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Ciderhelm
02-03-2009, 05:51 AM
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Sartharion's Drakes & Acolytes
Sartharion three drakes provide these buffs while they are still alive:


Tenebron: 100% additional Shadow damage. We consider this important because our drake tank can take considerable shadow damage if he takes the breath from two drakes at a time.
Shadron: 100% additional Fire damage. This is incredibly dangerous if your tank is taking Sartharion's breath. Shadron's Acolyte, while alive, is a passive 50% additional fire damage taken.
Vesperon: 25% reduced Health. Vesperon's Acolyte, while alive, is a passive 75% additional damage from Sartharion's breath, as well as the Twilight Torment debuff, which causes reactive damage to raiders on their outgoing attacks.



Healing (Courtesy Kalani)
Sarth tank: 2 healers. Preferably Priest(Disc) and Pally
Drake tank: 1 main healer and 1 raid/tank healer
Add tank: 1 main healer and 1 raid/tank healer
Raid/Portal tank: 1 healer

The Sarth tank healers stand to the right of the tank.
Drake healers stand to the left of Sarth's left leg in the center near add tanks.
Add tank healers stand stand to the left of Sarth's left leg in the center near add tanks.

Now some tips for making healer jobs easier:
1. Priest(s): prioritize "Guardian Spirit" for tanks.
2. Priest(s): discipline spec is good for reducing Sarth tank damage.
3. Paladin(s): "Righteous Fury" to grab a majority of the healing aggro to make add tank job easier.
4. Paladin(s): "Holy Light" glyphs are good for raid healing with beacons on tanks.
5. Paladin(s): "Beacon of Light" on tanks and/or the "Righteous Fury" healing paladin.
6. Paladin(s): "Sacred Shield" on tanks.
7. Paladin(s): "Divine Shield" with "Divine Guardian" spec'd for accidental breaths.
8. Druid(s) instants saved for tanks or healers.

Everything else from other healers is self explanatory. Just know your classhttp://www.tankspot.com/forums/../images/smilies/wink.gif.

Pruke
02-03-2009, 05:52 AM
Thank you for the work, I look forward to checking it out when it's ready!

Ray
02-03-2009, 06:30 AM
OMGOSH, so excited!! Cant wait.

Reach
02-03-2009, 06:44 AM
Very cool video, good job Cider.

Barfolomew
02-03-2009, 06:44 AM
Great video, can't wait for the HD version.

I liked how well you illustrated the safe zones on the edges of the island. My melee DPS has had a hard time understanding where these spots are, and now I have a reliable source to send them to so they can not get hit by the lava wall and complain "there's no way to get back to the middle in time!!"

This is a great fight, filled with the complexity and coordination we've come to expect from Blizz in their end game content.

Congrats on your title!! And now waiting for Ulduar begins...

Ciderhelm
02-03-2009, 06:53 AM
Updated w/ the non-HD version. I can't believe how hard reds are hit w/ encoding, so as the original post suggests, make sure to watch it again in HD.

Skyborn
02-03-2009, 06:57 AM
FYI Cider, typo in your timeline.

1. Sartharion pulled and positioned.

Ciderhelm
02-03-2009, 07:22 AM
FYI Cider, typo in your timeline.

1. Sartharion pulled and positioned.
Thanks! Fixed!

Adanel
02-03-2009, 07:22 AM
Nice idea with the taunting thing thanks for sharing. Do you had problems with taunting timing with the sart tank causing repositioning problems or with taunting and still getting breathed?

It's a great strat for guilds without the DPS to kill Shadron before Vesperon lands with the changes to twilight torment, will help a lot of people with problems with the encounter.

Rukrow
02-03-2009, 07:32 AM
very nice work as always, we have downed him several weeks in a row now. how ever this seems like a new way of doing things and i for one will be giving it a go this week. Very innovative would of never though of using taunts on sarth to avoid breaths. Make that Dk tank go aoe tank whelps thats his job!

Xav
02-03-2009, 07:35 AM
Pretty clever strategy thanks to all these taunt changes! I'm actually hoping nothing of this sort is possible in Ulduar and such, but here it's cool. I didn't expect you to be the specific tank in your raid to do this type of role though, wasting all that pretty in plate.

Myko
02-03-2009, 07:52 AM
I don't fully understand. Casting mobs don't change targets if they are taunted mid-cast, are you saying they turn around but not change target?

Xav
02-03-2009, 08:27 AM
I don't fully understand. Casting mobs don't change targets if they are taunted mid-cast, are you saying they turn around but not change target?

Sartharion works differently it seems, and several other mobs do. I believe if it's not a specifically targetted ability, you can face them wherever and the spell will go the direction they're facing, as it actually emanates outward from them in a set direction.

Example is Sartharion's breath is a large cone of fire out from his face, so if his face changes direction, it will shoot the other way.

Different behaviour contrasting to that would be Kel'Thuzad's frostbolt. If he starts channeling on someone and then is taunted, the frostbolt target is still on the original target, and doesn't switch.

A very literal and easy way to understand is to emulate it as a player. Take a fire mage specced for Dragon's Breath (how coincidentally useful). Let's make him a boss mob. He likes to channel fireballs at you repeatedly. The fireball will always hit the target he was looking at when he started the cast, even if taunted. You can run around, spin him around, flail about, and it'll always hit you.

Now lets say sometimes Boss Fire Mage likes to throw in a Dragon's Breath now and then as his "special". As long as his target is sitting there in front of him, it'll always be hit by the Dragon's Breath (and anyone else close by). But if he turns around, or you run him around a corner or something and he still wants to use the dragon's breath, he'll just shoot it out in front of him regardless of what he's facing or where you are, which could hit all kinds of targets, or none at all.

A realistic example of that as an actual boss would be Grobbulus, which people may more commonly see, and now Sartharion if you use this taunting strategy.

Cacciatore
02-03-2009, 08:47 AM
Is this strategy viable for 10 man encounter, and if so what group makeup do you use as far as 2 tanks 2 heals 6 dps, 3 tanks 3 heals 4 dps etc?

Tonylicious
02-03-2009, 08:52 AM
I was actually surprised it worked this way when I saw it happen last night in our 3d10man kill.

I had always assumed that the boss needed a target for this and it was determined when the cast began, likely the same mechanic for Malygos but much less useful... I've never seen Grobbulus slime the raid during a mutating injection or when hes repositioning which is probably part of what fueled my incorrect assumption (since even if hes targeting someone else he still slimes me).

Very interesting though.

Ezimodnar
02-03-2009, 09:25 AM
Quick question on your tanking setup. Obviously yourself and your feral are dealing with Sartharion himself, but how many of the remaining three are use for the drakes and adds?

As another note. Is it only me that for some reason with the narated version has some extreme amount of static rather than the actual speach used in the video? I'm seen this problem as of late for a few other things as well so it's most likely a problem on my end, but I can't figure that out.

Second edit.

It appears I only have this problem when played on Windows Media Player.

Ghladum
02-03-2009, 10:06 AM
I just can't even imagine how hard this is with a 10-man group.

Bran
02-03-2009, 10:07 AM
My guild just had our first OS10 run last night, which was very exciting, but this. was. awesome!

One question I had, you mentioned putting vigilance on the Sarth tank in order to help you control adds, or least that's how it sounded, I've only had a chance to watch once.
How does that work? Is it along the lines of gaining threat with a whole pack of linked mobs by attacking one? Either way, if I heard that right, it's a huge tip for me. The one time I add tanked in a pug, I felt like I sucked it up pretty hard.

Also, it looked like you purposely jumped in the magma a couple times, even though it seemed like the edges of the island were safe zones. Was this to avoid the breath after you had taunted Sarth, or was there something else going on there?

Kavtor
02-03-2009, 10:14 AM
One question I had, you mentioned putting vigilance on the Sarth tank in order to help you control adds, or least that's how it sounded, I've only had a chance to watch once.
How does that work? Is it along the lines of gaining threat with a whole pack of linked mobs by attacking one? Either way, if I heard that right, it's a huge tip for me.

It's not the threat component, but the taunt refresh that makes the difference. Being able to taunt basically every 2 seconds makes cleaning up adds pretty simple.

Gnurken
02-03-2009, 10:24 AM
Isn't using taunt in this fashon some sort of exploit, or at least un-intended. Wasn't Brutallus fixed for the same reason? They may extend the range of the breath.

I tank Sartharion as prot war and they burn Shadron so fast that I use Shieldwall on first breath and if breaths are too fast and dps slack we have setup a rotation of guardian spirit and Hand of Protection from my healers. Last kill it was enough with shieldwall, DKs needed, ya right ;)

Angry Grimace
02-03-2009, 10:30 AM
Isn't using taunt in this fashon some sort of exploit, or at least un-intended. Wasn't Brutallus fixed for the same reason? They may extend the range of the breath.

I tank Sartharion as prot war and they burn Shadron so fast that I use Shieldwall on first breath and if breaths are too fast and dps slack we have setup a rotation of guardian spirit and Hand of Protection from my healers. Last kill it was enough with shieldwall, DKs needed, ya right ;)
I can't see remotely how Taunt is an exploit. Blizzard has pretty much officially moved away from untauntable mobs, with a very small number of exceptions.

Bran
02-03-2009, 10:31 AM
It's not the threat component, but the taunt refresh that makes the difference. Being able to taunt basically every 2 seconds makes cleaning up adds pretty simple.

Aha! Having only run Heroics, where it isn't really needed, and single-target stuff like Vault 10/25, I had completely forgotten about that effect of Vigilance!

Helsing
02-03-2009, 10:32 AM
Quick question on your tanking setup. Obviously yourself and your feral are dealing with Sartharion himself, but how many of the remaining three are use for the drakes and adds?
I'll be going into more detail once I get a healing write up.
One(warrior)tank has drakes, one(warrior)tank has adds. We had a DK helping with adds and it became much easier to deal with them.

Gnurken
02-03-2009, 10:39 AM
I can't see remotely how Taunt is an exploit. Blizzard has pretty much officially moved away from untauntable mobs, with a very small number of exceptions.

You misunderstand, everything is tauntable now, that's not the issue.
Back in the day some people used paladins to do this kind of thing with Brutallus making his mechanic of the stacking slashes neglible.

This removes the huge breath issue with some clever use of ingame mechanics and don't suprised if Blizz adds some breathrange to Sartharion just as they did to Brutallus.

Petersin
02-03-2009, 11:41 AM
Why so much editing? Are you hiding something?
Our DPS got decimated when our drake tank went down. There's no way of overstating that. The kill took us 15 minutes and YouTube only accepts 10 minute movies. If you want to watch the whole thing, I'll have it up on Filefront (and, of course, it's up here on TankSpot for Donors).


Why would losing 1/10th of your DPSers cause the fight to take so much longer? O.o

/smartass

Man▀earpig
02-03-2009, 11:48 AM
Why would losing 1/10th of your DPSers cause the fight to take so much longer? O.o

/smartass


So much longer than what? It is a long fight to begin with, the 10 min restriction isn't self imposed. It is a youtube thing. That isn't to say that it cant be done faster but I would say that 15 min is a good length.

Wreckface
02-03-2009, 12:27 PM
You couldn't by chance be able to post a WWS from one of your guild's three drakes kill, or could you?

