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Beerios
02-01-2009, 05:00 AM
---I did a general search and still haven't found what I'm looking for, so my apologies if the answer is out there and I completely missed it.---

Immediately my first though was, that this was an ok talent, after popping out the the calculator all I can figure out is that at 24k armor you're getting 130ish AP from it.

is there something I'm missing and why are people saying ATT is better than Cruelty.

Tharr
02-01-2009, 05:12 AM
3/3 gives you 3ap for every 180 armor, so 24k armor gives 400ap.

Tarkonn
02-01-2009, 07:14 AM
---I did a general search and still haven't found what I'm looking for, so my apologies if the answer is out there and I completely missed it.---

Immediately my first though was, that this was an ok talent, after popping out the the calculator all I can figure out is that at 24k armor you're getting 130ish AP from it.

is there something I'm missing and why are people saying ATT is better than Cruelty.

Read the post above mine...

Are you new to tanking? If so, your build needs a lot of work and you need to get rid of your level 70 gear and your DPS gear.:eek:

shiz98
02-01-2009, 09:44 AM
I dunno, if you're taking DW I would think Cruelty would be the way to go. AttT gives you something like 30 TPS - cruelty will do at least that much.

intolerantape
02-01-2009, 11:54 AM
My reasoning behind taking AttT over Cruelty is that AttT is worth significantly more item value. At 24,000 armor, AttT is worth about 133 AP per point, which is worth about 67 item points. 1% crit is worth 45.91 crit rating, which is worth the same amount of item points. Back at level 70 the difference was even more defined. This is my reasoning, anyway.

Bokeh
02-02-2009, 02:39 AM
I dunno, if you're taking DW I would think Cruelty would be the way to go. AttT gives you something like 30 TPS - cruelty will do at least that much.

AttT is point for point much much better than Cruelty, regardless of wether you have impale/deep wounds or not.

Due to the fact that you get 15% extra crit on all your attacks that matter when tanking (devastate, shield slam, heroic strike, cleave, thunderclap) the extra 3% crit from cruelty is neglegible. On top of that, the extra 400 ap will increase your deep wound damage on top of all your attacks. That, and, Deep wounds is affected by mangle, increasing it's damage by 30% whereas Cruelty doesn't gain anything from raid buffs/debuffs.

Crommi
02-02-2009, 03:58 AM
Damage shields also proc Deep Wounds, so it's very likely to have DW up all the time even with low critrate.

Kojiyama
02-03-2009, 06:03 AM
Point-for-point, Cruelty is the second worst in TPS-increasing talents only to Gag Order. AttT is worth considerably more than Cruelty in terms of TPS increase, even with Deep Wounds/Impale.

In fact, 5 points in Cruelty without AttT vs. 3 points in AttT without Cruelty has roughly the same net TPS change on the character in raid-buffed conditions with Deep Wounds/Impale. (Without DW/Impale, Cruelty is even worse.)

shiz98
02-03-2009, 07:32 AM
AttT is point for point much much better than Cruelty, regardless of wether you have impale/deep wounds or not.
Definitely - in terms of stats per point, AttT is pretty awesome. However, AP just isn't all that great for tank.

Let's look at 400 AP.

Revenge: 16 TPS
Shockwave: 15 TPS
Conc. Blow: 10 TPS
Devastate: 15 TPS
Weapon: 28 TPS
(DW Damage: 21 more damage per crit)

Yes, my initial napkin math was way off :P

Compare that to 3% crit, which nets us the following (assuming 3k AP).
Revenge: 16 TPS
Shockwave: 4 TPS
Conc. Blow: 2.8 TPS
Devastate: 10.44 TPS
Weapon: 11 TPS (This grows as your HS uptime gets better)
Shield Slam: ~12 TPS (Assuming 1k SBV)
Damage Shield: ~2 TPS (Assuming 1k SBV, 50% avoidance, and a 2s boss swing timer)
Additional DW TPS: 7tps

So with a direct threat comparison, AttT gives 19 more TPS, in addition to making your DW hit harder.

So I guess AttT really is superior, on a single target at least. I'm almost positive it will be better against multiple targets; personally, I'll be taking the ~20 TPS loss for better multitarget tanking.

Edit: Was way off on damage shield, and forgot to add the devastate AP threat bonus

Muffin Man
02-03-2009, 05:00 PM
You forgot thunderclap =p. According to my napkin it would work out to be:
+48 dmg for AttT
+19.8 dmg for 3 points cruelty
This assumes 0% base crit, no incite, no improved tc.

I know you said napkin math, but it has to be pointed out that you're doing your comparisons assuming 0% crit.

When you factor in a some crit, you'll see that the AttT numbers get better. On the other hand, the cruelty numbers stay unchanged.

