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Powhound
01-28-2009, 09:31 AM
For those guilds who have done this encounter how many raid nights did it take to defeat?

We've spent two raid nights learning and usually wipe with Shadron getting close to death. We are leaving Twilight Torment up and trying to burn through it but need to improve our raid healing and have DPS take more responsibility for there own health.

Got a few people who are bringing up a gear issue holding us back but I don't see it. Most of us are decked out in 25 man loot with a handful of newer 80's in a mix of heroic blue/epics. To me, whether geared or not, the wipes must be endured while everyone learns how it works. Question is how long did it take everyone else? (And what was the raids relative gear level).

Travo
01-28-2009, 09:43 AM
I for one would like to see a Tankspot video for Sarth 1d/2d/3d.
(or is there one?)

Tothiel
01-30-2009, 11:13 AM
This fight took us three nights of learning and refining our strategy.
It sounds like the problem you're having isn't with the main tank damage, but the raid blowing themselves up. The key is to have Tenebron dead as Shadron is landing without using BL/Heroism. This way you get the optimal amount of time on Shadron PLUS your BL/Heroism. If everything goes well, Shadron should be at 10-15% before Vesperon lands, giving you enough time to kill Shadron before Twilight Torment comes into effect. After that, the DPS race is done and you can take your time killing Vesperon. Just remember to keep sending your single target dps into the portal to take care of Vesperon's acolyte (and Shadron's immediately after he dies).

Powhound
01-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the reply.

We've been using Lust on Tenebron but I like your suggestion to hold for Shadron. I'll see how the DPS goes next time we try!

Tothiel
01-30-2009, 07:48 PM
We started with lust on the first drake to learn the fight, but switched it to Shadron after we had the fight down. It's a good test for your dps. If Tenebron isn't at 100k or lower when Shadron lands, you may need to bring in more dps.
Our optimal setup for the first kill was a druid on Sarth, a warrior picking up drakes, and a pally picking up fire adds and whelps. We had 2 resto shamman, a holy priest, and a holy pally for each tank, leaving 16 dps.
I don't have a wws for you, but on the average attempt, all 16 pulled 2.8k+ including the rogue assinged to enraged adds, with the top 5 at 4.5k+.
That should be a good benchmark.

Rukrow
01-30-2009, 07:56 PM
this is our guilds 3dkill with some vent in it. i am tanking the drakes and doing most of the talking, we take the Portal once 3rd drake lands for Twilight torment.

5 tanks, 3 prot wars, 1 dk 1 pally.
7 healers.
rest dps is our set up and works great for us


25man_OS_kill_0001.wmv - FileFront.com

(http://files.filefront.com/25man+OS+kill+0001wmv/;13121662;/fileinfo.html)

sevve
01-31-2009, 04:50 PM
I think we spent 4-5 flasktimers on him (8-10 hours), but it was over a fairly long timespan, so we did have to change quite a few each time.

We got stuck on the same thing as you guys, and we found that bloodlusting once we started Shadron to be huge, even though we only had Tenebron at 20% when Shadron landed. Personally I believe this is due to the increase healing from bloodlust when it is more needed.

Other things we found helpful(though I'm sure they're mentioned everywhere):
-Disc priest on MT, 7k PW:S is handy. Also grace stacks with blessing of sanc, unless they patched it.
-Kill Tenebron on the spot he lands. Melee just jump into the lava on the bad waves, while dpsing.

Taninor
02-02-2009, 08:22 AM
It took us about 3 raid nights the first time, 4 hours a night. We got him down at the end of the third night. It's the toughest fight in the game right now but well worth the effort imo.

The way we did it the first time was to blow hero on ten then burn shad and roll cool downs on the MT, me. The problem with this method is that it requires flawless CD usage on people to keep themselves alive. We downed him again last night and this time we experimented a little bit.

I wore my old FR gear, not all of it just 3 pieces,gloves, chest and boots. I put the fire resist enchant from teh kirin tor on my spare helm, superior fire resist to cloak and fire resist patches to both gloves and boots. This cut down the fire damage from sarth dramatically. We didn't need to blow any CD's when shad came, as a matter of fact the only time we started rolling cd's is when vesp comes down and spawns his disciple. By this time shad is almost dead, as soon as he drops melee takes the portal and kills the shad disciple. We ignore twilight torment and just heal through it until vesp is down. We then switch tanks, go into the portal to kill the vesp disciple and burn sarth. Easy enough and i got my drake.

