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Ezmode
02-15-2009, 10:42 AM
Hello everyone, getting straight to the point, my guild has me appointed as the Drake tank (Warrior), DK as Sarth's tank, and a Pally for adds. We kill Tenebron just fine, the problem is when I get Shadron and Vesperon. When they both decide to Shadow Breath at the same time, it takes off a majority of my health, the breath is then followed by melee hits that finish me off. All this happens within 2 seconds (literally).

I was wondering what could be done to avoid tgetting blown up while I tanked the last 2 drakes. I have about 29.4k HP buffed after the 25% HP debuff. Besides gemming all stam, is there another way I could live through the double breath/melee?

Lore
02-15-2009, 10:51 AM
Save your shield wall for when that happens. Be ready to pop it at a moment's notice when you've got both Shadron and Vesperon on you.

4pc T7 is excellent here.

Ezmode
02-15-2009, 10:58 AM
I do that, I use Last Stand and Shield Wall, one after the other, but that is only ~30 seconds, and unfortunately it is not enough.

Lore
02-15-2009, 11:02 AM
Sounds like your DPS is falling behind. 30 seconds is a long time to have to survive both.

Darksend
02-15-2009, 11:02 AM
there are 2 encounters in the current content

1) 3d sarth
2) everything else

you have to gem for stam, double stam trinkets if possible, all stam enchants

the problem is when they breath at the same time you die to fast to even use shield wall, or you use it an still die. i have been taken from 100->20 in less than 2 seconds and then saved only by last stand + pot/HS and this is as a druid with 36K hp after the debuff.

i know in our alt 2d runs we have 2 dk tanks, the one on drakes tries to guess with AMS and sometimes gets lucky but we have had 100% perfect attempts wipe because hes sitting at 100% and they both breath at the same time.

Darksend
02-15-2009, 11:03 AM
lore, hes on drakes not sarth

Ezmode
02-15-2009, 11:14 AM
Well after killing Tenebron, they focus on whelps/fires while I drag Shadron to the the last spot, by the time they get on Shadron, Vesperon lands. I die when Shadron is at about 60% health. That is when my cooldowns are out. I think the DPS is slow because of Twilight Torment, because I know a few times our DPS tried to burn through him and they got themselves killed because of the self damaging part. Somehow, we did manage to kill him last week, but I still died in that attempt too right as Shadron died, someone else picked up Vesperon.

Should I just suggest they use our Druid tank (40k HP with drakes up /drool..) and help the Paladin on the adds instead?

klor
02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
I would suggest only having like 3-4 people getting on adds and the rest burning shadron. I tank shadron right where he lands until about 10-15 seconds before vesp lands... that way DPS can unload on him until that point. The whole point of that fight is getting Shadron down ASAP since the make or break factor is the amount of time that Shadron and Vesperon are both alive. That -IS- the encounter, that small window. Your paladin should be able to handle the adds long enough for just 4 aoe dps to down the whelps. That would be my advice since thats how we did it. We put 2 boomkin, 1 shadow priest, and a DK on the adds.

I tanked the drakes sucessfully with 27.7K hp unbuffed. There were a few times that I did get rocked by the breath, but its going to happen.

Ezmode
02-15-2009, 11:30 AM
I'll try and ask them to let the single target DPS stay on Shadron then, see how it goes next week. Thanks for the help everyone.

sevve
02-15-2009, 02:01 PM
We used to do this with me tanking all the drakes. We did however never get it on farm this way, we spent a lot of time each kill.

After getting annoyed with this we changed our strat, and made a really solid plan. The result was killing him on the third try with 4-5 people who were completely new to the encounter. Here is what we did:

-We kill Tenebron where he lands, while the second add-tank(we have two) picks up Shadron.
-Right before Tenebron dies I taunt Shadron, and we kill him at the same spot as Tenebron lands. Aoers clear out whelps.
-When Vesperon lands, the second add-tank picks up Vesperon and tanks him. The ret pallies(we have 2) takes turns and sacrifices the sarth-tank, and then run back to dps. With their Diving Guardian talent, this greatly reduces twilight torment damage on the dpsers.

