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View Full Version : Prot 5/15/51 Build For 5 mans?



pullio
02-17-2009, 05:24 AM
First the spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZGx00xZMItrx0zidIzsGo)
You can move some points around between vigilance, concussion blow, and shield specialization as you see fit. Also the booming voice points can be moved, depending on preference. I find it to be a nice convenience and you definitely always want to keep it up when you have commanding presence.

Now the reason for the spec:

I'm unable to raid at the moment due to scheduling and time zone issues and I was thinking that there may be others who only get to tank heroics (regulars too if you like).

Instead of the typical raid spec, which works fine in heroics, I spent some time coming up with 5 man specific specs where you often don't have another warrior in the group (and even then it's useful unless you have 2 warriors w/ presence spec'd) that should squeeze a little more performance out of yourself and your group.

I'm going to try out the 5/15/51 spec above though to see how it plays out in non-raid tanking. Commanding presence can be a big boon to your party so I figured it makes sense.

My concerns are: 1) occasional rage starvation 2) possible lower deeps without deep wounds. 3) higher group deeps in melee groups may create threat issues, hence the point in vigilance.

Any thoughts? Anyone else tried this spec or a similar one?


Currently I'm 15/5/51 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZcItrx0zibIzsGo)) and the Deeps is great once your hit and expertise get up there. You can reduce your defense to 535 to make room for hit, expertise, and strength by the way. Not too hard to heal in heroics and the added rage is nice. I think a 5/15/51 has potential to do better for the entire group though.

CyCy
02-17-2009, 05:39 AM
5 points for parry? in heroics? Booming voice and Commanding presence?..... No improved HS and no points in safeguard. This looks more like an OT build then a Heroic instance build. I would strongly suggest improved Spell reflect for five mans as well as someone who mainly does 5 mans and the short raids OS and Vault.

I'd play around with the points for more overall dps it's similar to the build I used pre 80 I just found not being rage starved and having excess after a fight allows for popping the shouts outta combat and removes the need for the 3mins.

pullio
02-17-2009, 05:50 AM
1) Parry. I'm not entirely sure how useful this is for mitigation, but since we're losing some out of shield spec I figured it'd be a good ida to include it here. Points could be moved to HS if you're not worried about extra mitigation. Depends on your gear I guess, but it seems to be included in most popular tank specs.

2) Commanding presence. This is the whole point of this build experiment. The added *GROUP* Deeps for trash and Health for bosses would be useful imho. On my server I rarely get to run with a TG warrior, let alone two. You get pallies often enough but it's still useful even then.

3) Booming voice. These are 2 convenience points needed to get commanding. You could move em to demo or even unbridled (since rage might be a bit of an issue). If you don't mind rebuffing after each fight I'd recommend demo for added mitigation, specially with all the AoE pulls.

Please link the build you would prefer for 5 mans so we can get some new ideas for non-raid tankers.

Maybe this? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhZhg00xZMItrg0zidIzsGo)

Wao
02-17-2009, 05:58 AM
There are 2 main issues that you'll deal with while tanking heroics.

1) Rage Starvation. To circumvent this, you'll actually want to stack armor, hit, expertise, and block (both rating an value). Talenting into deflection and anticipation is ill-advised if you're only going to be running heroics. Picking up AttT, and Imp. HS are important as well. Consider getting Glyph of Revenge and Glyph of Heroic Strike to assist with avoiding rage starvation.


2) People dying. In a heroic, 1 person dying represents 20% of the groups resources. (Obviously if it's a healer, that's an incredibly valuable 20%). Talents such as improved spell reflection, warbringer and safeguard are paramount in helping to keep people alive (though honestly, I've never taken safeguard, and probably never will)

I'd drop all of commanding presence and booming voice for sure. Then scale it back to 2/5 cruelty. Dump those points to get up to impale and deep wounds. The TPS gain AND the DPS gain warrants the loss of longer, stronger shouts.

