View Full Version : Naxx: unsuited to DKP?

01-31-2009, 02:03 AM
So, we have an odd problem.

My guild is running DKP because the only EP/GP mod that's public doesn't work because we can't let it erase our officer notes.

We've already decided there is NO way we're letting our naxx table carry over into Ulduar because we've run Naxx 3 times and people are 1 dkp away from 100 dkp. we award 2 dkp per boss kill, 2 for on time, 2 for staying to the end. Minimum bid is 2 dkp, and we use a silent "Bid what it's worth" system to avoid bidding wars/bid manipulation.

That said, Most people are bidding a fair amount, but we have a huge lopside in that a good chunk of us just haven't had much to bid on... so our dkp is through the roof. one of our dps warriors had gear coming in so he's sitting at 99 dkp. (much to the dismay of all the other 2H DPS because he has a 60 dkp lead on them all and they all want the 2H axe off KT if it drops)

This got me to wondering - this place bloats DKP in a way no other instance I've seen does. Loot is skewed to certain class/specs, while others just accumulate DKP and duke it out for tier tokens when they drop.

Is there an effective solution for dealing with the dkp table in scenarios like this? This is our third week and signs are the bloat is just going to get worse...

01-31-2009, 05:01 AM
If you're getting inflation then you need to decrease the points going into the system. We have a tiered system where some bosses get more 'kill' points than others, and we adjust them to balance out the 'income' and 'expenditure' sides so that the system stays balanced and stable without inflation.

01-31-2009, 05:56 AM
Multiply all your numbers by 10, then use a weekly decay of 10% should work.

EPGP has been working fine in Naxx for us, but you will still have the issue that the most geared people eventually end up with nothing to spend points on, and therefore way ahead on the priority list, as they should be.

02-01-2009, 09:05 AM
This got me to wondering - this place bloats DKP in a way no other instance I've seen does. Loot is skewed to certain class/specs, while others just accumulate DKP and duke it out for tier tokens when they drop.

IMO, It's more an effect of 25m Naxx gear being only slightly higher in iLvl than the 10m raids, than anything else. So people aren't needing every single item as a large upgrade, which means they don't feel the need to cash in on all the small stuff. End result: you get people stocking up on points to get big-ticket items.

Lots of points isn't a problem by itself; it's only a problem if your loot system can't handle it. As long as you can use those points to mediate conflicts over whose turn it is, you're good to go.

If you're really looking for a way to deflate point values, consider using point decay, or scaling min bids, or something along those lines.

02-01-2009, 09:17 AM
i have used officer assigned loot for 3 years now and it works wonder's if u have a firm structure of a guild. most fair system u can have u are able to take into account every aspect of loot and who gets it.

i know that doesn't answer your question but may be something u want to try for uldar. every officer has a vote who ever has the highest votes for said piece of loot gets it. no rolling what so ever. even if its a tie. someone must win and thats how we do it.

02-01-2009, 10:16 AM
Assuming you take old content off the raid schedule when new content arrives, just reset your DKP with a 10:1 or 20:1 seeding when Ulduar arrives. Keeps the same relative order without the inflated values.

02-01-2009, 10:17 AM
IMO, It's more an effect of 25m Naxx gear being only slightly higher in iLvl than the 10m raids, than anything else.

This is 100% true. The new 10/25 system is going to cause a lot of problems with guilds that use standard DKP systems unless you have mechanisms in place that make point hoarding not worthwhile. This is one of the primary reasons we switched to EPGP.

02-01-2009, 11:53 PM
For now, I think we're leaning towards no DKP for Naxx and current content but implementing a DKP system for Ulduar.

02-02-2009, 05:15 AM
We use a DKP system for Naxx25, but just rolling in the 10-man.

