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View Full Version : So Warriors can not OT Patchwerk?



kobi
02-19-2009, 02:19 AM
we have been struggling with patchwerk for some time. it is very rare that we can kill him with any Melee still standing, usually 1-2 min into the fight the OT(s) are dead and anyone else in range of a hateful, yet we can finish the encounter healing the 1 tank. we have done this with up to 8 healers and still loose the warrior OT. my heal team is telling me the only way they can heal this fight is with 2 DK OT's.

most all of our team is in full Naxx+ gear Warriors are just shy of 40k HP (buffed)


so my question, do we really have to have 2 OT's everytime for this fight?
can my Warrior team not OT for this fight?
and do we really have to have 7+ healers?

Utan
02-19-2009, 02:30 AM
sounds like your healers need a rotation check and/or your warriors need a mitigation/avoidance check. i don't see any reason for them to drop like that. and why do ppl keep running for the DK's? no offense to the DK tanks out there, but my favorite OT is always gonna be a big old Bear.

Peca
02-19-2009, 02:35 AM
There is no problem in tanks only in your healers.

Shortypop
02-19-2009, 02:42 AM
While DK OT's will take less damage OT'ing Patch than warriors, warriors can definitely do it. I OT, together with a druid/DK OT, and have never had 40k buffed hp. I think in my Patch gear (more heavy on dodge) I sit at about 27k unbuffed hp, and have only died once when I pulled off the MT with a crit heroic throw on the pull and took hatefuls and normal hits :)

I would think 2 warriors would be a good team, my biggest problem is rage starvation, as our healers are too good and generally get the DK (helped by cds) or druid (helped by larg hp pool) back up above my health too fast so I take very few hatefuls in comparison, with two warriors it should be alternately nicely between the two of them.

Slobash
02-19-2009, 10:52 AM
Sounds like your healers are dropping the ball big time. Have never had any trouble offtanking as a warrior

Conreeaght
02-19-2009, 10:59 AM
Healer issue IMO. I don't know if it's gear related, or how they heal (for example I mentioned that flash of light is actually bad for healing this encounter, and that overhealing is good.) I notice some healers are even being stingy which can hinder this encounter - not banging a mana potion, using a better food buff, elixiring/flasking etcetera.

Using gear obtained prior to doing construct and DK wing, we did it with 6 healers, and continue to do so using many different healer class combinations but we can never seem to get more then 6 healers to a raid. No Melee DPS dies - except those few times when they get a little premature on threat. (and our raids are usually very melee heavy. K'T is a pain!) ...and we have 2 warriors eating hateful strikes regularly.

Spitefulness
02-19-2009, 05:23 PM
Your healers seem to be slacking, or in need of a rotation check then.
My guild has had no problems with patch in a 5 healer setup.
Warrior MT, paladin/warrior OT should do fine.

f14flier7
02-19-2009, 05:34 PM
My guild JUST killed Patchwerk for the first time. Here is the log to get an idea of the way we set up our healing:

Patchwerk Kill: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/1850677#damageout)
Entire Raid: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/438497)

I was OT'ing on my Warrior (Oceanus) and DPSing with my Shaman Robbiee (I 2 box). I wasn't really casting too much though, had to keep popping trinkets, ect. I was just there for my totems :lol:

After wiping for 2 weeks on Patchwerk and wiping once last night we switched things up. Hope this helps. Warriors can tank everything/anything :D Your healers just need to get things sorted out.

Molohk
02-19-2009, 05:52 PM
I have to agree it sounds like a healing issue, unless your gears are wearing polar gear to raise their stam and sacrificing avoidance :P

Warrior OTs get more spikes of damage than other tanks, healers need to be aware of this, and they really shouldn't be waiting for the OT to take damage before they heal. You basically spam heals like crazy on MT and OT1, and if OT1 is taking most of the hatefuls you can be more selective about healing OT2.

There is no reason why a warrior with 40k health couldnt OT anything. I've seen warriors with much less health do it.

PS: You do need 2 OTs. The reason for the second OT is the fact that if OT1 does not get topped off after a hateful and before the next, your melee will eat the next hateful. If you really want to do 1 OT, you may be able to get melee to clip the slime to stay bellow OT1, but that's risky.

dyls
02-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Chalk up another vote for the healers being the problem. I am another warrior that has successfully OT'd Patch 25 and I had way less than 40k at the time, probably closer to 36 - and this was in a pug no less (I've been in pugs that have totally failed since, of course, but the first time proves it can be done :))

Argamasilla
02-19-2009, 06:22 PM
I started out MT on my first naxx 25 pug, warrior with 32k buffed, when the OT pally shot past on threat in the first 20 seconds, putting me in second. OT-2 took most of the hatefulls with 38k buffed, and since when I did take a HS, I was always much lower then OT-2, I never took 2 in a row. Incidentally, I think it only took 2 heals to bring me back to full... an advantage of having low health I guess :)

So, yeah... as long as your lowest OT has enough health to take 1 strike, you don't have to have monster stam to OT. But, don't even think about casting heals less then 5k on him, or you may send him just higher then OT-1 and then he's toast.

