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View Full Version : Future of DK tanking. Quetions and concerns



sawzz
01-27-2009, 09:20 AM
Looking Into my crystal ball I think we have some problems coming concerning death knight tanking.

First letís establish how we tank vs pallys vs Warriors/druids specifically how we generate threat.

Warrior/Druid use rage to pull off a number of special abilities thereby creating additional threat. Some abilities have threat multipliers built into the ability creating more threat than the pure damage of said ability. Rage is generated threw the damage you deliver and the damage you take. Also you generate additional rage from avoiding attacks. This basically limits the Druid/Warrior only by global cooldown and the viability of rage as to when a special attack can be used.

Pallyís use mana to pull off a number of special abilities thereby creating additional threat. Some abilities have threat multipliers built in to the ability creating more threat than the pure damage of said ability. Mana is returned to the pally threw the healing they receive and the use of judgment/seals. Pallys generate threat also threw damage they deliver when they block an attack. This basically limits the Pally only by global cooldown and the viability of mana as to when a special attack can be used.

Now the deathknight dilemma. We use runes to pull off our special attacks they give us no additional threat beyond the damage they deliver. We also have one ability runestrike that is only active after we dodge or parry. Runestrike does create additional threat but uses runic power. Runic power is generated threw the use of out other special abilities or two talent in the blood tree that in there present form are certainly not worth the talent points. This basically limits the Deathknight by global cooldown, rune cooldown, and the availability of runic power as to when a special attack can be used.

Now the problem if you cannot already spot it is in the availably of runic power to pull off runestrikes. The idea that was put forth that DKís are true avoidance tanks because we do not need to take damage to generate more threat. But we still cannot runestike if there is no runic power available. Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time. IF runestrike is to be THE threat generator tanking ability something has to change in how we generate runic power. I am already at the point where im runic power starved. In other words im not able to runestrike after every dodge or parry, not even close. Im not sure what the answer is short of some severer changes to the class or possibly tuning the threat multiplier of frost presence something I donít like. This really leaves one option for blizz and that is to stack more and more dps stat on tank gear. But how do you do that without making warriors OP.



I love playing my DK he is my main and I tank everything but I cant help but feel like DKís are just a DPS class that blizz stuck a few tank talent on and called it a day. The whole idea of tanking using the same abilities as you would as dps is just broken IMO.

Inaara
01-27-2009, 09:26 AM
Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.

Ray
01-27-2009, 09:43 AM
Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.

This ^^^^

Blizzard will either balance arround it. Or they will have to nerf it and give something like it to all tanks. BoSanc = infinte RS.

the big fear I have is that if they do balance arround this, then you will start seeing many many DW tanks just so they can keep up on threat.

Satorri
01-27-2009, 11:30 AM
Your reasoning is somewhat flawed.

First off, all tanks, warriors, bears, protadins, and DKs alike all have the same threat/damage architecture. Blizz has stripped a significant amount of the "bonus threat" from abilities and has buffed our damage potential quite a lot. We all still have threat multipliers and sources of bonus threat.

Now I'm inclined to agree with you that rage and mana are very simple mechanics next to the Rune/RP system, and because of this DK tanking takes a lot more complex skill application when it comes to managing this power system effectively, but I see that as a massive plus to the class. I like that it takes more to really be able to succeed as a DK tank.

Rune Strike is not our sole threat tool, it just happens to be a good one that improves as our tanking gear does, but it is already possible in currently available content to not be able to use it on every proc simply because you are swinging a big slow weapon. If you are finding you don't have enough RP to use it, that's a very different issue, and I'd ask either A.) what are you doing with all your RP, or B.) why are you not generating enough? When I am MT'ing RS is usually second or third on my overall damage (probably placing it first or close to on threat) but it is still only at most 20-25% of my total output. I am unholy, which means I have 2 other things I am eagerly spending RP on UB which I maintain zealously when possible, and DC/CE depending on the context of the pull. And yet, this is still where RS lands.

I'm not sure what your concern is, but you need to take two steps back and bring something more solid to the table. If you have a problem, bring it up for discussion and maybe we can help. If you just don't like the way the class works, then go play a different one, there are certainly more than enough people who want to be DKs.

So what will it be, offer us your problems (which we may or may not share)? Or are you just venting, or planning a reroll?