I believe the primary reason it was so easy this way is that we get to use a lot more of the platform, so only 1-2 people take damage from the same lava strike. Secondly the dps on Tenebron on Shadron was way higher

Final tip: to coordinate MT cooldowns, use for instance /dbm broadcast timer 12 Sacrifice
Easier for everyone to keep track on what external cooldowns are up on the MT.

Kataztrophe
02-16-2009, 06:01 PM
As soon as Vesperon lands and you have him and Shadron on you, start popping your CD's. Usually I don't pop them all at once. I'll pop Monarch Crab and Last Stand, wait like 10 seconds, then pop Shield Wall and a hstone. When Shadron is dead, you've pretty much won the fight if your raid holds up. Also I tank the Drakes the same side as our DK on Sarth so I'm getting heals from Beacon as well.

Everytime you run across the platform make sure you keep up commanding shout for you and your raid. The extra 2k hp is priceless and you can't afford to not have it up the whole time. Your healers have to be on point as well.

Lore
02-16-2009, 06:49 PM
lore, hes on drakes not sarth

I know. It doesn't change what I said :P

Xav
02-16-2009, 07:56 PM
Shadow Resist > drakes.

I wear 250 shadow res when doing the 10 man (we've 9 manned it, actually, but that's another story) with 3 drakes up. The burst from both breaths at the same time is ridiculous. Shadow resist takes it down soooo much. From "insta gib" to "very healable"

Darksend
02-17-2009, 09:24 AM
I know. It doesn't change what I said :P

yea i guess ur right, i usually sleep through 25 man 3d so my memory is mostly of failed nightfall groups trying to carry the last group of bads who dont have it yet and i have vesperon and shadron on me for 2 minutes plus




Shadow Resist > drakes.

I wear 250 shadow res when doing the 10 man (we've 9 manned it, actually, but that's another story) with 3 drakes up. The burst from both breaths at the same time is ridiculous. Shadow resist takes it down soooo much. From "insta gib" to "very healable"

heart of darkness SR or level 80 greens of shadow resist (havent actually looked at any 80 of resist greens TBH)

lemysterieux
02-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Well after killing Tenebron, they focus on whelps/fires while I drag Shadron to the the last spot, by the time they get on Shadron, Vesperon lands. I die when Shadron is at about 60% health. That is when my cooldowns are out. I think the DPS is slow because of Twilight Torment, because I know a few times our DPS tried to burn through him and they got themselves killed because of the self damaging part. Somehow, we did manage to kill him last week, but I still died in that attempt too right as Shadron died, someone else picked up Vesperon.

Should I just suggest they use our Druid tank (40k HP with drakes up /drool..) and help the Paladin on the adds instead?

I think you should try to set up tank targets a bit different. We use one tank that handles Tenebron and Shadron, and a second tank on Vesperon.

We use 4 tanks - 2 protwarriors on the drakes with approx 40k raidbuffed hp, one palatank on the whelps/adds and a DK on Sarth. We only use locks and mages to handle whelps and spawns, melee and other singletarget dps goes straight to Shadron. We pop BL as soon as Tenebron reaches 0%. Using melee and other singletarget dps on whelps,spawns is a huge delay on getting the drakes down asap.

coup321
02-21-2009, 11:39 PM
Shadow Resist > drakes.

I wear 250 shadow res when doing the 10 man (we've 9 manned it, actually, but that's another story) with 3 drakes up. The burst from both breaths at the same time is ridiculous. Shadow resist takes it down soooo much. From "insta gib" to "very healable"

I'm also curious what SR gear you use. We tried using another tank on vesp, but I ended up just saving shield wall and rotating it around the bubble walls the pallies did to avoid dead dps from twilight torment. We got the kill in the end of the night, but I wonder if some SR might have made it easier.