After switching those points from fury to arms, you should drop the 5 from Anticipation, and pick up Imp. SR, and shield spec.

Something like this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LGMc0fZhbZVIzrg0zidIzsGo)

Wao
02-17-2009, 06:06 AM
You're hinging on Commanding Presence as useful in 5-mans, and it's just not really viable from a tanking perspective. A large majority of our TPS comes from impale and deep wounds. If your party really needs the extra 563.75 health from your Comm shout, you've got an entirely new set of problems. Additionally, even if you were running an entirely melee group, 137 extra attack power from Battle Shout for 80% of your group will probably just barely surpass the dps gain you yourself will get from impale and deep wounds. I know that in heroics with my standard raiding build (with anticipation and deflection, which usually leave me rage starved), I can easily get 1800-2200 DPS. Impale and deep wounds probably make up a significant portion of that.

I understand that this build is "experimental", but if I saw a professional race-car driver working on an experimental car with no seat belt, I'd throw out a friendly suggestion or two. In your search to be a useful group buffer, you're severely limiting your own TPS and DPS potential, which will adversely affect your groups ability to DPS as well.

CyCy
02-17-2009, 06:13 AM
Btw looking at what my talents are now is my OT spec but this is the closest i could come to what your getting at I think. The 8 points in arms is just to get to Iron Will. Like I said if the goal is overall buffing of group it makes it more an OT build. For a solid 5 man the 15/5/51 build is a tough one to beat imo.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=050030000000000000000000000000024 50000000000000000000000005335122520001252103111312 1#none)

this is what I usually spec for for 5 mans
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=050030000000000000000000000000024 50000000000000000000000005335122520001252103111312 1#none)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=302230002300000000000000000000005 00000000000000000000000005222122520001250133211332 1

pullio
02-17-2009, 06:31 AM
Wao, the point about anticipation messing with our threat is something I overlooked (although I hear blizz may change that in 3.1.0). Point for point I always assumed anticipation was better than shield spec, but I was just thinking mitigation and not rage.

So this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZVIzrg0zidIzsGo)
would probably be better in heroics than the standard 15/5/51?

Mookey
02-17-2009, 06:49 AM
Hahaha very funy ideas here.

1) Wao gave you best idea for rage starvation - remove dodge get more block and full spellreflect/revenge Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZVIzrg0zidIzsGo)
2) All those builds are toys compared to normal 15/5/51 build, and belive me on your level of gear you dont need different build.

I'm tanking heroics every time I'm not MTing 25/10man and belive me you shall not be rage starved even with better gear. Adjust your abilities to the amount of rage you gonna have... not every fight is Patchwerk

Edit: Opened reply but aint posted fast enough - yes that build is best for what you want. For achievements and harder stuff you might want back that dodge points... Get Block gear and go heroics and enjoy.

pullio
02-17-2009, 10:08 AM
Oh I've already been doing heroics for a while (maybe 200 or so badges), and I'm using a 15/5/51 build (but I shorted shield spec instead of anticipation which I'll change). I still have issues with the first boss pulls in AzN like I'm sure many of us do, but other than that I find all of the heroics pretty easy.

This is just speculation about whether or not there's a better build to be had for someone only running heroics and dailies and of course working our alts. It seems the concensus is an emphatic NO ;) Commanding presence just isn't worth the TPS and rage sacrifices.

I guess I'm just trying to find the best build when dealing with PUGs. Something that still has the mitigation in case your healer's undergeared or not really paying attention, and some buffs to compensate for lower deeps. PUGs being hit and miss (some amazing, some terrible).

I'm still going to try it and for giggles and see how it works out. In the end I'll probably end up back with the 15/5/51 but shorting anticipation instead of shield spec and grabbing spell reflect. Seems like more of a PvProt build too which would be nice.

Wao
02-18-2009, 05:26 AM
To be honest, I have been tanking 25-mans with it since WotLK came out, and my guild hasn't noticed yet.

defjam
02-18-2009, 05:56 AM
To be honest, I have been tanking 25-mans with it since WotLK came out, and my guild hasn't noticed yet.