Optimoos
01-27-2009, 11:37 AM
Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time.

You're assuming that somehow as your avoidance goes up you should arbitrarily be able to rune strike more, forgetting that rune strike, as an "On-Next-Swing" ability is solely limited by the number of swings your weapon is making per minute.

The only place I can see this being an issue is if you're using a fast 1h to tank with, which is a bad choice for a DK tank as some of our abilities are based on weapon damage. While 1h tanking, slow 1h weapons are the best choice, and all 2h weapons are slow, so the number of rune strikes you can do is strictly limited by this number, and will not increase no matter how much avoidance you have.

That being said, rune strike costs 20 RP, and with a 2h weapon you can expect a ~3.5 second swing, allowing you more than enough time to use 2 abilities for 20 RP (or 2 multi-rune abilities for even more RP). There are hard and fast numbers to RP generation and consumption, unlike rage generation which is much more random.

The only thing I could suggest is that the RP value of rune strike perhaps be modified depending on whether you're wielding a 1h or 2h weapon. 1h, less damage, more swings, less RP needed. 2h, more damage, less swings, more rp needed.

sawzz
01-27-2009, 12:26 PM
Perhaps I did a poor job of explaining my concern. My gripe does not apply to current content (see the title of the post). My gripe is with Runestrike as a tanking ability that all and death knight tanking in general. With an eye on the future.

Deathknight as of right now are bassically on auto mode. What do I mean? Regarless of what you do you can only generate a certain amount of RP.
Regarless of what you do you can only pull off so many abilities that are based on the use of runes. This is set in stone. You can miss your rotation and generate less but no more no matter what. So the question become what can we do to generate more threat with what availible to us. Runestrike is sold to us as being the threat generating tool that is to fill in the gaps so to speak in out normal rotation. And again no matter what only a set number of RS can be pulled off in a given amount of time.

This to me is a sad state for any class to be in. Auto mode bassically. No other tank class is like this. I see this as bad because we are going to be so dependant of the gear availible. I just see this a a place where problems can and prolly will arise in future content.

sawzz
01-27-2009, 12:50 PM
A couple of other items.

Pally's and warrior and druids have instant attacks that have threat mutipliers still acording to the tool tip.


Also the the comment was made that you can only RS every time you auto attack based on weapon speed. Giving you 3.5 to generate 20 rp. After a parry how much time do you have?? Can you consistantly generate 40 runic power over say 6 sec? As you can see its not so simple when you consider haste do to parry.

Esch
01-27-2009, 01:35 PM
Blessing of Sanctuary. Learn to love it.

That's the problem. I've cleared 10 man content sans BoSanc, and it wasn't notable. Then I did a 25 man with BoSanc and I couldn't get rid of RP on a regular basis if I was the MT. I think when I'm able to 4x Frost Strike (and 0 talent points in Runic Power Mastery, no FS glyph), something is a wee bit out of whack.

While DKs can generate a lot of threat, we're reliant on Frost Presence ('tank stance'), Rune Strike (limited by weapon speed) and Death & Decay (heavy rune cost, notable CD even with talents). Altogether, there isn't a single, 'spammable' or short CD high-threat ability, and that's what is concerning Sawzz.

Lacerate, Hammer of Righteousness & Shield all come to mind as examples of the spam/short CD threat moves other tanks have currently. Damage is key, but I consistently see the warrior/paladin tanks peel a mob off me unless I've got a significant lead. (The warrior admits to a shield slam, I suspect SotR from the paladin.)

Inaara
01-27-2009, 01:50 PM
I wouldn't say that we're reliant on DnD, in fact it's a terrible ability to use while MTing a boss and boss tanking should be the only point for discussion.

I don't have any trouble with threat and don't see any problems with threat in the future. As DPS' gear gets better, so does ours.

Further more initial threat should never be a problem for DK's with the option to use RPM. I honestly don't know where all the concerns are coming from. I think that if individuals are having problems keeping aggro from DPS or other tanks then they should look at themselves for a solution, not blame their problem on class mechanics and design.