Ezmode
02-23-2009, 09:21 AM
Shadow Resist > drakes.

I wear 250 shadow res when doing the 10 man (we've 9 manned it, actually, but that's another story) with 3 drakes up. The burst from both breaths at the same time is ridiculous. Shadow resist takes it down soooo much. From "insta gib" to "very healable"


Including Shadow Prot? If not then is the difference in HP/stats a good trade off?


I think you should try to set up tank targets a bit different. We use one tank that handles Tenebron and Shadron, and a second tank on Vesperon.

We use 4 tanks - 2 protwarriors on the drakes with approx 40k raidbuffed hp, one palatank on the whelps/adds and a DK on Sarth. We only use locks and mages to handle whelps and spawns, melee and other singletarget dps goes straight to Shadron. We pop BL as soon as Tenebron reaches 0%. Using melee and other singletarget dps on whelps,spawns is a huge delay on getting the drakes down asap.

We tried putting a feral druid on Shadron and myself on Tenebron and Vesperon. The healers did not like it though, they say it was too much extra work. Unfortunately I just don't see how that could be, but since they are the healers what ever makes them comfortable is our strategy. During tonight's attempt I'll ask them if the Druid tank wants to trade places with me for a bit and see how that works out. If not I guess I'll go farm Heart of Darkness'.

Structure
03-06-2009, 09:49 AM
Shadow Resist > drakes.

I wear 250 shadow res when doing the 10 man (we've 9 manned it, actually, but that's another story) with 3 drakes up. The burst from both breaths at the same time is ridiculous. Shadow resist takes it down soooo much. From "insta gib" to "very healable"

Aside from Fur Lining, I'm interested to know what you use for SR.

Lollo
03-16-2009, 02:54 AM
Further to Ez's question I recommend stopping attacks once your CDs are through. That way you won't get constant additional shadow damage from Twighlight Torment. By that time you should have built up enough threat to keep aggro. You can eventually resume attacks when you are on full HP.

orcstar
03-16-2009, 03:32 AM
We got strong dps and brought in a 4th tank.
I tank tenebron about where shadron lands, that way our melee can instantly switch to shadron while the ranged nukes the whelps. This way you lose less dps time on shadron.

lemysterieux
03-23-2009, 02:40 AM
Hello everyone, getting straight to the point, my guild has me appointed as the Drake tank (Warrior), DK as Sarth's tank, and a Pally for adds. We kill Tenebron just fine, the problem is when I get Shadron and Vesperon. When they both decide to Shadow Breath at the same time, it takes off a majority of my health, the breath is then followed by melee hits that finish me off. All this happens within 2 seconds (literally).

I was wondering what could be done to avoid tgetting blown up while I tanked the last 2 drakes. I have about 29.4k HP buffed after the 25% HP debuff. Besides gemming all stam, is there another way I could live through the double breath/melee?

I strongly suggest that you use 4 tanks.

We are using a DK on sarth , a paladin/warrior that grabs both tenebron and shadron, a "whatever" tank on vesperon and preferably a dk on the adds/whelps. With 4 tanks you have 2 tanks picking up adds/whelps until vesperon lands, and gives you more control when you aoe nuke whelps/adds i.e after tenebron goes down.
Having one tank that are tanking both shadron and vesperon makes it more difficult than i should be due to the fact one tank could get 2 breath's simultaneously..and probably leads to a oneshot when vesps acolyte is up.

Edit: a sidenote, if you insist in running it with 3 tanks ( with you tanking both shad and vesp ) and you continue to go down, you should not attack anything during the time vesperons acolyte is alive inside the portal due to twilight torment.

