View Full Version : paladin vs dk tank on sapphiron
02-09-2009, 07:22 AM
So last week, I had following situation:
raid leader wanted to let the dk tank sapphiron on heroic mode. His gear consisted of crafted epics and a few blues. Now he had about 1k hp more than me, but I had way more avoidance(he had 50%, I had 59,90%) in addition to the ability to block. I'm block capped. I am almost fully heroic raid geared. I waited like 25 seconds, then started very carefully with dpsing as I know I can dish out some decent threat on undead bosses. Like 10 seconds later, I overaggrod the dk. Apparently I had also forgotten to remove my rf, hence I gained aggro. I'm not used to be totally useless on a boss fight. But I waited so long and still gained aggro in such a short timespan.
So I got two questions,
1. are death knights better on sapphiron as they got better magic damage reductions than paladins? Imo, the physical damage from sapphiron is a bigger threat than the magical damage from his special abilities to the tank.
2. was the raid leader's decision justified, considering the death knight's gear?
02-09-2009, 07:32 AM
There are too many variables in that. Yes gear does play a role but so does spec. If your DK tank is Frost w/ Acclimation. I don't really see that as justification. Now if he is Unholy w/ the improved Anti-Magic Shell and Bone Shield. Then he may have more dmg mitigation than yourself. at a little over 40% avoidance with glyph of boneshield. Your shield is up for quite a decent amount of time allowing you to hit Ice Bound Fortitude, Bone Shield, Ice Bound Fortitude, Bone Shield. For a bit of dancing around he will have 100% uptime of mitigation between Bone shield and Fortitude coupled w/ the Anti-Magic Shell on a reduced CD.
That may be justification.
Now personally I usually let a sword/board tank take up the single boss (no adds) fights. Simply because I can put on my DPS set and serve the raid as a whole better by adding to the DPS (whereas a Prot Warrior/Pally, doesn't fare so well in the DPS side of things as so many talent points are used in your specs).
Note: except for Patchwerk. lol. then I need my Tank set on. and it's a toss up as to who is MT and who eats Hatefuls
02-09-2009, 07:32 AM
I probably wouldn't have put the DK as the tank to that fight due to their gear/avoidance numbers. However that 50% you quoted would that be including a DK's Bladebarrier that increases avoidance by another 10% and natural miss chance?
1. An armory might be helpful to figure out how the dk is spec'd. As far as the mitigation for physical goes, depending on spec DKs have a few abilities on short cooldowns that help to make that less of a problem.
2. I can understand that maybe the raid leader wanted to give the DK a chance to try tanking to get a grasp of the encounter as its not much different in 25 than it is in 10. If you have Saph on 25 on "farm" the RL might have figured he could plug anyone in there and that the healers would have no problem keeping him up.
DKs make really crappy tanks on Saph just for the main reason he has a high resist to frost. This would affect an unholy DK less than a frost one, but even still, I told my RL no when he tried to assign me to the fight. I refuse to tank this fight unless I am the only tank/best geared option as I can barely pull 3K TPS on him due to all the resists.
The reason you jacked is for the reasons above. A bad parry/resist string can cripple the DKs threat. I mean, the RL might have been trying the DK out or just trying to spread the tanking duties arround (the case for me here) but DKs are just a poor choice here. You serve the raid much better by doing whatever crap DPS you can.
02-09-2009, 08:33 AM
DK's make excellent tanks for Sapphiron due to their cooldowns. A good DK can time his cooldown so they are up when Sapphiron is down vice versa when Sapphiron is up. Just for comparison my DK takes 40% less damage on Sapphiron than our similarly geared Paladin tank. This is because of pretty close to 100% uptime for some combination of Bone Shield, Icebound fortitude, AMS and AMZ.
Since Malygos spends less percentage of time in the air as compared to Sapphiron the comparison may be skewed but I think the DK advantage is still substantial. I can't comment much on threat since Malygos threat issues are hugley different than Sapphiron ones.
02-09-2009, 09:41 AM
In my guild the tanks share the work. I have had no problem as a frost DK on Sapphiron and our druid tank has no issues either. I don't have any issues with threat on Sapphiron. I find that my long CDs can be timed without any real effort. Tanking him is less effort than being melee DPS on him.
As for the pala question I can't really comment (I have a DK tank and previously played a prot warrior) however reading between the lines you seam frustrated and to be in competition with the other tank. Perhaps a more co-operative approach where you split the bosses in a way where you each get to enjoy the fights by mixing things up would be more rewarding.
These Class X versus Class Y threads have no simple answers because the variables are two great. Choose the player not the class. Better still choose to enjoy the raid :)
Naxx 10 and 25 don't have any fights that demand a single class or spec.