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Garbid
01-28-2009, 04:01 PM
Farming 25man content to no end, with 70% of the loot going to offspec and 10% being dissed. Gets boring fast. We are "casual" guild who made it through sunwell and killed Kil'jaeden. We schedule 3 nights a week for 25man raiding and require our raiders to attend only to two of them.

Been trying to get my guild to do Achievement runs to make it interesting again, even so to wipe whole nights if need to to matter to get stuffs like Shocking and the like. We have so many socials in guild, and alts, and easy to pug 5-10 people as needed, we always get a second 25man naxx going.

Last night we had Malygos + Sarth3drakes planned (to laggy to do Naxx on wednesdays). After getting in ~16 raiders, filling 7 spots with socials and have 1-2 raiders respec to fill a different role, I decided to make a stand.

If you wanna be a RAIDER, step up and be ready to raid hard mode. How badass are you if "hard mode" scares you off ? Plenty of people wanna become raider and we've declined them cause we are drowning in applicants, yet we don't get enough RAIDERS online for achievement runs.

If you only want easy-mode free epics, then step down to social rank and don't hinder us RAIDERS in progressing. If we don't step up to do hard-mode stuff, we go soft, loose interest and in the end loose focus, starting a chain reaction causing more wipes and getting more people frustrated etc.


I disbanded the raid.


Maybe I'm here for moral support, or maybe just a rant. But I wonder if anyone else has been in my situation.

blackhand
01-28-2009, 05:08 PM
Sounds like your wants aren't the same as the rest the guild. If they want a more casual raid set up and you don't you have a problem.

Bodasafa
01-28-2009, 08:31 PM
People view achievements in different ways. Some think what you get out of achievements is worth what you put in. Others do not.

Lets look at the pros and cons here.

Pros:
- A Title
- A Mount

Cons:
- Epic Repair Bills
- Countless Wipes
- Frustration
- Overall Time spent

Now for me the cons outweigh the pros. I personally don't think spending my free time wiping, being frustrated and spending a lot of gold on repairs is a good time. I don't think its worth a title no one will probably ever look at. The mount has a draw with the added speed bonus, but I still don't think its worth all that I would have to put in. Now if your guild is willing to foot the bill by offering up guild repairs for these runs that could change things a bit.

Im a raid lead and a main tank for my guild and I would not think any less of our raiders if they did not want to come on an achievement run because I know the cost.

Progression to me is clearing all the current content. It appears that your guild has already done that. I would say a GRATS! is in order for your raiders not a demoralizing speech because they don't want to do achievements.

My 2 copper.

Murdog
01-28-2009, 08:38 PM
Achievments ARE progression now, Cause clearing the instance is deffinatly not.

Bulk
01-29-2009, 12:06 AM
Sarth+3D is more than an achievement run, some of the better gear only drops with 2/3 drakes up.

orcstar
01-29-2009, 04:10 AM
Achievements are the only progression in game at the moment.

The way I view a game is this: Blizzard (well any gamemaker) presents you with a challenge and the objective is to overcome this challenge.
The achievements are challenges to be overcome. They're a lot different from the "killing the boss" as the last step of progression.
At the moment, a lot more guilds then before raid and kill everything in game. They have access to all the same loot as the other guilds.

Not a lot of guilds have all the achievements. With everyone having access to all the same gear, achievements are THE thing to set yourself apart, because that's where the skill begins to kick in.

Others have very different goals. Most often that is: "collecting as much epics as possible." My goals are dfferent and I can't grasp that mentality. While I like gear, (especially if it matches) I only see it as the tools to get through the challenges.

minrog
01-29-2009, 05:48 AM
I like winning. I care not at all for achievements and titles but I like doing things that are challenging and figuring out how to beat the holy hell out of them. I care even less for the forced-obsolescence gear and rep treadmill.

If you said "I want to beat Sarth3d 10 man" I'd build the gear set and take the time and pay the repairs to do it. I wouldn't display the title and I'd probably pass on the mount drop but I'd show up because I enjoy the winning part.

Not everyone plays for the same reasons as I do. Some guys want epeen epic gear, some people are achievers and list checkers, other people fart around on 30 bajillion alts. If you're having trouble because the ideologies are conflicted then you need to purge everyone who plays for a different reason, quit worrying about your needs, or find a guild that matches your own ideology. I don't really see a way around it.

Garbid
01-29-2009, 08:33 AM
It's not about the Achievements them selves. It's about making stuff challenging and fun again. We already got raiders who can't be bothered to show up on raidnights and try to find excuses not to log on cause they are bored to death.

Naxx was easy 2 months ago, and today it's like farming BRD for epics. Mindless grinding.

greendragonempire
01-29-2009, 08:46 AM
If i have time to do it I will. There's not much else beyond that.

Achievements are definitely not worth skipping drinks on a friday night.

