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View Full Version : A use for parry?



Foolishness
01-29-2009, 09:22 AM
Ill do the TLDR version first.

Parry + multiple mobs + glyph of cleaving = almost guaranteed significant speed increase on cleaves leading to significant increase in AOE tanking effectiveness?

I remember people did the maths on parry to compare it to haste late BC. However things have changed since then and we are multi tanking much more and warriors are expected to keep aggro on entire groups.

If your parry chance is around 20%, and you are tanking multiple mobs (say 4 or more), there's a very high chance of you parrying an attack every couple of seconds.

Now considering cleave hits 2 extra targets now, your getting 3 times the benefit you would have had on a white attack or heroic strike.

Now the higher your parry chance, your more likely you are to have a parry early during your swing timer to get the most out of it. And if you are using a slow weapon you may be more likely to get parries on every swing against multiple mobs.

So in the end, i'm not advocating anyone to gear for parry, but if you think about it this way, it might not be such a bad thing to have a little extra on a multi mob trash tanking kit if that's what you have, even if the diminishing returns are much higher. Also makes that repulsion trinket look a bit more attractive. Especially if you use it in conjunction with a block trinket as you pull 6 mobs.

Xav
01-29-2009, 12:01 PM
You'd have to go from like 20% parry to 50% parry to even notice a difference. That's also impossible.

Parry is useless.

Desmurick
01-29-2009, 12:26 PM
Agreed. Also, if you take into account that you're talking about tanking trash, you're MUCH better off stacking DPS stats, crit, str, and, of course, SBV. For pure threat, as well as overall dps while tanking, there are a lot better options out there. Shoot for maxing your hit/expertise for trash, stacking a ton of SBV, and tossing in crit trinkets/gear wherever you can afford to while still being crit immune for trash (535) and you'll notice a much bigger dps and TPS boost then you would from parry stacking. I have the repulision trinket and I've tried it on trash pulls. It's significantly less effective then simply using mirror of truth, for example.

Andenthal
01-29-2009, 04:11 PM
Now considering cleave hits 2 extra targets now, your getting 3 times the benefit you would have had on a white attack or heroic strike.

Should note that this is only if you have the Glyph of Cleaving.

Foolishness
01-29-2009, 05:54 PM
like i said at the bottom, i dont advocate gearing for parry, im just saying maybe it has more use than dodge in a multitanking scenario. If you are not sacrificing anything else worthwhile for it, then why not use it? Would heavily depend on what gear options you have.

xav, if your parry was at 50%, your attack rate would almost be permanently halved against multiple mob packs, which is obviously one of the reasons they put such a high price on it. If your parry is 15%, and you take it to 22%, then thats a 32% increase in the frequency of your parries, which i think is fairly significant.

And as far as being able to 'tell a difference' can you honestly tell the difference between being 1% away from hit cap? or having 2% less cirt?

My trash kit is hit capped, high expertise, high block value and high block rating.

However, what im saying is, parry might be more of an effective stat than dodge for a trash tanking kit if you have a choice. The difference between 15% parry and 22% parry is only 7%, but when you are being hit by 6 mobs, 7% x 6 every 2 seconds is many more parry procs at more convinient times.


Currently with my trash kit min-maxed, tweaking my parry is probably the only thing i can go to tweak my output, considering i have already maxed out all the other threat stats on my gear.

I wouldn't be happy putting parry in the useless bin, until someone can show a mathematical model or some wws parses with a 5-10% parry difference to see how much the DPS increase is.

Kreya
01-29-2009, 06:27 PM
rage would be an issue with increased cleaves. unless you have BoS :)

Foolishness
01-29-2009, 08:30 PM
rage generally isnt an issue when you have like 5 dudes beating on you. Please keep in mind that im talking about a scenario when you are tanking a big pack of mobs. For example pulling deathknight groups in military quarter.

The idea is that many attacks = many parries

obviously for single target or even 2-3 targets theres not gonna be much benefit.

Dakki
01-30-2009, 03:42 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but when are you going to be tanking whole packs of trash in Naxx but not bosses?