Kataztrophe
02-09-2009, 05:40 AM
Took my guild 2 nights (5.5 hours altogether according to flask timers) to do it.


this is our guilds 3dkill with some vent in it. i am tanking the drakes and doing most of the talking, we take the Portal once 3rd drake lands for Twilight torment.

5 tanks, 3 prot wars, 1 dk 1 pally.
7 healers.
rest dps is our set up and works great for us



(http://files.filefront.com/25man+OS+kill+0001wmv/;13121662;/fileinfo.html)

Damn, you guys take alot of tanks :eek:

SpoiledRotten
02-10-2009, 03:10 AM
We did it on the 3rd pull of our first night of trying 25-3D. We did 0 and 1-D several times when we first tried doing 25's but we waited till we had the people and gear we thought we needed and it worked out for us nicely. Granted, that would probably be the exception and not the rule.

cael
02-10-2009, 10:18 AM
My guild has just recently spent a night wiping on 3d. A few people were like oh we need to go back to 2d until that is done perfectly.
Is going back to 2d helpful?
My feeling is that the only way to get better at 3d is to practice 3d and the transitions.

breaklance
02-11-2009, 10:00 PM
stay on 3d wipes. the only way to really practice 3d is doing it. if you still wanna go back down to 2d kill the 3rd drake so the fight has the 1st and 2nd drakes landing, it would simulate the closest thing.

My guild downed it tonight after 6 attempts. The blue void zones helped massively improve the fail of our melee. But what really helped us was that our cooldown crew found out what they were doing wrong. They began their rotation before sarth was getting the final buff, so by the time sarth was capable of 1shotting the mt there was no more cd's. As soon as they learned of their mistake, next attempt was kill.

We used:
4 tanks, 1 bear, 1 warrior, 2 pallies
7 healers, 2 pallies, 1 resto druid/shaman, 3 holy priests
14 dps somewhat balanced melee/ranged. All dps was at 3.9k+

We did have a ret pally spec for the prot talent bubble to chain the talent like in Ciderhelms video. Pally on drakes, war and pally on adds. Took the portal after the 2nd died, killed both disciples. Everytime the 3rd drakes portal spawned we killed it. We had 5 people die, and brezzed 3 after 2nd drake and disciples were dead.

We didnt have a problem with this, but it is recommended that someone calls out if there is a wave coming before you exit the protal realm.

Now my guild just has to repeat this next week, and the farming process begins!

cael
02-12-2009, 10:46 PM
Tonight was another night of wipes (but progressed to getting 2 drakes down on the 3d attempt). Im pissed as I failed to use shieldwall on drake breaths and died hence killing the raid on our best attempt.

We ended up finishing by 1 shotting 2 drakes and it is def not practice for 3d. Way less coordinated movement involved.

Anyone else have trouble positioning the drakes to face you and away from the raid after moving for fire wall?

Kataztrophe
02-14-2009, 04:49 AM
My guild has just recently spent a night wiping on 3d. A few people were like oh we need to go back to 2d until that is done perfectly.
Is going back to 2d helpful?
My feeling is that the only way to get better at 3d is to practice 3d and the transitions.

Keep going for 3D. Do 2D if you're about to call the raid and its your last raid day before the reset so you get some loot and badges off him at least.

Yakra
02-17-2009, 10:58 AM
12 Hours. We spent quite a bit of time trying different strats.

tehgreen
02-17-2009, 03:34 PM
35 attempts

3 tanks, 5 healers (but our boomkin and ele shamen start healing around wen the third drake pops up to keep the raid topped off)

haftonburger
02-17-2009, 04:35 PM
almost 4 whole nights so far, about 13 hours, and still no kill. We're having issues either 1 shotting tanks, low dps, or just overall people dying stupidly. It's a very frustrating experience.

lemysterieux
02-17-2009, 05:10 PM
It took us 6 hours, after doing 2 resets with two dragons. It's basically tons of information out there and if you can prepare the tacts ( which imo saves you A LOT of time ) and get all to understand the major issues ( which often are mistaken for minor issues )with this fight it is not that tough.