Twilight Torment1712 to 1988 Shadow damage taken upon attacking.

mictavis
03-24-2009, 10:36 AM
Successfully tanked all 3 drakes as a Warrior on both 25 and 10 man 3D. I never had any issues on 25, but going down with Shadron/Vesperon on me with both of their portal guardians up was a very big issue on 10-man 3D. Twilight torment affects you as well. Try to get as much threat as possible on shadron/vesperon as possible before twilight torment goes up. Watch your omen and stop attacking for as long as possible while torment is up . . basically just enough to not loose aggro. This will cut your incoming damage. I also wait until Shadron was at about 60% then pre-emptively pop last stand followed by shield wall as soon as last stand faded. Was also using the JC trinket and would pop the on use in that stretch as well.

Nez
03-24-2009, 10:43 AM
As mentioned by several people above, really try to watch your damage output when TT is up. If your threat is up, just stand there looking pretty. :D You want to keep your health up in case you take a double breath. Otherwise they really do not hit hard and you will be fine.

I also found making targeting macros for each of the drakes very helpful as tab targeting can be interesting with all the mobs that will be around you.

Horacio
04-09-2009, 02:51 PM
Resurrecting an old topic.

We are still having issues with Sarth 3D(25 man) and I think most of it is either general poor play or a lack of DPS. I am trying to figure out ways to get around some of this.

I am the drake tank as a warrior with best in slot gear and 32.6K unbuffed health. This comes out to around 30K with the drake debuffs and raid buffs. I can survive double breaths with timely CD uses.

Currently, I grab Tenebron as he lands and DPS unloads as soon as he's live. I tank him right where he lands with my heels in the lava to miss one flame wall and turning him to the left for the other. When Shadron lands, I have a /tar Shadron macro that I pick him up with, taunt, and heroic throw, pulling him back to where I am. This is usually enough to pull him and Tenebron has enough threat to stick to me.

Usually, I start in on Shadron and the DPS finishes off Tenebron. We blow heroism and I am tanking Shadron in the same location as where Tenebron lands. This is where we usually come up short as we will have lost people to fissures/flamewalls and an add will have gotten loose and eaten a healer.

Vesperon usually lands with Shadron about ~40% and I move close enough to taunt him but heroic throw is still on CD and he usually crosses the add tank's consecrate and peels and I have to taunt again.

I intend to have him come back to me where I am and usually get him there eventually but its a little ugly. Unfortunately, this is about where our MT dies to massive breaths. We have no DK tanks or bear tanks so the warrior is the best we have. We've about got that down now but I still wonder if there is something better I can do.

1.) Would it be viable to move from location to location, especially to Shadron so he is near the add tank and AoE can damage him and the small adds?

2.) Same for Vesperon.

3.) Like I said, we about have the Sarth tank thing down, CD rotations, Guardian Spirit, Hand of Sac, etc but would any shadow resist help him?

Thanks in advance. I think it behooves me to try something different. The bottom line is, we still have too many people around ~2500 DPS and too many people eating walls/fissures.

Risky
04-09-2009, 03:00 PM
I'd agree with you that most likely, it's people dying to avoidable stuff. An enraged add killing a healer is forgivable, but on ideal attempts you'll have no one dying to void zones or fire walls at any point in the fight.

We've tried positioning the drakes near the AoE but ultimately decided it was a pain in the ass- because as all us drake tanks know, positioning those drakes can be a real pain in the ass.

What worked best for us was having a single spriest handling AoE damage, and everyone else focus firing drakes. You said that you got Shadron to 40% before Vesperon landed, and if that was done with avoidable deaths, you've got definent potential to finish Twilight Vanquisher.

In your upcoming 3d attempts, I'd suggest running failbot and prioritizing 0 deaths to void zones and fire walls. Have someone reliable and quick on firewall calls.

One last recommendation I'd have is switching your static position from 1st drake landing spot to 2nd drake landing spot. It keeps the raid more centered near the AoE tank and healers, and ranged dps that won't pull threat can spread on the 1st Drake's side.

