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Glaive
02-27-2009, 04:07 AM
Hi all again,

Been running some heroics and while in some of them its all "cake" so to speak, in others which should have been much easier Im running into threat generation issues.

Needles to say, I use TClap like mad, Demo Shot, Devastate, Revenge, Challenging shout, taunt, Vigilance... the works just to stay ahead on the threat meter.

The problem is happening above all with groups of mobs, trying to keep them glued to me and not having one mob decluster and charge the dpsers.

I get this problem most of all while pugging, and some very few times with guildmates, but the last is understandable as they are mostly tier 7.5 geared and they very rarely forget to look at Omen while dpsing.

The instance where its worse so far is in Utgarde Keep Heroic.

The average to low difficulty to keep them clustered would be in HoL or HoS Heroic.

The easiest ( though not by much more than the two above ) is Violet Hold Heroic.

Below is the profile.

Been following the gear guides posted here, and they truly have helped getting into the heroics.

Glaive's Armory profile

I hope you guys can point me out what I seem to be missing... because its driving me nuts to go running around chasing one or more mobs that have declustered.

Kaumu
02-27-2009, 04:30 AM
Devastate isnt really part of the wotlk king tank cycle anymore besides reducing armour for your party.

Rotations should unclude: Revenge, Shield slam, shockwave, concussion blow, tc, heroic throw

Contradicting myself (If you are struggling with multiple mobs): you could always get the glyph of sunder, which applies sunder armour to two mobs at once. You will have to throw devastates into the mix here. This will build up threat on both mobs at once. Do not focus on just doing devastates, just toss it in the 5-10second phase of the fight after ure aoe abilities.

I normally Heroic throw second target, charge in,TC, SS main target, maneouvre and Shockwave all, you can then begin your tabe cycle.

Often you will see PUG's deliberately trying to all go for different targets to pull aggro (who knows why). If one does break off from grp, use your new wonderful 30 yard taunt.

I normally save challenging shout if its 2 or more breaking away and more of a Panic Button.

Remember to vigilance your highest dps pref melee, I always put it on a fury warrior if one is there. (thats a instant taunt refresh if they pull)

Hope this helps

orcstar
02-27-2009, 04:46 AM
Mark 1 target with a skull to go down first, if one of the none marked goes after a dps, let it run and kill him and politely ask: "Why weren't you dpsing skull first? You wouldn't have had repair costs if you had." This gives you a bit more time to establish solid aoe threat on the rest of the group of mobs.

zpele
02-27-2009, 10:02 AM
Well a quick fix would be to fix your spec. Respec to Deep Wounds and that will increase both your threat generation and your overall damage.

Joel_D
02-27-2009, 11:11 AM
well since all your gear is pretty much blues, any well geared ranged dps could get a crit and pull unintentionally. As you gear gets better its gonna be harder and harder to keep a 540 defense. As far as respecing is concerned, do what you feel most comfrontable with. I was deep wounds speced for a while and was doing well with it, with deep wounds dot doing around 9% of my dps. Now i was using a titansteel bonecrusher as my tank weapon because of its higher dps value. Once i got some naxx 25/better gear i had to go back to red sword of courage and there was the deep wounds nerf around the same time. My DoT damage went down to 4%. Since the guild was talking of starting working on eye of eternity and deep wounds did take a bit of a nerf, i spec out of it and have just 5 points in parry and took improved reflect etc.

My tanks name is Balthor and hes on Thorium Brotherhood if you wanna take a look.

Zed
02-27-2009, 12:28 PM
Well a quick fix would be to fix your spec. Respec to Deep Wounds and that will increase both your threat generation and your overall damage.

Yes this will definately help a ton. drop improved shield reflect and puncture.. these are pretty much useless. you can check my build Spankandtank - Executus. Though its common to take out the 3 points in focused rage and put 2 in cruelty and the last in deep wounds 3/3. i think ill try it out myself too.

since when has devastate not been used in tanking?? its all a priority system now since tanking has been reactive due to procs. devastate is awesome to use when ss and revenge are not up. not only does it increase group dps, but its threat value increased based on the number of sunders applied

Bigsmooth
02-27-2009, 12:56 PM
Yes this will definately help a ton. drop improved shield reflect and puncture.. these are pretty much useless. you can check my build Spankandtank - Executus. Though its common to take out the 3 points in focused rage and put 2 in cruelty and the last in deep wounds 3/3. i think ill try it out myself too.

since when has devastate not been used in tanking?? its all a priority system now since tanking has been reactive due to procs. devastate is awesome to use when ss and revenge are not up. not only does it increase group dps, but its threat value increased based on the number of sunders applied

That is the same spec I use and I love it. I am currently gemmed/geared for threat and with this build I typically do 6.5-8k tps without a bloodlust. I wish I could get my DPS a little higher as I am usually around 1800, but it is good enough I suppose.

