PDA

View Full Version : S3D 10man Need Help



evilkyle
02-16-2009, 11:15 AM
First off we already downed S3D 25

3 Tanks Druid, Warrior, Pali
3 Healers Priest, Pali, Shaman
4 Dps Hunter, Hunter, Warrior, Rogue

Each dps is doing between 3500-3900 on the average attempt

Buffs: Kings, Might, Fortitude, Mark of the Wild, Commanding shout, Leader of the Pack, WF totem, Str totem, Heroism


Our best attempts we got Heroism>Drake 1 down>adds down>drake 2 to 50%>wipe

Our wipes on Best attempts were from MT not getting heals fast enough plus getting unlucky with Breath>melee hit>melee hit.(He didnít dodge and they didnít miss) and MT got no heal for a full 3.2 seconds from the pali.

MT has green FR neck and belt and Epic FR Boots, Chest.

It is mitigating a lot of the dmg from the breath which helps a lot. He has less dodge, but he thinks itís worth it to take less breath dmg and to not have to need a healer rotation on him constantly.


I feel we should be getting drake 2 down faster though. Should our dps be higher to be able to do this? We use Heroism on drake 1 because we get 2 sets of welps if we donít and at that point itís always a wipe.

Even though our roadblock atm is everyone doing their job right I think we will run into another one after the Druid MT has used all his CD's and the pali & priest have used theirs and drake 2 will prob be at around 20%. I think it took 5 breaths to take drake 2 to 50%.

Here are the five last breaths on that log. (We tried a Disc priest on MT this attempt, but he couldnít keep up with the healing needed after Drake 3 landed)

[/URL]Flame Breath hits Tank for 17557 Fire. (4544 Resisted)
(http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419)Flame Breath hits Tank for 7994 Fire. (6923 Resisted) (8056 Absorbed)
Flame Breath hits Tank for 16764 Fire. (5426 Resisted) (2107 Absorbed)
(http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419)Flame Breath hits Tank for 23218 Fire. (5341 Resisted)
[URL="http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419"]Flame Breath hits Tank for 31123 Fire. (4603 Resisted)

So Question in summary:
Does dps need to be higher?
Are we missing a mandatory buff/debuff needed with this setup?
Should we be jumping in the portal when its avalible during the Drake 2 kill?
Any other recommendations would be helpful.

Lore
02-16-2009, 11:52 AM
Pointing out potential problems as I come across them in your post:


3 Healers Priest, Pali, Shaman

It's incredibly painful, but you really need to be able to do it with 2 healers.


Each dps is doing between 3500-3900 on the average attempt

This needs to be about 1000-1500 higher. Aside from gear and performance, there's a couple things you can try to do to increase this. Have the drake tank keep them as still as possible -- their hitboxes are very small, so you can generally assume that every time a drake is moving, melee are doing 0 DPS. He shouldn't be moving unless it's to dodge a flame wall or point their breath away from the raid.


Our best attempts we got Heroism>Drake 1 down>adds down>drake 2 to 50%>wipe

There should be no "adds down" in there. Go straight from killing the first drake to killing the second drake. Shadron has to die quickly.


Even though our roadblock atm is everyone doing their job right I think we will run into another one after the Druid MT has used all his CD's and the pali & priest have used theirs and drake 2 will prob be at around 20%. I think it took 5 breaths to take drake 2 to 50%.

This is another indication that DPS is too low. Shadron (drake 2) should be at or near 50% right as the 3rd drake is landing. He should be around 40% when the massive breaths (and the cooldown rotation) start. You should not be spending more than 30-45 seconds with both Drake 2 and Drake 3 active.


Here are the five last breaths on that log. (We tried a Disc priest on MT this attempt, but he couldn’t keep up with the healing needed after Drake 3 landed)

[/URL]Flame Breath hits Tank for 17557 Fire. (4544 Resisted)
(http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419)Flame Breath hits Tank for 7994 Fire. (6923 Resisted) (8056 Absorbed)
Flame Breath hits Tank for 16764 Fire. (5426 Resisted) (2107 Absorbed)
(http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419)Flame Breath hits Tank for 23218 Fire. (5341 Resisted)
[URL="http://wowwebstats.com/otnrp12sng51m?s=54087-63452&a=xf1300070bc001419"]Flame Breath hits Tank for 31123 Fire. (4603 Resisted)

Uh... if this attempt was with a Disc priest on the MT, you should probably re-evaluate said Disc priest. Every single breath should have had at least some absorb to it, and the amount absorbed should have been much higher.