1. Survive voidzones ( put spelldetail on low )
- Yes, they are blue since the last patch but they are not really easier to see for drake tanks and melee so still an issue for some.
2. Lava walls
- Yes, people tend to miss it..I can't figure out why thou ;)
3. Dps -
-you should be able to get Tenebron to ~10% when Shadron lands without BL ( since you should use BL on shadron in our opinion )
4. Your MT should have 43k+ HP and able to use CD's with fingertip feeling.
5. Make all understand the above and the standard stuff with positioning and so forth.

Another thing is that we switch tanking positions between Shadron and Vesperon when he lands. We move Shadron to mid north , since it's closer to the portal and by that it's a faster transition between taking vesperons acolytes in the portal and back on Vesperon. It made a huge difference for us anyway.

Tank set-up :

MT - Unholy Tankknight
Tenebron - Prot Warrior
Shadron - Prot Warrior ( same as Shadron )
Vesperon - Prot Warrior
Whelps+Spawns - Tankadin

IKT
02-23-2009, 10:07 AM
almost 4 whole nights so far, about 13 hours, and still no kill. We're having issues either 1 shotting tanks, low dps, or just overall people dying stupidly. It's a very frustrating experience.

I'm in the same basket.

My question is: should sartharian be able to one shot a dk tank with cd's up?

Powhound
02-25-2009, 08:12 AM
Late to reply to this but in the end it finally took us 4 raid nights of about 3 hours each.

3 tanks, 7 healers, 15 DPS.

Burned lust on the tail end of Tenebron so it carries into Shadron + whelps. After that the only real tough part is raid healing so you can keep up high DPS to get Shadron down.

Thanks for all the replies everyone! I think these types of threads really help to keep guilds motivated when learning more difficult encounters.

Tothiel
03-16-2009, 12:44 AM
I'm in the same basket.

My question is: should sartharian be able to one shot a dk tank with cd's up?

Well, what is his hp?
A lot of tanks choose to use the polar gear for this fight. The extra stam is a nice buffer.
The other question is, are you rotating priest/pally cooldowns?

IKT
03-18-2009, 01:41 PM
Well, what is his hp?
A lot of tanks choose to use the polar gear for this fight. The extra stam is a nice buffer.
The other question is, are you rotating priest/pally cooldowns?

his hp is 32k unbuffed, he sits at 40k+ raid buffed, and yeah we're rotating cooldowns.

It doesn't seem to happen much anymore, and yeah we've got him on farm status now :)

kelvs
03-18-2009, 06:05 PM
we have been doing this for 3-4 nights with 4 hours each night. it's very disappointing now and everyone's getting tired. 1st 2 nights our problem's mostly with people dying from fire wall and void zones.

last night's tries were pretty good but i do have a few questions.

1. there are times that melee dies from sarth's breath. wtf is with this ? we're on the same side as the sarth tank but far away (we're on shadron's landing spot). is this a known bug ?
2. should we split dps after tenebron from adds/shadron ? or should everyone focus on adds, then shadron ?
3. we currently have 7 healers and 4 tanks. we do alternate tanking for drakes. warrior on tenebron, druid on shad, same warrior on vesperon. only a pally for adds tank. would another tank be helpful for the adds ?

Kerchunk
03-18-2009, 06:11 PM
1. there are times that melee dies from sarth's breath. wtf is with this ? we're on the same side as the sarth tank but far away (we're on shadron's landing spot). is this a known bug ?

Not that I've ever heard of. Melee shouldn't be anywhere near Sartharion, really. At least until the drakes are dead.


2. should we split dps after tenebron from adds/shadron ? or should everyone focus on adds, then shadron ?

Adds killing healers is the source of many, many failures at this juncture. Getting rid of the adds ASAP seems wise. As with most encounters splitting DPS between two goals is less efficient than focused DPS.


3. we currently have 7 healers and 4 tanks. we do alternate tanking for drakes. warrior on tenebron, druid on shad, same warrior on vesperon. only a pally for adds tank. would another tank be helpful for the adds ?