Like you, I also use devastate whenever something else is on cooldown. I am reminded of this chart which is great for showing people the ideal prot warrior rotation

Muffin Man
02-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Demo shout is awful for aoe aggro.

Last time I saw a table it does 68 divided by the number of targets it hits. For comparison, you generate 70 global threat when you *gain* 14 rage.

If you need demo shout for survability go ahead and use it. If you need to grab initial threat from say a sheep pull use blood rage so at least you're getting, not losing rage.

When you have initial aggro, damage shield procs are going to do a lot of aoe aggro. You're gear isn't that high since at this piont in the game I think you can count on running into a T7+ pug pretty often. So as others have said it's going to be tough for you to hold aggro against those people even with Vig on them.

One thing that jumps out at me is that you don't use SS in AoE threat situations and you don't tab targets. You *have* to tab target or you will lose aggro even to blue geared dps. SS is our highest threat move, spread the love around, don't just use it for single target situations. Cleave is pretty nice too, but even then you'll have to tab target if there are more than 2 mobs.

Glaive
03-02-2009, 01:53 AM
Ive tried the Deep wounds spec and found I was having survivability issues, that and coupled with the nerf it got made me shift to this somewhat odd spec.

I feel pretty comfortable with it, much more so than with other more "orthodox" specs so to speak.

My main mistake on these few fights ( have to love WWS logs ) was the fact that I was forgetting sometimes to tab across mobs.

I keep up SS and TC all the time, but I was also not using Conc as much as needed, perhaps because I allways saw it had a very long CD and didnt think it would be too useful, also since Conc can stun the target I allways thought it would inside a instance be less useful than other abilities as its only single traget and makes the mob stopping attacking you, hence loose Threat on it.

On the Shockwave subject, I have a similar doubt.

Shockwave even though its a AoE abilitie, also stuns the targets, so wont the fact that they are not hitting you make it a lesser Threat generator ability? Its good for CCing the mobs, but does it really generate enough threat to be used before other abilities such as TC?.

Thanks to the improvement on gear Ive had lately and thanks to the posts here and in particular directing me to the tank rotation image graph Ive managed to sucessfully tank most instances without loosing aggro on trash packs.

Sometimes one might run but Heroic Throw and Taunt almost allways take care of it, and if all hell breaks loose, with that one mob there is allways intervene as a last resort.

As someone pointed out its becoming somewhat anoying to keep up the def cap.

I have the Keystone Great-Ring in my pack, and seeing its got better stamina than my blue one it would be a improvement, but equiping it puts me at an anoying 538 Def which is 2 pts below cap.

I thought about putting a +16 def gem on my legs instead of the orange one I have with 8 def and 8 parry, but Im not sure if by doing so and shifting back to the HC epic Keystone Great-Ring I would loose def and again be below the 540 cap.

On other thing that worries me and would appreciate feedback from you all is this:

Im beginning to off-tank Naxx 10 with my guild, so Im hoping the drops there will improve my tanking gearwise.

Right now I am able to hold aggro on bosses if anything goes wrong and trash pulls with the usual 10 man buffs and food buff, and my hps rarely are lower than 30k by more than a few hundred points.

So does this mean I can think on seriously MTing Naxx 10? or should I gear up more as OT before I ask for a shot at tanking as MT in some bosses in Naxx ?.

Kaumu
03-02-2009, 03:14 AM
Deepwounds is a great addition to TPS 15/5/51 build, i have used in success all the way to downing 25 malygos.

Agreed on demo shout, this is only to be used for Mitigating purposes and not as a threat build.

If you have imp charge, when you charge in you still need to position mobs for Shockwave. You will have more than enough rage, as 4 mobs will hit you once or twice before they stun. So rage is not the issue here.

NB: in the rotations i forgot to mention
Use Heroic strike on every swing, not always possible but keep this up in between your attacks. If you are dropping below 40 rage then stop spamming HC. It adds as a great threat modifier instead of the normal white attack

Dont forget mocking blow as well.

Your armory is down so i cant view gear at the moment