Runes
01-27-2009, 02:24 PM
Warriors, Paladins and to some extent Druids don't complain about their threat plateauing with gear but rather they complain that their threat decreases with gear due to their rage/mana generation mechanics. It seems to me then that DK's have it quite good because with more damage stats on gear their threat will increase and with more avoidance their threat will increase. On the whole this is quite irrelevant unless someone comes up with actual numbers on how threat scales and until we see what kind of gear comes out of Ulduar.

Esch
01-27-2009, 02:26 PM
I wouldn't say that we're reliant on DnD, in fact it's a terrible ability to use while MTing a boss and boss tanking should be the only point for discussion.

DnD is as valid as any other ability to generate threat. It also has the benefit, like paladin consecrate, to manage to 'ignore' the need for +hit gear and still generate threat. Paladins have been employing this aspect for threat generation on bosses as well as trash.


I don't have any trouble with threat and don't see any problems with threat in the future. As DPS' gear gets better, so does ours.

... and as our gear improves, so does the other tanks' gear. Ergo, the threat aspect scales accordingly. Equally geared tanks should tank equally, IMO, but I find that my cohorts can pull aggro 'at will' by employing said threat abilities. The change to RS was great, but the passive nature makes it unreliable if there isn't time to 'proc' it. Then again, if I have time to proc RS, I probably get time to get a solid threat lead and the issue is moot.


Further more initial threat should never be a problem for DK's with the option to use RPM. I honestly don't know where all the concerns are coming from. I think that if individuals are having problems keeping aggro from DPS or other tanks then they should look at themselves for a solution, not blame their problem on class mechanics and design.

Let's stop lumping DPS with Tanking. Keeping DPS from pulling aggro is pretty boring in WotLK, though still manage (usually by crit strings). Tanking is more often a question of if, as a DK, I get enough time on target to out threat the opening move of another tank. If I get the lead, I hold aggro. If I don't, then I find X-High-Threat Move pulls it, and I'm ending up in a DPS role as I fall behind.

Zalacres
01-27-2009, 02:28 PM
If you are having issues with RP buildup, you might try to work a few more Death Coils into your rotation. I find myself in situations like that most of the time, but as long as you don't dip too low for your next Rune Strike you should actually end up better for your threat output.

Inaara
01-27-2009, 02:34 PM
DnD is as valid as any other ability to generate threat. It also has the benefit, like paladin consecrate, to manage to 'ignore' the need for +hit gear and still generate threat. Paladins have been employing this aspect for threat generation on bosses as well as trash.

Consecrate is part of a pallies rotation. On solo mob tanking, DnD is not part or at least should not be part of a DK's rotation.




... and as our gear improves, so does the other tanks' gear. Ergo, the threat aspect scales accordingly. Equally geared tanks should tank equally, IMO, but I find that my cohorts can pull aggro 'at will' by employing said threat abilities. The change to RS was great, but the passive nature makes it unreliable if there isn't time to 'proc' it. Then again, if I have time to proc RS, I probably get time to get a solid threat lead and the issue is moot.

As other classes gear gets better their threat generation has the possibility of going down if they don't take enough damage. Pallies threat was broken, it has since been fixed. No crazy modifiers on holy damage, no double shield slam. If your "cohorts" can pull aggro off of you then something is wrong. 7k Obliterate crits seem like a decent snap aggro ability.




Let's stop lumping DPS with Tanking. Keeping DPS from pulling aggro is pretty boring in WotLK, though still manage (usually by crit strings). Tanking is more often a question of if, as a DK, I get enough time on target to out threat the opening move of another tank. If I get the lead, I hold aggro. If I don't, then I find X-High-Threat Move pulls it, and I'm ending up in a DPS role as I fall behind.

Lumping DPS into tanking is kind of like comparing tanking classes to each other. Like I said. We have so many tools at our disposal. If initial threat is a problem then open with IT->OB->BT->OB->BS->RPM->Smash face.

Pul
01-27-2009, 02:40 PM
Right now in a mix of T7 & T7.5 I have over 60% dodge + parry. This number can only go up with the next round of gear and content. But runic power and the ability to generate more is set in stone. You can only generate so much over a given amount of time.You say you are over 60% avoidance (and miss is not even included in that 60%) and as it's said DK's are needing very little healing if played properly. Isn't that a gain against other tank classes? Classes have plus and downsides.

