View Full Version : Why'd we fail pt. 2
02-17-2009, 06:33 AM
So last night I took a somewhat different group into that naxx10 that I started last week. It was same MT/OT (warrs), a pally/druid/priest (heals) and 2 mages/2 dks/a TG warrior (dps)
If anyone remembers, last run was epic fail. We did spider wing then got faceraped on patch.
Well last night we go in with pretty good dps (4/5 above 2k dps on trash) and one shotted patch. we had 3 heals this time, all of which were geared.
So with some more hope for KT/Sapph we move onto Grobbulus.
3 attempts to kill him. A mage that didn't know you SHOULDN'T run into the middle of the room and drop the injection. Even on the third attempt when we told him, he still didn't know. MT wasn't moving at all, then too fast, then not fast enough, then cornered himself behind the stairs.
But we get him down.
Onto Gluth. Fight goes OK till a dps spec'd DK in tank gear dies while tanking the chow. So the other DK steps up, and also dies.
Everyone starts crying about how we need a hunter, so then a healer and 2 dps drop out, people say it's late and we should just try again next week.
So essentially it was 8 hours in Naxx10, 5 bosses, 200g in repairs.
So my question is...why is it so hard? Why is naxxramas so damn hard for us...
02-17-2009, 06:54 AM
Get a better guild, with nonfails.
Pretty simple answer that leads to a pretty difficult solution.
02-17-2009, 07:47 AM
Naxx is entry level raiding, but it is still more difficult than most non-raiders would have ever seen. If your raid doesn't have experience then fights that require anything more than a tank and spank are going to be learning fights. Some people will never be able to handle encounters that have multiple phases or require action beyond their normal button clicks etc.
I would get a stable group (same folks so you get some rhythym) that is going to be able to buckle down and learn the fights. Don't go in expecting to get to Sapp/Kt, try working on each wing, getting the bosses down perfectly. If people don't have the chops to follow instructions after a number of times seeing the fight, they probably will continue to be a roadblock in every fight from that point forward.
You can succeed with inexperienced or bad players if they are capable of learning and improving. You won't succeed if they aren't.
02-17-2009, 08:08 AM
the "Naxx is simple sauce" posts you see all over the place are a little miss leading. Naxx is easy, if you are well geared, playing with good people who have raided together before and know all the fights from naxx 40.
For a group of people new to playing with each other, who are probably only just geared enough for the encounters, who have never seen the fight, naxx isnt a faceroll.
Most people rolling into naxx were doing so in TBC T5+ epics (with some WOLK gap fillers), with a guild of people they had raided with before.. and quite often the guild they had raided naxx40 with before.
02-17-2009, 08:28 AM
Yeah I know the posts about "Lolnaxx" are from people that are rolling with competant people. I just don't understand what's so hard.
I've done naxx full clears in like 4 hours, with groups no better geared than that. People are just astoundingly slow in my guild I guess...
02-17-2009, 02:09 PM
Explaining how a fight goes is vastly different than having the player experience the fight for themselves. I remember when watching the Tankspot videos I thought how all the boss fights looked like cake.
Boy was I mistaken when I finally did them. Even if you move correctly on Grobbulus, he occasionally sprays the group, and you're dealing with multiple slimes. I've MT'ed him several times the same way, and one out of three tanking times he always manages to spray a dps. Heigan? He's not faceroll if you've never done the dance, no matter how many times you watch the video. The Four Horseman is easy if everyone is in sync. Sapphiron wiped us many times in a row until we learned how to avoid the ice showers (that was our major problem).
Oddly enough KT is the easiest boss in Naxx.
02-18-2009, 10:58 AM
The thing I don't get is you are jumping into the roughest quarter and then upset that you are wiping a ton ? Honestly knock out the easy wings first, start in arachnid then plague then military. Construct is a wing you need to gear up to, not run headlong into. I think you might find alot of your failure is coming from that, my raid group which was rolling kara and other instances for a long time together struggled on Construct. Honestly use the easy wings to get people geared and keep pushing at construct, but to expect to walk into naxx and 15/15 it, is pretty silly. My advice, set the bar a little lower work with your group to get them competent and cohesive together and then work on pushing the hard stuff out. Also turn them to sites like be.imba and here as well as others to help them better understand what they are capable of.
Just this week I got my group and the other ten man in a guild of casuals together to do Naxx 25 and we knocked Arachnid and Plague out of the box :)
Keep at it
02-18-2009, 12:04 PM
I can't comment on anything really, but what I can say is that my experience with Naxx is: The place has little to do with gear and everything to do with skill. Unless you're still in greens Naxx is more than doable as long as you have dps that know how to maximize and tanks/healers that have a basic understanding of raiding. You don't need to know the fights from Naxx40, but being an experience raider certainly helps.