Oh, and for the DK maintank, if he's doing fine with cooldowns during 2&3drake phase, I wouldn't stack shadow resist. It just seems like overkill. If us warriors were trying to tank Sarth... maybe.

Beatzz
04-09-2009, 03:21 PM
We run into some of the same problems, ours are healing through TT and getting adds under control with unlucky enrages/spawns.

While tanking the drakes don't be afraid to move locations while tanking them. Depending on whether your popping hero/lust on Tenebron or on shadron, make sure they are under control.

We personally pop it on tenebron because we don't want our drake tank eating 2 breaths and blowing SW too early, its a great tool for shad and vesp.

When vesperon land's id suggest moving shadron over too pick him up. The key thing for when TT is up is making sure you dps don't kill them selves so stopping some dps or just not as intense for a few seconds isn't a HUGE deal.

Dubzil
04-09-2009, 03:24 PM
Add tanks, least ammount of tanks I've done it with: 3 <-- took many attempts
most tanks: 5 <-- 1 shot.
There's sooo much room in 25 man to add tanks, there's no reason to make 1 tank 2 drakes at the same time.

Beatzz
04-09-2009, 03:27 PM
Add tanks, least ammount of tanks I've done it with: 3 <-- took many attempts
most tanks: 5 <-- 1 shot.
There's sooo much room in 25 man to add tanks, there's no reason to make 1 tank 2 drakes at the same time.

This works if dps isn't slow and if theres enough healers to go around. From what i was reading their dps isn't the best and they have a warrior tanking sarth, so I'm guessing tanks are on the short end

Dubzil
04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
This works if dps isn't slow and if theres enough healers to go around. From what i was reading their dps isn't the best and they have a warrior tanking sarth, so I'm guessing tanks are on the short end


Raid makeup is part of what encounters are (well at least used to be) can't just take everybody, maybe get a little more strict on who you're inviting.

Beatzz
04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
My main question is, do you have a FT raiding lock that is willing to buff his VW to 90k health? because we do that and even though its not as stable as a good DK it works, quite well. This would free up a tank spot and give your dps more time to kill off the drakes.

With a warrior, CDs are limited and that means VERY strong dps. As with a DK healing CD's are less important and the dps can take a few seconds less.

Beatzz
04-09-2009, 03:31 PM
Raid makeup is part of what encounters are (well at least used to be) can't just take everybody, maybe get a little more strict on who you're inviting.

I agree, but theres a lot of lazy raiders out there and getting that comp is a lot harder then it used to be.

Risky
04-09-2009, 03:43 PM
Tanks are tanks. Backup tanks are needed when one tank can't handle it. We run 3 tanks; I tank all the drakes, and I do so in threat gear. My unbuffed hp in threat set is below 27k.

A common problem with complex fights is fixing things that are perfectly fine. I think we can all agree that if he has poor dps and is losing members to void zones and firewalls, then those would be the areas to lend the majority of your advice.

Unnecessary tanks = worse dps. Sounds like bad advice for this particular situation.

Dubzil
04-09-2009, 03:47 PM
Unnecessary tanks = worse dps. Sounds like bad advice for this particular situation.


I beg to differ.
This fight is NOT a dps race. It's long and is based on survival.
If you add a tank you split dmg done, you don't have all your healers going o'sht tank just got double-breathed, let DPS die to cast big heals on the tank.

If you add in tanks, it frees up a lot of room for your healers to heal through twilight torment, making this a pretty easy fight, along with adding adds tanks to prevent interrupted casts and dead healers.

Risky
04-09-2009, 03:56 PM
This fight is unarguably a dps race.
The raid will wipe if 1st drake remains alive when 3rd drake has landed. Hence, the fight begins as a dps race and transitions to a survivability fight. The objective is to get 1st drake down as close to 2nd drake landing as possible to save cooldowns for the twilight torment part of the fight.

