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bigredbird
02-27-2009, 10:55 AM
My guild has cleared all of the current 25-man content and has downed OS with 1 drake. We started using DKP for 25-man content in Wrath and the results have been good. The one major problem we are running into; however, is that looting takes forever.

Our DKP Setup: Our Guild Master has a program on his computer that keeps track of the DKP everybody has earned. The DKP that everybody has earned is displayed in the Notes for their name in the Guild tab. When a piece of loot is available, an officer will link it as a raid warning and have players whisper them with their bid. It is auction style so the whispers keep rolling until somebody wins and it is announced in raid chat.

Example: To give you a sense of how long this looting process takes, last night we tried for the achievement of downing Maexxna 20-minutes after Anub'Rekhan. We didn't loot as we tried to move quickly. We ended up about 60 seconds short primarily due to some MC issues on Grand Widow, but in total the quarter took us ~25 minutes. Then it was time to loot. We had one officer go to each of the dead bosses and go through the bidding process described above. I didn't keep track of the exact time but it must have been 20-30 minutes before all the looting was done.

Help: I have to imagine there are some easy quick fixes that people more knowledgeable than I are aware of. I hear all the time how guilds are able to clear 25-man Naxx and then some in one night with little difficulty. I'd like to make this a goal for our guild but with the current amount of time it takes to loot I don't see how this is even remotely possible. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

Lore
02-27-2009, 10:59 AM
What exactly takes so long? Also, what kind of DKP system are you using?

Thrin
02-27-2009, 11:06 AM
Set time limits for the bidding. aka you have 30 seconds to send in your bid for an item or whatever time you think is good.

I've used a bidding system before and one thing i noticed is that you have people that will bid 1 more than the previous person and just prolong the time it takes. So we set up a minimum bid for each instance and a minimum increment increase amount.

I still think putting a time limit on the bidding time is the way to go, when people complain that they didn't have enough time to bid higher you should remind them that they should have bid what they thought it was worth and not get upset if somebody else thought it was worth more than them.

bigredbird
02-27-2009, 11:08 AM
As far as the DKP system goes, I unfortunately have no idea. I just became an officer the other day and I am clueless on how to actually run a dkp system. It is a major item though that I do need to spend time on.

I was hoping my description with the Guild Master being the only person with the program that keeps track of points would indicate what system, but perhaps not.

The back and forth whispers on a piece of loot take the most time. Somebody bids 10, somebody bids 11, then the first guy goes 15 and the second guy goes 16. Then a 3rd person who didn't notice the raid warning comes in and bids 10. He then has to be told the bidding is at 16. Then a 4th person jumps in who was looking up whether or not the item is an upgrade. And now there are 4 people working the auction. For more desirable items we could have a bunch more than 4 people bidding too.

We do try to keep moving and work on trash while bidding is going on, but people have trouble focusing with all the bidding. And if its a nice tank or healer item then forget about it.

bigredbird
02-27-2009, 11:12 AM
Thrin, is the 30 seconds the overall time or does it reset every time you receive a bid? Do you announce the current bid over vent and watch the whispers roll in?

In my ideal world there would be an addon everybody downloads that has a timer. When a boss is down, all 3 items or whatever are displayed in a little box and the bidding begins. 1 minute later loot is distributed.

Orenus
02-27-2009, 11:18 AM
What about instituting a single bid/silent auction type system? It would speed things up a bit, but it might be a hard sell if your raiders enjoy bidding wars.

megalomaniac
02-27-2009, 11:23 AM
dont use DKP

Our groups do a hybrid of loot council and NbG. If the gear is for your Main spec you are allowed to roll on the gear. The master looter checks to make sure that the winner will benefit from the upgrade and it is given out. Our guild is mature and we tend to pass on gear if we know that someone else will benefit from it more. If the main specs have it we do an open roll for Greed.

Not all guilds are so blessed. Maturity level and greed are real driving factors behind the need for DKP systems anymore. Raids are much shorter than they used to be. Downing bosses required effort and lots of time learning the encounters. When you had to manage 40 players crying for loot DKP was a great way to reward the folks who suffered day in and day out to progress through the content.

Badge gear, loot table tweaks and the constant difficulty nerfing by bliz have vastly reduced the need for DKP. You can pug clear naxx 25 so there is no reason a guild of regulars needs DKP.

Orenus
02-27-2009, 12:23 PM
dont use DKP

Our groups do a hybrid of loot council and NbG. If the gear is for your Main spec you are allowed to roll on the gear. The master looter checks to make sure that the winner will benefit from the upgrade and it is given out. Our guild is mature and we tend to pass on gear if we know that someone else will benefit from it more. If the main specs have it we do an open roll for Greed.