Cacciatore
02-03-2009, 12:52 PM
Isn't using taunt in this fashon some sort of exploit, or at least un-intended. Wasn't Brutallus fixed for the same reason? They may extend the range of the breath.

I tank Sartharion as prot war and they burn Shadron so fast that I use Shieldwall on first breath and if breaths are too fast and dps slack we have setup a rotation of guardian spirit and Hand of Protection from my healers. Last kill it was enough with shieldwall, DKs needed, ya right ;)

Finding a way to approach a boss that the developers did not foresee using abilities they are not abusing in an unintended way is not an exploit. There's nothing that defies the games mechanics when two tanks cast taunts. They are neither negating themselves from the possibility of harm or error, or influencing Sarth's ability to use his attack. If someone happened to be in the way behind Sarth they would still be hit. If the attack were meant to be unavoidable then it would be a focused attack, not directional cone.

Gnurken
02-03-2009, 01:06 PM
If the attack were meant to be unavoidable then it would be a focused attack, not directional cone.

That's just not true, again back to Brutallus, Cone attack, meant to be unavoidable. Cone attacs that are avoidable are when the boss is stationary during the attack. Like last boss in Utgarde Keep. Sartharion tracks the highest aggro during the cast of the breath and follows if you run or turn.

Would like to hear from Ciderhelm if there was any discussions in guild when this was discovered if it was right to use it.

tPaste
02-03-2009, 02:09 PM
Finding a way to approach a boss that the developers did not foresee using abilities they are not abusing in an unintended way is not an exploit. There's nothing that defies the games mechanics when two tanks cast taunts. They are neither negating themselves from the possibility of harm or error, or influencing Sarth's ability to use his attack. If someone happened to be in the way behind Sarth they would still be hit. If the attack were meant to be unavoidable then it would be a focused attack, not directional cone.
I'm with Gnurken. Calling this an exploit is strong, to be sure. Though that doesn't mean they won't change the distance on the breaths to prevent this strat going forward. If the Devs want to force players to deal with the high damage of the breaths (much like they wanted to force players to deal with the healing intensive brutallus slashes) they will find away.

I first watched this video and really really liked the strat. My guild is currently working on Sarth 3D and are close to getting it...though we do have MT deaths sometimes. I briefly considered bringing this approach up to my guild to try it out...but after reading the feedback and thinking about it more I don't think we should for fear that eventually a Brutallus-like change could become reality and we might have to learn the fight all over again (doing it basically exactly as we're attempting to now). It's an awesome video but it'd probably take several attempts for our group to get use to (as Cider's guild positions him differently than we do, and practice getting the taunts off properly, etc...). I think we'd lose half a night adopting a new strat at this point and really we know the strat we've got will work, we've been working on him long enough we just want to down him already.

tPaste
02-03-2009, 02:12 PM
My biggest question is this:

Using this strat, is there anything we would need to be concerned about with the MT/MT Healers in regard to Sarth's tail swipe? Or is it just never an issue?

I could see a case where MT gets stunned and is unable to taunt back and since the Taunt Tank is potentially out of range of heals getting gibbed.

Powhound
02-03-2009, 02:15 PM
Tough call here. Firstly I'd say it is a creative solution to the breathes that Blizzard probably didn't anticipate when they changed taunt mechanics.

When things like this happen I think it rests on Blizzard to step up and make a statement or change the mechanics of his breath. Of course, I'm sure many of us saw these types of things coming after ranged taunts were added. Not exactly sure why they did in the first place. Anyone have reference to why they did?

If this is considered an exploit then what about the hunter distracting shot rotation on Razuvious? No one knows for sure but Blizzard probably never thought about that possibility and they haven't done anything to fix it.

Rhyseh
02-03-2009, 02:29 PM
Nice strat, very creative I never would have thought of doing Sarth this way.

Ciderhelm
02-03-2009, 03:47 PM
Isn't using taunt in this fashon some sort of exploit, or at least un-intended. Wasn't Brutallus fixed for the same reason? They may extend the range of the breath.

It's not an exploit. There's a good argument to be made that it may be unintended since Twilight Torment dancing was removed, and we'll find out next patch whether that's the case.

I'm not terribly concerned for a few reasons, though.

First, this strategy takes two tanks to do what one tank (Death Knight) was already capable of. If you want a tank other than a Death Knight to handle Sartharion and eat the breaths, you're already cycling abilities like Guardian Spirit -- which causes you to take a breath and die, then get a freebie saving heal. That doesn't strike me as much different than having a player dedicated to taunting him to avoid breaths we know will kill our tank.

Second, this shifts responsibility and adds complexity rather than removing it. We already have a lineup of players ready to Guardian Spirit, Divine Shield w/ Divine Guardian, Sacrifice, etc., to cycle abilities on our tank, and we use most of these in this video. The taunt strategy is a redundancy with failsafes, like many of our strategies.

Finally, this has always been possible to do via a Taunt/Intervene macro or a quick Hunter shot (Hunters naturally outrange Sartharion).

It may very well be unintended. The strategy is not so different, however, that we're going to suddenly be unable to kill him if they change his breath range, since we can do essentially the same thing with a Death Knight taunting and cycling cooldowns, or just continue as-is using only cooldowns from other classes to keep Manbear alive.


Keep in mind, for every Brutallus, you can also point to a Chromaggus or Firemaw, where the strategy was specifically to avoid abilities and most guilds assumed it was exploiting because it had never been done before.



Why would losing 1/10th of your DPSers cause the fight to take so much longer? O.o

/smartass

//edit: halp!

Satrina
02-03-2009, 04:00 PM
The smartass is pedantically referring to your use of the word decimate to describe heavy losses (which is now a commonly accepted definition, but only recently) ;)

Krashtork
02-03-2009, 04:02 PM
Hats off to you Cider, seeing a video of the fight really shows just how complex it is. My head is still spinning a bit.

Ciderhelm
02-03-2009, 04:03 PM
The smartass is pedantically referring to your use of the word decimate to describe heavy losses (which is now a commonly accepted definition, but only recently) ;)
When I originally used the word, I actually was using it in the correct context. Sleep made me forget this. :p

Saying this since decimate can also mean to bring down to 10%. Bit of hyperbole, but we were probably only at 30% DPS output after that.

Nunes
02-03-2009, 05:31 PM
Just throwing this out there, but my rogues guild runs 3 tanks, 5-6 healers, 16-17 dps and we kill Tenebron before Shadron lands, and Shadron is *usually* dead if not at most 5% left when Vesperon lands.

Kasath
02-03-2009, 06:31 PM
Wow.

Taunting him to avoid the breath is brilliant.

My guild hasn't gotten this achievement yet, we're having problems keeping our Sarth tank alive after Vesp lands; your method will make beating him much easier.

I've gotta say, it wouldn't surprise me if this gets nerfed, and we log in one day to find Sarth untauntable.

Continentel
02-04-2009, 04:29 AM
Was there a link provided to the filefront page with the whole movie on it, or did I missed that?

Sylnir
02-04-2009, 04:30 AM
Heya,

First of all thanks a lot for all the great videos, I've been a fan for a while now.

I have an idea re: the taunting method I'd like to bounce off people.

We're going to be trying out 25-man 3D this week and are intending on bringing 3 tanks, 4 at the outside.

How do we feel about a holy pally filling Cider's role in this vid? We now have a single-target ranged taunt, can heal ourselves up if we have an elemental or two on us 'til they get picked up and could spend the time in between taunts healing the tank.

Thoughts?

Ciderhelm
02-04-2009, 04:31 AM
Heya,

First of all thanks a lot for all the great videos, I've been a fan for a while now.

I have an idea re: the taunting method I'd like to bounce off people.

We're going to be trying out 25-man 3D this week and are intending on bringing 3 tanks, 4 at the outside.

How do we feel about a holy pally filling Cider's role in this vid? We now have a single-target ranged taunt, can heal ourselves up if we have an elemental or two on us 'til they get picked up and could spend the time in between taunts healing the tank.

Thoughts?
We were just discussing this tonight. A Holy Paladin would make an excellent stand-in

Ray
02-04-2009, 05:43 AM
Heya,

First of all thanks a lot for all the great videos, I've been a fan for a while now.

I have an idea re: the taunting method I'd like to bounce off people.

We're going to be trying out 25-man 3D this week and are intending on bringing 3 tanks, 4 at the outside.

How do we feel about a holy pally filling Cider's role in this vid? We now have a single-target ranged taunt, can heal ourselves up if we have an elemental or two on us 'til they get picked up and could spend the time in between taunts healing the tank.

Thoughts?

You dont have to limit it to anyone really. Hell, you could have a DPS war, kitty druid, resto druid, ret or holy pally do it. Just would have to be a good and well trusted player really.

To me, im on the fence with this being an exploit or not. The problem is that everything is tauntable now, which I personally hate, so you cant really call it an exploit as blizz in all there great wisdom made this possible. It is certainly a very cool idea but it just feels like a gimmick that will be hot fixed. But time will tell

Wulfax
02-04-2009, 06:01 AM
Thanks for the great vid, I'm able to (somewhat) piece together a way this could be done in the 10-man version, though there are alot of things that I'm sure would work differently. My guild hasn't got the numbers to run anything on 25 yet, so we're stuck in 10's but from what I gather, the 10 version of this is significantly more difficult than the 25. Is there a chance we might see a vid of 10 at some point? My guild is still having trouble with lag and disconnects, so much that even just a single drake up hasn't happened yet, though not for lack of trying. We'll wipe 6 or 7 times before we eventually call it and just bring down the drake then kill Sarth. Thanks again for all the instructional vids!

Yakra
02-04-2009, 07:20 AM
Awesome video.

My guild spent 26 attempts last night working this, and its looking to be what is going to take us the distance.

We were using a Ret Paladin as our stand in taunter - mostly because he had tons of hit, so the chance of taunt was lower (as opposed to holy paladin).

bludwork
02-04-2009, 09:14 AM
Yea my experience with blizzard is they will "fix" it, maybe not immediately but ninja fix stuff like this like they always do.

However the main difficulty of the fights are not the breaths, it's Shadron+Vesperon acolyte debuffs and enraged adds, lava strikes and stupid people; it doesn't change regardless of which strat you use.

Some other notes
-5 tanks? you must be packing some hardcore dps :)
-that tank death would have been a sure wipe for us. We normally use 3 tanks
-you got hunters that can actually md!? When we do 3d I have to be in the landing position and aggro them myself sigh :(

Mwawka
02-04-2009, 09:55 AM
Just signed up so I could respond to this thread.

How on earth can anyone call this an exploit. They came up with a unique and creative strategy on how to use their abilities and the landscape of the battle to defeat the boss. This is what Warcraft should be about. Using your own brain to find a way to beat a boss rather than opening up a web page and reading how to do it. I for one congratulate them on coming up with a strategy that works and hope Blizzard isn't so short sighted as to think they have to change the mechanics because it is not what they intended. I guarantee this does not make it an easy fight. Who knows, maybe Blizzard did intend for this to be an option to those who were smart enough to come up with the strategy.

stabbington
02-04-2009, 11:13 AM
Have you ever had a taunt resist using this particular strategy? I definitely like it better than the cooldown rotation we're using now.

