 types of tanks. Warrior druid Death Knight and Pally and none of the above (magetank,rougetank, locktank,huntartank etc). I disagree with the homoginization of tank classes. Diveristy brings strength. in a 25 man raid there are enough positions that a raid leader can afford to bring 3 or 4 types of tanks. If there is enough overlap in tank abilities so that boss can be tanked successfully by any two of the tank classes, but the zone provides moments for each type of tank to shine, then that adds yet another element or strategy to boss encounter and raid composition with leaving you totally hosed cause your pally tank is in bramuda for the week.

If theres only 1 type of tank, there will only be 1 type of boss.

Cottoncandie
03-04-2009, 01:45 PM
I think there is something else to dual specs to consider. People like me if i had my wish i would be the MT and honestly i hate it when i have to OT adds it blows. I wanna be taking down that big guy not watching someone else do it. I know i know my role is just a s vital as his and everyone else's but still is thrive to be that MT. But I'm not as geared as the MT so i stay as the OT. So i will take a prot build with good threat stuff like deep wounds and stuff liek that. I will also have a full on fury dps spec for when a single tank fight pops up and i don't feel useless. Being an OT in Saphiron, Malygos, and thos eother single tank fights im forgetting is extremely boring.

Kavtor
03-04-2009, 02:16 PM
I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

Far, far better to be over the top, create a little controversy and interest by providing a passionate viewpoint that than being bland and typeset. Which is of course why I disagree with you so strongly, but it's all part of the fun!

Pastulio
03-04-2009, 03:17 PM
also kinda curious as to what the 2 specs people are gonna choose for prot. i would love to be able to lay the wood with my deeps canon but realisticly in my guilds raids there isnt any room for me to deeps and not tank since datz wut day pae meh tuh du.

SO, out of all the possible spec choices my tiny brain has come up which of these combos do you smarty pants alpha bombs think is best.


traditional 15/5/51 spec
some kind of spell reflect raid ass saver from all the spells spec
the heavy arms single target deeps mode spec
some kind of DnD errr AoE spec
fury something maybe buff or w/e spec?
the "dude no titans grip is gud prot spec yo" lying spec
also with the da da da duel glyphs im almost thinking HEY wtf why dont i just use 2 different variations of the 15/5/51 spec and just swap the glyphs around to suit (and technicly talants) single target or multi target.

but then im like HEY wtf y dont i just buy a bunch of glyphs and do it myself and save muneez, but then i wouldnt be cool (and im lazy)

this post was almost completly unimformative and if you have gotten this far im sorry i think i just wasted your life :( but i spent a good 10 mins writting it so i think im gonna post it anyways

Arold
03-04-2009, 05:28 PM
Even though Vene plays human, I imagined him standing in front of a giant horde banner, Patton style.

Kazeyonoma
03-04-2009, 05:41 PM
unless I'm mistaken. Vene... is quite the green skin:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Darkspear&n=Veneretio)

Thos
03-04-2009, 11:07 PM
Well said. I haven't tanked for my guild in a while, not since WoTLK came out in fact, but the concept of the MT is there. Its more than just a title for that nights raid. Its a calling. Its a mindset. Even if the MT is not performing typical MT duties, while they are present, everyone knows that they are capable of handling any snag or player disconnect or glitch that comes along, because they prepare for things like that to happen. MT's come prepared to perform any role necessary to complete the encounter, even if it means switching roles mid-fight.

And as far as dual speccing goes, I see nothing wrong with prot/prot. And my third spec: rogue. If I wanted to dps, I'd very well just play a dps class.

Tonylicious
03-04-2009, 11:07 PM
Meh, seems like a lot of hot air about the my second and first spec are going to be protection. Dual specs will not be the end of respecing.

People who are trying to progress will still be specing for the encounter they're doing, not unnecessary specs. I have trouble thinking of a time in the past where it was necessary to respec between trash and boss, even if you are a very specialized tank spec for that particular fight, there are other people with tanking specs!... and probably will be several with a sub tanking spec come dual specs.

I will have my second spec as a DPS spec, I will still tank all of my guild's progression encounters as long as I have since I formed the guild and as it isn't something absurd where only one tank that isn't a warrior is by far the ideal. A DPS subspec will be more useful to any guild that has competent tanks in addition to the MT.

Maybe I'm a unique snowflake because I'm amazing at all warrior specs. If a fight isn't reliant on tank skill and more on beating an enrage timer I'd rather tear up the damage meter since it is more likely to be whats holding us back, and that situation seems more likely than needing a precise variation spec, which as I said, I'm not against doing, it just seems less likely to be useful. I guess that's what makes me a Raid Leader, doing what would benefit the raid most not what I prefer doing. Definitely double specing into that.