VOA doesn't count cuz he's easy sauce now

pullio
02-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Ok so to report back, a 15/5/51 build does look to be the best, especially for 5 mans if you can afford to take the prot points from anticipation and with 2 in spell reflect. If you're also raiding you may want to adjust that a little, but the added rage from reduced doge and shield specialization seems well worth it for the added threat and deeps you get. Depending on gear (dodge and health) and whether your pugging healers, you may want to keep a point or two in anticipation still.

Assuming you've at least hit the 535 def cap.

Hit and expertise are also a huge boon to threat, rage, and deeps. Not sure you really need to get the 8-9% hit for heroics, but I'd say aiming for 200 or so ( > 6% ) is probably a good idea and will improve your rage.

One question I have though, is the value of a titanium shield spike in 5 mans? Seems like a better option than +20 def if you consider the added threat from AoE tanking (which is nonstop in heroics). I may replace some hit / expertise gems with defense so I can put the spike on my shield. Seems like it might be worth it.

Cattlehunter
02-18-2009, 05:50 PM
I though the titanium shield spike looked appealing too. Then I noticed the Titanium Plating (Titanium Plating - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i44936)).

Wao
02-19-2009, 02:09 AM
VOA doesn't count cuz he's easy sauce now

I'm not sure if this is trolling or not, but all right, I'll bite.

VoA has always been easysauce, I don't recall any nerfs to him.

I've main-tanked every current raid encounter (save 3D sarth) using this spec.

Mookey
02-19-2009, 03:56 AM
Well 15/5/51(15/3/53) is simple standard with some tradeoffs in prot with our without 2 cruelty. I cannot trade avoidance from talents because I need it for 25 man and that avoidance from talents (5% dodge/parry) is not under diminishing returns.

About shield enchants - I got so far only WoT - this is how my setup gonna look in future:
1) Trash: Block rating gear + WoT + Titanium spike for best aoe tanking
2) Bosses: Hero Surender + Def enchant for max avoidance
3) Single Threat/Progression: Baricade + Plating until Ulduar come than might switch to 20 def

Nutty911
04-04-2009, 08:58 PM
I started playing WoW after WotLK came out, so I don't know what it was like before, but I play a prot Warrior and I have specced down to "Cleave", in Arms using a 5/13/53 talent spec. I've been looking around and haven't seen anyone mention this type of talent setup. This spec with the "Glyph of Cleaving" (Adds one more target to your Cleave ability) has proven rather useful, but since no one else is using it, is it really that bad? I have maxed "Armed to the Teeth", "Booming Voice" and "Cruelty" in order to get to the "Cleave" talent. In my opinion this is good for AoE tanking, which is very important in most instances and raids (At least of those I have done).

dyls
04-05-2009, 02:16 PM
The short answer is, it's fine for trash, but not great for bosses. If you're an OT, or only doing heroics, it's great. If you're expected to be the MT in a progression raid, missing out on some of that defensive stuff (i.e. 5% parry) is not ideal.

Or for an even shorter answer :) - good for trash, not that good for bosses.

Jungy
04-05-2009, 04:21 PM
tbh, those builds are good. But if we're talking strictly 5 mans, DW will not be up long enough since the DPS classes will most likely kill it before it does any real damage. Keeping that in mind, the threat gained from it wont be a huge difference.

Your self buffs without any talents are good enough for 5 mans as they are, i wouldnt waste any points for that.

Your biggest issue, as pointed out already, is going to be rage starvation. I would personally go with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhZhxxZVItMgzzidIzsGo) .

Unbridled Wrath along with Focused Rage and a point in Puncture will help a great a deal.

Now your spec wont be the only thing that you will have to change to be effective in 5 mans. Your gear choice will affect everything regardless of spec and group composition. I would spend time working on getting block value items and block rating items. 19%-21% dodge would be where you want to shoot for. The amount of parry that you will gain from defense and most likely from items will be more than enough.