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View Full Version : Naxx 10, why did we epic fail?



AxLxExX
02-11-2009, 11:29 PM
So our group was:
MT - Heroic geared warrior
OT - Naxx10-ish geared warrior
Heal - naxx10/naxx25 priest
Heal - 2100 SP resto shaman
DPS - mage/lock/tg warr/dk/spriest/hunter

Overall the TG warrior and hunter were lacking in DPS.

Anub'rekhan = Wiped once. Tank didn't know where to tank. Second attempt MT died and we killed with 3 left alive at the end.

Faerlina - Wiped twice, ended up blazing through enraged and getting the achievement.

Maexxna - Wiped once, second time MT died as well as most of the raid. 2 people left at the end, the DK and a spriest that kept him alive.

Patchwerk - 3 attempts. First got him to 50%, then hateful tank died, then everyone else. Second, patch 1 shot hateful tank within a half second of the fight starting, the rest followed. Third attempt, got to 75 percent then hateful tank died. The rest followed.


After typing this it's clear we were in need of healing, but other than that...I don't understand...

TG warr sucked. hunter sucked.
heals sucked.
Can it really be that simple?

Niian
02-11-2009, 11:34 PM
If the hunter and warrior DPS suck, swap them.
In 10mans, having 1/4th of your group failing will more often than not cause a shitstorm, or constant wipes.
Look at getting a 3rd healer too, if your two are having troubles keeping the tanks alive. However if they are already in Naxx10/25 man, or at 2.1k healing they shouldn't be having ANY troubles.

Bookie
02-11-2009, 11:39 PM
I would imagine that if 2/6 DPS sucks and there are healing issues, that could be a problem. What sort DPS were the warrior and the hunter dealing?

Also, were the deaths due to healers oom, burst death, etc?

If healers are running out of mana, it could be either low dps, too much damage taken by the tanks (or the raid), poor mana management from the healers, or any combination of those things.

AxLxExX
02-11-2009, 11:43 PM
However if they are already in Naxx10/25 man, or at 2.1k healing they shouldn't be having ANY troubles.

That's exactly what I'm saying!

So the new group we're bringing in sunday will be:

MT - Same
OT - Same
Heal - Same priest
Heal - A beast of a holy pally. He's a crazy amazing healer for our 25s
Heal - Beast of a resto druid. he's a monster
DPS - naxx10 geared elesham, the monster DK, the spriest, mage, lock.

All the dps can easily pull over 2k, all 3 healers are completely competant. Tanks were having no threat issues.

I hope that works..

Niian
02-11-2009, 11:44 PM
A holy pally really helps for patch. Beacon MT and just FoL spam the OT and it's win.
Or even HL spam now!

Krulhull
02-12-2009, 12:15 AM
What were the healing assignments, if you know?

For example, a holy paladin probably isn't the most optimal choice for raid healing (not saying it can't be done, but I hear it's tricky). You'd want the holy pally on the MT/OT with Beacon of Light while the Druid does raid healing.

You've probably got it set up like this already, but just a thought...

AxLxExX
02-12-2009, 12:16 AM
pally does beacon, other 2 healers work it out. I gave up as a raid leader. I'm not patient or confident enough in my knowledge of the bosses to do it.

Eide
02-12-2009, 12:20 AM
I can't and will not comment on the performance of your raidmembers. that's up to you, however, a few thing strike me as odd.

Healage:
2 Healers is most often plenty for Naxx, specially if you have a nice class spread (like a Priest/Shaman setup). If they are on the ball with their heals, and aren't utter Spellpower junkies at the expensive of regen and such that should be fine.

Tanks:
You commented on Heroic Geared tank and Naxx 10-ish Offtank. While many people are stating that gear is a non-issue, that not completly true. What I've noticed among Heroic geared tanks is that they concentrate fully on getting to 540 defense, they often sacrifice a lot of avoidance for that. That shouldn't be an issue for the OT though. Also you stated that Patch oneshotted the Hateful tank. That can only happen if 1) That tank has relatively low HP and/or 2) The other tank was out of position/range so the Hateful tank was soaking both normal and hateful hits from Patch.

DPS:
What do you guys consider failing at DPS, and what's decent DPS, assuming Patchwork as a benchmark? Of course the easy solution is not to invite the warrior and hunter back, but have you considered taking a look at their spec and/or gear and helping them along a bit? Even if they're not awesome right now doesn't mean they can't become an asset in the future.

Nuberino
02-12-2009, 10:13 AM
I am curious at what is considered failing dps? My guild's first night in Naxx downed 7 bosses (in December) with most of the dps doing less than 1500dps on each fight - no one having been in naxx before.

None of the first 4 wings tax the healers really, if everyone is doing their job. In fact I don't think any of the fights in the first 4 wings are gear dependent at all outside of the bare minimum of having the dps to beat enrage timers. (easily done in heroic/crafted gear)

Personally I think it is way to easy to blame "this or that" when it usually relies on people just not really being that good of players. Not being able to switch targets, paying attention to debuffs, avoiding standing in the fire, etc.