Man▀earpig
02-04-2009, 11:17 AM
Glyphs that increase taunt % make it a non issue for warriors but unfortunately Feral Druid "Growl" is still considered a spell for hit and therefore takes the 17% miss chance instead of 8%.

My taunt failed a couple times but Cider was easily able to take a couple melee hits until my cd was up again.

Ray
02-04-2009, 11:29 AM
Cider,

A few additional questions I had.

1. How did you handle controling the number of blazes you had? with all the cuts in the edit I couldnt really tell how you kept the number of blazes under control

2. Did you find the position of sarth where you did troublesome at all? With cleaves or tail wipes? Also, where did the MT healers position during the fight? Where they just with the raid or put some where else?

thanks for the video again.

Gertiploiss
02-04-2009, 12:24 PM
A few questions:

1. Have you tried this on 10-man.
2. What is the minimum dps and minimum tank health for guilds attempting this?
3. What would you rather have as a raid composition? You say it was a little bad with 6-7 healers 5 tanks.

Mwawka
02-04-2009, 01:00 PM
Gnurken, there is a huge difference between cheating and what was done here. They defeated Sarth with 3 drakes in a fair manner within the mechanics of the game. I commend them for coming up with a solution within that framework. To compare this with commending someone who cheats is a ludicrous jump in logic. There is always someone who likes to demean the achievements of others by flexing their muscles and saying "I did it the hard way, and I'm proud of that", but usually it is just a case of frustration because they did not think of the easier solution themselves. As I said previously, how do you know that this is not how the fight was meant to go. Maybe they intended for that damage to be avoided and for a party not to succeed unless it was diverted. Maybe you did it the 'wrong' way. If they change the mechanics of the fight, then I am quite sure Ciderhelm's guild will come up with an alternate way to do it.

Wapner
02-04-2009, 01:27 PM
We tried this strategy last night. We only brought 3 tanks (DK on Sarth, Warrior on Drakes, Paladin on adds). We had a DPS Warrior doing the taunting like Cider did in the video. It worked great. We are consistently getting to Vesperon with no deaths, and minimal healing on the Sarth tank. Which is better than we did before with the old strat.

We are going back in tonight and having our Holy Paladins spec for DG so that we can get past the point where Vesperon lands. Once we do that, we got it!

Ciderhelm
02-04-2009, 01:35 PM
I still wanna hear Ciderhelm speak on this issue.
You're welcome to look at post #34. As said, this is neither an exploit nor a cheat. This isn't to say it won't be hotfixed if it's not intended to work this way.

Beyond that, I'm pruning out the last several posts to keep this on topic.

Laurathansal
02-05-2009, 12:31 AM
First post I ever make here, so first off all, HAI GUSY!

Secondly, we tried this last night. We have a pretty crap healer setup atm, very few priests and paladins, so this is the only tactic that we can use most of the time.

We decided to go in and try, and we also didn't have our prot paladin available, so a fury warrior respecced for add tanking, but I (resto druid) had to go do the taunting myself.

I glyphed with growl glyph and so did the MT (druid tank), and we went on trying. First thing i can say here is that the video Ciderhelm posts here makes it look EXTREMELY easy. It is not as easy as it looks, not by a long shot! It requires absolutely perfect timing, and requires some tries until you figure out the movement required to avoid the breath. It seems to me that Sartharion's breath has exactly 30 yard range, and therefore we must do the taunt right after he starts casting (while moving if possible) and quickly go away from the 30 yard range.

This worked fine last night, I managed to pull some successful taunts consecutively, but I did have a problem I have still to fix. When I got no lava waves, it's fine, I taunt everything with no problem at all. If there is a lava wave coming from the sides (the one that leaves 2 spots open), its also no problem. However, I had big problems when lava waves came, forcing me to go right side, out of range for taunting, or sometimes in range, but forcing me to quickly move towards the boss, taunt, and start moving back, and this never worked.

So my question is: Inside the lava, are we safe from any lava wave? You seem to mention that in your movie, but It's not clear wether you say it's a safe spot so that you need to move very little from lava waves, or if actually the lava itself makes you safe from lava waves.

Thanks a lot

swelt
02-05-2009, 05:46 AM
Creative use of game mechanics, I like it :) But I'm not sure that we'll switch to it.

Instead, we've been making good progress using another mechanic (not mentioned here or in the Fusion guide, but becoming a topic over at EJ (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/)) and that is Fire Resistance.

The way resistance works has changed. There are now certain thresholds which give you a guaranteed minimum resist.
104 - minimum damage resistance 10%
178 - minimum damage resistance 20%
277 - minimum damage resistance 30%
415 - minimum damage resistance 40%

An aura or totem plus a Lesser Flask of Resistance - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44939) should get you above that second tier. That means you gaurantee a 20% reduction (possibly more) on each breath, which in turn means your high stam druid can survive all but the biggest breaths without cooldowns, and the big breaths probably only need a minor CD (e.g. hand of sacrifice) to survive. It may also be possible to get above that third tier, although the absence of craftable FR gear makes that difficult. Leatherworkers have a fur lining that might be required to realistically achieve this.

I do like the level of control offered by the video strategy though.

Demongate
02-05-2009, 06:57 AM
My 1st post here after being a long time reader, 1st of all I wanna say to you Cider, excellent vid on this fight and all the others you've made so far! They have really helped me being a raid leader and have lead us to victory numerous times. Keep up the great work.

Now for this fight we bring in 5 tanks.

Druid on Sarth
Druid/DK on adds
Pally on Drakes
Myself, Warrior for the taunts.

We have 6 healers.
3 on MT
1 each on the add tanks
1 on the drake tank

We tried this strategy last night and was consistantly gettin Shadron to around 50% before wiping.

One of the main problems we were having was melee dying to the void zones. We've concluded that we had too much melee and they were all cluster fucked together to react to the void zones in time. Next time we head into OS we will definately have more ranged than melee.

Another problem we had was the Hunters md on the drakes as they landed. Our hunters said that the md was not working and the drake would instead aggro to them. I've noticed that when the drakes land they are not targetable right away and/or their aggro table isn't properly working. Seems like you have to wait for them to start moving before the aggro table kicks in. Do you think this is the problem, that the Hunters should just wait till they start moving before they fire off their md?

Another thing I was thinking of changing is bringing in another healer so the Holy Pally can work on the taunts seeing as how he can heal himself up. This would allow me to help on adds having Vigi on the MT as well as picking up the drakes should any run loose. Thoughts?

Ray
02-05-2009, 07:02 AM
Another problem we had was the Hunters md on the drakes as they landed. Our hunters said that the md was not working and the drake would instead aggro to them. I've noticed that when the drakes land they are not targetable right away and/or their aggro table isn't properly working. Seems like you have to wait for them to start moving before the aggro table kicks in. Do you think this is the problem, that the Hunters should just wait till they start moving before they fire off their md?

If your hunters are survival they need to not use explosion shot for the MD. We had a few wipes so far with raiding due to the hunters (who were all BM prior to the patch) would MD with explosion shot and get insta gibbed by the boss as it ran by them. The only other thing I can think of is that the hunters are wasting there MD on something other than the drake due to it taking a while for it to become targetable.

wjb147
02-05-2009, 08:14 AM
When Sarth 3D was designed, using any taunt to avoid a breath was not feasible. Paladins did not have a single target taunt and warriors taunt range was not large enough range to make taunt/intervene useful.

Marotgus
02-05-2009, 08:25 AM
For all the people complaining about the taunt being an exploit....Do it your own damn way and don't worry about it. Jesus, it's just a video game.

Schwegburt
02-05-2009, 09:18 AM
An exploit being used on a fight that arbitrarily shuts out specific classes from performing their normal roles and emphasizes a Death knight's advantages over other tanks in their AoE threat and defensive cooldowns. I think anything that opens up more options in a fight that's as biased towards certain raid comps like Sarth 3D is worthwhile.

Zul'jin's Dilios
02-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Yo Cider!

Awesome video (and project tbh)! I have a couple questions:

What unit frames are you using, and where do you get your tunes!?

thanks!

Lilie
02-05-2009, 10:43 AM
It makes no rational sense to call this an exploit. Period. Stop talking about it. That conversation is over.

Again, like Cider said previously, it doesn't mean that the mechanics of this fight will always remain this way. However, for now, this stategy is an adequate use of ability and skill to defeat a difficult boss. Kill him however you desire. Just because the folks at Blizzard might not have invisioned this idea that can't discredit the fact that others have, given the skillset and abilities set before them.

Dont forget to enjoy the game, guys.

Man▀earpig
02-05-2009, 10:57 AM
Creative use of game mechanics, I like it :) But I'm not sure that we'll switch to it.

Instead, we've been making good progress using another mechanic (not mentioned here or in the Fusion guide, but becoming a topic over at EJ (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/)) and that is Fire Resistance.

The way resistance works has changed. There are now certain thresholds which give you a guaranteed minimum resist.
104 - minimum damage resistance 10%
178 - minimum damage resistance 20%
277 - minimum damage resistance 30%
415 - minimum damage resistance 40%


I wear 277 FR in our strat as well.

Ciderhelm
02-05-2009, 11:14 AM
When Sarth 3D was designed, using any taunt to avoid a breath was not feasible. Paladins did not have a single target taunt and warriors taunt range was not large enough range to make taunt/intervene useful.
Both Paladins and Warriors were perfectly capable of doing this prior to 3.0.8 and both of these classes are the ones that cannot realistically tank Sartharion on their own.

Paladins did have the range, and Paladins did not have issues on a single target fight with no other adds attacking the MT when using Righteous Defense.

Warriors were able to do this with a Taunt/Intervene, which is what we originally tested.

Hunters have a 41 yard Taunt and don't need to move an inch.

These are not new game mechanics. This is similar to Intervening the Shear so a non-Warrior can tank Illidan.

tPaste
02-05-2009, 11:28 AM
An exploit being used on a fight that arbitrarily shuts out specific classes from performing their normal roles and emphasizes a Death knight's advantages over other tanks in their AoE threat and defensive cooldowns. I think anything that opens up more options in a fight that's as biased towards certain raid comps like Sarth 3D is worthwhile.

Well said. Very well said. I come from a guild that doesn't happen to have any DK tanks (well we just picked one up a couple days ago) and had our Druid tank leave over a month ago. Basically we have 3 warriors and a Pally. That's basically it. On this fight we take a combo of three out of the four. It was hard as hell (way harder than it should be), but I'm happy to say we downed this guy this week...and I was the Prot Warrior Main Tank...we even managed it with no taunts...just rotation of cooldowns.

Though I am disappointed to say we would have downed this guy weeks ago if we happened to be lucky enough to have a tank class that fits this fight's specifications better.

Moral of the story is a Warrior tank can MT this encounter with the use of cooldowns and a little luck...but boy is it a PITA. I really really hope blizzard designs encounters better than this misery in the future.

Enemy
02-05-2009, 11:34 AM
My guild has done 2 drakes(Tenebron/Vesperon) very well recently. Our DPS is high, very few deaths from flame walls/fissures. Tonight will be our first attempt doing 3D and doing plenty of research, we've decided on using this strategy as our go-to strategy.

Our feral tank likes the KISS strategy, keep it simple stupid. This seems to be less prone to error with one person in charge of "negating the breath" and allows one of our priest healers to stay in Divine Spirit to increase DPS =).