Garbid
01-29-2009, 09:58 AM
If i have time to do it I will. There's not much else beyond that.

Achievements are definitely not worth skipping drinks on a friday night.
Who said anything about that ?

Going for hardmode optional content when it's within your grasp and asking for 2 nights a week out of 3 scheduled raid night, how is that even remotely hardcore ? Like I said in my post on out guilds forum, if you can't commit to two freaking nights a week that aren't as boring like BRD farming, then you shouldn't be a RAIDER, when there is an option of going for social rank and get your free easy epic with our second run.

Am I talking in riddles or do people just assume 1 thing and decide thats what I've written ? Guess looking at headline one can easily assume I'm asking for 4-5 raidnights per week and forbid people to go out on friday nights o_O With the easymode content today how can you honestly believe that?

I'll quote my post from our guild forums:


Some are happy farming epix, and some just like it easy. Yet some of us actually like it hard and rough and want the bragging rights the achievements give. Mixing those two are never a good thing.

Something tells me Ojo and a few more people are gonna misunderstand my phrase of "some people liking it hard!".

Those who like it hard get bored in easy "epix-farming" runs and eventually stop showing up or loose focus along with interest. And those who like it easy tend to be less focused when they are needed to for achievements.

As a RAIDER you are expected to like it hard. It says in the guild rules you are expected to know tactics, be ready (have your skype turned off, bought your gf a vibrator) and have consumables for raids. That means flasks/elixirs and foodbuffs, and other nifty pots.

There are too many people who like to become a RAIDER for those who got the rank to actually take it for granted. So to give you guys a heads up: 25man Raids for the raider core, will from now on be focused on ACHIEVEMENTS. If that's not for you then try aiming for the alt runs rather then hindering the rest of the raiders in achieving our goals.

Immortal title, various proto-drakes, extra loot on Sartharion and more. Honing our skills to be more productive when Ulduar hits instead of have to fight some earned lazyness to get us off our feets first.

Your moma never told you "if it's worth doing it's worth doing well" ?

KenjiWB
01-29-2009, 10:16 AM
I think you're making the mistake of defining Raiders to fit what you want it to be. A raid is just a dungeon you run with more people, it doesn't make you a better player or more 1337.

If anything, your idea of a 'true' raider should be ecstatic over the addition of achievements because now you have more ways to flex your epeen over just wearing gear that other people don't have (couldn't get in the past).

If it truly is about the challenge, the content and the gear shouldn't matter, Blizzard spoon fed the hardcore crowd with plenty of itemized things to do and it sounds to me like you just need to find a group of like-minded achievers to sate your hunger.

The fact is, this is a game, and now the content is open to everyone, I fail to see how that's a bad thing. There was a time when 'raiding' old school Strat, Scholo, or LBRS was common place. Even after they placed limits, a raid of UBRS was crazy fun. No one was complaining that "Gen Drak is too easy we're bored." (this was way before anyone thought MC could even be done btw).

So, I for one hope the trend continues throughout 3.X, I'm havin a blast raiding again, and I hope Blizzard doesn't go back catering to 1% of their customers.

PS - A 'casual' guild doesn't kill Kil'jaeden.

Garbid
01-29-2009, 11:13 AM
I think you're making the mistake of defining Raiders to fit what you want it to be. A raid is just a dungeon you run with more people, it doesn't make you a better player or more 1337.
Let me explain how I define RAIDER. It's a rank in our guild that gives you priority into progress raids and priority on loot in those raids. We have two other ranks, social and more social.
Raider is a dedicated player who wants more then to log and watch tv while pressing his buttons in a raid. Have you ever done anything that needed focus ? It's a big different than pressing random buttons mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again, with no change in sight for the next 2 months.



If it truly is about the challenge, the content and the gear shouldn't matter, Blizzard spoon fed the hardcore crowd with plenty of itemized things to do and it sounds to me like you just need to find a group of like-minded achievers to sate your hunger.
This guild I'm in is "centered" around people like me, who just wanna log on few times a week and achieve something more then your average kara-type farming. What I'm pissed at is people like you who think that's how the game should be played. If your a crappy player, then that's how you should play. If you like challenge then the "optional hardmode" is available. Problem is the guild was started by like-minded people, but bad habits have sunk in and people who used to be solid players are slacking and un-focuesd, just because they are bored, and when trying to do achievements to get rid of the bore, half disagrees and just want epics.


The fact is, this is a game, and now the content is open to everyone, I fail to see how that's a bad thing.
I didn't say that was a bad thing, you just have to look differently at the game.
It's in your power to make the game interesting again if you want to, and today that's ACHIEVEMENTS. Would there have been less misunderstanding if I'd have swapped out the word ACHIEVEMENT for HARDMODE ?