You'd essentially need an extra gear set to do this (and some glyphing!) and there's inevitably going to be a difference between your "serious" boss-tanking set and your "lolcleave" trash set. You'd have to be geared extremely well for both to be seeing a significant difference, right? But how many guilds out there are so done with Naxx that they can afford to equip their tanks with whole redundant sets of tanking gear?

Your raid would probably be better off sharding the stuff and using the crystals for enchants, rather than giving it to you to play with here.

Desmurick
01-31-2009, 03:27 PM
Foolishness, if you're point is to say that parry is better then dodge for trash since it increases your dps some, then yes, I agree. But what I've found in my gear set for trash, which is hit and expetise capped, is that its ALWAYS better to use another gear peice alltogether instead of one with high parry. There is a peice of gear for almost every slot that has SBV and SBR on it, and we both know how awesome SBV is for trash, both as damage increase and mitigation. Apart from that, when you can spare it, I still think its best to swap out a tank peice for a pure dps peice, which naturally wont have any parry on it at all. When I tank trash right now I currently use the DPS warriror chest peice due to its huge crit rating and hit rating. The other reason for this is that theres no chest peice in game that specifically has SBV on it, at least not at the level 80 gear level. So, even though I agree that yes, parry would give you a dps boost, I still think you'll see an even bigger dps boost by simply using a peice of gear with no tanking stats on it at all and only pure dps stats on it.

Point being, once you're easily defense capped, I advocate swapping out any gear slot that you don't have an SBV peice for with a pure dps peice instead. Doing that I've managed to get my crit to 13%, while being hit and expertise capped for trash, and having an SBV value of 1600 with an SBR rating of apx 30%. Suffice to say, it's awesome against trash.

Foolishness
02-01-2009, 08:26 PM
Actually Dakki, I have multiple gear sets which are always kept in my bags. In fact i thought most tanks would. I use itemrack to change between entire sets instantly.

When I gear for for trash, i place hit cap, block value and block rating and expertise as a priority. I would never choose parry over any of these stats.

One example i can think of where i use parry in my trash kit is the parry trinket from saphiron 25's. Rune of repulsion or something. I use that in conjunction with the blue block rating trinket for tanking trash. My only other option would be to use a pure dodge, stam or crit trinket.

I'm not suggesting gearing for parry is good, im just saying if you happen to have some, then perhaps it's not so bad and it might actually contribute towards something. The significance of this is that parry is not normally ideal for avoidance because the diminishing returns are so high.

As far as using DPS pieces for trash is concerned, I have found that defense is not easy to come by, even with access to the highest level gear. In fact the time when I the had most excess defense was when i had recently hit 80 and was wearing crafted saronite blues. These days I have to tweak everything carefully everytime i change a few slots around.

Juon
02-01-2009, 09:40 PM
It would indeed be very interesting if we use parry mechanics the same way as expertise : essentially synergising both survivability and threat/dps output at the same time.

One thing to note : using parry mechanics as a form of ias still depends on a "window" on the swing.

Can we run some tests to see if a faster or slower swing weapon will benefit more?
Then, after quantifying the actual "bang per buck" of parry, how does it compare to SBV in terms of aoe tps increase?

The glyph of cleaving will also mean 1 less major glyph used for boss.

Bokeh
02-02-2009, 03:44 AM
Personally i think getting the extra parry would be such a minimal increase that it's not worth using as much of your iLvl on parry. If you want extra threat, gear for block rating and block value, gem for strength.

The extra damage gained on not only your cleaves but also your thunderclaps, shield slams and shockwaves would far outweigh the minimal amount of extra threat your cleave generates due to parry hasting, and on top of that you get more passive damage on your damage shield, plus you take less damage because your block value is significantly higher.

Rhyseh
02-02-2009, 10:32 PM
OK I just did some quick calculations using Satrina's formula, please correct me if I'm wrong, but to get 10% extra parry on top of your base (talents, racials, whatever is applicable), without any defense, you would need ~600 parry rating. To jump another 10% you would need ~1100 parry rating.

Also considering parry caps at 44% (you will need THOUSANDS of parry rating to get there) I would conclude that this theory is far from viable.