There is the chance that we will be working on perfecting two different encounters that benefit from two unique tanking specs, thats the only real situation where two tank specs will be of value. Other than that it just seems like a way to avoid doing anything but tanking, which depending on the fights that we see could be at the detriment of the raid when you're forcing yourself into a tanking position because that's all you're capable of.

Tarkonn
03-05-2009, 03:00 AM
You know, I'll be perfectly honest, I was half expecting a long pause for this guy to take a bong hit in the middle of the podcast.

As others said, the cast came off extremely elitist. prot/prot is fine if you want to do that. prot/dps is just as good.

As far as calling people MT and OT anymore, kiss it goodbye. If you can't swap tanks in at-will, you're doing something wrong with your tank core. Due to what Blizzard did, tanks are tanks. Nothing more, nothing less. Being an exceptional player should not be your defining point compared to other players. Your defining point should be your ability to work with others to bring them up to your level.

If you ask around at Blizz, I don't think you'll meet one person who says dual-spec was made to define roles, rather it lets players expand into roles they previously could not.

You can be a MT. I'll be a tank. The other 5 tanks in my guild will be tanks too. On any given night, all of us will be able to fill the spot we're needed for.

People talking about anything past the word tank are just people who are looking for a justification to shake their e-peen in hand. Hands down.

winnetou
03-05-2009, 03:01 AM
While I agree that two varieties of protection specs prove a great degree of preparation and determination, my personal decision was influenced by the content we face every week:
Plenty of single-tank encounters. We take 3-4 tanks per raid. Our bosstank is announced just before the pull.
While not tanking, the choice will be doing a lousy job trying to dps in a prot spec or swapping over to a dps spec and making myself less of a burden and possibly adding enjoyment to the fight.
Therefore my choice will be prot/dps. And I believe it will work out much better for my situation.

Krashtork
03-05-2009, 03:31 AM
I liked the podcast Vene, while I'm still not convinced that Protx2 is the way to go, I do appreciate bringing back the pride in being a main tank!

Honestly, I dig the elitism. I have zero issues with elitism what so ever, so long as the person is in fact elite. I do consider myself a good player, I do consider myself an elitist, and I don't really care that much if people take issue with that or understand why. Maybe it's a biproduct of the age of political "correctness" when you can win trophies in little league even if you lose every game miserably. But hey, we're all "winners" right? Gag me.

Finkleroy
03-05-2009, 03:49 AM
Wouldn't really make much sense to take 2 bear specs. The only tempting situational talent is the stun/fear damage reduction one, and we've only seen one (easy) boss stun/fear the tank.

On the issue of "who does the raid want tanking X boss": even if the answer is you, it isn't necessarily a good thing. Maybe they want that person tanking because he only does 1/3 of the dps the other tanks put out when they are called on to dps.

One way for a tank to stand out is to give a lot of the dpsers a spanking on the meters.

2ndNin
03-05-2009, 07:15 AM
"One mob, and you just stand there and get the crap kicked out of you".

Lets get rid of that Blizzard, 1:1:3, 2:2:6 2:6:17 is not the right progression path, it can be done, Council, Maulgar, Kael'thas, Al'ar, VoidReaver (until you got enough gear), Hydross, etc all had multiple main tanks, the Main tank on Sartharion is the add tank (Sartharion himself is pretty much a "can be voidwalker tanked" fight, the drakes get pretty dull as well).

The idea of a main tank cannot disappear until Blizzard stop making fights where the whole plan is 1 tank does the job, and its easily possible to make a whole expansion favouring 3tanks per raid or 3+.

Main tank confidence and having a main tank isn't true, heck my last raiding guild we didn't have a main tank either, this one we have myself and a Warrior who fit the MT mould, and again in my previous we had myself and a Warrior who fitted the mould. Being an MT isn't always about doing the MT job, but rather about stepping back to let others do it, the guild might want you to tank that scary dragon, but your job is to make the raid work, and if that means putting someone else out there to do it, either because they are better mechanically (gogo DK on sarth), or because they need the experience then thats what a MT should do.

Especially as RL as well, it is often better to take a lower stress position (where missing 1 threat rotation doesn't make your locks start seeing red) so that you can watch the fight more, High King Maulgar for example the MT / RL normally took Maulgar not because he was the hardest to tank but because it lets you do your job. I have been in Maulgar tanking Maulgar, the Lock, the Mage and the Shaman at once (we killed all but the mage and Maulgar... then the melee decided to go attack the mage), but its not a job I would pick as MT, I would rather have people suitable for the task doing it, and making it easy. Same thing has happened more recently on Illidan (Why put a warrior up there and risk sheer when a Paladin could avoid it completely), or even fights like Patchwerk (I have seen guilds put their best tank as MT rather than as the two OTs, simply because its the MT role, and it is typically a bad plan, because when the stuff hits the fan, the MT dying isn't bad, the OTs dying is).