Does dps need to be higher? Yes, very much so.

Are we missing a mandatory buff/debuff needed with this setup? Replenishment probably, depending on Hunter specs. 3% crit or 2% physical damage debuffs, depending on Rogue and DPS Warrior spec. Possibly missing 5% crit buff as well, depending on DPS Warrior spec. 10% AP buff depending on Hunter specs. 3% damage buff depending on Hunter specs. Since you'd need 3 Hunters for them to be providing all 3 buffs, chances are good you're missing at least one. If you're stacking your DPS for physical damage, chances are really good you're missing a debuff or two somewhere.

Should we be jumping in the portal when its avalible during the Drake 2 kill? No. It wastes too much time and the MT can't afford to stop his cooldown rotation anyway. Just kill Shadron ASAP.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 12:14 PM
Uh... if this attempt was with a Disc priest on the MT, you should probably re-evaluate said Disc priest. Every single breath should have had at least some absorb to it, and the amount absorbed should have been much higher.



I think he just used his shields every time they were avl. We will have a pali on the MT for every attempt from now on.


2 Healers? We tried it and couldnt get anywhere. Pali on MTT, Disc Priest on Drake with Beacon on Add Tank and the shaman dps'ing on Drake one and helping heal raid/add tank when adds came. His dps was decent, his healing was sub par and we wiped non stop until he went resto. Then we had no problem healing the Add tank or raid, but then had problems with MT dying and Drake 2 being alive too long.

Our optimum group is 2 TG Warriors, 1 Surv Hunter, 1 Blood DK, 3 tanks(same) 3 healers (same)

I can pretty much guarantee 2 healing this will never work since when we tried it adds killed Add tank and adds killed healers.

Note- Our Priest was just testing Disc with the fight and is most likely going back to Holy.

Dalarandude
02-16-2009, 12:14 PM
We do this with a Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, Elemental Shaman, Arcane Mage, MM Hunter, Afflic Lock, Rogue, Warrior and Drood tank, with a Protadin. The lowest dpser is our hunter at about 4200ish dps. Arcane mage has massive bursts that break 5900 with 3 AB rotations. About 80% chance of survival.

Edit: Our group B uses a Blood/UH DK, Two Rogues, Maintankadin, Warrior, Group A's Elemental Shaman respecs resto, Druid Heals, awful FFB mage, two hunters (not sure on spec). They have about 40% chance of survival atm.

Im actualy gonna see if we can get group A's succes rating by using three tanks because our main cause of death is loose mobs. We usualy dont have two drakes alive for more than 20-30 sec. Our warrior is ok at picking up random's, but im sure if he respecced prot he could manage better. Group B has no problems with adds with their DK, but druid heals used to be a kitty so they are underhealed.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 12:19 PM
We do this with a Holy Priest, Holy Paladin, Elemental Shaman, Arcane Mage, MM Hunter, Afflic Lock, Warrior and Drood tanks. The lowest dpser is our hunter at about 4200ish dps. Arcane mage has massive bursts that break 5900 with 3 AB rotations.

you named 8 classes. 2 tank, 3 tanks? 2 healers 5 dps? I can't get a clear picture.

Lore
02-16-2009, 12:25 PM
I think he just used his shields every time they were avl. We will have a pali on the MT for every attempt from now on.

I actually think Disc Priests are much better for MT healing, but it does depend largely on player gear and skill. Disc Priest should be saving his shield for when the breath is casting, and should be critting heals enough that there are bubbles up a lot anyway.