IMO if your afraid of Achievements becoming too time consuming or too hard for you, then what the hell are you doing in a "end-game" raiding guild when any casual pvp guild does the same for you.

It's Blizzards way of letting everyone enjoy the game, including the bad players, by making content "easy" with an "optional hard mode". But when solid players get stuck with "easy" mode content cause you keep failing at hard-mode, people either get soft or loose interest.



PS - A 'casual' guild doesn't kill Kil'jaeden.
We raided 3 nights a week, started on Hydross (when most guilds had cleared BT and were waiting on Sunwell). Steady 3 nights a week until we hit Sunwell. We added 1 extra "alt/pug/social" run on sundays for MH and lower instance clears, but kept 3 nights for BT/SWP (Mu'ru died on 1 night of tries for example). But I guess you think yourself as a "casual" player and probably "you" couldn't have killed Kil'jaeden, but in my books "casual" means less attendance to allow for real life, and it definitely doesn't mean bad. That was in the days where hardcore were considered 4-6 nights a week with 90% attendance (we had 66%, and on average had 3-5 social unprepared, under geared people for our SWP raids). Me for example only had 75% attendance due to my work. Not enough to get into any "hardcore" guild, just a "good" casual guild.

Bodasafa
01-31-2009, 06:27 PM
Look, what this really comes down to is your not happy with how things are going in your current guild. You basically have 4 options:

1) Use any influence you have in the guild to change the way things are going.
2) Accept things as they are and roll with it.
3) Find another guild.
4) Stop playing the game.

Plain and simple there it is.

Clav
02-03-2009, 05:49 AM
Gather the interested people into 10 man achievement runs.

greendragonempire
02-03-2009, 07:18 AM
We raided 3 nights a week,

. We added 1 extra "alt/pug/social" run on sundays for MH and lower instance clears, but kept 3 nights for BT/SWP (Mu'ru died on 1 night of tries for example). But I guess you think yourself a

3 nights a week with a 4th for your ahrdcore is anything but casual, that is 4/7 days of the week buddy

casual is logging on sat afternoons hoping there are people on for 10man naxx

Philistine
02-03-2009, 07:36 AM
I agree with Bodasafa (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/bodasafa.html) here I think. 3 Raids a week into 25 man content is borderline hardcore. You can run a casual guild with 3 raids planned but the reality is that you may end up with only 2 raids running or more likely go down to 1 as people dont sign for all the raids and not enough sign up for each night.

The best thing to do would be to pick your ideal team and approach the players and say look lets try for this achievement on this raid night are you up for it?

Dovienya
02-03-2009, 01:27 PM
Btw it does not sound like your raiders just want epics. They are probably just bored of naxx and mindlessly farming the place.

Honelorr
02-04-2009, 05:57 AM
TBH, I can't totally sympathise with the OP. At the end of the day, rerunning old content for achievement is not new content, it's just recycling old content. People are bored of old content. Difficulty level makes no difference.

My guild is probably straddling the casual/hardcore line- we have a large social element, but also a raiding group that were 2/6 SWP before 3.0, and have killed Sarth+3 etc. We have a lot of ppl (including myself) who don't see the value or motivational aspect in achievements. And a lot of them would rightly resent me if I accused them of not wanting to be raiders when they've been there for endless wipe night etc, just because they didn't want to do achievement runs.

I agree with what someone above me said- if the guild don't share your viewpoint, then either assimilate to them or look elsewhere.

Powhound
02-04-2009, 09:07 AM
We're in the same situation. Burning down Naxx again and again for no particular reason. Still many achievements to do but no real motivation to do them. I'd much rather work on new content then try to defeat Thaddius with a smaller raid.

We won't another expansion for a couple of years. (Oh god already wanting a new expansion). My plan is to not sweat the achievements, they'll get done over the next two years. I figure getting 'The Immortal' will be a joke when the raid is wearing Icecrown loot. :D

Shadevarr
02-05-2009, 12:22 PM
Let me explain how I define RAIDER. It's a rank in our guild that gives you priority into progress raids and priority on loot in those raids. We have two other ranks, social and more social.
Raider is a dedicated player who wants more then to log and watch tv while pressing his buttons in a raid. Have you ever done anything that needed focus ? It's a big different than pressing random buttons mindlessly doing the same thing over and over again, with no change in sight for the next 2 months.



This guild I'm in is "centered" around people like me, who just wanna log on few times a week and achieve something more then your average kara-type farming. What I'm pissed at is people like you who think that's how the game should be played. If your a crappy player, then that's how you should play. If you like challenge then the "optional hardmode" is available. Problem is the guild was started by like-minded people, but bad habits have sunk in and people who used to be solid players are slacking and un-focuesd, just because they are bored, and when trying to do achievements to get rid of the bore, half disagrees and just want epics.