I have 42% avoidance as a Druid in Naxx25 gear.
Sanctuary does not provide a regen in situations of a 'Miss' avoidance type. This will affect particulary Warriors and Paladins I supose, thou in certain situations I do still get rage starved even with BoSanc.
I am not sure about Discipline priests and their shields.

You will have to look at the other classes downsides. A druid for example will have to debuff lancerate x5 for max tps/dps. If by bad luck a druid is unlucky to get low on rage and then avoid the next incoming attack with a 'miss' and having lancerate run out, he will have to re-stack 5 debuffs. Same happens in bosses with air phases or switching bosses (Sapphiron & 4Horseman respectivly). In Grobbulus for example, I have to refresh lancerate everytime before I move him just to prevent the debuff run out due to my attack not landing or he not reaching melee range by a fraction of second. That ruins my normal rotation a lot where I could land an extra 2 swipes (doing up to 1kdmg each) I have to cast a lancerate wich I don't think goes above 400.


Last time we killed Patchwerk in 25man I was OT'ing and a DK MT'ing he was doing a solid 8k TPS. There is no way can do solid 8k TPS, I can do 6.5 but without a serie of crits in a row I won't go above that for more than 1 second. Patchwerk is obviously a situation that you name 'only limited by GCD'.
In situations where the tank can get very limited amount of rage due to a serie of factors - DK is very favoured in this situation then.

I'm at the stage my TPS will only improve with more DPS stats. So I am aswell limited, just diferently. Either way, my TPS is high enough for the DPSers and aslong it stays that way I am not worried.

Esch
01-27-2009, 05:38 PM
Lumping DPS into tanking is kind of like comparing tanking classes to each other. Like I said. We have so many tools at our disposal. If initial threat is a problem then open with IT->OB->BT->OB->BS->RPM->Smash face.

It's BT, then IT 2x OB BS. Oh, yeah, I use that rotation, albeit if you're needed to employ RPM, you're either padding your lead over tank #2 or (as I tend to find) I'm trying to keep up with him.

I still think DPS is DPS, Tanking is Tanking. Lumping them together implies that the need to focus on dealing damage is the same as tanking. Might as well take IBT, UA, LB, BA, etc. all off the bar at that point. I'ld rather worry about threat & mitigation, not where I'm placing on a DPS meter.

That's why I'm a tank.

Blueduck3285
01-27-2009, 06:00 PM
One of the big problems I see here is that people are comparing one class to another. Well the orange taste different from the apple and thats just not right... DK's are designed differently. I may not have the snap aggro abilities as a warrior, and am happy thusly. Once I start in on a boss fight, theres no slowing my threat down unless I really screw up my rotation. In the future as DPS gear gets better, obviously ours will too.

Something that was mentioned by a later post was that Frost Pres (Tank stance) is our threat modifier. Im sure that everyone knows by now that not ALL information is on the tool tips. If you dont believe this than try and tank in any other stance and see how you do on threat. I understand where your coming from on the whole of RP vs RS use. Heres the deal with that. I have actually dropped RS out of my rotation almost entirely to see how well I can tank without "high threat" abilities. Thus far I have done just fine. Bring RS back into my rotation down the road will do nothing but increase my preformance.

Another thing to remember is with all our abilities, we dont just rely on "high threat" tooltips. Most of your ablilities scale off our AP. Best thing any tank can do is balance their avoidance and stam stats for dps stats. If you get too much into worrying about defensive capabilities, you forget about your threat gen (Partly why I respec'd).

The only reason I could see agreeing with the concerns of the OP is if your basing your thoughts souly on defensive style tanking, in which case warriors and druids would win out. Personally, I dont see DK's as such style, DK's are ment to be the active ability tanks so there should be no need for "high threat" abilities. With a soild rotation, you'll never be blacked out, never have too little rp, and always have more fun that anyone else IMO.

nips
01-28-2009, 02:15 AM
To the op i think you got it all backwards. Dk's are as you say somewhat on auto mode in our rotation since the rotation is for the most set in stone regardless of what you are tanking. The only difference is if we rs alot or if we have to use other ways to dump our rune power. But how is this a bad design? It only means we are able to produce more reliable threat then rage/mana based classes. Sure we wont see the same threat increase on patch, but we wont loose alot of our threat when tanking easy hitting bosses either. Personaly i think its a great design.