3-4 tanks maximum. Remember every tank is one less DPS, which means the Drakes and adds are up for that much longer. Don't add another.

IKT
03-19-2009, 12:59 AM
1. there are times that melee dies from sarth's breath.

are you sure that isn't shad or vesperons breath?

kelvs
03-19-2009, 02:00 AM
are you sure that isn't shad or vesperons breath?
yeps pretty sure. i thought it was shadron's breath at first but it 1 shotted me and other melees too. we're nowhere near sarth since we're on shadron's landing spot. happened like 3-4x within a 4 hour try.

lemysterieux
03-23-2009, 02:51 AM
yeps pretty sure. i thought it was shadron's breath at first but it 1 shotted me and other melees too. we're nowhere near sarth since we're on shadron's landing spot. happened like 3-4x within a 4 hour try.

Could have been a meteor ( also called lava spouts ), it does huge damage to anyone that is hit when both shadron,vesp and his acolyte is up.

Dirtyshizzno
03-30-2009, 02:24 AM
My Guild has been trying 3D for 2 nights now about 3 hours each. My question is about the cooldowns you use on your MT.Can someone give me an example of which cooldowns do you use and in what order? we are currently using a prot warrior tank but we are going to try a DK Tank when ours gets a little more gear. Also, if our prot warrior gets 1 shotted through Hand of sacrifice is that normal, or is he undergeared?

Adain
03-30-2009, 02:44 AM
yeps pretty sure. i thought it was shadron's breath at first but it 1 shotted me and other melees too. we're nowhere near sarth since we're on shadron's landing spot. happened like 3-4x within a 4 hour try.

Sarth's Breath is weird I've noticed it while tanking him before the cone and range on it seem to be stupidly large, the easy way to avoid it is to position the Sarth tank in such a way that he runs away from the raid when a flame wall is coming.

A few comments on the fight in general, I find that less tanks is actually better if you have a DK that has the gear use him for the Sarth tank. Unholy and Blood are both good specs to tank him with. The Danger zone in the fight is when the second and Third drake are both alive and the third acolyte spawns. Thats when you get "super" breaths and if possible thats when you want outside cooldowns for you tank. By super breath I mean I've been hit up wards of 50k unmitigated by it. Remind your DK that they can change there runeforge enchant too. You want the first drake dieing as the second drake is landing, clean up the whelps then use hero to go burn the second drake down. Don't bother with portals till the second drake is dead.

Once the second drake is dead your safe since you lose the increased fire damage.

Clav
03-30-2009, 04:55 AM
1. there are times that melee dies from sarth's breath. wtf is with this ? we're on the same side as the sarth tank but far away (we're on shadron's landing spot). is this a known bug ?


This happened to us a few times when the Sarth tank turned him too far at a firewall.

Soraan
03-31-2009, 10:35 AM
I've done the 10-man version of OS10 3Drake a couple times, but my guild is having a little problem on doing the 25man one. The furthest we have gotten is killing Tenebron, Shadron (at this point in 10man, pretty much a win in most cases), both adds in portal, then Vesperon down to 50%. But the problem is by that point, most of the DPS are dead and probably a couple healers too, so the DPS on vesperon is way too slow, and my healers (I'm Sarth Druid MT) run outta mana and cannot keep me up.

We were killing Shadron most of the attempts, but again, a lot of people were dying either to adds or just killing themselves via Twilight Torment. As one of the raid/guild officers/leaders, I don't really know what to do now. Our setup was basically:

4 Tanks
-- Druid MT Sarth (Me, 95% of the time, I can survive through breath with no cooldowns if I'm topped off due to fire resist/HP gear)
-- Pally Drake tank
-- Two Warrior add tanks

6 heals
-- 2 Resto Druids
-- 2 Holy Pallies
-- 2 Holy Priests
(I think we had 7, but I can't think of who the last one was)

The rest were DPS and an ele shaman switched over to heals after Vesperon had landed.

We had no problem getting Tenebron dead within seconds of Shadron adding (most of the time, Tenebron was at about 10% when Shadron landed). Then we AoE'd adds around Shadron to do damage to both. When Vesperon lands is when DPS start dying (and sometimes healers). Now, part of it might be add management and keeping them off healers, but I think the DPS are just killing themselves too low and then dying to a falling flame strike thing. We generally called out on vent when someone got really low, but some of the DPS said they died to adds (which I personally don't really believe as the adds always go after healers first from my experience).