Abel
02-13-2009, 07:20 AM
Anub'rekhan = Wiped once. Tank didn't know where to tank. Second attempt MT died and we killed with 3 left alive at the end.

- Is it hard to tell your MT to just run around in a semi-circle on the outside of the room when the locust swarm is inc?

Faerlina - Wiped twice, ended up blazing through enraged and getting the achievement.

- Because killing an add during the enrages is hard. I've OT'd and practically kept them all at about 20% (and I was yelled at my raid lead to not have him go any lower) by the time she enraged in little to no naxx gear. Your healers were obviously on their game if they healed through the enrage.

Maexxna - Wiped once, second time MT died as well as most of the raid. 2 people left at the end, the DK and a spriest that kept him alive.

- I'd guess your group need to handle the adds better. They were probably borking the healers.

Patchwerk - 3 attempts. First got him to 50%, then hateful tank died, then everyone else. Second, patch 1 shot hateful tank within a half second of the fight starting, the rest followed. Third attempt, got to 75 percent then hateful tank died. The rest followed.

- Healers were ZZZing or the tank is undergeared (or unskilled about how to gear), patch is far too easy to have the HS tank die. If your OT gets one shotted by patch he's obviously not geared properly.


Seemed like you had some serious off tank and main tank problems.

blade86sam
02-13-2009, 07:26 AM
1500dps.. for 80 is considered fail dps to a certain extent...

even tho 1400dps is the bare minimum dps to enter naxx n to clear probably 1-2 wings.. you will not be able to clear whole thing (duh! lol) since military n esspecially abom wing require a substancial higher dps output then the other wings, imo probably minimum 1.8k+ but id recommend 2k+

another thing is if some ur players r lacking some gear n could use upgrades from heroics and/or some norm dif lvl 80 instances then id recommend upgrading sum of the gear.

But then again gear isnt always everything, imo skill > gear (to a certain extent).
Being able to move out of the bad stuff and go in the good stuff type thing. (fire,black holes, rain (blizzard.. lol) = bad // charges like on thad (+ n -), or sparks on maly = good.

Also if some of ur dps are having difficulties bringing up their dps because their skill rotation isnt optimized, then, by all means, if u can help them out, do so :). Reason i say this is because i have a friend who just turned 80 n was wearing some lvl 76-78 gear n some lvl 70 epics and was able to pull 1.8k dps while another 80 of same class n spec was pulling 1.5k and his gear was all naxx10/25 gear.

also just for laughs.. ive seen some 80s not being able to pull more then 1.1k dps.. let alone some were at around 850-980dps.. lol xD
(i did 1.2k at lvl 70.. as a frost mage.. i did peak out 2k dps on supremus tho :P frost works well on him *cough* 1.1s cast frostbolt *cough* :))

Fledern
02-13-2009, 09:41 AM
Our TG warrior did 1800 dps in naxx10 the day after he dinged 80 (1-2 heroic pieces). A week later he was doing 3000+ dps. Skill (includes knowhow) > gear. (he did 5600 on thaddius in 2 weeks)

Are you putting the bettergeared tank as hateful tank? That solved a ton of problems when we were first starting out.

Priest MC on faerlina enrage = win. Easy with 2

AxLxExX
02-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Better geared tank is on hatefuls. I was on Patch.

macfeagle
02-20-2009, 09:28 PM
Could be strat issues or sleepy healers or who knows what. Might just be normal learning curve.

When tanking Maexxna during the enrage, the healers should be okay until you get a combination of web spray + enrage. DBM will tell you exactly what is happening, and a second or so before that happens you pop shield wall or whatever other cooldown the tank's class gets.

There should be no need to do two web sprays during Maexxna, and that's the only real "I'm going to die" moment in the fight if people are performing.

Simple things like the tank not knowing when to shield wall can create problems there.

Patchwerk can be Tank/Healer gear or healer strat, and possibly OT threat.

Anub is healer awareness, and possibly tanking issues. If healers have adds on them, they have no responsibility for any subsequent problems. During the locust swarm, the tank can do stuff to try to survive, and some combination of the tank not doing any of that, doing the wrong stuff, or the healers being weak or sleepy or doing the wrong stuff can cause problems.

The first few trips to Anub I tried to intervene out and ran like hell to try to reduce total stacks of the healing debuf. Now I just stand there and some combination of tank/healer gear + less raid stupid keeps me up. You can also last stand there when the stacks get intense.

There is learning curve in Naxx, and if you have a raid full of new people go in there you can get borked on any number of bosses in there. If your raid can maintain patience you'll get through that and be farming it shortly.

Try to get in 25's though. Even a crappy 25 will gear you better than a 10 that's farming.