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Woopiwoopi
02-22-2009, 07:41 PM
Ok so our guild had its first crack at Sarth 3d last night. We didn't do too badly apart from some silly mistakes with void zones etc.

Our raid group composition was as follows: 4 Tanks (Dk (Sarth), paladin (adds), warrior (drake), Druid (adds)), 6 healers (3 priests, 2 paladins, 1 shaman) 2 heals on MT, 1 heal on each tank and 1-2 raid heals), 15 dps

Our attempts would generally end up like this:
Sartharion MD'd and positioned with our DK Tank
Our Dps would wait for Tenebron to drop - once he drops we start dpsing, Heroism is hit after the first lava wall. Tenebron drops with 5 seconds till shadron is targetable.
Our AoE starts thinning out the whelps and blazes whilst our rogue is FoK the enraged adds. Single target dpsers beat away on shadron whilst our drake tank drags him across to pick up vesperon. By the time vesperon drops and spawns his acolyte, shadron is on approximately 50% hp. We take the portal and kill only vesperons acolyte to rid of the t.t debuff. We come out and our add tanks either die or our dps isnít high enough to bring shadron down b4 we run out of cd's.

So a couple of questions
1. Should we save Heroism for Shadron?
2. Should we be taking portals, and if we do, do we kill only the vesperon acolyte.
3. Once Shadron dies and only vesperon is up, itís a cakewalk right?

Thanks

Tharr
02-22-2009, 07:56 PM
I'm just going to answer according to how we do it.

1. No, get tenebron down asap to get rid of the shadowdebuff and no more whelp spawns.

2. Yes, when Shadron opens his portal have 5 melee and a healer or so go into the portal and get Shadrons add to about 10%, when Vesperon lands you swiftly kill Shadrons add and get Vesperons add down to 10%, then just repeat this to make sure there is never 2 adds up at the same time. If you get 2 adds at the same time, yes it can happen, you will have to let the Sarth tank know so he can use a cooldown to survive the breath. You will get big breath's over a longer time but that's when a Druid with a huge healthpool is good to have.

In the meantime it's the dps' outside responsibility to kill Shadron while making sure not to get overwhelmed by the fire elementals.

Once Shadron is dead the dps can come outside and quickly burn down Vesperon. Then take the portal and kill his add.

3. Yes.

Youdon
02-22-2009, 07:58 PM
Heroism on shadron. Kill BOTH tenebron and shadron then take portal to kill BOTH acolyte. Come back up with just vesperon kill him. take portal again.

Woopiwoopi
02-22-2009, 08:05 PM
I'm just going to answer according to how we do it.

1. No, get tenebron down asap to get rid of the shadowdebuff and no more whelp spawns.

2. Yes, when Shadron opens his portal have 5 melee and a healer or so go into the portal and get Shadrons add to about 10%, when Vesperon lands you swiftly kill Shadrons add and get Vesperons add down to 10%, then just repeat this to make sure there is never 2 adds up at the same time. If you get 2 adds at the same time, yes it can happen, you will have to let the Sarth tank know so he can use a cooldown to survive the breath. You will get big breath's over a longer time but that's when a Druid with a huge healthpool is good to have.

In the meantime it's the dps' outside responsibility to kill Shadron while making sure not to get overwhelmed by the fire elementals.

Once Shadron is dead the dps can come outside and quickly burn down Vesperon. Then take the portal and kill his add.

3. Yes.


Ok so, we have 1 healer and 5 melee go in there, im guessing we never kill all the acolytes at once? so we dont get automatically chucked out of the portal?

Approx how much health does an acolyte have?

is it possible to zerg the crap out of shadron and kill him pretty much as soon as vesperons add is up?

Tharr
02-22-2009, 08:15 PM
Ok so, we have 1 healer and 5 melee go in there, im guessing we never kill all the acolytes at once? so we dont get automatically chucked out of the portal?

No, always keep 1 alive at low hp and then wait for the next one.


Approx how much health does an acolyte have?

Not sure, I've never been in there since I'm busy tanking drakes or fire elementals.


is it possible to zerg the crap out of shadron and kill him pretty much as soon as vesperons add is up?

Maybe, just try and you'll findout. You'll just have to find what works best for your guild. What I posted is how we do it and it works for us.