I have an opinion but no math, so I'll just say. It would be interesting to see which makes a bigger contribution to AoE tanking, damage shield or thunderclap?

Since, thunderclap benefits more from AttT, while damage shield only benefits from Cruelty that would determine (maybe) which talent is better for AoE tanking.

shiz98
02-03-2009, 07:35 PM
Yeah, I didn't really bother with TC - for single target tanking it's hitting once every 25 seconds or so, which means that the difference will be something like 1 or 2 TPS between AttT and cruelty. Pure laziness :)

And you are totally right on the crit - it vaguely crossed my mind while I was doing this that crits might give AttT an edge, but I never actually stopped to think about it long enough to realize that yeah, there would be a difference. Doh!

Anyway, I believe your average chance to crit per GCD is something like 22%. If we apply that to the overall TPS gain from AttT (don't you just love napkin math? it lets you get away with crazy stuff...), the new difference is 38 TPS.

mafioso5789
02-13-2009, 06:54 AM
What if I was to put 3 in attt and 2 in cruelty? Seems a waste to add only 2 but it IS a crit increase...Either 2 in cruelty or 2 in focused rage?

shiz98
02-13-2009, 10:00 AM
I usually run with Deep Wounds, 3/3 AttT, and 2/5 Cruelty. That should be the highest TPS build out there.

mafioso5789
02-16-2009, 06:18 AM
Thank you. Ima need to put out some extra threat...we are all progressing and raiding every week. Guilies are getting new gear and putting out more dps. It aint gettin easy

Beerios
02-24-2009, 09:06 AM
Sooo much theory crafting... I should have just asked for a link to the best Threat build and put my head in the sand :P

Maybe I'm still stuck in BC mode, but I love getting 5k Shield slams, and seperating myself from the undergeared dps while tanking.

I'm going to do some digging on the site and see what I can come up with. Right now I'm doing 3/3 AttT and 2/5 Cruelty, also for Fury 5/5 Demo shout since it seems I'm the only warrior in raids and the fury warriors never use it.

clavarnway
02-25-2009, 11:30 AM
Sooo much theory crafting... I should have just asked for a link to the best Threat build and put my head in the sand :P

Maybe I'm still stuck in BC mode, but I love getting 5k Shield slams, and seperating myself from the undergeared dps while tanking.

I'm going to do some digging on the site and see what I can come up with. Right now I'm doing 3/3 AttT and 2/5 Cruelty, also for Fury 5/5 Demo shout since it seems I'm the only warrior in raids and the fury warriors never use it.

Hi man! I'm from your server, and Horde side too...what are the odds? :P

edit: And same race and professions! :O

Anyway AttT is much better than Cruelty for the points. AP affects almost everything we do now (Shield Slam being a big exception). Our abilities scale pretty awesomely with AP, and AttT gives a bucketload of it for the points spent. I definitely recommend maxing it out before you touch Cruelty.

You can whisper me in game if you ever have any tank questions.

Cupples
02-27-2009, 05:48 AM
I'm going to do some digging on the site and see what I can come up with. Right now I'm doing 3/3 AttT and 2/5 Cruelty, also for Fury 5/5 Demo shout since it seems I'm the only warrior in raids and the fury warriors never use it.

Putting 5 points in DS is a huge waste in talent points if you are spec'd prot. That means you're probably not gonna get deep wounds or shockwave, and you'll be losing a lot of TPS. It's a good talent, but there are much better places to spend these 5 points.

shiz98
02-27-2009, 11:07 AM
It's a good talent, but there are much better places to spend these 5 points.
Depends on what you're going for; survivability is nice, and threat is fairly cheap these days. It's probably not the best idea in every situation, but that doesn't mean it's a sub-optimal spec.

Glomgore
02-28-2009, 05:39 AM
If your looking for more info, try searching for a topic titled AttT VS Cruelty.

Overall standings say AttT is better, as cruelty loses it's value with the higher crit you have, (15% to Dev, SS, Rev via talents).

Not to mention that AttT affects Conc Blow, TC, Shockwave, among other things.

While Imp Demo shout is nice, as the content stands, this is a threat/dps tier, not an avoidance, spend yer points over in arms to push some more T/D PS

Beerios
03-03-2009, 08:49 PM
big Ups to Smashy for saying hi :D

I started playing with my talent tree again,

I scrapped Vigilance and Concuss, did 3/3 AttT and 4/5 Cruelty

Started reading through one of the guides on here discussing the ups and downs of LK talents and doing a whole different build. Really liking the TPS on it, and no one's able to pull off aggro now, except my OT Prot Paladin while trashing.

Link to my Current Build
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?tal=350200002000000000000000000000304 00000000000000000000000005335122500000252033011332 1)

If deep wounds is a really big +TPS I'd scratch 2/2 Revenge and 3/5 Cruelty for it.