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Zellviren
02-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Without trying to be an ass, I would suggest that and earlier post by Murdog is correct and any aiming at “minimum” raid statistics is misleading. This is for one (glaringly obvious) reason:

A raid is not composed of a single member.

Irrespective of how well/badly geared you are, you will either be compensating for or being compensated by others in the group; in all my forays into Karazhan, I never saw a single raid group that all met the “minimum requirements”, yet, we came across success.

I prefer to look at this way:

Tanks and healers work together – if you have an imba tank, you can get away with an undergeared healer and vice versa (though, 540 Defence Rating is a must).

With DPS, you are likely to always have people who are contributing more and some who are contributing less. If the “minimum” is supposedly 1.6k DPS and you have one or two players who are pumping out 2.2k to 2.3k, you have a lot of spare damage for the characters who are in worse gear.

Murdog was bang on; hitting level 80 is not the prerequisite for raiding. You should go into Naxxramas when you’ve got at least a 78 instance blue or a blue quest reward from Icecrown/Sholazar in every slot. Obviously, running heroics for the level 80 blues and epics is highly recommended, but I’d imagine a full raid of high level rare gear would progress quite quickly through current raid content.

Personally, I just don’t think it needs to be any more complicated than that.

Durandro
02-01-2009, 11:59 PM
I wish everyone had the same opinion. As it is Tanks and Healers get put until a microscope before being selected for Raids, and DPS floods in willy-nilly. A bit annoying really.

But considering they are the most important members of the Raid (sorry DPS), it's understandable. The tank needs to be able to take the hits to begin with, and the healer needs to be able to keep up with the damage levels without OOM'ing instantly.

It just means Tanks and Healers have a harder time gearing up, because all the DPS seems to skip heroics and just Raids off the bat at 80. So I wish they'd actually come and help us out a bit by making heroics actually possible to do (sometimes there's nothing but healers on LFG, I swear).

KuroSaru
02-02-2009, 12:15 AM
This is pritty much how i see things, its normally why, in naxx, os i never have a qarm about newly digned players coming, out of a group of 10-25 there is room for 2-5 new level 80's granted does mean it could take longer but i couldn't careless.

on guy from my guild was testing people and only taking highest dps, best geared healers and tanks with most life, ... so kept taking two druids, to cut a long story short they all kept argueing over who's fault it was they wiped and gave up after an hour..

personally the testing people i think was wrong, if you cnat have fun and a laugh with people your with there is no point going.

Whitegold
02-02-2009, 12:18 AM
Kind of agree, kind of don't. I have no interest in not bringing guildies along because they don't match some arbitrary line of DPS or performance.

The stuff that really matters can't be tested on a counter. Experience on the boss. Not opening up before the tank has agro. Running away from the tank when you pull a mob off him so he can't get it off you. Attacking the wrong target. Bodypulling because you wanted the quest item. Being a loot whore. Getting grumpy because people won't use your strat. Being unaware what's going on around you. Going AFK so everyone has to wait for you.

Besides, I'd rather wipe with people I have fun playing with than plod through a level with some people that treat it like a job. The wipes make better stories later anyway. :D

That being said I'd be concerned by anyone who was looking for the "minimum" all the time. Any of my raiders (and guild in general) wants to get the best, the most damage, to be the best they can. I've yet to hear a hunter say "Nah, I'll pass on that epic. My DPS is good enough." :)

I think the "minimum" to a degree is largely for PUGs. Minimums give a clear line of whether a pug should take you or not. Guilds (at least casual ones like mine) raid with their friends, regardless, and treat the raid as an opportunity to gear them.

As for DPS... yeah, more is better. DPS that can survive longer without stealing MY healer and can do more damage ends the fight before the healers go OOM. Then I die, then we all die. Better DPS challenges tanks, makes us work for it, and makes everyone do better in the end.