*edit
Just like to point out that my HB hits for 3-6k every 5 sec to unlimitied targets not sure how much more snap aggro than that you need...

Also to the ones saying dnd is bad on boss tanking, have you actually looked at the numbers vs runecost? When i was tanking as unholy it did close to 500dmg a tick which is a total of 20k threat for 3 runes. Not bad imo.

robbon
01-28-2009, 03:40 AM
let me get this right...

your a DK with the health pool, armor and defence rating/crit immunity ability of a prot warrior.
your a DK with the avoidance of a Druid
your a DK with the weapons and ability to dual weild of a rogue/fury warrior
your a DK with the ability to aoe like a pally.

what was the problem again ?

Satorri
01-28-2009, 06:42 AM
Nice Robbon =)


Nice

Joklai
01-28-2009, 06:55 AM
Runestrile does have a threat multiplier (150%) and so does DnD, and as you get better gear, you get better AP, which in turn makes you hit harder... which will give you more threat.

I rarely am low on RP to runestrike, and if I have BoS I always have enough.

I guess I can kinda see why you are worried, but all four tank classes are about equal, and will scale together in later content.

sawzz
01-28-2009, 07:03 AM
Let me put it like this. If you are running 25man content as a DK tank with equally geared DPS you have seen your amount of threat versus their threat get much closer. While equally gear Warrior,Pally and Druids all maintain thier threat. My Guild has 3 Druid tanks, 4 warrior tanks, 3 DK, and 2 pallies all in 25 man gear. This is an area of concern which is what my post was about in the first place the topic of course was long ago abandoned. I dont have a Problem really with anything right now. My concern is will this trend continue. Will I continue to lose threat to the dpser and other tanks. I dont know but its easy to see what they have (Pally, Druids and Warriors) versus what we have in the way of high threat abilities and see that theirs are much more efficient and dependable than ours and they scale much better with gear.

If you are a DK tank do this little test. Tank a boss record your DPS and your average and peak TPS on that fight. Then do the same when one of the other tank types tank the same boss. You will find your dps to be the same or greater but your tps will not. The question is why?

robbon
01-28-2009, 08:04 AM
In all seriousness i understand your woe and dont think it will be an issue.

You just have to see the amount of changes made during the last patch to Dk to see that Blizz are still developing the DK class.

How things will pan out...who can say.

But lets face facts. The DK is a "hero" class. Now i know there is a lot of debate about what this actually means and im still undecided myself.

However the DK can and does "fit" the hole in the raid whereby i need a dps but i actualy need a possible further tank. So im looking for a class that has high dps BUT can alos act as tank.

Even if i take a full "tank" spec DK to a raid and ask him to go dps on this fight...he is quite easily outputting more damage than a prot warrior would in the same position. A pally tank can but has to watch aggro and the druid can go pussy and still put out some serious dps. We have even had our MT druid AOE tank trash as pussy....

I suppose what im saying is your class is valuable yes. its also very viable in many situations and you can be rest assured you will always have high dps in an OT role and be quite appropriate in a MT role.

class buffs/nerfs and adjustments will continue...gear will change...mechanics will change.

I wouldnt worry..it looks like DK are Blizzards new best friend and im sure you will be for the remainder of WotLk as the storyline and lore revolves areound you a lot more yet.

nips
01-28-2009, 08:17 AM
If you are a DK tank do this little test. Tank a boss record your DPS and your average and peak TPS on that fight. Then do the same when one of the other tank types tank the same boss. You will find your dps to be the same or greater but your tps will not. The question is why?

Well warriors have threat modifiers and palas have rf so that's not a big mystery... Dk's are designed to do more damage when tanking and we scale very well with gear/buffs imo. As an example my howling blast crits for 4k self buffed and it crits for 6k in a raid with most buffs same goes with alot of other dk abilities.

Trying to say that warrirors will scale better because they have initiall threat on some abilities is realy backwards thinking. They might scale better in t8 gear for all i know, but it wont be because they have initiall threat abilities.

Inaara
01-28-2009, 08:38 AM
Sawzz I don't mean to call you out or play the armory card but I just looked at your gear, your guild, what progress you've done and I don't think that you have the experience to make any real evaluations about DK threat "problems" for the future.