Our original goal was to try to work Shadron in with 1 other drake up to experience Shadron before attempting 3, however, with extra time on our hands, we're going for the big bang. I'll be playing Cider's role tonight and really hope this works well. Always a big plus to have that title before some of those competitive guilds!

Thanks Cider for the great vid,
Enemy of Staghelm

Darksend
02-05-2009, 11:36 AM
graf from vodka is a warrior who has main tanked 3d for them since week one and has never had to rely heavily on others cooldowns, if done properly the tank will eat 1 max 2 breaths per vesperon add

vesperon alive, shadron alive, vesperon add alive, shadron add alive, unless all 4 of those are present a tank will not get 1shot unless they are severely undergeared to begin with


It's not an exploit. There's a good argument to be made that it may be unintended since Twilight Torment dancing was removed, and we'll find out next patch whether that's the case.



also, twilight torment was never meant to go away when you took damage from it, i have a feeling the original version of twilight torment was the bug. this version is here to stay im confident about that.

if you had to rely on that immunity to beat the encounter then you are either to undergeared for it or using the wrong strat as xav and others have said.

this is a VERY innovative way of doing this encounter and i hope blizzard does not change the breathe range. i believe that while possibly unintended it is a totally legit way of beating the encounter (although until you explained it i was like WTF are you doing running around doing nothing cider O.o)

wjb147
02-05-2009, 01:34 PM
So what is the range of flame breath then? The skill is listed as 45 yards.

Ciderhelm
02-05-2009, 02:29 PM
So what is the range of flame breath then? The skill is listed as 45 yards.
Wowhead is listed as 45 yards, but in-game it's 30 yards out from where you can taunt him. If you stand perfectly at 30 yards, you can take 1 step backwards. (I'm not as exact b/c I'm raid leading at the same time, so I move a little farther to be safe)

Gertiploiss
02-05-2009, 03:51 PM
Can someone answer about the dps and tank requirements? Sorry for being so persistant, but I kinda want to get to it sometime pre patch 3.1

Kuwadora
02-05-2009, 07:26 PM
The 45 yard range probably starts at the center of Sartharion, while the 30 yard taunt range only needs to hit his massive hit box.

Laurathansal
02-06-2009, 12:12 AM
Wowhead is listed as 45 yards, but in-game it's 30 yards out from where you can taunt him. If you stand perfectly at 30 yards, you can take 1 step backwards. (I'm not as exact b/c I'm raid leading at the same time, so I move a little farther to be safe)

Killed him last night using this tactic :)

As for the quote, it is in fact 30 yards. The first night we tried that I was taunting and died a few times because I was too close. Yesterday I fixed my positioning and it all went fine.

For people claiming this as an exploit, tbh I dont think this strat is easier than the other 2 or 3 strategies we had before. Basically the ones before relied on either a DK tanking (which made it completely trivial), or a druid tanking with palas and priests having to focus on protecting him. We had neither of those in a good proportion, we have no DK tank and we have a low amount of priests and palas (to the date). Therefore this new strategy enabled us to kill him, since we had the skill for it, just not the correct classes.

A word again, If you think this is easy, go ahead and try. It is quite hard really.


Oh and regarding dps and tank requirements, I felt confident on our dps yesterday so I brought 8 healers and 5 tanks into the fight. It went extra smooth since as long as you can kill Tenebron in time for me to move to my taunting spot before vesperon lands, then its fine. But you can do it with a range of 6-8 healers, and 3-5 tanks (depends on how good your tanks are grabbing adds, or how good your raid is noticing void zones, etc, we just went the safe way)

Ciderhelm
02-06-2009, 08:47 AM
Can someone answer about the dps and tank requirements? Sorry for being so persistant, but I kinda want to get to it sometime pre patch 3.1
DPS --> Can kill Tenebron before Shadron lands. If you can do that, you have the DPS for either strategy.
Tanks --> 30k unbuffed for Warriors/Paladins/DKs, 40k for Druids? Something in that range. HP is your most valuable asset.

Yannis
02-06-2009, 07:49 PM
Could you please be kind enough and post a list of your addons used in the movie?

Also I am particularly interested in the unit frames you are using and your rage bar. Very clean and easy to see outside peripheral vision.

Much obliged.

Tzotrag
02-07-2009, 02:33 AM
Many Thx :)

Likin1996
02-07-2009, 12:13 PM
hey this is likin from zuluhed realm can u tell me wat addons u used in that video??

Gertiploiss
02-07-2009, 02:10 PM
DPS --> Can kill Tenebron before Shadron lands. If you can do that, you have the DPS for either strategy.

K. So i did the math accorded to wowhead. He has 2,231,200 health and you have 45 seconds to kill him. With your make up you had approximatly 14 dps.

2,231,200/45= 49582.2
49582.2/14= 3541.58

Around 3,5k dps per person. I'm not sure how it's possible on normal if this is the case for both levels. I need to check out OS after reset

Gadholm
02-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Ciderhelm's UI

Merry Christmas. There is already a long thread devoted to Cider's UI, along with compilation of said UI, all found at above link.

Yannis
02-07-2009, 04:52 PM
thank you VERY much for that clarification. I am new here...

I could add to his ui with a lot of my own customisation which focuses on visually clean ui for movie making. He could improve a lot. I will get back to you once I have implemented my ui with those custom numeric displays.

Btw recently purchased a custom made system driven by fully SSD drives and 16G ram, quad SLI to record wow at best visual settings from software and hardware without impacting game performance.

The ultimate cameraman :)
Random Materials (http://photos.yannisziakas.com/#1.0)

Nightterror
02-08-2009, 03:40 AM
This video helped so much, about to try this out and hopefully get a kill :D
I'm curious, how did you come up with this?
Also, when you taunt him, are the dps in any danger from his tail?
and finally, what is that music? its so awesome lol I have to know

Lilie
02-08-2009, 09:10 AM
Lore...nice video...super articulate and easy to follow.

By the way: As a general note you can permanently keep the max distance associated with that macro command by typing the following

/script SetCVar("cameraDistanceMax", 25)
/script SetCVar("cameraDistanceMaxFactor", 2)

That way you don't have to keep hitting your macro. Just type that once and you're good.

Kahmal
02-08-2009, 11:40 AM
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread...my one question tho is when it come down to the Cool down thing, do you pop em all at once or use a rotation and do it one at a time?

Gnurken
02-08-2009, 11:45 AM
Use one cooldown per breath, we have a pre-set order I call out on ventrilo so people get ready.

Krashtork
02-08-2009, 01:05 PM
May want to clarify what strategy the healing notes are tied to. It can be confusing otherwise.

suadero
02-08-2009, 04:20 PM
we've been doing exactly the same strategy as lore for weeks now. i'm the drake tank and other than the direction i run to get to the last drake, we do it exactly the same.

Galexior
02-08-2009, 05:50 PM
sorta off topic, what is that addon that you have that is a bunch of little boxes, presumably the raid members' health? it is on the left hand side.

(just curiosity)

cudmaster
02-08-2009, 07:39 PM
Thank you, using the taunting strat, even my guild full of baddies were finally able to do this.

maddfez
02-08-2009, 09:27 PM
Our guild does the fight very similarly to Lore's strategy. One change that could be helpful for guilds learning the fight is to use two drake tanks. We have one tank get Tenebron and Vespron and the other gets Shadron. This lowers movement requirements for tanks and dps and removes the potential for a Shadron + Tenebron double breath on the drake tank, which will likely kill them due to Tenebron's aura. We found this actually increased our dps on Tenebron, making it easier to get some dps time on Shadron before Vesperon lands.

Sylnir
02-09-2009, 01:36 AM
I wear 277 FR in our strat as well.

Hey Manbear, I'm surprised noone has picked up on this but - would you mind giving a quick list of what pieces you wear to get that much FR?

I'm compiling a list of stuff I consider useful for my raid group - we're going to start on this next reset - and I'd love to know.

Our drood MT was one of the FR OTs on illidan so I know she has all that gear, just trying to figure out the balance.

Ty in advance :)

Droppy
02-09-2009, 03:07 AM
Taunt tactic is just awesome.
We killed Sarth+3d few times before 3.0.8 patch, but was not able to kill him after "Twillight torment" fix (vesperon's acolyte debuff).
I explained that tactic to my guildmates and we managed to kill Sarth25 + 3d in two hours of tries.
Sartharion was tanked by warrior tank (me), other warrior was on "taunt" duty, third warrior tanked all major drakes and deathknight was on AE tanking. The main tactic problem is raid members' closeness. Many tries failed because of void zones.

I think Blizz will nerf taunts for Sarth, probably by making him taunt-immune while he is shielded by Shardon's acolyte full-immune-shield. And warriors, pallys will become non-Sarth-tanks once again.

mistabean
02-09-2009, 05:44 AM
I would like to ask a question about warrior tanking elemental/whelps. I was given this task last week, and I found it to be borderlining hell for me. I can somewhat keep it in control if there's only one spawn of whelps, but if the second pops out just when Tenenbron died, all hells broke loose since we AOE down the adds when Tenenbron goes down. Also I find it difficult to catch the mentals that spawns over at melee range of the drake tank, since doing that means I will leave the main tank healers momentarily.

I was using standard glyphs (Revenge, Sunder Armor, Blocking), together with standard deep wounds spec. I put vigilance on the Sarth's tank so that I can have infinite taunts, and I do AoE taunt when the AoE starts running (while trying to keep Sarth in mind). And I do run around a lot, trying to find loose mentals, but sometimes I get overwhelmed by it (which in turn, sometimes makes a sudden death from a void zone)

So, my question would be

1. Should I invest and change one of the glyphs (maybe Sunder Armor) to Cleave so that at least one more gets a bit more aggro onto it?

2. Should I ask one of the paladins healing the MT to heal with Righteous Fury? And put my vigilance on him instead of the MT. (no BoSanc)

3. When I anticipate a whelp spawn, I try to save my TC/SW for it. In return, when multiple mentals spawn, I might have difficulty catching them all. Is this good practice?

4. Is it good practice to stand still, tank them all (while avoiding the lava walls), and try to see if there's any mentals, or to run around to see if there's any mentals loose?

PS:- I am not a terribad tank, but I am no stellar/outstanding tank either.
EDIT:- This is 25-men situation

Yakra
02-09-2009, 06:03 AM
I had a question about using this strat...

We're having an issue where Sarth breaths, the second tank taunts, and the MT gets tail-swiped. This delays him getting taunted back, and the OT dies on occasion (he pops CDs, but sometimes just gets eaten).

How did you deal with / avoid this?

tPaste
02-09-2009, 08:38 AM
I had a question about using this strat...

We're having an issue where Sarth breaths, the second tank taunts, and the MT gets tail-swiped. This delays him getting taunted back, and the OT dies on occasion (he pops CDs, but sometimes just gets eaten).

How did you deal with / avoid this?

That's a fantastic question. In fact I asked the same exact question back on page two...never did get an answer though.

Gertiploiss
02-09-2009, 10:57 AM
I had a question about using this strat...

We're having an issue where Sarth breaths, the second tank taunts, and the MT gets tail-swiped. This delays him getting taunted back, and the OT dies on occasion (he pops CDs, but sometimes just gets eaten).

How did you deal with / avoid this?
Rewatch the video and note that Sartharion is standing at an angle away from the tank on an OT breath. You just need to stand in a different position.