When Vesperon lands, should we have at least 1 or 2 DPS focusing on killing the adds as they spawn? I dunno if it's just bad luck, but we seem to pile up an absurd amount of elementals during this time period.

For the most part, no one dies to dumb mistakes like void zones and flame walls; it's just trying to kill Shadron is when the most deaths occur. Being as I'm the MT, I'm focusing on my cooldowns during this time period, so I don't really have time to look around and see what exactly is going on. I just notice people's HP falling to 0 on grid. :/

Any tips/advice is appreciated, thanks.

Squashed
03-31-2009, 10:43 AM
I would include dying to twilight torment a dumb mistake right aong with void zones and flamewalls, it is completely predictable damage. That said, raid-wide healing such as judgement of light, vampiric embrace (i think?), chain heals etc are very valuable because basically every DPS will be taking heavy damage.

If you have a rogue, having them use Fan of Knives with anasthetic poison helps a lot from damage due to enraged elementals. Just 1 FoK after a flamewall is enough.

Kyultu
03-31-2009, 10:44 AM
Soraan, are you taking portals before killing Vesperon? You're probably best off getting Vesperon out of the way first and forcing DPS to manage their health and then taking portals last. I would suggest setting a minimum threshold of health (say, 8k?) and emphasize to your DPS that they should NEVER go below that amount, even at the cost of damage. I would also make sure Judgment of Light was up on Vesperon, it will compensate for a large part of the TT damage.

Adds getting loose is always a possibility, but an unlikely one if you have 2 add tanks. Try having the warriors bring all the adds to vesperon and AOE them down real fast if you get more than about 8 adds per tank and then resuming what you were doing.

Soraan
03-31-2009, 10:52 AM
I would include dying to twilight torment a dumb mistake right aong with void zones and flamewallsI agree.

Yeah, we did Tenebron -> Shadron -> Portal killing both adds -> worked on Vesperon like we did in 10man. I wasn't sure of the little break from TT from killing the add in the portal would be worth the time it took for people to go in. I'm not 100% we had Judgement of Light on the drakes, but I think we did from the Pally tank. We told people to not let their health get below 10k because of the possible death from Lava Strikes, but I just don't think they listened considering so many of them died.

Tailsz
03-31-2009, 11:16 AM
We are going to start trying 25 3D this week. We just got 10 man 3D down on Sunday so I have some high hopes for decent progress to be made on Thursday. We weren't in the position to have a full 25 man raid up until about 2 weeks ago and now we are fortunate enough to have a reliable 20-25 people depending on the day.

I'll let you all know how it goes... I do like the dedicated FoK idea for post flame waves though, very nice.

Sirq
03-31-2009, 01:25 PM
*no I haven't read all previous posts just OP*

For our guild, it was really a matter of setup, we had some raid nights with a sloppy setup but knowing we did have dps looking at certain naxx raid or malygos, what so ever. but going with either the ''lesser dps'' or the ''lesser healer'' we'd not really notice progress in getting further than that 3rd drake down, but just that every1 would be avoiding lava walls and voidzones... also tinkering with speccs for healers (esp paladins with divine guardian) and tanks (dk MT on sart) and so on took a bit of time to get a hold on the fight.

Our DPS is quite exceptional, or some people are I think and when we lack those people, the fight gets that much harder, so yea.. it's ''bring the player'' (but mainly melee ^_^)

Tailsz
04-02-2009, 07:01 PM
Ok... High hopes was a disastrous understatement.

We attempted the fight a total of 5 times.

We killed it on the 5th attempt with 24 people (priest went offline pre pull)

It made me cry a little inside to see how much easier this fight is in its 25 man form compared to 10 man 3D.

WWS Parse (http://wowwebstats.com/inxwrgpd1wztq)

Comp was:
4 tanks:
2 on adds - Prot Pally / Prot Warrior
Feral on Sarth
Prot warrior on Drakes
6 Heals
14 DPS

Squashed
04-03-2009, 05:53 AM
Once you kill the first 2 drakes and are able to stabilize people's health you're pretty much in the winning zone.