Yeah, this is similar to how we do it as well, though it's highly informal. The biggest loot drama we encounter tends to be along the lines of "You take it, I already got something this run" "No, no, it's a bigger upgrade for you." I don't think I could stomach a DKP system.

Lore
02-27-2009, 12:44 PM
Thrin, is the 30 seconds the overall time or does it reset every time you receive a bid? Do you announce the current bid over vent and watch the whispers roll in?

In my ideal world there would be an addon everybody downloads that has a timer. When a boss is down, all 3 items or whatever are displayed in a little box and the bidding begins. 1 minute later loot is distributed.

Ahh so you're using an auction-style system.

Those take forever. There really isn't much of a fix for it. It's the primary reason very few people use an auction-style system :P

bigredbird
02-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Ahh so you're using an auction-style system.

Those take forever. There really isn't much of a fix for it. It's the primary reason very few people use an auction-style system :P

Can you describe for me, or post a link, for the dkp system that most people use? I didn't realize the auction-style system was uncommon.

cudmaster
02-27-2009, 02:41 PM
We do wishlists modified by attendance for the last 30 days.

That way loot goes to the people who have been raiding lately, rather than someone that rolls in after being gone for 6 months with a big pile of dkp to steal everything and vanish again.

Basically when loot drops, we know exactly who gets it, no questions asked, (though there is a bit of "no, you take it, you need it more" that goes on as well of course) and if 2 people with equal attendace have ranked the loot equal on their list, then /roll figures it out pretty quick.

Lore
02-27-2009, 03:46 PM
The most popular form of bid-oriented DKP is the "silent bid" system. It works similar, except that there's just one bid from each person (sent in whispers to the person in charge of loot). You bid the amount you want to pay for the item, and if your number was highest, you win.

Sark
03-11-2009, 09:26 AM
We used a fixed bid, zero sum dkp system which simplifies things over a bidding system by quite a bit (Zero-sum DKP - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Zero-sum_DKP)). I don't know if that is considered "common", but we tweak it a bit from its pure form described in the link and it works well for us.

That said, DKP is still going to be somewhat slower - we try to be fast, but our DKP officer seems like he spends the majority of his time in Naxx doing loot and he often misses out on trash altogether since we have it cleared to the next boss by the time he finished the loot.

We shoot for Arachnophobia every run and then try to set a similar pace for the rest of the instance as well. I view it more as a challege for the DKP officer than for the rest of the raid though :)

Lyco
03-26-2009, 03:44 PM
We work with Highest DKP wins. I'll copy/paste the system here.
"In 25 mans we will be rewarding DKP.

The way it works is:

+ 10 DKP per hour in raid.
+ 10 DKP per boss killed.
+ 10 DKP for being on time ( 19:00 and inside the raid instance )
+ 10 DKP for raiding from start to finish (19:00 till 24:00)
+ 100 DKP for a progression kill

- 10 DKP for failure to execute tactics correctly.
- 10 DKP for when you have singed untill 24:00, but you leave early.



Bidding:
Items have set values ( determined by the Ilevel addon. Masterlooter will have this and report values to the raid )
The player with Highest DKP gets priority on a drop.

The way it works:
Loot drops! The item has a value of 130 DKP

Player A has 400 DKP
Player B has 300 DKP

Player A has more DKP, so he gets the right to buy the item first.
Player A Wishes to recieve the item, and now has 270 DKP.

Another Boss, now Player B has more DKP, and has the ability to get a Item.

Loot Council:
If 2 players have the same amount of DKP The lootcouncil will decide if the Item will be Veto'd ( The officers decide who gets the item ), or if it will be Rolled between the persons that want the item.

Be loyal to the guild and you shall recieve rewards!


Explanation of Loot Council:
The GM and Officers look at a persons efforts for the guild + gear, and decide whom has more right on the item, or could use it more.

Special DKP prices:

Tier 7.5:
- Chest,Head,Legs = 220 DKP
- Shoulders, Fist = 180 DKP

The Necklace Questitem from Sapphiron = 100 DKP"

Onyxstar
04-08-2009, 11:40 AM
Mod Time.. DKPMon & Bidder.. in game and loot takes ALOT less time.

Anaea
04-10-2009, 08:31 AM
We use a fairly pure form of Suicide Kings (http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings).

We maintain two lists: Tier gear, and everything else.

When the boss goes down, we link all the loot that dropped. Then one item is linked in raid chat. People have five seconds - if they're interested in the item off-spec, they /roll. If they want it main set (for suicide) then they type that in raid. If nothing happens for 5 seconds (we count down in vent) then the item is looted to the DE-er.