KelianVayres
03-05-2009, 09:26 AM
This podcast is amazing, you truly said, what it is to be a main tank. Myself, i was dps all the way till 70, and than on my first Kara raid, i received about 4 tanking epics, as no one needed it, Raid leader just gave them to me, incase i'll ever be tank. Actually after that day Raid Leader, who is my good friend, every day was telling me to try tanking, as he was tank himself and he needed off-tank, as other guild tanks were away on vacation or something like that. So i tried...it was a long journey to gather all nessesary gear, to understand what it is, to be a tank, to learn why this spec is good and other is not so, etc. I read tons of information, i talked to many tanks, i was ansking thousands questions, i inspected every tank i saw. And i loved it, i found that in my heart, i always was a tank, and it just...when right moment came, i truly found myself...and i still love it, tanking is not just something you do in game, tanking is something more, it helped me to be more confident. I just had amazing transformation since that moment when i became tank. Yes it was hard, i had many "fail" moments, people were sceaming at me, as i was a noob tank...but i wanted to be better, always, not just good, but be an amazing, to do everything as better as possible. When i started to tank i even wasn't a group leader in dangeons, i was kind of afraid of responsibility. Yes, it was long, hard, and extremly interesting journey. After all i became a main tank, and when i heard from people that they want to go to heroics with me, when they want me to be in raid, when they were telling to me that i'm a great tank, that is a great reward for me, to know, that i can tank, that i truily can be who i am. And still, i know that i can be better, i want to be, i want to learn more, and i want to know everything about tanking, i want to try different combinations of tanking builds, and i know this journey will never end, and i will try to be as better as i can. I love tanking, it is true pleasure for me, hehe :) And when i heard your podcast, it even inspired me to be more :) And about duel spec, think i will take arms ;)
And about best tanking builds, well, its all about what we like, and how we use our abilities, every tank is unique. By present build might be not best build, but do i care..no..i love my builld, and if i will find that i want to imporove it and will find how i can do it, i will. Actually i already know, but will do it after patch :p

Molloy
03-05-2009, 09:27 AM
and word on the iTunes feed?

Kaen
03-05-2009, 11:17 AM
I have to admit, while I do agree that some tanks can go the (slight) extra mile of preparedness by using their secondary spec to be an alternate tanking spec, I definitely was laughing my ass off during about the middle third of this podcast.

Halgreg
03-05-2009, 11:34 AM
As many have suggested, having 2 tanking specs really isn't an optimum way to go, especially if you have 2-3 (or even 3-4) dedicated tanks of varying classes in your guild. The reason I say this is because at any given time, especially for warriors, your class will not be strong at tanking any given situation not because of your spec, but because of your class mechanics.

We've had a lot of different encounters in the game so far, each requiring a varying number of tanks, and a few encounters favoring a very specific type of tank. The easiest example to bring up are encounters with one tank fights. Which tank is going to go in there? If you have two tanks, a warrior and a druid, and the fight is high magic burst, it doesn't matter which spec the warrior is, the druid is preferred, thus making the warrior a burden to the raid since he very well can't DPS effectively in either of his two tanking specs. I'd like to believe that Blizzard will eventually balance the tanking classes, but it certainly won't be by the time 3.1 hits!

As tank captain of my guild, I'm going to have a lengthy discussion with my tanks about the type of tank service they want to provide to the guild, and then have their tanking spec customized to serving that role for the encounters we're going through. When they're not needed in tanking responsibilities, then they must DPS effectively. Even now, I'm very hard on my tanks when they have a sub-par DPS set. One guildie joked over vent once that one of our tanks was doing such low DPS that he was healing the boss (I lol'd) but come progression time, we can't afford that kind of sub-par performance, and it'd be a hard argument for him having 2 prot specs and wanting a tank when it's clearly an encounter suiting a druid tank.

tl;dr, I think if you have two tanking specs, then you are nearly worthless in encounters where you are not tanking. Being replaced for tanking for specific encounters is a given with our current unbalanced tank classes, so it's always better to be prepared to step down.

Stearns
03-05-2009, 12:40 PM
Well, I listend to the first 10 mins, and it seems like you are making the same point over & over in different words: some tanks take more pride than others, so those tanks should be MT. Are you not preaching to the converted here at TS? Those sentiments are so much a part of my tanking mentality and many of the good tanks I know. So given that's the case, what do you do in a very common scenario when you're top guild has 3/4 tanks all equally committed and talented? What else can you do except dual spec to dps?

Kalanor
03-05-2009, 09:29 PM
Thanks, this has made me think about the dual specs...
what would those 2 prot specs be? (links?)