Once again, I tank 2 drakes at 2 points in the fight with threat gear. I have one pally healer dedicated to me (and the melee getting aoe heals near me) and usually have 1-2 hots from a resto druid raid-healing. If you treat this fight as a dps race, I rarely have to tank 2 drakes for longer than 25 seconds, meaning I have cooldowns that will prevent my death from double-breaths. It also minimizes the amount of time the raid is tanking absurd amounts of damage. Obviously, the dps race must stop when Vesp opens his portal- but to say this fight is not a dps race is to cast a blind eye toward the first (and most important) minute and a half of the entire encounter.

Dubzil
04-09-2009, 03:59 PM
This fight is unarguably a dps race.
The raid will wipe if 1st drake remains alive when 3rd drake has landed. Hence, the fight begins as a dps race and transitions to a survivability fight. The objective is to get 1st drake down as close to 2nd drake landing as possible to save cooldowns for the twilight torment part of the fight.

Once again, I tank 2 drakes at 2 points in the fight with threat gear. I have one pally healer dedicated to me (and the melee getting aoe heals near me) and usually have 1-2 hots from a resto druid raid-healing. If you treat this fight as a dps race, I rarely have to tank 2 drakes for longer than 25 seconds, meaning I have cooldowns that will prevent my death from double-breaths. It also minimizes the amount of time the raid is tanking absurd amounts of damage. Obviously, the dps race must stop when Vesp opens his portal- but to say this fight is not a dps race is to cast a blind eye toward the first (and most important) minute and a half of the entire encounter.


This is true, I don't see it as a DPS race because 10 man or 25 man, the Tene is the easiest part of the fight, after the easy part is down (dps race part) its all survivability and this is the hardest part of the fight. I would rather weigh the raid for the hard part than the easy part.

Risky
04-09-2009, 04:07 PM
True there, and we have in the past. This is just months of trial and error. We initially did this fight with 4 tanks and none of them being DK's. Now we mostly do 1-shots using 3tanks, but we're also at the height of available gear. So while I don't completely disagree with you, I'm just trying to find some poignant advice to share for a situation like Horatio's, play a little devil's advocate in the process, and burn some more pre-Immortal raid time. ;D

Dubzil
04-09-2009, 04:16 PM
Yea, see what way works for you, I'd just recommend if you're struggling, try and add in another tank. Can have Tene up for a little longer since you won't be having to worry about a double breath, after tene's down you have another adds tank for more whelps if you get to that point.

Each group is different, find what strategy works for you and run with it

Cookie
04-09-2009, 10:22 PM
Ask all your dps to use potion of speed/insane strength potion when bloodlust is popped. Really helps get the drakes down faster ^_^

tPaste
04-10-2009, 12:39 AM
Add tanks, least ammount of tanks I've done it with: 3 <-- took many attempts
most tanks: 5 <-- 1 shot.
There's sooo much room in 25 man to add tanks, there's no reason to make 1 tank 2 drakes at the same time.

I actually like this idea to an extent. If you have dps that isn't pulling their weight and happen to have extra tanks I don't think there's any reason not to pull 1 or 2 of the lowest and put in an extra tank or two. You can always use that extra tank to split up how the drakes are handled and help pick up adds. You can also consider sacrificing a tank. I mean, it might be better than a healer or DPS...After Tenne is dead depending on how you are allocating your tanks you might be able to have a tank ready to pick up Sarth should your Sarth tank die because he ran out of cooldowns. That might buy you enough time to get you over the hump. Believe me, I know, people will tell you to "find better dps", but sometimes you're dealt the hand you're dealt and that's not really an option.

Our first kill was 3 tanks (me, a warrior, on sarth) and I only had to have one cooldown before shad was dead and sarth's breaths became manageable again, though we have done it with 4 tanks and I think we could do it with 5 tanks...

Really sometimes an extra tank to keep things locked down and under control longer can actually be better than an extra DPS...especially if that DPS is a "weak sister".