You're gemming hit when you aren't even expertise capped for boss dodge and most of your gear is from 10 mans. I would think , especially as blood, that knocking at least dodge off the table would be a huge concern. While demise is a good weapon, it isn't a iLvL 213 weapon and is definetely not an Inevetable Defeat. Doing good threat and damage as a DK is very reliant on your weapon.

I would suggest that you hit the gear cap and THEN run some numbers before having concerns.

sawzz
01-28-2009, 10:57 AM
You think that possibly I might have more than one set of tank gear maybe?? Maybe more than one weapon? Dont pull the I looked at your armory card ok it has a much better chance of making you look stupid, much more than it does the OP.

Inaara
01-28-2009, 11:03 AM
It doesnt make me look stupid. You haven't killed KT 25 man so your "different gear sets" will not be anything impressive. If you have inevitable defeat and are using demise you're a fool. I will pull the "I looked at your armory" because that's exactly what I did.

dotJEM
01-28-2009, 12:02 PM
Wow...

Honestly i can't se what your on about for now, i think Death Knights is by far the collest tanking class there is, due to the fact you have much more to move around to fit your playstyle... And who doesn't think it's cool to be the class smacking that big 2 hander in the bosses faces?...

But for a more serious part.

The Rune System and the Runic Power

This is a pritty unique system, and indeed require some skill to master. Tailoring your rotation around it is far from as easy as what warriors, druids and palas has to do, but if we in any way can look back, i think this system will show to be one of our advantage.

As mentioned, we don't relly on taking damage so to speak to gennerate rage or get mana from heals. If we are to belive things might move as previous patches, these things will end up to be problem for some warriors and druids out there.

(Makes me think back on tanking Kara in BT ready tanking gear on my warrior)

What this means is that there rage generation and mana returns, rely on matters they don't fully control, our generation of Runes and Runic Power doesn't. This i think is an advantage although it shurely have an downside of never being in unlimited surply.

Rune Strike

It is ONE of our main abilities to generate threat, but depending on spec you also have SS for us unholy tanks is also a good threat portion, even though it doesn't have a threat multiplier.

Blood and Frost also have there special little abilities and so on...

Death and Decay

Also DnD is not as bad as people seem to think it are.
Just a quick rundown on that. Rune by Rune i would get a SS + BS for it. For me this is on average around 2.4k + 1k = 3.4k damage.

DnD ticks for around 360 on average for me, this is 3.6k damage.
That is with a threat multiplyer on.

It's really the rotation that pulls DnD down, but theres many bosses where situations will let you have enough runes to put it down while not rune starvating your self.

I Haven't formed a final oppinion on bosses as Patchwerk, and if DnD is actually worth fidling with here, im still playing around with it, seeing if i can somehow fit it in without loosing GCD's or at least to much of one.

But saying it should never be used on a boss is pure rubish if you ask me...

For how we scale

Well i don't see any issues here that aint on other classes as well. Warriors, Druids and Palas need to improve there offensive stats just as much as us along the way. But we are so blessed that even str also benefits our TDR.

Do i fear for the our future?

Well ofc i do, i fear for all classes future on all acounts, itemization, nerfs, buffs and all. But i do fear mor for the other tanking classes on the threat matter than for us.

Merko
01-28-2009, 01:16 PM
Sawzz, why don't you try out a different spec, right now yes... blood is putting out a little less threat than the other two spec. Also blood has rune count usage is higher (since you rely on HS) than frost or unholy so if you are "dare i say it" a clicker, you will particularly have problems with blood.

... and by saying i only want to tank heavy blood, its like a dps priest going holy and saying I like to spam smite its blizzards fault I don't put out as much dps as shadow...

I'm not even tank spec atm (when i am i'm usually frost), but if the day comes when frost was struggling I definately would spec into another tree that was doing better instead of saying the class is in trouble.

Why not start your post by saying that you are a Blood Spec DK Tank who is having threat issues... here is my spec and rotation... what are you guys doing differently... etc etc

Krenian
01-28-2009, 11:53 PM
Threat's an issue?

I will admit that at the start, threat's an issue. Give me 5 seconds however, and you're not going to pull off of me.