Lore
02-09-2009, 11:07 AM
sorta off topic, what is that addon that you have that is a bunch of little boxes, presumably the raid members' health? it is on the left hand side.

(just curiosity)

Grid

cudmaster
02-09-2009, 11:10 AM
For all the people complaining about the taunt being an exploit....Do it your own damn way and don't worry about it. Jesus, it's just a video game.


Given that they KNEW we would try this because people did it on BRUT....

Given that they JUST patched every tank class to a long range taunt, AND gave HUNTARDS a long range taunt mechanic...

Given that the fight still isn't a complete joke when you do this (you still need everyone "on the ball"/"off the voids" and that the long range taunt tank needs to be dodging lava waves etc etc making it "kinda hard" for them to pull off.

I think this if not "the way" they intended, is certainly "one of the ways" they intended. Though it seems equally likely that they intended you to use a DK tank because they are shiny and new and bliz will probably try hard to require them for half the fights in Uludar and beyond so it isn't lost on us that "thar is a new tanking class".

The way we did it was 4 tanks, druid on sarth, dk on taunt monkey duty, me (in my pally aspect) dealing with the fire ele guys and the whelps (low glory, high stress, my kind of job), Warrior on the drakes (has to tank 2 for a few seconds, thats why god invented shield wall), had a dps warrior tank the guys in the shadow realm.

Osmond
02-09-2009, 04:36 PM
After learning and mastering the 3D 25man encounter my guild's 10 man progression group has tried and tried to do this seemingly hitting a brick wall as soon as twilight torment has gone up. We've tried everything we can think of for raid composition stacking Casters, stacking Physical, 2-healer, 3-healer, even 4-tank set ups and just can't get past that point.

Our DPS has improved significantly over our first few attempts and we can reliably get Tenebron down just at or shortly after Shadron lands. Shadron DPS is slow simply because people will kill themselves from the reactive damage.

Our normal raid composition that has produced best results has been

1 DK tank specced for improved CDs, 1 Paladin tank for Blazes and Whelps, and 1 Warrior tank for Tenebron, Shadron, and Vesperon.

3 Healers - 1 Restoration Druid normally healing Blaze tank, Rolling hots on the Drake tank, and raid healing. 1 Restoration Shaman healing the Drake tank and raid. 1 Discipline Preist healing the Sarth tank.

4 DPS - Affliction lock, Combat Rogue, Survival Hunter, and Unholy DK.

We've expieremented too with having an addition hunter in the group and having the Unholy DK tank and DPS the blazes and whelps with some success.

Is something massively flawed in our set up or is there something else we should be thinking about?

Rawf
02-10-2009, 09:34 AM
Just a question, approximately what would be the travel time on distracting shot from 41 yards?

Grizlock
02-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Seems as if they have increased the breath range. I guess this is a class that only a hero class is supposed to tank.

Kapteinen
02-10-2009, 08:26 PM
a DK tank is great against fight like this if they have specced Acclimation, acclimation is a talent in the frost tree, pretty far up, that allows any resistance to stack up pretty high.
So if you are tanking a fire boss the FR stacks, same with shadow etc. A Shamans totems will also help on the stacks, as it stacks per tick, or so i've heard, not tested the last one yet.

Ciderhelm
02-11-2009, 01:51 AM
Seems as if they have increased the breath range.
Confirmed! Thanks for the heads up. That settles the question of whether this was intended. :)

Gnurken
02-11-2009, 02:08 AM
Seems as if they have increased the breath range. I guess this is a class that only a hero class is supposed to tank.

C'mon stop that. This fight does not require a DeathKnight. Ok they have more cooldowns but if dps is sucky they still need outside help from Priests and Paladins like any other tank class. If dps is good enough I don't need anything but my own Shieldwall for 1 breath before Shadron drops.

Tell dps to play properly and you be fine.

Ray
02-11-2009, 05:54 AM
Question on Lore's Video:

How many healers did you bring? Our guild has trouble killing Tenebron in under 60 sec (like whats in the video) even with hero on Tenebron (we get to about 1min 15 sec). Im thinking we are carring to many healers, but Im not sure. We were using 7 healers for the encounter.

Gnurken
02-11-2009, 06:05 AM
7 healers is fine, don't let your healers suffer from your dps not being good enough.

Ray
02-11-2009, 06:09 AM
7 healers is fine, don't let your healers suffer from your dps not being good enough.

No I know, but we are using the max healers recommended per the fusion strat, so I was just wondering if Lore was using 7 or 6. My feeling is that an extra DPSer would put us over the top. Can your guild do it with 7 healers and a 60 sec kill on tene w/o hero?

Gnurken
02-11-2009, 06:44 AM
I don't know exact seconds, but we have Tenebron at about 10-15% when Shadron becomes active, then ranged switch to AOE whelps while melee finish off Tenebron and starting on Shadron (bladeflurry, cleave, I don't know) then we get a lava-wall and after that we blow Bloodlust.

Depending a bit on lava-walls Shadron is 40-20% when Vesperon lands and I use a rotation of Shield Wall / Guardian Spirit / Hand of Sac to survive until Shadron drops. Most of the times it's just a Shieldwall needed.

Laurathansal
02-11-2009, 07:53 AM
So the taunting tactic is over? Since they increased the range...

Ont
02-11-2009, 08:32 AM
Where did the timeline go? I am confused. :P

Lore
02-11-2009, 09:32 AM
# of healers depends on your DPS. If you're getting to 1min 15sec with Bloodlust/Heroism, it sounds like you probably have some DPS that are slacking off. Build your raid to suit -- try it with 6 heals, see how it goes. Better yet, get your low-end DPS to step it up a bit :)

astreiker
02-11-2009, 11:28 AM
A little confused...

I do not understand one of your "tips" here:

3. Paladin(s): "Righteous Fury" to grab a majority of the healing aggro to make add tank job easier.

In patch 3.0.2 the way agro is generated from Righteous Fury was changed to "Righteous Fury now increases threat caused by Holy damage by 90%"
(The latest 3.0.8 notes still include this change from right before WOTLK WoW -> Patch Notes -> Current Patch Notes (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/))
so in other words Rigtheous Fury or lack of it has ZERO effect on aggro generation from HEALING only on Damage. If you mean something like have a paladin off tank with Righteous Fury stand near the healers then sure, but for a healer using Righteous Fury will not help generate agro or direct adds anywhere. And if you mean for a OT paladin to use Righteous Fury well sure why would we NOT have it up even if only on adds.

Lore
02-11-2009, 12:04 PM
RF still affects healing aggro. The tooltip was just reworded for some reason when they made it 90% base instead of 60% with +50% from talents.

astreiker
02-11-2009, 12:32 PM
Lore I think I will have to disagree with you atm.

I am pretty sure even though I cannot find any direct link that the threat does not get modified by Righteous Fury in regards to healing ever since Wotlk came out, but since I cannot find a direct link that confirms my thoughts or contradicts yours I will do some testing. The removed this mechanic and changed the tooltip specifically due to how some healers/tanks were abusing the RF + healing on Fights like Tidewalker and A'lar back in BC. If you have a link to some testing that shows RF DOES still modify healing threat please post some links or send me the link and I will most happily read it.

Lore
02-11-2009, 01:40 PM
RF affecting healing aggro is a huge part of why they had to remove the threat from JoL.

It's easy to test, just go body pull something and heal yourself with RF up, and look how much threat was generated on Omen.

Grizlock
02-11-2009, 05:21 PM
C'mon stop that. This fight does not require a DeathKnight. Ok they have more cooldowns but if dps is sucky they still need outside help from Priests and Paladins like any other tank class. If dps is good enough I don't need anything but my own Shieldwall for 1 breath before Shadron drops.

Tell dps to play properly and you be fine.

Yeah, I know a DK is not required, I was just a little bitter since this is the second time we've had to change our strat. So close last night, our main problem is one of our priests is having trouble hitting the cool down at the right time. It's frustrating when you have 24 people playing perfectly and you wipe because of something like that.

Wrosh
02-11-2009, 09:38 PM
I can confirm that RF Healing Aggro is still working. It proved to be the nail on the kill as I now knew which healer to stand at instead of guessing which of the six will get aggro and then all other five will die.

Thanks to Lore and Cider for the work!

astreiker
02-12-2009, 08:47 AM
I will admit I was wrong and Lore was right on this. I went and tested this last nite and indeed RF being up does generate extra agro for heals that actually land (ie - not overheals) and we are back to having a holy pally (or tank or ret) be able to pull adds to one location just by virtue of standing somewhere and healing with RF up to generate more agro than any other healers. Does really help with adds on this fight, and a mechanic that they specifically turned off in 3.0.2 and seem to have turned back on at some point without mentioning it. I do see the current tooltip on Righteous Fury is back to "Holy Spells" and not "Damage".

All Hail Lore!

Sor─sdream
02-12-2009, 09:50 AM
hey, What are the addons you use lore?

HeavenlyHell
02-12-2009, 01:27 PM
Recently the adds seem to be spawning more random than before. We have been running with 6 healers and when the fire walls come adds will spawn auto enrage and go after the healers that went on the opposite side of the fire wall and own them before I can get there to pick them up.

Have you guys had any issues with that?

Kennith
02-12-2009, 04:31 PM
Recently the adds seem to be spawning more random than before. We have been running with 6 healers and when the fire walls come adds will spawn auto enrage and go after the healers that went on the opposite side of the fire wall and own them before I can get there to pick them up.

Have you guys had any issues with that?

Actually yes, the whelps did not spawn under the portal like they use to, or at least I thought they use to. Last night was my first time tanking adds. And I was tanking them solo.

Either it was my own badness, or there is something I am missing here. As a solo warrior tank there are simply just too many that are too far spread apart. If they all grouped up in one area sure, no problem. But they didn't.

We had our paladin throw on RF and spam heals, and it worked a bit, for a few of the fire adds. But the many of the the whelps were to far away to be controlled quickly. This was our major downfall.

I feel like I've let my guild down, I consider myself an above average player with skills to match. But after facing this encounter, I don't know. Maybe I'm just a scrub.


TL; DR Version

Adds to spread out, RF not picking them up. I'm a baddie QQ


In all seriousness, if this has changed. Or there is some secret to picking these up that I am missing, please inform me. I do not take kindly to failure when it comes to tanking. I need to know what I am doing wrong.


Kenney
<Tainted Core>
Andorhal US

Demongate
02-13-2009, 12:16 PM
Hey Lore, nice guide. I have just a few questions for you.

1) Can you clarify the MT healer positions as well as for the North lava wall?

2) We are having a tough time dropping Shadron before the cd rotation is finished, would it be wiser to just have 2 aoe on the adds after Tenebron while the rest of the dps burn Shadron immediately via Bloodlust?

3) When exactly do u start the cd rotation? Is it after Shadrons acolyte or Vesperons?

Thanks in advance

Demongate
<Infinite>
Akama

Nworf
02-13-2009, 04:06 PM
I have a UI question. When you switch to DPS as Retribution(around 4:10) there is a mod that is actively showing raid DPS in a graph format. what is this mod

Thefantasy
02-15-2009, 09:25 PM
Hey, I'm posting in Regards to the current sarth strat. For one thing, I dunno if it still works but the whole RF thing doesn't seem to work anymore. We had several attempts and the adds would just be so sparatic and go to either DPS or healers.