We have values for the bosses set to 5dkp (for the easiest ones), 10dkp (standard value) and 15 dkp (like Sapph and KT). First-kill bonus is awarded of 5dkp. Minimum bids are 5 dkp. The dkp is capped at 300dkp. If you want to bid for off-spec, the max you can go is 15 dkp. If a main spec wants it bad enough, he'll have to bid at least 20 dkp. Everyone (trials too) start of with a base of 50 dkp, so they can start spending straight away. The only exception to the standard rules is our "bracket-system" for tier-tokens.
We have brackets going up in 50s, starting at [100-149], [150-199], [200-249], [250-299], [300]. If a token drops, the relevant classes are looked up in the highest bracket and are called out. They then state whether they want it or pass on it. The people that want it in that bracket roll for the item, which goes to the winner for a fixed price of 100dkp, effectively dropping them 2 brackets. Its not neccesarily the case that all the tier items go to ppl in the top bracket, because the people in that bracket are usually the ones not really needing anything anymore, and therefore having higher dkp then everyone else. Other than this we have no loot-restrictions, its free bidding, allthough we give hints if people are being noobish (like saying: "[item] - please bid for this nice HEALING trinket" :P)
We have used this system since MC times, experimenting with different brackets, different tier prices, caps, etc, but we still like it, and it still works.

You can experiment with different base dkp values, or not use it at all...or giving trials only half the base dkp, and giving them the other half when being promoted to full member..we havent seen the need for that, because they will hardly ever have more dkp then the full members have.
If you need to take pugs to make up the numbers, you can always give them a set amount of 25 dkp for the entire run (so no boss dkp), that they can spend as well. This will make it more interesting for puggers in a guild raid as well, instead of having no shot at all at loot.

02-07-2009, 01:29 AM
I think the problem is that most guilds are swamped in epics atm and the upgrades from crafted->heroic's->10mans->25mans are to small as someone pointed out earlier.

If you do both 10 and 25 man content your guild gets what.. over 100 epics a week? Add crapetd/heroic and badge gear on top of that and your dkp system will take a kneestand. Our guild just descided to roll for stuff... ad a little common descancy to the /roll sytem and it works great.

02-07-2009, 05:29 AM
Just make everyone lose 50DKP.

Problem solved.

(somebody had to say it...)

02-07-2009, 10:28 AM
Increase the minimum bid required, and set tiers for the items, for example tier tokens min bid of 25, Weapons 20 other armor 15, You can always bid min dkp even if negative. And honestly if some one wants to save up their dkp for the first drop of an item, thats kinda the purpose of dkp.

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That my guilds dkp listing, as you can see we have some people in the 600's and some people in the 100's, but its still a fair system becuase the people that are in the 500-600 range have been to ever raid since lk came out. They should get the gear before some one that has been to 2 raids. For uldar our plans is to allow people to cash in naxx dkp for uldar dkp at a 10:1 ratio (possibly higher) once a month.

02-07-2009, 12:31 PM
The kind of people that want to hoard DKP for that one shiny drop, instead of helping the raid and progressing their gear along the way, are generally not the kind of people you want in your raid. That's just my 2c.

02-07-2009, 02:01 PM
Thats why they can take items they dont realy want for min, and big bid for the items they do want

02-08-2009, 05:05 AM
The kind of people that want to hoard DKP for that one shiny drop, instead of helping the raid and progressing their gear along the way, are generally not the kind of people you want in your raid. That's just my 2c.

In many situations, this isn't the case. People who have been there everytime since the beginning will naturally have a big lead over new guys and for some roles the average price for items can be quite different. For example, I'm currently on top of the dkp list for our guild and it's only because, funny enough, I haven't had enough dkp to buy those few items I'm missing until the point where no one else needs then and I can just pick them up for minimum bid.

We have an interesting situation where tanks are pretty much going "all-out". Average price for dps or healing gear tends to be in 10-40dkp range, but tanking stuff is around 30-70dkp with Last Laught currently holding the title of most expensive purchase yet with whooping 135dkp pricetag.

02-09-2009, 03:24 AM
We introduced a dkp cap.
And a lot of people are capped already.
When dkp is equal attendance counts and if that is also the same a roll.

02-09-2009, 01:55 PM
Our raiding group is trying to figure this out now for ourselves. We currently use /roll and a master looter for everything (with main-spec having first dibs).