2 Healers? We tried it and couldnt get anywhere. Pali on MTT, Disc Priest on Drake with Beacon on Add Tank and the shaman dps'ing on Drake one and helping heal raid/add tank when adds came. His dps was decent, his healing was sub par and we wiped non stop until he went resto. Then we had no problem healing the Add tank or raid, but then had problems with MT dying and Drake 2 being alive too long.

Our optimum group is 2 TG Warriors, 1 Surv Hunter, 1 Blood DK, 3 tanks(same) 3 healers (same)

I can pretty much guarantee 2 healing this will never work since when we tried it adds killed Add tank and adds killed healers.

Well, I did it with 2 healers ;) First kill was with a Disc Priest and a Pally, even, with an Enhance shaman tossing out extra heals when possible (particularly when both Drake 2 and 3 were active). It's messy. It's a huge strain on the healers. It's definitely possible.


Note- Our Priest was just testing Disc with the fight and is most likely going back to Holy.

This is probably why his Disc performance was subpar. Disc and Holy have very different gear considerations.

Ray
02-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Now I have yet to actually down this, but we made big progress last night. We used a 2 healer setup of 2 resto druids. Now this was non ideal due to our pally not being able to make it so we had to take a second resto. We also used a VW on Sarth, with the lock helping to DPS on Tene and then just health funneling the VW.

Our group setup was:

Unholy DK (me) on adds
Prot war = drake tank
2 x Resto druids
Lock VW tank
2 x Mages
1 x Hunter
1 x Ele Shammy
1 x SP

We were going for max group synergy with our DPS while maintaining a MD for the tanks. IMO melee makes this fight very very hard as there DPS up time surfers the most in this fight. Not that it cant be done, but the melee needs to be very good. Our biggest problem was the healers running low on mana, they switched up some gear, then our problem was threat capping the mages and just silly mistakes.

We did try and have the shammy spec resto but we found the DPS loss to be to great as we were getting 2 whelp waves. So the shammy went back to ele. She helped burn tenebron and then switched over to raid healing once TT was up. She also healed in the portal when we go that far.

Now, my question is:

1. we were AoEing the adds down between Tene and Shad. It didnt take more than 15 to 20 sec, so should we skip this and rely on me (add tank) DPSing down the adds on my own?? Or have one AoEer help me out to get whelps down? The problem is that when I have all the adds on me I have a hard time running to get other adds off the healers and we had a few attempts ruined by me failing to get to the add with all the whelps on me.

2. What would be the "iddeal" 2 healer setup? We generally run with a very good tree, so what would be a good partner for him?

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 12:39 PM
This is probably why his Disc performance was subpar. Disc and Holy have very different gear considerations.

Our Priest Healer is very good as Holy. He is top healing in almost every Naxx encounter and researches his class to make sure everything is done efficiently and properly.

Recount for the Priest Healer for that attempt. He was good until the end. The melee hits were hitting for more then his Flash Heal were healing for so he couldnt keep up with the large amount of dmg.



Flash Heal - 290,550 total healed, 58% of healing done, 39hits, 16 crits, avg heal 4590, max heal 8417, overhealign 28%

Penance- 115911 total healed, 23% of healing done, 23hits, 7 crits, avg heal 3506, max 5257, 12% overhealing

Renew- 47621
Prayer of Mending- 38730

Lore
02-16-2009, 12:48 PM
I wasn't saying he was a bad priest, I was saying his gear probably wasn't optimal for Disc. It really is a big difference.

That said, his numbers are pretty different from our Disc Priest's... Penance was almost 50% of her healing, with Flash Heal and Prayer of Mending filling in most of the other half.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 12:53 PM
Lore, could you post a WWS report of a 10man S3D kill?

Preferably one with a pali/priest healing.

Lore
02-16-2009, 01:20 PM
I'll have to dig up the one from our kill last week, I'm not sure where it ran off to.

If I can't find it I'll make sure we get one next time we do it.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 01:26 PM
I'll have to dig up the one from our kill last week, I'm not sure where it ran off to.

If I can't find it I'll make sure we get one next time we do it.


Thanks.


In your opinion if we cant get it down with 2 healers would: 3 healers, 3 tanks and 4 dps w/ 4k dps each minimum work?