I consider myself a pretty good tank, but when we have 2 Warrior Tanks to handle Elementals/Whelps, and when the Elementals are Everywhere, it really makes me question if you really just used just 2 tanks without any back up's or additional help. Because So far the Add control seems to be my guilds biggest problem, and guess who's in the middle of it all.

Seems like I'm not the only one who's having this problem either.

svnzealot
02-15-2009, 10:07 PM
Could I get a list of UI add-ons that you are using for this vid.
Thx

Yannis
02-16-2009, 01:36 AM
Is the taunting tactic now obsolete? Can someone confirm?

Holyfield
02-16-2009, 08:34 AM
3) When exactly do u start the cd rotation? Is it after Shadrons acolyte or Vesperons?

I have this same question.

It seems like I can survive breaths when Shadron's acolyte is up if I have priest and pally shields, but as soon as Twilight Torment is active, my survivability goes way down. So, can I just use fire resist pots and maybe my repelling charge trinket to live through the breaths until Vesperon is active, or will I need to start using big cooldowns as soon as Shadron's acolyte is up?

I sit at about 30K HP with the -HP% aura up.

Lore
02-16-2009, 09:43 AM
Is the taunting tactic now obsolete? Can someone confirm?

It was confirmed a couple pages back.

Lore
02-16-2009, 09:49 AM
1) Can you clarify the MT healer positions as well as for the North lava wall?

I'm not exactly sure. Our Disc Priest tells me there's a "sweet spot" on the little island somewhere where she never has to dodge either wall.


2) We are having a tough time dropping Shadron before the cd rotation is finished, would it be wiser to just have 2 aoe on the adds after Tenebron while the rest of the dps burn Shadron immediately via Bloodlust?

Assuming you're talking about the MT, ideally you should have an infinite rotation (meaning there's always some ability that's just come off of cooldown), which is why a DK tank is preferred. I'm not sure what you mean with the AOE suggestion -- there is no AOE (outside of whatever damage the AOE tanks manage to do) until Shadron is dead.


3) When exactly do u start the cd rotation? Is it after Shadrons acolyte or Vesperons?

Vesperon's. More specifically, you start the CD rotation as soon as Twilight Torment becomes active. Make sure your MT is aware when this is about to happen so he can be ready to pop a cooldown mid-breath if necessary -- the debuff will apply to the breath even if Sarth began the cast before it was active.

The breaths should only be able to 1-shot you without a cooldown while both Acolytes are active. If this isn't the case, you need more HP.

Demongate
02-16-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm not exactly sure. Our Disc Priest tells me there's a "sweet spot" on the little island somewhere where she never has to dodge either wall.



Assuming you're talking about the MT, ideally you should have an infinite rotation (meaning there's always some ability that's just come off of cooldown), which is why a DK tank is preferred. I'm not sure what you mean with the AOE suggestion -- there is no AOE (outside of whatever damage the AOE tanks manage to do) until Shadron is dead.



Vesperon's. More specifically, you start the CD rotation as soon as Twilight Torment becomes active. Make sure your MT is aware when this is about to happen so he can be ready to pop a cooldown mid-breath if necessary -- the debuff will apply to the breath even if Sarth began the cast before it was active.

The breaths should only be able to 1-shot you without a cooldown while both Acolytes are active. If this isn't the case, you need more HP.

Thanks for the clarification there, so basically after Tenebron is dead all dps go to town on Shadron with a bloodlust.

Works for me.

pinoy285
02-17-2009, 05:29 AM
that's a very helpful video.. by the way what kinda of UI and addons you using? they look pretty cool!

Demongate
02-17-2009, 07:31 AM
We finally got this fight last night and I just wanted to give a shout out to you Lore for making this guide and followin up on my questions. Couldn't have done it without you.

Twilight Vanquisher Demongate out.

Bodasafa
02-17-2009, 07:49 AM
Glad I saved this read for Forum Tuesdays lol. Lots of QQ in here almost made me think I was on the Blizzard Official Forums lol.

Anyway....

I am wondering what the best group comp for a 25 man would be. I was wondering if Cider or Lore could please list who you had in what role with what assignment, if you happen to have the time.

Thank you in advance.
-Boda

Celandro
02-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Thank you so much for the video. The few minor adjustments we did from it made all the difference.

Stearns
02-18-2009, 01:13 PM
Can anyone recommend any good places to go for a basic written strat description + timeline of this fight, and when debuffs are applied. From what I've gleaned, the mechanics changes for a taunt strategy changed, rendering the original video & subsequent comments obsolete. I've gone through all the comments but I'm having a hard time piecing it together in a consistent way. I'm going to be MTing this for the first time tonight, but I'm not even sure when the worst fire breaths occur. Anyway, looking forward to it a lot, should be a blast.

Lore
02-18-2009, 01:16 PM
Can anyone recommend any good places to go for a basic written strat description + timeline of this fight, and when debuffs are applied. From what I've gleaned, the mechanics changes for a taunt strategy changed, rendering the original video & subsequent comments obsolete. I've gone through all the comments but I'm having a hard time piecing it together in a consistent way. I'm going to be MTing this for the first time tonight, but I'm not even sure when the worst fire breaths occur. Anyway, looking forward to it a lot, should be a blast.

The video in the OP is a current strategy -- the taunt strat videos were removed.

Stearns
02-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Oh ok yeah ty I realized its an updated video, and its really great, especially with the positioning circles. I'm just looking for something written down that I can keep right in front of me during the fight and I can study better eg with timelines, when the worst breath damage occurs. If all of this is in the video then that's cool. I just cant keep a video on the desk in front of me, nor can I study it while I go off for a couple of beers to chill before the raid, lol.

Lore
02-18-2009, 01:25 PM
Oh ok yeah ty I realized its an updated video, and its really great, especially with the positioning circles. I'm just looking for something written down that I can keep right in front of me during the fight and I can study better eg with timelines, when the worst breath damage occurs. If all of this is in the video then that's cool. I just cant keep a video on the desk in front of me, nor can I study it while I go off for a couple of beers to chill before the raid, lol.

Worst breath damage usually starts about 3-5 seconds after Vesperon (Drake 3) lands. It's his acolyte that puts up the debuff, so as soon as you get the "A Vesperon Acolyte appears in the Twilight Portal" message, that's when the heavy breath damage starts. You'll also get the Twilight Torment debuff at the same time.

Stearns
02-18-2009, 01:26 PM
Thank you! I'll let you know how we get on. I joined a new guild, they've already killed him many times, I just dont want to be a total noob on my first night :)

Wargard
02-20-2009, 07:21 AM
I currently MT for my guild, and we are not up to viable 25 man's yet. I have been running people through Vault and OB San here on Friday's and Naxx (various wings) on Saturdays.
For my own sense of Sanity can anyone give some specific make ups for doing the 10 man? We just do a regular clear, and I would love to try doing 3 drakes. Has anyone had any luck since the patch doing this 10 man?
Our Possible make up is
4 tanks Warrior, Pally, DK and Bear.
3 Healers Priest, Pally and Shaman.
Our DPS is nearly all classes.

Trying to figure out best set up before we attempt it.
Thanks in Advance for any suggestions.

PS I read entire post up to here, and dont see the info listed.

Ray
02-20-2009, 07:42 AM
I currently MT for my guild, and we are not up to viable 25 man's yet. I have been running people through Vault and OB San here on Friday's and Naxx (various wings) on Saturdays.
For my own sense of Sanity can anyone give some specific make ups for doing the 10 man? We just do a regular clear, and I would love to try doing 3 drakes. Has anyone had any luck since the patch doing this 10 man?
Our Possible make up is
4 tanks Warrior, Pally, DK and Bear.
3 Healers Priest, Pally and Shaman.
Our DPS is nearly all classes.

Trying to figure out best set up before we attempt it.
Thanks in Advance for any suggestions.

PS I read entire post up to here, and dont see the info listed.

There are plenty of other threads covering the 10 man version (none of which I have links to at this time)

nzall
02-23-2009, 03:11 AM
Very nice guides.

I just wonder one thing: who got the drake mount on the Ciderhelm vid?

I would have given it to the DK who OT'd the drakes when the actual OT died. I mean, without him, you would not even have had the achievement. he saved the raid, so he deserved a reward.

Blitzago
02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
Anyways, my guild is working on this, and our biggest problem seems to be twilight torment, we are running 3 tank 7 heals, DK on Sarth with a war on Drakes and war on Adds.

Healing is 2 Holy Pallies, 2 Holy Priests, 2 Resto Druids, 1 Resto Shammy.

What kills most people is as they are getting hit by twilight torment they get hit by like a 15k lava strike which kills them especially with the -25%hp debuff, is this just a healer thing, that the healers have to pick it up? Cause we currently only have 3 cooldowns for the DK including his, DG from me, and his AMS and IBF,

I'm currently thinking of having the other holy pally and our Ret pallies spec into DG, I'm just wondering if it will gimp the ret DPS to much? Since all they miss out on is PoJ and Sanctified Wrath.

Finkleroy
02-23-2009, 11:52 AM
Great vid.

One thing that helped my guild was keeping the add count as low as possible. We had one or two people with mob targeted aoe (not ground targeted) stay on the adds whenever there were at least 3-4 up. This freed up some healing to keep everyone up during twilight torment (particularly the drake tank). Feral kitties and shadow priests worked well for this.

Also, I was wondering how the acolytes respawn. From our attempts (first kill last week!), we think that the drakes have a X second cooldown on spawning acolytes, and that they use it as soon as it is up. For example, if the cooldown was 40 secs and it takes your raid 30 secs to get in the portal and kill the acolyte, then it would respawn 10 secs later.

Olcsonn
02-23-2009, 08:44 PM
My guild is having a problem with the adds (elementals and whelps), we have a druid on Sarth, warrior on the drakes, and me the pally tank on the adds. I feel like no matter what I do I just can't get them all, either an elemental slips by and I miss it (because like 5 drop at once) or the whelps miss my consecration. It just seems like no matter how hard I try I just can't get them fast enough. Does anyone have any idea on what could help me out? An addon that would help me, or something, anything.

My Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eonar&n=Alkaia)

Consecrate
02-23-2009, 08:46 PM
Swap jobs with the warrior, the nature of Consecrate makes it hard to pick up the adds where as TC/SW give more snap aggro + charge is ftw!

You may also consider dropping a healer and taking a 4th tank!

tehgreen
02-23-2009, 08:46 PM
We get one of our holy pallies to put up righteous fury, than he stands inside consecrate.

Make sure you have a designated rogue for FoK.

Blitzago
02-24-2009, 12:12 PM
My guild is having a problem with the adds (elementals and whelps), we have a druid on Sarth, warrior on the drakes, and me the pally tank on the adds. I feel like no matter what I do I just can't get them all, either an elemental slips by and I miss it (because like 5 drop at once) or the whelps miss my consecration. It just seems like no matter how hard I try I just can't get them fast enough. Does anyone have any idea on what could help me out? An addon that would help me, or something, anything.

My Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eonar&n=Alkaia)
Ya I would also Suggest switching with the warrior, if played well, warriors are amazing add tanks with vigilance on the maintank or something of that sort to keep taunt refreshed. And from everything I've seen, paladins seem to be the best threat for single target to start off, and can get a good head start especially with a crit shield of the righteousness.