Lionheart
03-05-2009, 11:32 PM
I have to admit at times that I went over the top. I don't edit my podcasts and when I get swept up in the moment I know full well that I walk a very fine line between arrogance and confidence in order to get you, the listener, to buy into the concept.

I didnít want anyone to get the impression that youíre a bad tank if you donít go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. I do want you to realize though that there's more you could be doing.

We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if youíre an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that thatís not going to change and if youíre in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too.

That being said, I do think you lose a psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank which is really what the whole podcast is about.

Being the MT is a state of mind as someone that has gone though several guild break ups and such and been forced to find other guilds I find that in short order I quickly move from low man on the tank roster to MT. Dedication and skill show though quickly if people are paying attention. Even though some of our new tanks are starting to out gear me because I have been supporting the guild rolling my healer to fill healer spots I'm still the go to man when something needs to be done and our other tanks are not cutting it.

Sure by rolling my healer I'm not improving my tank gear when I could be but that would accomplish nothing as the guild would have 6 tanks standing to do naxx and be short 2 healers as it stands our 3 best tanks are taking a back seat to get the raids done my alt is healing, our pally has respeced holy and our DK is dps spec.

In the end the guys we have doing our tanking atm still come to me for the gearing advice, tips on what they could do better, etc. To me that is being the MT. The day we have a surplus of healers you can bet i'll be rolling my tank and showing some of the tanks that are relying on gear at this point what a tank can do. There was a time when tanking stuff was hard and people still remember when I was aoe tanking as well as a pally back in 2.x as a warrior.

AS much as gear plays a roll in this game skills do still show, the first raid guild I was in on wow recuited me out of a heroic in bc when I was wearing mostly blues (I had just turned 70 a day or 2 earlier) because they saw the level of play I brought to the field and knew it would only get better with gear. Things havn't changed that much people still can look at the player and see what they do and unfortunitly some peoples feelings get hurt because lesser gear playerX is chosen to MT over the better geared playerY because the guild knows playerX will get the job done and smoother.

Blackbull
03-06-2009, 07:32 AM
Two remarks :

First, think that struck me when blizzard announced a double spec, was why 2 ? why not 3 ? Once they have the multi-spec mechanism implemented, they have the hardest part implemented, allowing more specs only 'costs' some storage space on servers, and setting a price for each spec beyond the first would ensure some degree of control over this space.
So why do they restrein it to 2 ? After all, we all have 3 talents trees, the roles in raids are generaly divided in 3 (tank-heal-dps) so 3 seems to be the 'magic' number ? It would also reinforce their moto 'bring the player, not the class' to an even more potent 'bring the player, not the spec'.
In fact i can imagine on 'good' reason for the 2 spec only : druids and paladins are the only 2 classes able to apply for the 3 roles, meanwhile rogues, mages, hunter and demonists can only apply for the dps slot. Maybe those classes would feel too much disavantaged and would reroll paladin or druid. I am one of the lucky ones to have a druid reroll, that i allready use to dps (moonkin) or heal easy fights. I think beeing also able to tank with my druid with only one click would make me shift from my war to my druid as main character. And i would be VERY sad about it.

Second, I MTed most of the content since MC, and while my guild never was close to the bests, I allways tried to MinMax my character. My feeling is that i only need one Tank spec : the one for the current progression figth. The typical Wotlk example would be the improved spell reflect for malygos. I felt this talent was mandatory for the first kill, maybe the second, but a few weeks later, the progression figth was sartharion +add, and a respec for this figth excluding spell reflect didn't make further malygos kills harder.
So in my experience, the need for min-max template is only crucial for one fight : the current progression one, for other cases, we allready switch gear and i feel it sufficient. So my second war spec will be DPS.

Grymauch
03-06-2009, 11:40 AM
and word on the iTunes feed?

I am also waiting on the iTunes feed. Can we be expecting that soon?

veneretio
03-06-2009, 12:42 PM
I am also waiting on the iTunes feed. Can we be expecting that soon?
I don't know how to link iTunes feeds, but if you search for tankingtips in iTunes it'll come up with my podcasts.

csdx
03-06-2009, 02:36 PM
I think, as others have mentioned, that the post does come off as slightly arrogant. But I think the real issue is: you're conflating an in game role (tanking) with a group dynamic role (leadership). To be sure, there is a certain amount of overlap with the two as the tank is the one seen as most 'in control' of a boss encounter. Thus the people most attracted to leadership are likely to be attracted to the tank role (how many GMs are also MTs?). But the two are not necessarily the same; it's just as easy for a healer or dps to take upon the mantle of authority you associate with the 'MT' concept.