Woopiwoopi
02-22-2009, 08:33 PM
Excellent thanks

So during the time, ideally, there will only be 1 acolyte up at a time. Are the proper cooldown rotations still required?

sevve
02-23-2009, 02:36 AM
From what I understand, most guilds kill Shadron before taking any portals.

With the kind of dps you seem to have, that shouldn't be a problem.
I would advise you to bring 7 healers though, unless the 6 you have are excellent.

Since you actually have "dead time" between Tenebron and Shadron, saving heroism might be worth it.
We normally have Tenebron at about 10% when Shadron lands. We bloodlust after second wave, so we get part of bloodlust on Shadron. Only the strong aoe classes clear whelps, while most continue on Shadron.



So during the time, ideally, there will only be 1 acolyte up at a time. Are the proper cooldown rotations still required?
I have never killed acolytes before Shadron is dead, but with a DK tank I don't think it's needed. Still useful though.
A good tip is to put FR head enchant, cloak enchant and resistance flask on your MT. Also -spell damage taken meta.
With the new resistance mechanics that brings the min resisted up from 10% to 20%(assuming aura obviously).
If for some strange reason your DK is LW too, put 60 on his bracers.

Woopiwoopi
02-23-2009, 02:27 PM
Okay, so we tried it again last night. This time with 7 healers.

We noticed the loss of that 1 dps for the gain of 1 healer. This time we would get tenebron down when shadron landed or have him at about 5% or so.

As soon as teneberon died, 5 melee and 1 healer went into the portal. We'd get shadrons acolyte to 10%, than nuke him once vesperons acolyte spawned. And rinsed and repeated with the other acolyte.

But at this time, our add tank would die and whelps would just swarm all over the place wiping the raid.

I guess I got a couple of questions.

1. Is it best to just nuke shadron as much as you can before Twilight Torment comes up? If so, whats a good % guide to get him to?


2. What are the healing assignments usually given out? We usually have a paladin and holy priest on the Sarth tank, holy priest on the drake tank, paladin on add tank, a druid hotting up both drake and add tank till he goes to solo heal the 4th tank on vesperon. 2 shamans raid healing.

3. Once vesperons acolyte spawns, the raid just slowly dps's shadron whilst watching health and killing adds when needed?

Thanks in advance

Finkleroy
02-23-2009, 02:50 PM
We tasked 1-2 people to keeping the blaze numbers low. With Shadron and Vesperon on the ground, the blazes will put an insane amount of damage on the add tank. We found that kitties and shadow priests were especially good at keeping the adds dead because their aoe is unaffected if the add tank has to move. They can also pause if a bunch of new mobs are added (unlike seed).

You may also want to check that the drake tank is minmizing movement. If s/he has to make a big move to pick up a new drake or dodge a wall, you'll lose a fair amount of dps.

Tharr
02-23-2009, 07:29 PM
This is by no means an end all be all strategy. You are encouraged to change stuff as you see fit to make it work for your guild or just disregard it alltogether.

I'm sure you can do the fight in many different ways, this is just how we learnt it (while still beeing undergeared and therefore did not have the dps required to simply burn all the dragons) and still do it.

We have a druid in frost resistance gear for sartharion (he can survive breaths aslong as no more then 1 accolyte is alive, need cooldowns for 2), 1 tank for all the drakes and 2 for whelps/fire elementals.

6 healers, 2 (paladin and holy priest) on the sarth tank, 1 on the drake tank, 1 on raid/whelp tanks and 1 in the portals.

Basically, Sarth tank picks Sarth up and positions, drake tank moves to where Tenebron is gona land. When Tenebron lands dps goes all out, bloodlust just after the wave. Tenebron should be dead or close to dead when Shadron lands.

Meanwhile we have 1 tank picking up fire elementals. Once the whelps spawn we have a deathknight in tank gear help tanking whelps (he can dps Tenebron up till now). You should only get one wave of whelps.

Once Shadron starts to decend the Tenebron tank moves over to pick him up while dps finishes Tenebron. If Tenebron is still alive when Shadron is beeing tanked (yes we use the same tank) using a cooldown to survive is good since you can take alot of dmage if both Shadron and Tenebron decides to shadowbreath at the same time while the shadow debuff is still up.