It sounds like your group of people are quite new to raiding, and it ain't as easy to learn as it sounds. They probably started heroics more seriously in wotlk and compared them to BC heroics and then concluded that they where Naxx ready. Keep an eye out and note which people improves and keep sure to bring them along in place of those that don't improve.
02-18-2009, 12:10 PM
as upsetting as it is, some people in this game, no matter how well they can dish out damage, can't and won't understand a thing you tell them. We had 1-3 shot maly 4 weeks in a row, on the 4th week i got my barricade of eternity and said "lets get some new people in here and show them how it's done, it only took us what, 5 tries with our first group?" we go in. lowest dps is at 2k (with solid spark placement.. i would have rated it an 8/10. i think only once we missed a stack) in phase 1, then in phase 2, one of our melee dps never made it on to the scion in 4 attempts, whether she died or just couldn't figuer it out. in phase 3, recount showed 4 people without any sort of dot damage on maly (2 of them being healers, excused).
some people just aren't capable of doing things like this... on fights like patchwerk, it's fine. on thaddius, it's not. We've had to re-evaluate some of our guild members worth to the guild and i feel really rude to get on them like that, but if they can't handle it why do we drag them along?
02-19-2009, 05:52 PM
Not every guild is the same. My guild is based around a website I run, called AustralianGamer.com, and the community and readers of the site. We haven't found it easy by any means. We're a casual guild. We're also a tiny guild, rarely having numbers to field 80s for a 10 man Naxx. We're growing slowly, but 25 mans aren't even conceivable.
People's attitudes to guilds are sometimes strange to me. Someone's DPS too low? Kick them from the raid and get someone better. Gear not good enough? More heroics or GTFO.
But sometimes people want different things from a guild. My guild runs Naxx because it's fun. We want to progress as a guild, but not at the expense of our members. If people's DPS is low (and by god it is, one of our warlocks was doing 800 DPS) we help them gear up, take them on heroics, find crafted patterns that are an upgrade...
Because these aren't just stats. I don't run with the toons I want to. I run with the PEOPLE I want to, and personally comments about the sexual habits of a raid member's mother are just as important in vent as boss strategies.
Our 10 man attempts have been difficult. For all everyone has said Naxx is a roflstomp with loot basically thrown at you by the bosses as they fall apart in terror we've really struggled. We're NOT geared. We're NOT experienced. Most of us have minimal or no raid experience. Many of our raiders raced to 80 as fast as possible, just to get into Naxx with us, leaving their gear hopelessly minimal.
We've gone twice so far. We got Anub the second time each time. First time we got smeared by Widow because we tried to 9 man her and couldn't do the damage. The second time we wiped repeatedly, but eventually got the timing and took her out, only to reach the next roadblock at Maexxna.
Am I concerned? No. Regardless of anything else, we're getting better. We run heroics through the week, and from our 3 boss kills have gotten 7 items (one epic from trash, minion bracers which I got). Everything we do makes us better and closer. If we stay on schedule we'll get Maexxna next time and we'll have cleared a wing. And every time we go we can clear that wing again, getting more and more stuff as we move on to wiping on new and exciting bosses.
My point is simple... decide what exactly you want from this game. Progression for yourself? Or progression for your guild? There's no wrong answer here.
02-20-2009, 08:38 PM
Establish a raid end time, and if people leave before then there are serious consequences. I cannot believe you don't focus on that as the major source of problem. You are the raid leader, you contract with them to stay in the raid for a period of time and they don't leave early without prior arrangement.
You can do Gluth with numerous configurations, but it tends to be a dps learning curve encounter rather than the normal "tanks and healers have to be smart but everyone else can be dumb" encounter. You need to find a few people who can kite chows and make sure they are healed.
It is one of the harder encounters in Naxx 10 because it may require people who are otherwise adequate players to pick their game up a bit, and the tanks can't really force this.
02-21-2009, 04:51 AM
You just need better raid chemistry among your raiders.
For the last 2 weeks, I have been tanking naxx10 for my real life aquintances. They are not in my guild, but since I usually run on my priest for the guild runs, I tank for them on my warrior.
It is important that the raid leader(s) research and explain the fight clearly. Most people will understand if you try to give a visual interpretation. As for me, I usually use smoke flares to target the areas I want my raiders to go when and where. Mini map pings work as well. Raid leaders should have a bit more common sense than the other raiders, like using abilities to the best advantages. For example, if you have both warrior tanks, use vigilance on each other. If you have two paladin healers, assign one to each tank and tell them to beacon of light the other tank when in a boss encounter that requires many tanks.
My real life buddies are barely geared, their dps only doing about 1500 average split among them, but we managed to get to Kel'thuzad during the second week.
FYI, when I try to see if I can run well along with someone in a raid, I usually go in a heroic with them and do things like pull extra mobs or use abilities I should not do and see how they handle it. Even if it wipes the group, I would know better how I would run better with them... because in raiding, things will go wrong.
PS, don't tank the zombie chow, kite them... If you tank, you die :O