Mahntor
02-25-2009, 04:47 AM
Downed this last week, my first time there (not my guild's tho) and we one shotted it, i was add tank (warrior) and that's a pretty easy job for a warrior, had a DK mt sarth and paladin on drakes.

Paladins have a much easier time picking up shadron along with holding aggro on Tenebron because of their aoe threat.

Vrachara
02-28-2009, 04:24 PM
Ok, this might be a stupid question, but I've searched through the site as much as I could and watched the videos.

I've noticed that for the Sartharion's MT, some people have mentioned removing TT debuff by timing an attack on Sartharion. However, I see those threads are back from January or so and I remember seeing some videos that said "strategy not valid since 3.0.8"...

Long story short. Does attacking Sartharion while Shadron's Acolyte's up remove the TT debuff?

stabbington
03-02-2009, 05:03 AM
Long story short. Does attacking Sartharion while Shadron's Acolyte's up remove the TT debuff?

No. You just have to deal with it. As the Sartharion tank on this fight I usually just get what threat I can before Shadron spawns his disciple (makes Sartharion immune to damage), then stop attacking altogether until all the drakes and their adds are down and the warrior tank taunts off me.

Vrachara
03-02-2009, 09:48 AM
Gracias for the info, though I saw it last night for myself hehe. And indeed - stopping attacks is a must, I tried attacking at first in an attempt to keep Infected Wounds going, but realised it wasn't worth it as I was dealing a lot of damage to myself while it was hard to keep IW up anyway due to my crappy hit rating.

I've worked out that the best thing that worked for me was a 334+ FR, 50k+ health set (bear tank here). Mind you, I was talking/interested about the 10 man, however, it's effective in the 25 man as well. I'll try to find a 10 man thread and post my info there now :)

Huckle
03-02-2009, 09:56 AM
A question for the drake tanks out there, do any of you use shadow resist to lessen those breaths?

JBB
03-02-2009, 09:20 PM
Hi, I have a question, what kind of addons do u use on ur movies, like the one where all the pop ups that goes on the side. Thank you.

swelt
03-03-2009, 01:59 AM
Finally got 10 man down, after having 25 man done a few weeks ago. Thanks again for the guide, it was a great help having everyone understand.

Couple of additional things that helped me. I made a macro for targeting the drakes:

/target [nomodifier] Tenebron
/target [nomodifier] Shadron
/target Vesperon
/target [modifier] Shadron
/target [modifier] Tenebron

Tap this to target the last drake to spawn, tap it with shift, ctrl or alt held to target the earlier drake to spawn. Useful to mash when the drake is landing but not yet targetable so you can hit/taunt it the moment it is, and then switch back when you need to.

The other thing I did was respec to grab commanding presence. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZGV00xZMItrx0zidIzsGo) Certainly not a build I'd want to use most of the time, but in this small group environment with the balance of classes we had available, that extra bit of health across the whole group (and critically, on our feral druid sarth tank) I decided would give us more breathing space than the extra damage/threat from my standard 15/5/51 build. Maybe it wasn't necessary, but what did help a lot was booming voice, as this let me refresh CS on the druid MT at the point when I was dragging shadron over to vesperons spawn, which then lasted until the danger period was over.

Asylan
03-03-2009, 10:26 AM
Ok, I need some help on our strategy, not sure where we are going wrong.

1 Blood DK, Sarth MT
2 Warriors, Drake tanks
1 Paladin, Add tank

7 healers, 2 palys, 2 druids, 2 priests, 1 Shaman (this sometimes changes around depending on who is available)

14 DPS

Tenebron is going down fast, before a second portal. We have been tanking Tenebron opposite Sarth. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure how the 3 drakes are being tanked becaues while I'm MTing I can't really watch and we have been changing up our strategy every couple nights of attempts to try to find where we go wrong. Anyway, Shadron drops, we kill the adds with ranged attacks while the melee go immediately to Shadron. From what I understand we are tanking the drakes where they land and not dragging the prior drake to the new drake. 2 tanks are tanking the drakes. We have gotten Shadron down to around 10% once, and every other attempt we don't get that far. As MT I am staying alive no problem, I've got the CD rotation working great for me, and the healers helping me out are doing exactly what they should be. What seems to be happening is the raid gets totally overwhelmed by adds, Vesperon lands and adds TT to the mix, and they basically start to kill themselves with their own DPS. Some people are getting inconsistent DPS like one of our priests said he gets hit by TT for 3k a tic and it doesn't matter what kind of damage he's putting out. He's a shadow priest. Maybe our group isn't totally understanding what they should be doing when TT starts? Anyway, why can't get Shadron down? It just seems like there are way too many adds to be taking care of while Shadron and Vesperon are up, and Shadron just isn't going down, so far we haven't even killed him. Are we using too many tanks and healers? We could essentially get rid of a healer and a tank and get two more dps, wouldn't that help us get things dead faster? Any and all advice is welcomed.

Sylnir
03-09-2009, 05:51 AM
Our guild got this done a couple of weeks and I think the main thing that made it for us was not over-doing the healers and tanks. Our set up ended up being:

Druid Sarth MT - 52k hp but no FR (She's lazy, it would have helped, lol)
2x DK tanks - one on drakes one on adds.

5 healers - 3 pallies, 1 druid 1 priest. Ideally we would have had a priest instead of the 3rd pally.

17 DPS.

The fact is that the only time raid heals are heavy is during twilight torment and frankly with 3 bubbles to reduce the damage in that time we had Vesp almost down by the time the third bubble wore off. It also minimized the amount of cooldowns we needed to rotate on the tank. She did in fact get gibbed JUST as vesp died but one of the DKs picked sarth up and we did just fine.

I think the only thing I'd change from the above strat would just be to have the tank wear more FR and have another priest.

Hope that helps.

Huntred
03-24-2009, 03:14 AM
Have you ever seen a better describtion?
Thx for so much work!

Raxdo
03-31-2009, 03:39 AM
Hello :)

GREAT MOVIE ! really show some good tips and really have helped me a lot, but one think I am looking for now is just a movie on how or tips or somehow like help with people that have to tank the adds.
Anyone have a link to like a video to some tips on how to tank adds?

Lectux
03-31-2009, 05:24 AM
Thanks a lot for the guide, it was great help.

By the way
What is the name of the add on that allows your combat text to scroll on the side?

Argamasilla
03-31-2009, 01:34 PM
Could I get a verification on the breath damage for 25 Man.

Sarth base fire dmg: 12,000 + 50% dmg buff (Shadron's acolyte) = 18,000

Shadron's 100% fire debuff = base + base*100% = 36,000

W/Vespron's 75% fire debuff = base + base*100% +base*75% =
18,000 + 18000 + 12000 = 48,000

Or is it : base + base *175% = 18,000 + 31,500 = 49,500

Chula
03-31-2009, 04:42 PM
Here's a link to a chart showing Sartharion's max breath on each tank and with varying buffs. I don't know who created it, but it's something I've referenced many times.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1631/sarthabreathyj5.png

If you're the author of that chart, huge thanks out to you!

Argamasilla
03-31-2009, 05:57 PM
Awesome, just what I was looking for!

Baelfist
04-01-2009, 07:02 PM
You talk about How the text wraps around your chr, what mod is that? i would like to apply it my mods.

Pawetor
04-02-2009, 07:53 AM
Hello there fellow's!

Im really wondeing what kind of addOns you're using.
I really like the "black bottem" one, the one with you recount / chat messages in it.
Can you please tell me what their names are?

Thanks

Squirrelnut
04-03-2009, 04:06 PM
If anyone is interested in a compilation of information from this thread as well as various other websites and threads I created these two:

Guide (http://union-nerzhul.wowstead.com/forums/thread/59)
and
Supplemental (http://union-nerzhul.wowstead.com/forums/thread/79)

Let me know if you think I left anything out or should change anything.

Belteshazzar
04-04-2009, 09:04 PM
I have trouble attacking the scions because they are either out of range or not in front of me. In your video I see that you are zoomed so far out that you can see the scions and yourself at the same time. I've tried zooming out using the interface options and also by typing some camera setting syntax I got from one of the forums but it doesn't seem to zoom out as far as your camera.

Can you let me know if there is some trick to do this?

Thanks

Nazteck
04-05-2009, 03:46 AM
I am wondering about how much Health do the Main - Tank need to not die of Sartharions Breath when Vesperons debuff is active (dk-tank)?

svnzealot
04-06-2009, 12:12 PM
You talk about How the text wraps around your chr, what mod is that? i would like to apply it my mods.

The mod to make the text scroll around you is Scrolling Combat Text and the display HUD that you see in the middle with the Health to the left and the mana to the right is called Dhud. Well there are many versions of Dhud style center display, I personally like Dhud better. All ya have to do is search dhud at Curse.com - WoW Addons WAR Addons Gamer Blogs Forums (http://www.curse.com/) and the other versions will come up.

Hope that helps ya

boukli
04-06-2009, 04:54 PM
what addons do you use on the video need them all ?

Gascan
04-06-2009, 09:08 PM
Amazing movie, this really helped me out.

I would like to ask, what are the addons used in the 25man video?

boukli
04-07-2009, 03:17 AM
Updated w/ the non-HD version. I can't believe how hard reds are hit w/ encoding, so as the original post suggests, make sure to watch it again in HD.

Ciderhelm i have a Quest

What addons to you have use one the video
can you link it or make a config
maybe it easyer with it too down him

Chromazone
04-07-2009, 10:02 AM
Changing your addons may help some, but you have to be comfortable with them. Some people enjoy alot of addons, others find it hindering. Addons like Recount are nice because I can see my raid's dps but at the same time I can hide it if I find it too distracting. Lastly, while some addons can be really useful, they can quickly become a hinderance if you don't understand what they're actually doing. For instance, when I went to a RL friend's house because he asked me how he could improve his tanking, I watched him in a heroic. His screen was about 25-30% covered in mods. If they were helping him I could understand, but when I asked him why he had so many he replied "I saw them in videos of raid encounters so I added them. I don't know what some of them are doing exactly but it seemed to help those tanks so I figured it would help me."

Kojex
04-07-2009, 12:13 PM
I have a quick question.
Is Guardian Spirit (the last talent in the holy priest tree) still bugged for druid tanks?
If not is it a good idea for a druid tank to tank Sarth on 3 drake?

hbombs
04-08-2009, 01:59 PM
I have a quick question.
Is Guardian Spirit (the last talent in the holy priest tree) still bugged for druid tanks?
If not is it a good idea for a druid tank to tank Sarth on 3 drake?

A druid tank is good for sarth 3D if he is in high stamina gear. But that still relies mainly on cool downs of other players (priests/paladins)

I hope this doesn't cause any QQ.. but you should honestly just go get a DK to tank this. Do whatever it takes to find one :)

Draclich
04-11-2009, 06:45 AM
What UIs is Lore using in this Video? I love the look and would like to emulate it.