Lore
02-16-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm not really sure. We beat our heads against it with 3 healers for two nights and couldn't really make any progress. I still think the DPS needs to be higher though, I'll have to check next time to be sure but I'm pretty sure all 5 of our DPS were over 4k and we still had quite a few attempts where DPS was just too slow.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 01:41 PM
I'm not really sure. We beat our heads against it with 3 healers for two nights and couldn't really make any progress. I still think the DPS needs to be higher though, I'll have to check next time to be sure but I'm pretty sure all 5 of our DPS were over 4k and we still had quite a few attempts where DPS was just too slow.


So one Healer keeps up the MT, Beacon on Add tank, and the other Healer heals Drake Tank, Add tank and raid And then when Twilight torment damage becomes an issue your dps shaman heals raid?

Lore
02-16-2009, 01:43 PM
So one Healer keeps up the MT, Beacon on Add tank, and the other Healer heals Drake Tank, Add tank and raid And then when Twilight torment damage becomes an issue your dps shaman heals raid?

Yeah, more or less. Heals kinda fly all over the place, the dps shaman can't do all the raid healing himself. We also have a warlock for healthstones, a ret pally for Divine Storm + instant FoL's, and Judgement of Light on the boss.

Probably wouldn't work with your setup though. We have mostly caster DPS.

Ray
02-16-2009, 01:47 PM
So one Healer keeps up the MT, Beacon on Add tank, and the other Healer heals Drake Tank, Add tank and raid And then when Twilight torment damage becomes an issue your dps shaman heals raid?

Pretty much.

Our Ele Shammy DPSd Tene and some on Shad. But as soon as TT went up, she switched over to raid healing.

We ran with 2 trees and one was on blueberry, one was on drake, and they both healed me (add tank).

From what I can tell, if you can get it to just Shad + Vesp and adds clear, its just a matter of healers keeping up with tank dam (which granted is very high) and DPSer not killing themselves on TT or lave strikes. Our 2 best attempts were ruined by blueberry healer running OOM as Vesp was dying and me not calling for AoE on adds when I had a bad round of 5 blazes spawn with 3 on me already. I should have called for AoE so I didnt get killed.

Lore: When do you ussually use your Hero? do you use it on Tene at 50? 30? after X # of lava walls? We were sorta tenative to use hero early due to not having it next attempt if something stupid happened.

evilkyle
02-16-2009, 01:52 PM
Yeah, more or less. Heals kinda fly all over the place, the dps shaman can't do all the raid healing himself. We also have a warlock for healthstones, a ret pally for Divine Storm + instant FoL's, and Judgement of Light on the boss.

Probably wouldn't work with your setup though. We have mostly caster DPS.


If we get all the right ppl w/ highest healing, highest dps our setup will be:

1 Ret Pali, 2 TG Warriors, 1 Arcane Mage, 1 Surv Hunter, 1 Resto Shaman, 1 Holy Pali, 1 Druid Tank(MT), 1 Prot Warrior(Drakes), 1 Prot pali (Adds)

Lore
02-16-2009, 02:17 PM
Lore: When do you ussually use your Hero? do you use it on Tene at 50? 30? after X # of lava walls? We were sorta tenative to use hero early due to not having it next attempt if something stupid happened.

We used it immediately after the first lava wall.

Wipes sucked.

Ray
02-16-2009, 02:26 PM
We used it immediately after the first lava wall.

Wipes sucked.

/sigh I figured.

was there a reason behind this??

Lore
02-16-2009, 03:47 PM
/sigh I figured.

was there a reason behind this??

We wanted to eliminate the chance of a second whelp spawn. Second pack of whelps = wipe.

Arach
02-16-2009, 09:09 PM
You really should try using 2 healers.

We did it using a holy paladin and a resto druid.

The paladin has no difficulties whatsoever healing the MT, and can assist the druid on the drake tank (especially when Vesperon lands).

Taking 1 more DPS means you do not have to use any cooldowns on Tenebron to kill him before a 2nd whelp spawn.
We use hero and all cooldowns on Shadron, he gets burned down pretty fast. And although Vesperon is not dead yet, the fight is much more stable at that point.