I can constantly hold a 4.5 to 5k threat on a single target easily. I've spiked to 6-7k before oddly enough with no problems.

The gear will come along and the skill will also come with it. Practice makes perfect. (Btw I hit that with Frost, not unholy, before people start screaming you were AoE tanking and thus the high threat)

Yes, I could be pulling numbers, however how would you know, :p

Anyway, threat right now is alright. Will it be caught up by DPS? It already is, I see mages come near me and I kinda wince. However it's up to the DPS to be smart about it...

The big thing I think DKs need is a way to frontload a lot of threat instantly. We're slow frontloaders when it comes to threat, however once established, it's hard to pull off.

sawzz
01-29-2009, 07:18 AM
I guess I made some assumtions at the beginning and was prolly to long winded in the foundation of my argument. So let me clear some things up.

First Ive tanked all three specs and tweek things here and there all the time. I am usually broke from respecs and regemming and what not. I am blood now really for utilities sake. This is not what my main tank spec would look like.

I dont dislike tanking with my DK. I love the class and how we go about our business. No problem there from me.

The point from the begining is the mechanics of how we generate threat and why I believe we fall behind the other tanking classes as our gear improves. Thats it. Im not trying to change the world or make people mad.

What I stated about DK threat is fact. Im sorry if that offends people. Me asking why and suggesting where the problem might be is what I thought this section of the forum was all about.

xKhellendrosx
01-29-2009, 07:38 AM
Hmm.. as our gear improves we generally deal more damage in return dealing more threat. I've had the other tanks in my guild comment already that my threat can just shoot up as DK threat can be fairly spikey as some others have pointed out. If you are mindful of your rotations it generally isn't that difficult to keep up threat.

As far as DPS goes, I've seen some dps that have not only caught up to my threat but generally the threat of all the other tanks in our guild. Some of them do it on purpose to keep the tanks on their toes lol.

Krenian
01-29-2009, 07:46 AM
I guess I made some assumtions at the beginning and was prolly to long winded in the foundation of my argument. So let me clear some things up.

First Ive tanked all three specs and tweek things here and there all the time. I am usually broke from respecs and regemming and what not. I am blood now really for utilities sake. This is not what my main tank spec would look like.

I dont dislike tanking with my DK. I love the class and how we go about our business. No problem there from me.

The point from the begining is the mechanics of how we generate threat and why I believe we fall behind the other tanking classes as our gear improves. Thats it. Im not trying to change the world or make people mad.

What I stated about DK threat is fact. Im sorry if that offends people. Me asking why and suggesting where the problem might be is what I thought this section of the forum was all about.

Well when you see a thread that states Questions and Concerns about a class, which happens to be yours, of course you're allowed to question it, that's the whole point.

However it's from my experience that we're really not as badly off as most people think we are. Yes, we are behind when it comes to starting threat and people can't open up. I like to think of us as the warriors of old "Don't hit till 2 sunders!!!". Right now, our rage generation to start off is very poor. I don't find the opening of D&D > PS > IT or IT > PS depending on if you get Glacial Rot or not, is the greatest opener due to the fact your first threat ability is a DoT. Unlike Paladins who have a real hard hitting starting ability (Shield of Righteousness, and their Captain America attack) and then rely on Consecration to keep their adds to them, we immediately open up with a DoT and expect to keep our main target after a full rotation has been set. This can be problematic if the boss has an enrage timer as you have to set up a rotation to fully have the effects needed. A misdirection + Tricks of the Trade will help here but we shouldn't have to rely on another class to do our job properly.

You know what I would love them to give us? Something of a shield slam but not. Remember in Final Fantasy, where the Death Knight had those ranged dark attacks that stole health or mana and it came out as a death like sword or scythe to attack a mob? THAT would be awesome to get. Just one single attack that's on say, a 30 second cooldown, to be an initial big hit damage dealing, and threat dealing, attack.

That's my thoughts anyway.

jere
01-29-2009, 08:26 AM
A couple of other items.
Pally's and warrior and druids have instant attacks that have threat mutipliers still acording to the tool tip.


Can you list some pally ones? All we use in our rotation typically is Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of Righteousness, Holy Shield, Judgement, and Consecration. Sometimes we use Avenger's Shield, Hammer of Wrath, and Exorcism depending on the situation.