Turmoil
02-21-2009, 02:33 PM
It may have been implied, but are your warrior OTs the first ones to go down? If your dps are getting smashed and making your healers panic, calmly inform them that in naxx25 the hatefuls are THREAT BASED. We had an idiot wreck our undying achievement the other night due to overaggroing when I was on a dry rage patch at the pull.

Also make sure your warriors aren't intervening the MT at the pull. I did that once and got flattened - ~10k hit, ~20k hateful, gg.

If the tanks really aren't functionally at fault, it is a healer issue. Make sure they aren't switching or sharing targets. Apart from that, give them a damn good pep talk, take a WWS and watch who and what and when they are healing. And call them up if they are clearly talking cowpats.

Ulantor
02-22-2009, 11:22 AM
From reading the OP it sounds like they are only using one OT. That would be why the warrior is dying. I'm sure it can be done, but any guild still newer to patchwerk, would not be able to keep up one OT through patchwerk.

Make sure you use 2 OT's and you should be fine.

macfeagle
02-22-2009, 07:12 PM
I can't imagine why healers would get it into their heads that only DK's can OT Patchwerk.

Nucleus
02-22-2009, 07:43 PM
I agree it is a problem with your healers. Get them to read up on the mechanics of the fight. Its basically the speed of topping up your tanks in relation to Hateful Strikes.

My guild runs with different classes of tanks every week. It doesnt matter what the configuration of your tanks, be it DK + Warr or Warr + Pally......its really up to the healers and of course the DPSers.

My personal favourite is having 2 Warr tanks and with Vigilance on each other. Trust me. The TPS really flies :P

squats
02-22-2009, 07:49 PM
i offtank all the time on patch.. your healers need some work it sounds like

Jonamar
02-25-2009, 01:45 PM
Agree with all of the above. It's your healers. Have them come here and read for themsleves. There are plenty of great threads here about doing 25 patch and healer set-ups etc. I OT patch as a Prot War with no issues on a 6 Healer set up. I sit at 28k Hp, 24.5k AC 24% dodge un-buffed. MT and 2nd OT are Pallys.

jlafleur
02-25-2009, 01:58 PM
We clear Patchwerk every week with 2 or 3 warrior tanks --- usually 3. Every once in a while a slot is filled with a pally (MTing with warriors OTing) or a few times with a druid (OTing). One thing to keep in mind is that the healing for the OTs will not be even. For example, I might have 41k, the other OT 38-39K and the MT 35K. I end up taking 60-66% of the hateful strikes. Even 1 or 2k of health is enough of a variance to cause me to normally be higher so I eat two out of three hatefuls. You might consider an approach where you mix group healing (chain heal) in addition to direct healing and HOTs (if you have the time). Obviously, it is not a good idea for melee to jump in the slime and end up receiving healing the tanks needed. In any event, you definitely have a healing problem.

Tonylicious
02-25-2009, 02:14 PM
Make sure you have a priest or shaman with Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude (was it renamed) on each of the OTs and that they use Indest pots immediately before the pull and 2 minutes in as well. Our first time in there in December was a little rocky - Pala MT, Pala/War OTs, but it was doable with poor gear.

Its almost certainly a healing issue, strict assignements should be made. Generally if you're running 7 healers, which is probably normal for someone learning the place 2 on the MT, 3 on the primary OT, and 2 on the secondary OT should give you enough coverage. Paladin with beacons are OP for this so make sure they're being used wisely.

If you have a WWS it may help us help you.

Glaive
02-26-2009, 10:15 AM
Clearly a healer issue.

We take on patchwerk with 3 tanks, one Paladin, one Warrior, one Druid.

None of our tanks go down during the fight unless something goes seriously wrong.

Have the healers check their rotations, food buffs, potions, and check raid buffs for proper mana regeneration buffs.

getefix
02-26-2009, 01:03 PM
Put your weak healers on the MT. You will not need more than 2 healers on the MT, everyone else on the OT.