I didn't say that was a bad thing, you just have to look differently at the game.
It's in your power to make the game interesting again if you want to, and today that's ACHIEVEMENTS. Would there have been less misunderstanding if I'd have swapped out the word ACHIEVEMENT for HARDMODE ?

IMO if your afraid of Achievements becoming too time consuming or too hard for you, then what the hell are you doing in a "end-game" raiding guild when any casual pvp guild does the same for you.

It's Blizzards way of letting everyone enjoy the game, including the bad players, by making content "easy" with an "optional hard mode". But when solid players get stuck with "easy" mode content cause you keep failing at hard-mode, people either get soft or loose interest.



We raided 3 nights a week, started on Hydross (when most guilds had cleared BT and were waiting on Sunwell). Steady 3 nights a week until we hit Sunwell. We added 1 extra "alt/pug/social" run on sundays for MH and lower instance clears, but kept 3 nights for BT/SWP (Mu'ru died on 1 night of tries for example). But I guess you think yourself as a "casual" player and probably "you" couldn't have killed Kil'jaeden, but in my books "casual" means less attendance to allow for real life, and it definitely doesn't mean bad. That was in the days where hardcore were considered 4-6 nights a week with 90% attendance (we had 66%, and on average had 3-5 social unprepared, under geared people for our SWP raids). Me for example only had 75% attendance due to my work. Not enough to get into any "hardcore" guild, just a "good" casual guild.

What is frightening is that is exactly how my guild is setup. We downed Hydross at about the same time as the 1st Kalecgos kill on our server and we ended BC at Felmyst. There is a lot of boredom and poor play to the level that I broke my cool and chewed them out for playing like fresh 80s who got PL'ed through content.

greendragonempire
02-05-2009, 12:54 PM
achievements are pointless imo, i'd rather be farming gold or fishing or wintergrasp, or mining, or something else other than overgearing an instance and breezing through it easymode.

Jungy
02-05-2009, 12:57 PM
something else other than overgearing an instance and breezing through it easymode.

I believe thats the point of achievements, gives you a different way of killing a boss.

Anaea
02-08-2009, 07:18 AM
Not all achievements are made alike, unfortunately. Sarth+3D, or some of the timed Naxx achievements, would be on my list of interesting and worthwhile things to do on a raid night. Sarth while dodging lava bolts from the sky... not so much.

orcstar
02-09-2009, 01:39 AM
Just face it: previously in warcraft killing the last avalaible end boss in the game was the biggest achievement you could get.
This has changed significant. Every average guild can clear all content. At the moment the biggest achievement for a 25 men guild is "Heroic: Glory of the Raider". If you haven't done that you haven't completed the hardest challenge in game yet, imo you're not done.

PvE progress has shifted. Why do guilds do sartharion +3 drakes? It's also "only" an achievement and guilds can do him with 2 up and get all gear in game atm.

The real progress is in the achievements. If you see two tanks with the same gear: well, if one of them is riding a black protodrake and the other hasn't got any other achievement bar clearing content ones, then you know who the player in the good guild is.

greendragonempire
02-09-2009, 07:23 AM
Just face it: previously in warcraft killing the last avalaible end boss in the game was the biggest achievement you could get.
This has changed significant. Every average guild can clear all content. At the moment the biggest achievement for a 25 men guild is "Heroic: Glory of the Raider". If you haven't done that you haven't completed the hardest challenge in game yet, imo you're not done.

PvE progress has shifted. Why do guilds do sartharion +3 drakes? It's also "only" an achievement and guilds can do him with 2 up and get all gear in game atm.

The real progress is in the achievements. If you see two tanks with the same gear: well, if one of them is riding a black protodrake and the other hasn't got any other achievement bar clearing content ones, then you know who the player in the good guild is.

The problem is, the "good" guild is the hardcore zerg guild who will recruit anyone with a 40 hour a week playtime, and kick them just as fast if they make mistakes. While this is the way to get the achievements, ask yourself, is it worth it to be in a zerg guild full of jerks for a black drake that moves a little faster?

The answer most likely is yes for anyone who wants a flashy 310% black dragon mount to show off at kharsus landing. And if I hadn't been through that pre-bc I might still have the desire to join a raid guild like that. But I've been there and done that, and I enjoy the current guild I'm in way too much to say adios! I'm going to leave you for a meta-achievment!

jettzypher
02-09-2009, 07:56 AM
simply put, its a video game. sometimes people get bored with doing the same thing all the time. what they need to do is hang it up and find something better to do with themselves permanently, or they could simply take a break for a few months. maybe let a couple new patches come out so that way they can walk back into new content for them. thats what i do when the game gets boring. and everytime i come back its almost like playing for the first time, except i know what im doing.if people dont want to make attempts at things like the achievements to make that already easy content that theyve been farming since the first week WotLK came out, then maybe they should go spend their time elsewhere.