You also address the idea of excellence with "if I go down, I want other people to question what they did wrong, not what I did" (which you also slightly conflate with the notion of MT). This is not a uniquely tank quality, it's very much a personal thing. As a DPSer, I want the same thing, no one should say to me "oh we failed because you didn't put out enough damage to beat the enrage", or "you were dead for half the fight". When I heal, I still want the same thing, no one should die from my neglect. People also strive to be the most useful to their guild, as many have said, they sacrifice personal min/maxing (2 tank specs) for overall raid min/maxing (serving another role when appropriate).

So in summary the mentality you associate with the idea of 'Main Tanking' is not so much about the tanking as it is about being a key player, both in terms of leadership ability and personal skill. This is often conflated but it is not necessary to be the MT or even a tank at all to be the one leading your raid, keeping the morale up, or just impressing everyone with your excellence. Your character's specs/glyphs don't determine if you have what it takes to be a 'Main Tank', it is that attitude that you, the player, bring to your guild and raids.

Machus
03-06-2009, 02:53 PM
Having reflected on it some more I have to say that, although your podcast is inspiring Vene, I disagree completely with tank/tank specs.

In WLK, all tanking (and healing) classes are hybrids. Dual specs make it practical enough and cheap enough to fully develop two roles for your hybrid characters. Very soon after 3.1, being a master of both your tank role and your other role, be it healing or DPS, will be a universal expectation. Refusing to do another role because you don't like it, or sucking at it for lack of practice or gear, won't be acceptable.

If you're THE tank because of the history of your guild, good for you, but you need to recognize it for the perk that it is and consider whether you want to hold onto it. The way to make the maximum contribution to your raid is to be a master of two roles. More importantly, if you are also guild leader or officer you have no option but to be a master of two roles, because you'll have to demand no less from your members and recruits.

Those who are raiding with a hybrid class and see dual specs as a freebie, it isn't. It is a responsibility, in the same sense as flasks and potions were your responsibility in older raiding. You will be expected to master two roles. If you're a raiding shaman who doesn't heal, or a druid or pally who can't tank, or a priest who can't DPS you'll have trouble applying to guilds over warlocks or rogues, not because pure classes are necessarily better at their roles but because a player who doesn't master their class will be seen as one unwilling to master the game.

velouriam
03-06-2009, 07:15 PM
If your really leet you could be the "mt" with one tank spec and you could also be the "topdps" with one dps spec. Old school style. Calling yourself an elite "mt" just cause you have two prot specs dont mean crap. Now im sure we will see numerous tanks out there that suck at tanking with two tank specs thinking they should take top priority over someone who has tank/dps duals even tho the tank/dps dual specced guy is much better tank.
"mt" to me should be defined by play style/skill...not something like speccing two specs in prot. Very opinionated preachy podcast.

That being said...i dont think this is a bad idea(and do appreciate the time spent on the podcast)...and has good usability in raid scenarios...and dare i say this rule would apply more so to dps and heals. And if we are talking about the "mt" idea being the leader and the guy ppl look to for survivability and to get them thru a fight...ok...but ill call that guy the leader.:)

Atros
03-06-2009, 09:31 PM
You're inflating the 'Main Tank' position artificially, at least in my opinion. When you say 'Two Prot specs', the thing I, personally, am hearing is 'one trick pony'. So you and your guild consider yourself a master Tank. Great. Every guild needs at least one. But then, what else can you do? Are you willing to put in time, effort, and energy into mastering the DPS side of things, or to become a solid healer?

What you are describing, at least to me, is being a great leader not so much in the raid organization level, but rather in the personal performance level. You set the bar so high that nobody even questions you did everything you could do to make an encounter succeed. However, that kind of excellence and dedication is not the exclusive property of tanks. Tanks do have the more obvious show of having fairly obvious and flashy demonstrations of when they fail. They often (but not always) are the lynchpin of whether you attempt or fail at any given encounter. However, in my mind, it takes even more dedication to learn how to do another role and excel at that on top of tanking. You can still be the "go to" guy for serious content, but it should very well be put that you contribute more to your guild if you can swallow your ego a bit about the whole raid being centered around YOU, and let other tanks who may be more suited to any particular task have their moment to shine. At the same time, you can go to your dps spec/set, that you have also min/maxed appropriately, and spank the dps who aren't quite where they should be.

Situations change for everybody. I know that with my guild, we were stalled for a long time on Archimonde for a LONG time because both of the long term prot warriors in the guild had circumstances that precluded them from raiding for a period of time. At the same time, we had three tanks (me as a feral druid, another feral druid, and a prot pally) who have all shown to be solid reliable tanks, but at serious disadvantages to that fight. I remember fighting desparately for months for a chance to prove myself as a solid tank, and pushing to tank some of the encounters that Feral Druids excelled at. Finally, though, through shown persistance and proven dedication, I had shown that I had what it takes to do the job.