I find it easy enough to just use 1 Druid/DK OT for the hatefuls. Warriors can do it, but if you have the option to use someone else I suggest it.

Pay close attention to Recount's healing meters. Ensure that the OT's healers are only healing the OT. Also check Recount's Acitivity meter to make sure that they aren't waiting until he gets hit before casting.

Pellet
03-02-2009, 03:03 PM
We had a simular issue to yours, we were running patch 25 for the 1st time and our tanks were getting hammered down really badly, and the raid members were screaming out for a DK.

No offense to DK's but for this fight, and hateful soaking, you CANNOT beat a druid.
Its been said a million times, but this fight is more a healer fight than a tank fight, in all truth the tanks just have to spam every single attack move they have on the target.

Warriors are more than capable of this job. However some with heavy block builds are likely to get smashed because their avoidance just insn't up to the task.

We ran with A Pally MT and 2 warr OT's (pally threat on UD bosses is practically un passable)

If your tanks have each successfully MT'ed KT on normal they should have no problem hateful soaking. Avoidance, armour and stamina are all that matter for this fight, the rest is healer dependant. To be honest, if your tanks avoidance adds up to 60% or more, they are suitable for this job.

ndb1983
03-05-2009, 10:24 AM
Last week our other OT showed up late to the raid and we did Patch with me as the only OT. I had 2 druids, a pally and a shammy healing me and they kept me up good enough that no one died. I think melee may have taken a dip in the canal once or twice to keep their health down.

Calintara
03-05-2009, 10:39 AM
I agree with the potential healer issue. I wonder if the RL is defining specific Roles.

Our normal makeup on this is a War MT, bear OT, War OT. I sometimes have a DK but not all the time.

I have usually 5-6 healers for naxx. The normal array of heals is

2 resto shamans
1 Pally
1 Disc
1 holy
1 resto druid

I usually set it up like this:

MT - Holy Priest/resto Sham1
Bear OT - Resto Druid/Disc Priest/Pally Beacon
War OT - Resto Sham2/Pally Main

If i do not have the Pally Healer, which is common for us, i usually have another Resto Druid. In that case i put both druids on the Druid OT. This works well for us.

When the fight starts I have all three tanks stack. The MT works a quick rotation and the OTs melee white for about 2-3 seconds then they start working their rotations. The purpose of this is to ensure that crit/snap aggro doesnt immediately surpass the MT and the roles get flipped.

The MT flips the boss, via strafing, away from the OTs who are now facing the back left of the boss.

About 4-5 seconds after all the tanks have worked a simple rotation I call in melee DPS. I never have the melee dip into the slime for this fight but I do build in an approximate 8-9 second delay from Pull to their engage to ensure they are not bursting higher then any of the other three tanks.

No melee or ranged will ever get a heal unless it is some AE heal that a Druid puts out, or some other AE style heal that impacts multiple targets.

When we first started Patches I had to focus healers onto one specific target because their natural reflex was to heal people. On this fight they need tunnel vision on only their target. this is another reason i stopped the melee from slime dancing. It removed temptation from the healers to heal them up; which incidentally defeated the purpose of the melee stepping in the slime to begin with.

I do not know the level of your healers but it seems more to me that it may have to do with focus and coordination versus healer skill. My healers are pretty tight but i find if i do not give them specific roles they will try to heal the whole world.

abude0000
03-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Clearly a healer issue.

We take on patchwerk with 3 tanks, one Paladin, one Warrior, one Druid.

None of our tanks go down during the fight unless something goes seriously wrong.

Have the healers check their rotations, food buffs, potions, and check raid buffs for proper mana regeneration buffs.

this is the same set up my guild goes with and we usually never wipe unless like you said somthing goes wrong, but this is also the best way to go tank speaking because you have the druid taking most of the hatefuls and then once it gets to the other OT his avoidance should be high enough were he will be only taking about 1 out of 4

suesse_llane
03-05-2009, 10:57 AM
Probably you need to have your heal leader / raid leader re-evaluate healing assignments, moving a healer off the MT onto an OT.

If you have two OTs, you'll probably need an extra healer just because two OTs is a lot more complicated to assign healing (even though it may be "safer"). One OT is really a lot easier configuration which is why you've seen your MT being healed even while taking hatefuls.

If this is difficult for you, make sure you're taking an armor potion 1 second before the pull and then another one 2 minutes before the fight is over.

Synnaminbun
03-18-2009, 10:18 AM
well if ur tanks are warriors, what i would do during the encounter is pop last stand and enraged regen. it'd be the smart thing to do and would make it easier on heals