If someone needs more time to decide, they ask us to pass and we move on to the next piece of loot and come back to it.

Moves quickly, but we do have issues where people didn't realize it was an upgrade for them (particularly common with offsets) and we'll end up making GM tickets after the fact.

Cookie
04-11-2009, 07:58 PM
Ive never seen bidding last longer than 10 seconds per item unless it's something 5+ people are fighting over (like KT weapons or Sartharion's trinkets). Maybe you should get someone faster to do the looting. And have minimum bids, for example, +5 bids only and a maximum time frame.

Since there's bidding going on and not a "whisper loot person with what you think it's worth and the highest wins", why is the auction done in whispers? Just have everyone do the bidding in raid chat with a maximum bid time (for example 15 seconds). The person distributing loot will link the drop in /rw and start doing a countdown. If people complain that they didn't have time to decide, tough luck, they should've done research on what items they needed before-hand, and it's not hard to look at an item's stats and decide if it's an upgrade to what you're wearing. If they are interested and think that the 15sec window is too short, tough luck as well- they should've bidded what they thought it was really worth instead of upping bids by 1 and wasting everyone's time.

People don't need to stop to do the loot either. Right after the boss is down and the dead people are resed, start pulling. Whoever is doing the auction (preferably a dps so they can stay behind) just read out the item name and each bid on vent so that people don't miss it while theyre fighting trash. 30 minutes to do loot is ridiculous.

For example:
Minimum starting bid: 50dkp
Minimum increments: 10dkp
/rw Illustration of the Dragon Soul
15
14
13
12
11
10 - Only people who've already made a bid at this point are allowed to continue bidding. Everyone who's interested should've said so by now.
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1 - Sold to the highest bidder. No more bidding allowed after this point.

holland11
04-14-2009, 12:49 AM
/roll
Boedker rolls a 13.
fml

Fayre
04-14-2009, 03:34 AM
You need an impatient ML. What we do, is move on through trash as loot happens. It cuts down the time people spend deliberating, because they're keen to move on too.

Mortisia
05-04-2009, 03:03 AM
We use a fixed price bidding system.
People have around 10 seconds to bid, otherwise they miss out.

After a couple of raids people get the hang of it and realise "You snooze, you loose" :D

Wolftank
05-04-2009, 03:57 AM
We are using EPGP, officers got access to it, and can all assign values - values are written/saved in Officer note, that all can read.

EP = Effort Points, these you earn by killing stuff and different bonuses (We got End of Raid, Wipe EP on progress encounters). EP have a decay of 15% that are assigned when our raid week ends - thus you cant hoard it while not raiding.

GP = ? points (cant remember name) but when you get an item your GP increases with the item value.

Your Priority is found by Dividing your EP value with your GP value.
The one with highest Prio wins the item.

Now we still go by Need for main spec and greed for offspec, and its the one with a need and higest prion that wins. Offset are free.

This still took a lot of time for officers to check priority etc. but then we got the addon called "EPGPLootmaster" what this does is making a choice bar appear for each loot where people can select "need, greed or pass".
Lootmaster then get window with all the choices, sorted by EPGP priority.
LM window can be monitored by all players in the raid, and it will show what people are currently wearing, their priority and also a randow 1-100 roll for each player that can be used to assign greed items.
LM just right click a person and assign the loot to that one.

Added bonus is that it can be set to assign green stuff to 1 person for DE.

As long as people know what are upgrades for them, and dont have to ask for help all the time determinig if its a need or not, this have really speeded loot distribution up for my guild.

I have found this to be easiest to administrate, and have used it for non-EP runs like 10-mans, where I just use the roll to find a "winner".

I have used systems where just one could change the values, took a lot of time when that person was not in the raid and was generally a pain compared.
Also tried a system where DKP was administrated on the guild forum site, worked to begin with, but was a pain to keep uptodate.

So my suggestion is to start using EPGP, only thing is that everyone in the raid HAVE to have "EPGPLootmaster" installed - there is a function to check for this and then whispert the offenders.

And no, I dont agree with those saying not to use any EP/DKP system as that will be a boon to the lazy, and not reward those that really put in an effort for guild to progress.

Good luck
Wolf :Q

kemikalkadet
05-04-2009, 04:01 AM
We use ep/gp in our guild. when an item drops, everyone that wants it does a /roll 1 so the ML can see who wants it, then gives it to the person with highest PR that rolled. Anything that goes to off-spec is done with an old fashioned /roll and item going to highest roller. Makes it a lot easier for the raid to carry on with trash while ML stays back and sorts the loot.