Since then, those prot warriors have sadly either left the game, or scaled back their playtime. We also have had new tanks come in, including one of our rogues reroll as a DK to become a tank. We have a very solid (if somewhat bloated at times) tanking core in which we have the luxury of being able to pick and choose which class is ideal for any given encounter. The downside of this, though, is that we're often having ~3-4 tanks sitting in the raid when they're not tanking (even for fights like Malygos). I know that I, personally, shifted my priority from being a bear to being a cat. However, there are still times when, for the good of the raid, I have put on my bear suit (which while not recieving the focus of my cat suit, was still maintained to be very solid), and stood up in front of the boss when needed. I remember our first couple times at Patchwerk, when the damage he dealt wasn't trivial to keep up with. I was cat for those several attempts, where I ended up eating hatefuls because our OT's died. The next day, I came to the raid in my bear setup, and PW turned into a two shot. The guild knows I can be called upon to do what I need to do, when I need to do it. That, is proving leadership in ability.

Hidro
03-09-2009, 11:47 AM
Why always ppl talk about fury dps (pve ofcourse) warriors ?
I'm dps-ing in arms specc with only 8 talents in fury tree and i'm doing outstanding damage ... Any1 else agee with me ? Since we do have a "small" chance to execute whenever ... Doing 15-17k crits on execute lifts u way up in the damage meter .. So my dual specc will be prot/arms ... Have a good day guys ... Waiting For your replies

Vincenoir
03-10-2009, 07:12 AM
Why always ppl talk about fury dps (pve ofcourse) warriors ?
I'm dps-ing in arms specc with only 8 talents in fury tree and i'm doing outstanding damage ... Any1 else agee with me ? Since we do have a "small" chance to execute whenever ... Doing 15-17k crits on execute lifts u way up in the damage meter .. So my dual specc will be prot/arms ... Have a good day guys ... Waiting For your replies

Most people will automatically associate Fury with DPS as it, in general, does better than Arms in a PvE setting.

Now, that's not to say that you yourself don't perform better as Arms than as Fury, or that you enjoy Arms more. Half this game is finding the spec that you enjoy the most and utilizing it to the best of your abilities. If you enjoy the DPS style of Arms over Fury I say more power to you. Not everybody likes vanilla, not everybody likes chocolate. Go with what suites you best.

As for the Podcast, I have to agree with csdx that many of the qualities you were talking about would have been better attributed to being a leader more so than being an MT. Yes, many MTs tend to be the leaders of guilds and raids, but there are also healers and DPS that take up the mantle of leader who exemplify many of the same qualities you attibute to those, for lack of better wording, pure MTs.

ducduce
03-10-2009, 10:01 AM
So what do you think our second prot spec should look like

etakerns
03-10-2009, 10:17 AM
whoa , whoa, everyone needs to take a step back and relax a little. I think what this podcast is saying ......w/o directly coming out and saying it is..........

1. If u'r a warr. MT for u'r guild u will have to take 2 tanking specs if u want to remain the MT,

(*note*) Not being arrogant here but it will HONESTLY take 2 diff. tanking builds to equal to a DK's standard tanking build. Now if u'r a warr. MT for u'r guild and want to remain the warr. MT for u'r guild then the 2 warr. prot spec. is something u will have to come to terms with, POINT BLANK!!!

2. The duel spec. is something blizz has to do in order to get Druids and pallys away from tanking and start healing!!!! Duel spec @ its core has to do with blizz trying to move what is needed for raids around more and having more of what is needed (which is healz and more dps), nothing do w/ warr. being/staying MT for there guilds although it could definitely help Warrs. to stay MT or even become MT. All realms need more healers, and w/ the influx w/ DK's,,,well tanks is the last thing that is needed.

3. If i was a warr. going into a new guild and they have a pally and Dk tank there, I would prolly take the fury/prot spec. b/c if its a new guild and they already have a DK then why even bother w/ a 2prot spec. warr. who can't switch to dps when needed, b/c a DK as of right now, is the only tank out there that can basically "DO IT ALL"!!!!!!!!

veneretio
03-10-2009, 10:26 AM
So what do you think our second prot spec should look like
Addressed briefly in comment #26 (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f189/46589-tankingtips-com-podcast-7-return-mt-2.html#post188100).

aeg
03-10-2009, 02:09 PM
hellz yeah man

ninjajuicer
03-11-2009, 08:20 AM
Therman -- "T.L.D.R. version: I'm a hardcore tank, but in this case the good of the raid > my individual desires."

I totally agree.

Those that run true dual specs for the sake of their raid are the real main tanks. They are the players willing to step outside the box and make the hard choices so the raid succeeds. So, my healing and dps gear sets are way better than my tank gear. However when I'm tanking, the experience in all three roles will combine to make me a better tank than I could have ever become by simply staring at feet for 2 hours three nights a week.