Thank you

Solaner
04-29-2009, 11:43 AM
Hello, Hey Ciderhelm I know you are probably very busy with the website and the game and real life events, But i wanted to ask if there was anyway that you can direct me in the way on how you make your videos. Im specifically intersted in the 1st 55 seconds of this video. I have looked a lot but cant find a way to to that. I am asking this because Me and My guild watch your videos all the time and i was inspired to make some of my own videos for my guild, cause as you know evryone adapts there own little strat from the main one. If you cant reply to this message dont worry about it. I understand how busy someone who makes these videos must be. If you can then id love to hear from you, If youd like you can contact me thru my email to keep this thread clean.

Thank for takeing your time and reading this


P.S.
I Apologize for my grammer I am writting this in a hurry in the hospital =)

Panelo
05-23-2009, 11:56 PM
Hey guys.
i am one of those fortunate people who knows alot of guys in big guilds so when we got a group together for this i was expecting us to do very well. we attempted it on 10 man which i played the part of the adds tank taking the fire elementals and the wrymkin. we had an unholy Dk tanking Sarth, and a warrior tanking the 3 drakes.
we attempted this for about 2 hours repeating the same tactic over and over. (bare in mind these guys are top players on server for horde) but we never even managed to down 1 drake before the 2 tanks were dead. obviously my job is fairly easy so i stayed alive longest, but my gear is not great so i died shortly after them. it seemed as tho the healing was not enough. but these guys are ulduar geared mostly with 25man naxx gear aswell. surely if anyone was going to do this it was this group. anyone got any ideas why we failed misirably on this?

Squirrelnut
05-26-2009, 08:15 AM
Get a WWS report and go over it to see whether the 'top people on the server' that you were with are actually any good lol.

If you didn't down 1 single drake... definitely sounds like a lack of DPS. If tanks are dieing sounds like both a lack of DPS & either bad healers or bad tanks, really hard to tell without a WWS though.

Neleron
07-06-2009, 06:06 AM
This was very helpful I've seen this done many times and the raid wipes on the walls. Hopefully I can show this to other tanks I know so they can do a better job next time.

Oh, and I noticed someone got kicked from the guild lol.

Keleher
07-31-2009, 04:32 PM
this is truly my favorite fight as a tank :)

doom1992
09-25-2009, 02:35 PM
I am sure this has been asked before, but what happens if you don't kill the additional drakes and just nuke the boss from the start? I have tried this fight quite a few times (mostly on 10 man) and we are very short of tanks, but have around 3.5k - 4k dpsers. I can tank all 3 small drakes at once if I have my own healer and a pally with beacon on me, but for whatever reason, we keep wiping for stupid things, fire walls, healers hit by meteors, main tank getting killed ect. We have tried to nuke the boss before, because of our DPS, we thought we could do it. We don't have any plate wearers other than the two or three tanks we have. (yes we really don't have many tanks). Is it possible though, with our DPS to kill sarth before the fire debuffs start to really do big damage? Or maybe we have to change who tanks what? (ie, me tanking sarth.)

Kazeyonoma
09-25-2009, 02:37 PM
it used to be possible that you could burn the boss down before the 2nd drake landed if you had enough damage. They fixed/patched it so this is no longer possible.

The reason why you can't just ignore the drakes is because 1) they do too much damage to 1 tank if you try to tank all of them + sarth, and 2) because the 2nd drake turns the boss invulnerable at the 75 second mark or so and either the drake or the acolyte (in the portal) must be killed to remove it. (I don't remember which did it).

doom1992
09-25-2009, 02:41 PM
I think you misunderstood something. The tank for sarth isn't tanking anything else, but I am tanking the 3 drakes, and trying to pick up the adds, to little effect, coz I am watching my hp bar all the time, ready to pop cooldowns.

Can the acolyte be tanked by a pet? Like a bear or something? With only 2 tanks as we sometimes have on 10 man, that is the best we can get. ofc neither of the tanks can go in portal coz then that just wipes.

Kazeyonoma
09-25-2009, 02:43 PM
Any plate or feral druid in bear form can probably tank the acolyte, but again, I don't think you can kill sarth without killing the drakes and in a timely manner at that. The raid wide damage would be insane, and you tanking all 3 would not hold out very long with the amount of damage being thrown out.

doom1992
09-25-2009, 02:51 PM
Okay, thanks. It seems I will have to get tough with those that miss flame walls :D

Daimon
09-26-2009, 09:23 AM
You can't hold the 3 drakes and kill Sartharion unless you're doing the zerg, meaning you must kill Sartharion before Shadron appears, Shadron's acolyte shields Sartharion and you do literally no damage to it, that is in 10man, Idk if the zerg applies to 25m tho, but the 10m is still doable, you just need to burn him down under 1:30min or you'll fail. Another thing, at 30% of Sarth the drakes enrage, only a CD will make you survive, is a huge dmg in the tank, Tenebron alone does high dmg let along the other 2 in the OT. We always get the tank killed before sarth is dead, you must bring 1 tank 1 healer (preferably a priest) and 8 dps (everybody must do over 4k) also your group must buff itself, aka all melee or all casters) and you must bring a shammy for heroism/blood lust.

doom1992
09-26-2009, 10:10 AM
Oh, they enrage? I didn't know that. Well, that cancels any chance of nuking it :S. Is it a soft enrage or hard enrage?

Daimon
09-27-2009, 01:04 PM
They do 200% dmg, according to combat log, around 25k melee hit, plus who knows the shadow breaths.

celestialkat
10-13-2009, 10:27 PM
This is driving me ABSOLUTELY INSANE...can someone PLEASE tell me the name of the soundtrack used in the Obsidian Sanctum 3 drakes kill please??

Dafury
10-23-2009, 03:37 PM
What is the name of the addon u used to get al the combat tekst rollod on the side of your char?

chinoquezada
10-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Zerging Sarth25+3 is possible. My guild does it everyweek now. Fun 10mins.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wniek0ahkrcy8b1z/sum/damageDone/?s=10291&e=10403)

Stern
10-25-2009, 07:45 AM
What DPS do you need single target to do Sarth 10 man zerg? Let's say 1 tank and 1 healer 8 dps? I'm bad at calculations

Badanock(Frostmourne)
10-27-2009, 09:50 AM
ok i tried to do that console macro you were talking about and its not working i typed out /console cameradistancemaxfactor 4 and it did nothing can u guys help me fix it

tuffmuffin
10-27-2009, 10:28 AM
What DPS do you need single target to do Sarth 10 man zerg? Let's say 1 tank and 1 healer 8 dps? I'm bad at calculations
Sartharion has 2,510,100 health in 10-man.
Vesperon grants him an additional 25% health bringing that to 3,137,625
Divide that by the amount of time you have to kill him (About 80 seconds iirc), which means you need ~39220 Raid DPS.
Divide that by the number of DPS (8), and everyone needs ~4900 DPS.
If you factor in the tank, you could probably get away with ~4700 DPS.

Flowne!
01-03-2010, 09:35 AM
Hello,
we gonna do OS3D tomorrow raid run ^^. But we gonna do 10 man and in the movie it is 25 man. We also need 3 tanks in 10man?

Fusik
01-03-2010, 06:20 PM
Hello,
we gonna do OS3D tomorrow raid run ^^. But we gonna do 10 man and in the movie it is 25 man. We also need 3 tanks in 10man?

Best way we found for 10man was either Zerg or Normal, or at least normal to us.

We would have one tank pick up everything, while dps just zerged down sarth. Also just use one great raid healer. This method has worked for us each and everytime. So raid make-up would be:

1tank
1Healer
8Dps

The safer way some other guilds do it on our server is with the raid make-up of:

2tanks
1Healer
7 dps

doing the same thing but having the one tank grab all 3 drakes and the MT picking up Sarth while dps just burn down sarth.

Good luck =]

Rennadrel
01-04-2010, 08:28 AM
I did it a couple of nights ago as a zerg fight. Make sure your DPS are pulling 4k or more as it makes the zerg method much easier. My group consisted of 3 pallies, myself being retribution and one who was holy and the other tanking. I have found that for Sarth 3D in 10 man, a well geared prot pally has little issue with aggro, however the one problem we ran into is that Sartharion cleaves for 35k damage plus his melee swings wound up killing our tank when he was at about 25% health. So the best method was for the tank to pop Divine Protection which reduces physical damage by 50% when the boss gets low in health as it really only took about a minute and a half to kill him.

There are some good engaging strategies as well, like pulling the boss with a Crashin Thrashin Racer and letting him despawn, moving to where he normally stands and just tanking him there with your group in close so you won't get hit by lava waves. Our tank was able to pick up the 1st drake and so long as people stayed out of the toilet bowls as we call them, we had no issues with DPS. A warlock was handy for extra stamina with the imp, though we pondered summoning a doom guard for the fight but decided against it. We had no priest or shaman either so it was a matter of blowing all CD's as soon as the tank had aggro. I reckon the first drake was down no longer then 30 seconds before Sartharion was dead.

hameroid
01-04-2010, 01:12 PM
hey bro great vid, umm i was wondering...how do u manage to put ur health and mana bars like that? is that an addon o something? thnx

Kantos
01-05-2010, 06:06 AM
I've recently led an OS 25M 3D. In my opinion, the easier way is to have a paladin and a druid tank, at least 2 hunters, 3 healers, and rest random dps.

We focused 2 healers full time on the MT, while we had the OT(Druid) healed by a shamman.

The druid taunts Tib. and runs in kitty, then when he is as far as possible, he switches back to bear and tanks Tib for the rest of the fight, which is about 20-30s. The entire fight took 80s. With around 60-70% of the raid members surviving. The deaths were to silly things mostly, such as flame wall. They became a little too excited to pay attention to the mechanics of the fight.

Overall, I found that to be rather efficient, and quick method of downing it, and getting yourself that nice title and a chance at the mount.

Horribubble
01-11-2010, 09:01 AM
You can just Zerg Sarth now, there's not much point doing it the old fashioned way.

Kyrocera
03-02-2010, 04:57 AM
The guild im in attempted this last night as a 10 man zerg.

We had

1 healer (pally)
1 tank (warrior)
8 dps

We had a druid taunt and kite Tenebron away from the raid at around 30% of sarths health while dps burn him down.
We managed to get him to about 19% before either the tank or healer died.

Is this the way 10 man can be done? I know it got changed with a later patch.
Or should we use the druid to tank the other drakes?

I cant find an updated strat of 10 man zerg or normal.

Any help is appreciated.

PatrikL
03-03-2010, 08:41 AM
We did it about a month ago with a warrior tank and a druid healer. It took around 56 seconds so I think the tanks cds lasted him through the added damage from Tenebron but since I wasnt tanking myself I am not sure. He did die in the very end before Sarth died (because the healer got so many adds on her) and after us having killed of Tenebron quickly the other two never landed for some odd reason. I have tanked it once since and chaining my cds when the first drake landed kept me alive til Sarth was dead even while tanking both of them.

If I remember the second time correctly one of the plate wearing dps chars used some AoE when the adds came to keep them off the healer and I think this helped the healer a lot from getting constantly pounded upon.

This was all done on 10 man btw as the previous poster asked about.

kaizer
04-21-2010, 10:10 PM
i know this is a old thread but if ciderhelm or anyone else knows what addon on he is using for the chat long and everything on the bottomof the screen i would like to use it.

Reives
09-29-2010, 10:12 PM
This boss was hard



http://wwwafkloot.com

Martie
09-29-2010, 10:18 PM
This boss was hard

I still have fond memories of this fight. Yes, it was hard.