We have a core group of say 18 people, and we're trying to recruit, but every time we pug the 7-8 people we need to run naxx-25 we let them /roll on everything too, otherwise why would the pugs have come to the run.

For the time being, until we have 25 regular people dkp seems counter-productive, because how will we flll the pug spots if the loot rule is, you need dkp to participate unless nobody wants the drop. Admitted, the pug would earn dkp on the night of, and so be able to bid by say the third or fourth boss, but is that enough?

At the same time, how irritated would I be if a pug tank /rolled on Last Laugh and won after I've MT'ed and lead every 25-man run we've ever done and still not seen it drop?

Any suggestions, or experience with how to admin fair loot systems in a guild/group that hasn't quite made the leap to 25 regular raiders?

02-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Honestly I've become pretty disenfranchised with DKP in WotLK. We switched to a loot council system primarily because it's easier for everyone, have had 0 complaints. Boss dies, we take 2 minutes to figure out loot, and move on.

Occasionally there'll be some best in slot item that zomg we've been farming for months and it just now dropped, so we end up taking a little longer, but since that generally only happens on end bosses anyway it hasn't been a big deal.

02-09-2009, 04:20 PM
Any suggestions, or experience with how to admin fair loot systems in a guild/group that hasn't quite made the leap to 25 regular raiders?

Simplest answer: use whatever works best for you and your guild. If your members are happy with random, then by all means use that; it's about as simple as you can get on loot systems.

If you wish to use a point system while also having PUG players, you can include them in the stored history; just treat their points the same as any normal guild member. Can help encourage repeat attendance, and possibly lead to guild recruits as well. ;)

Loot council is probably not a good choice when bringing random PUG players along, since they'll most likely end up marginalized (either intentionally or not).

02-10-2009, 01:45 AM

We currently have everything bar sarth 3d on farm, and have used loot council and have reasonably fair and honest officers, which make a point of disstributing out to the guild rather than an officers first thingy. which is good and has worked well.

But since we are having attendance issues with sarth 3d we have been thinking about implementing a dkp push for sarth 3d and uldar. Has anyone else thought of this?

02-10-2009, 11:02 AM
We on the other hand have changed. We started BC using a loot council system with rolls, most loot was rolled for while tier gear was given out via loot council (25 man content only, 10 man was open rolls with eyes open for lootwhoring).

When we started in Hyjal and BC we used a form of Suicide Kings, points were earned per boss kill and hour of progression attempts and you spent all your points if you chose to buy an item. If noone wanted to spend points people rolled for it. While this was good for a while it ended up with the same issues that I see in a 'bid as much as you feel its worth' system, one person would get to pay 5 dkp for an item while next week someone else pays 80 for the same item. While the points don't really have a value there's a period of time where you're taking no loot to get that many points so effectively there is a time value on them.

Heading into Naxx we decided to change back to a DKP system but we wanted it to be fast (someone mentioned 2 minutes sorting out loot, that's too long.....adding at least half an hour onto our clear just to work out who gets gear is sucking up our raid time) and a little more fair.

We are now using a relational dkp system where current dkp = earned/spent. It basically changes the order in which people get loot over time, making it a little fairer on newcomers.

The big thing we implemented is that ALL drops taken for main specs are to be bought with points, no more passing and rolling. This does mean that we see a few more DEs than we used to but it means people are thinking a lot more about what would really be an upgrade whereas in the past a side-grade or small upgrade would get rolled on anyway even if someone else needed it for a huge upgrade.

Also all pieces have set values depending on slot, hunters have different values for melee and ranged weapons (eg melee 2H is 150, hunter ranged weapon is 125, melee ranged is 25, hunter 2H is 50).

This has been working well so far but over a long timeline the changes in DKP will have little effect on the ratios. When we head into Ulduar we'll be resetting the earned DKP back to about 20 and adjusting everyones spent DKP to keep their ratio the same (at least for the first drop). This sort of resets DKP so at the same time we have a wishlist points system running across all content, 1 points per boss kill, on reaching 60 points you can put dibs on an item no matter what your current DKP is.

At the moment everyone's happy and we're not seeing any inflation (all DKP is zerosum).