Tyknight
03-17-2009, 12:41 PM
This is a great podcast! The part about confidence is amazing. Do you have any other podcasts regarding your thoughts on Death Knight tanks?

Kavtor
03-17-2009, 12:51 PM
WTB D***T K****T podcast.
I can hear it now. I could play it while leveling my alt, and I would feel so much better every time I get ganked by a DK.

Inaara
03-17-2009, 01:02 PM
Aye, 2 prot specs are the only way to go for me. I'll prolly end up going Frost/Unholy or Frost/Blood tanking for my dual specs.

Tyknight
03-17-2009, 03:48 PM
I'm currently a frost dk tank with a 11/50/6 (lvl 76) and am holding aggro surprising extremely well. Would love to hear your thoughts on a recent podcast on what DK tanks could improve on, etc.

veneretio
03-17-2009, 04:02 PM
This is a great podcast! The part about confidence is amazing. Do you have any other podcasts regarding your thoughts on Death Knight tanks?
I'm afraid that I'm a strictly Warrior tank with only a limited knowledge of DK tanks. (Just enough to tell them what to do in raids) Perhaps one day if I'm really ambitious though, I can find a DK to be a guest on the show.

Exiledknight
03-19-2009, 08:48 AM
The dual spec system is not for one or two classes to go heals...yes every server is short on healers to run heroics etc..but the two servers I have raided on it has always been tanks/dps that were short on for raids. It's also another way for bliz to be able to throw more "gimic" fights at us and not have everyone complaining about raid balance(i.e. raz). n general the tanks and healers are more dedicated than DPS players in general because they know they are needed and more wipes result due to them than the dps, so in regards to raids that will be more of an emergency fill in than any other reason.

But enough there, the real purpose of the dual spec is simply to give blizz more flexibilty with encounters because they can now have more than require only 1 tank and not have to tune them any different because every other tank can switch dps/heals. Myself I will be going dual prot and was wondering prior to the podcast how many others would as well, just like warriors us P@!#@!*^$ (as the podcast states lol) can benefit greatly from having two builds as i am sure DK's can as well, not sure about druids. The main reason though is to give players more flexibility to enjoy the game and I am sure that we will see many more fights in 3.2 and beyond that will take advantage of it with raid balance.

Thad
03-22-2009, 10:35 PM
But enough there, the real purpose of the dual spec is simply to give blizz more flexibilty with encounters because they can now have more than require only 1 tank and not have to tune them any different because every other tank can switch dps/heals. Myself I will be going dual prot and was wondering prior to the podcast how many others would as well, just like warriors us P@!#@!*^$ (as the podcast states lol) can benefit greatly from having two builds as i am sure DK's can as well, not sure about druids. The main reason though is to give players more flexibility to enjoy the game and I am sure that we will see many more fights in 3.2 and beyond that will take advantage of it with raid balance.

umm actually no. blizz has stated that when designing future encounters they are gonna pretend that dual specs don't exist. most likely so raiders don't feal obligated to have a tank/dps spec or a heal/tank spec. so don't look forward to fights that requre 8 tanks.

so if people just want to have a main spec and a pvp spec they can go right ahead.

Exiledknight
03-23-2009, 10:44 AM
umm actually no. blizz has stated that when designing future encounters they are gonna pretend that dual specs don't exist. most likely so raiders don't feal obligated to have a tank/dps spec or a heal/tank spec. so don't look forward to fights that requre 8 tanks.

so if people just want to have a main spec and a pvp spec they can go right ahead.

Yes they have stated that they are going to do that, but lets for a minute think of all the fights were you need only one tank...so then you are stuck with bad tank dps fromt he other tanks, dual specs will help minimize this, and give greater flexability. In naxx you can solo tank 7 of the fights, although maybe not necc. optimal you can handle the adds and bosses in GWF and Grob as logn as they are getting burned down, now I am talking 25 man here. So yes it does give them greater flexibilty in designing fights that may require one tank, and them being left to wonder how much will players complain that these are solo tank fights, and anyway how often does blizz stick to what they originally say?

Thad
03-23-2009, 11:18 AM
Yes they have stated that they are going to do that, but lets for a minute think of all the fights were you need only one tank...so then you are stuck with bad tank dps fromt he other tanks, dual specs will help minimize this, and give greater flexability. In naxx you can solo tank 7 of the fights, although maybe not necc. optimal you can handle the adds and bosses in GWF and Grob as logn as they are getting burned down, now I am talking 25 man here. So yes it does give them greater flexibilty in designing fights that may require one tank, and them being left to wonder how much will players complain that these are solo tank fights, and anyway how often does blizz stick to what they originally say?

if you absolutely want to maximize dps go ahead. but its not necessary i mean only the hardcore guilds are gonna force players to use dual specs for raids otherwise i don't think it matters.