Once Tenebron is dead everyone aoe's the whelps and fire elementals, meantime the tank moves Shadron to the other side of the platform to be ready for Vesperon. Once Shadron opens a portal about 5 melee and a healer enters to bring that add down to about 10%, it's usually tanked by a dps warrior or deathknight. These people will now stay in the portal till Shadron is dead continously rotating what add is alive and never letting more then one be alive. Simply take the add you have to 10%, when the next one spawn you quickly kills the first one and then takes the second one to 10%, then just wait for the next one again and just keep rotating that. It is possible for one add to spawn right as you have killed it so you will have 2 alive for some time, it is important you tell the team that handles Sartharion (tank + 2 healers) this so they can use appropriate cooldowns so the tank survives.

We use 2 tanks to pickup the fire elementals because those were what usually killed our people outside the portal and with 2 tanks they can mostly kill the fire elementals by themselves. If they stackup you can call for a quick burst of aoe. And it's now up to the dps outside to kill Shadron.

Once Shadron is dead the dps in the portal finishes off the adds and everyone then kills Vesperon, then enters the portal a last time and kills that add then just finish off Sartharion.

I hope this made sence and hopefully helps someone. Keep having fun and good luck killing it.

sevve
02-24-2009, 08:50 AM
I would just like to add that a lot of people seem to think you need exceptionally high dps to kill Shadron before taking portals.
We have usually have Shadron at around 60-70% ish when Vesperon lands, but keeping the MT alive has never been a problem(I should probably mention we are running with a lot of paladins). Twilight torment hurts the raid a lot, but I personally can't see that reducing the uptime slightly while dragging out the fight is beneficial.

Woopiwoopi
03-01-2009, 04:17 PM
So we had another crack at him last night…

Our best attempt, we got shadron down to 6%...

We had 6 healers and 4 tanks. Rest were dps

Paladin and disc priest on the MT
Priest Druid on Drake Tank
Priest Druid on Add Tank

A lot of our wipes came from ele's beating on our healers, what I was hoping to find out is.

1. We currently have a prot paladin on whelps and blazes, and a feral druid running around picking up lose adds in the raid. Is there normally problems with add tanks picking up eles that are either in the melee pack or beating healers up?

2. We usually get tenebron down to about 10% when shadron lands with hero in the last 20%, should we be getting him down quicker? If we use hero after the first wave, we usually get tenebron down before shad even lands, but I think we definitely need the hero for shad.

3. When tenebron is dead, every dps gets on shad except our warlock who is the only one aoeing, is this good or bad? We get shadron down to at least 50% or less before vesperon lands.

Thanks


btw - here is the wws for the night
http://wowwebstats.com/pgc1zt5ztb4ss (http://wowwebstats.com/pgc1zt5ztb4ss)

Tharr
03-01-2009, 07:57 PM
If you got Shadron to 6% then you almost got it.

If wipes happen due to fire elementals killing healers then the tanks assigned to pick them up just have to do it better. There is no if's or but's, it has to happen.

1.
Warriors are probably the best tanks to pickup whelps and elementals due to the frontloaded threat of thunderclap and the mobility together with the mitigation of shield block and the shockwave stun. Paladins are really good to with 2 ranged taunts, concecrate and throwing shield around a bit.

Druids are probably the worst tank to pickup the whelps/elementals (they can do it though). If you have a warrior tanking drakes you might want to switch them and put the druid on the drakes.

2.
Your dps is fine. Use bloodlust how you see fit and what works for you.

3.
Up to you, if it works then it's fine. If not then you can have everyone aoe so the tanks get free to spot and pickup new adds more easily. After Tenebron is dead it's more about controlling the fight and not killing yourselves dpsing then actually burning down the drakes.

Woopiwoopi
03-02-2009, 05:26 AM
woo, we got him down just then.

We killed tenebron with time to spare on Shadron, and killed shadron with heroism b4 vesperon came down =D

Tharr
03-03-2009, 08:46 AM
Congratulations!

And welcome to the bored club with nothing new to kill.

Gnurken
03-04-2009, 12:38 AM
I was wondering... last week we've seen a surge in guilds on our little scrub RP server that made 3-Drake 25man. Also last night we just swarmed it, leaving us a very short raid and people went off to do 8man Naxx instead. Granted it was like our 7th kill but never felt that easy. We didn't stack raid any special for extreme dps or anything.

Did they stealth nerf this encounter?