People need to understand the mechanic of twlight torment and the DPS needs to adjust from absolute full-bore tenebron/shadron to throttle it waaay back for vesperon, which is definetly hard. Its ~2k per hit, across nearly the entire raid. On our 25man kill I actually stopped attacking as the drake tank because I felt it was putting undo stress upon my healers. I had a mile long threat lead from all other portions of the fight so it was very easy to judge if I could stop and forgo that extra damage.

The last part of the fight, which I feel like frequently left out of discussion, is what to do once all of the drakes are dead and you're left with a portal and Sartharion. What we've always done is have the add tanks + healers stay out of the portal (the add in the portal is relatively weak). Once the adds in the portal are dead, we've had another tank pickup Sartharion because Tailsz, was/is rocking fire resist gear and takes heavy, heavy damage from Sartharion. From this point forward its important to pound heals onto the tank because Sarth is meleeing for 10k a whack and fire breathing. Don't forget any range issues healers may face during flame walls, I was almost lost a couple of times during flame-wall rangeouts.

IKT
04-03-2009, 08:37 AM
yeps pretty sure. i thought it was shadron's breath at first but it 1 shotted me and other melees too. we're nowhere near sarth since we're on shadron's landing spot. happened like 3-4x within a 4 hour try.

just found this out recently... I'm surprised no one has mentioned it before (that I have seen) but if you run recount, you can right click on the top bar, and click 'deaths' then click on the person and it gives you a view of how they died, ie

(70% of health) x hit by mob for 4000
(30% of health) x hit by mob for 3000
(0% of health) x hit by shad's breath for 10000

Squashed
04-03-2009, 09:49 AM
Could have been a meteor ( also called lava spouts ), it does huge damage to anyone that is hit when both shadron,vesp and his acolyte is up.

Sorry if this is been answered already, but tanking Shadron in Shadron's spot I've been killed by Sartharion's breath once. Its an infinite (or at least very large) range breath, in a conal form. So, getting even CLOSE to Sartharion when he is moved for a lava breath is quite dangerous.

Morgantis
04-04-2009, 05:10 AM
I'm in the same basket.

My question is: should sartharian be able to one shot a dk tank with cd's up?


a simple answer... NO the only thing that can happen is that -> He gets hit by a Breath then has like 2k health left and then sarth hits him melee

*happened to me a few times*

Though i wouldnt use a unholy .... id say use the same spec as for 10 mans and my time to learn it was .. 3 days First we just Completely wiped though we had every1 look at videos and forums to check it first night we wiped getting used to it .... 2nd night we got to Tenebron at 25% 3rd night it was a kill! Me as Ssarth MT a warrior on drakes and a pally on adds 6-7 healers rest dps with top 5 dps hitting 6.5k and lowest DPS was around 4k

Tailsz
04-06-2009, 04:37 AM
Sorry if this is been answered already, but tanking Shadron in Shadron's spot I've been killed by Sartharion's breath once. Its an infinite (or at least very large) range breath, in a conal form. So, getting even CLOSE to Sartharion when he is moved for a lava breath is quite dangerous.

Void zones are bitch...

I have made the mistake of dragging sarth and pointing him more towards the drake tank to avoid void zones. This can end with the drake tank getting smoked by a breath.

*TIP* (It may seem obvious but its an easy mistake to make)
When you get that rare double void zone spawn with a close wave incoming, make sure you either jump into the lava to avoid them & the wall, or make sure you are strafing towards the entrance & away from your drake tank.

Kyultu
04-06-2009, 10:14 AM
You also have the option of running directly at Sarth and standing underneath him front claws. Just know that any little movement side to side will swing him drastically. I've even had to run through him to flip him for a breath during a wall and then flip him back. It's a last resort, but still an option.

Tailsz
04-09-2009, 08:57 AM
You also have the option of running directly at Sarth and standing underneath him front claws. Just know that any little movement side to side will swing him drastically. I've even had to run through him to flip him for a breath during a wall and then flip him back. It's a last resort, but still an option.

My healer is generally somewhere close to sarths tail/back legs so flipping him would probably get him breath'd. That said, running to his front claws is still a great tip too, thanks :) .