Jalousie
04-08-2009, 11:24 AM
So I'm sloooow to catch on and have just started dipping into the podcast archives - gives me something to listen to when I'm running that doesn't mess with my pace. Really useful stuff and I especially liked this one as I was quite ambivalent about the idea of dual specs ("Get off my lawn, you young Fury kids!"). But please be making them either 40 or 70 minutes long to coincide with my runs :)

No, really. I'll let you off.

NiNone
06-02-2009, 06:40 PM
How about the Everything Man... Pally Tank / Healers?
Its like useing both sides of your Brain.

Barbarosa
07-21-2009, 02:21 PM
this guy must have TOTALLY zoned in on my brainwaves for this podcast lol. especially the last half of it. i also have been hounded for having my secondary spec a prot variant. but i am like him i am NOT satisfied with being a mediocre tank that is NOT why i spend several hours a week if not per day on tankspot reviewing raid vids. i want to be amazing.

I AM A MAIN TANK!!!

Eraser
08-02-2009, 08:13 PM
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Vene, this is an excellent podcast and while I didn't really gain anything from it - it did reaffirm what I currently thought.

As he posted, he's not directly saying you're bad if you're not prot/prot, but you're not a main tank. Now you can argue this is saying that he is calling you bad and alot of people have. But I dare a warrior to tell me how in tanking ulduar they haven't swap builds numerous times. I do - I have imp disc + sw + ls glyphs in one - dw in the other.

About being cocky, bossy, or arrogant, I think as the main tank you have to be - but at the same time you have to know your limits. Otherwise, and this has often happened to me when I was learning to tank, you'll have a cocky,bossy, or arrogant dps trying to do the tanks job. As a tank you really have to put your mark on the group/raid.

Also, another point is that if you are this main tank (which I believe I am - for my guild at least) then yeah you should be an elitist in the way that they should be on the look-out for any and all upgrades - both in gear and playstyle. When you're in a fight and 9-24 people are counting on you, if you're not at your best you're kind of letting them down. I made my tank on the back of being let down too many times (i.e. no one could stack sparks on malygos), I haven't looked back since, everyday I try and improve myself as a tank - do I consider myself an elitist? by all means no.

Lastly - if you're getting bent out of shape over this podcast, it's probably because your a tank, not a main tank, and there's nothing wrong with that. Tanks are as needed as healers, there is a small niche of us though that are main tanks - and we get this, this podcast speaks to us like the hot mexican pool cleaner talks to your wife.

Cheers for reading, I hope it's somewhat coherent.
Mega props for Vene.
Eraser

Ontarin
09-12-2009, 02:45 AM
If you aren't always MTing, and the guild needs you as fury, do you really think it is beneficial to NOT have a dps offspec? Does hurting your raid, in actuality, help it? No, it doesn't. If the encounter calls for a different tank spec, hearth and and respec. Because when i have 3 tanks in a raid, and i say "Which of you can dps? This is a single tank fight." And the response i get is "I have two tank specs," from all of them, they are hurting the raid. If you are good enough at what you do, and people aren't noticing it, having a second tank spec isn't going to make realize.

Ontarin
09-12-2009, 02:49 AM
Sorry, but this whole podcast, and quite a few responses sound like a big ego check. I MT every single fight for my guild, i did for my guild in BC, the only time i don't MT bosses is when another class is better suited for it (I play a warrior). You can say that "You just aren't the MT, and that's ok," but this isn't some sex addicts therapy. I have MTed for my guilds for the past 2 years, and having a second spec be dps, (which helps the raid) doesn't mean I'm not.

Ontarin
09-12-2009, 02:53 AM
if you absolutely want to maximize dps go ahead. but its not necessary i mean only the hardcore guilds are gonna force players to use dual specs for raids otherwise i don't think it matters.

So if you are in a hardcore raiding guild (the best guilds in the world, that down things before anyone) that wants you to have a secondary dps spec, because you can (gasp!) hearth and respec for a new tank spec, you aren't the main tank? Even though you are in a cutting edge guild, and very possibly one of the best players for your class? That makes absolutely zero sense.

Ontarin
09-12-2009, 02:56 AM
Those that run true dual specs for the sake of their raid are the real main tanks. They are the players willing to step outside the box and make the hard choices so the raid succeeds. So, my healing and dps gear sets are way better than my tank gear. However when I'm tanking, the experience in all three roles will combine to make me a better tank than I could have ever become by simply staring at feet for 2 hours three nights a week.

Everyone is acting as if having two tanking spec is SO beneficial to the raid, it isn't. Sometimes, maybe, but overall having your tanks as dps dual spec will get more use.

Cruelhitz
11-09-2009, 07:19 PM
I picked 1 prot. spec and 1 arms spec. in my duel talent selection. That way I can always do some pvp if i get bored of tanking.