I would encourage you to look at their tooltips again before listing them though. I can tell you right now that none of those generate additional threat individually.

Also, paladins are kind of in the reverse situation from how you describe deathknights. You said death knights are constrained by only being able to generate so much RP. Paladins can only spend so much. Even if we were able to generate twice as much, we couldn't use it at all as our rotation is fairly set and we don't have any kind of mana dump. Interesting comparison.

shushikiary
01-29-2009, 09:50 AM
Speaking from a warriors perspective and watching our guilds new DK tank (jmw) I'd have to say that I see a few issues for dk's and warriors:

1. DK's have a higher stam multiplier than warriors do, and as the gear goes on (and sense they share gear) dk's will gain stam faster than warriors.

2. DK's have (in "equivalent gear") about 10-15% more avoidance than warriors do, yet in the same gear tend to have 2-3k more life. Looking at this from an average hit from boss perspective and assuming an average block value of 1200 or so (and say 25% block chance) this means that DK's actually take less damage on boss fights that hit really hard (like over 10k a hit on average), yet they ALSO have more stam, and more armor (by about 5k).

3. Threat generation for a DK does not seem to scale as well with gear as for warriors (assuming rage is not an issue, the mechanic that warriors have issues with threat (without blessing of sanc) in higher gear sets has still not been fixed, and thus warriors will continue to have to gear down for fights if there isnt a prot pally in raid, unless bosses hit really really hard, but then again a DK would be better tank due to the above 2). (this is mainly due to bonus threat from AP, and shield slam from BV (both going up with str).


This means that in later content, due to the stam and avoidance difference in scalings, rage issues with warriors, and threat scalling issues with dk's, that in progession fights where the average boss hits really hard, dk's are the best tank, but later when you need threat rather than survivabilty you'll need a warrior.

I hope that blizz realizes these issues and:

1. buffs DK threat scaling

2. either increases the stam warriors get from gear from 6% bonus from talents to 10% or increases our average amount of shield block value to make up for the lack of stam scaling (to something closer to 2.5-3k SBV).


I believe that druids are about right in their stam/avoidance/armor rating, and that pally's are going to have similar issues as warriors.

The only other way that I can think of to fix this is to still buff DK threat scaling, but lower the amount of armor/stam they get from gear to say 70% armor and 6% stam in "tank stance" but let them keep their avoidance for the moment.


The only TRUELY saving grace (which may level the whole playing field here between the dk's and everyone else) is the fact that dk's will be losing alot of avoidance as gear goes up compaired to other tanks. This is mostly because of the parry DR curve. Most well geared DK tanks are already hitting the parry DR curve pretty hard (once you get above 12% + parry from gear you start really getting hammered with the parry DR curve). This means that the STR bonus to parry for DK's will be come MUCH less as gear goes up, and so DK's will not be able to gain as much avoidance as warriors/druids as gear progresses.

However due to the isses of avoidance/rage with warriors we cannot use the above advantage to full use (without blessing of sanc). This means that either you HAVE to have a prot pally in raid, or blizz needs to give warriors the stam or SBV change I suggested. That or another idea might be to give warriors something like 5 rage every time they dodge/parry and 2 rage (as it is) if they block, but then nerf blessing of sanc (as someone else already mentioned). This would work in allowing warriors to keep high avoidance gear, have less stam than DK's but the DK's loss in avoidance due to DR on parry would make up the difference and yet warriors could still not be rage starved in higher gear, and then give DK's a bonus to threat from AP like warriors, but not as high of a percentage.



Note that most of the above is me just doing estimates of values from simple calculations and not a full analisys. However my engineer intuition is telling me it's moderatly accurate (though it could be wrong).

Edit: and I just figured out why I might be wrong.... /sigh I forgot DK's dont have 10% reduction on normal attacks (only on magic). That right there may very well make up the difference.... guess that means I might just have to sit down and do the math.

Merko
01-29-2009, 12:15 PM
Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

*just food for thought*


edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...

shushikiary
01-29-2009, 01:04 PM
Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

*just food for thought*


edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...

Yea currently he's in some sort of farming gear on the armory, but when he tanks he uses a 2 hander, I have a lot to learn about DK's. Perhaps, give what you have said, they did fix the DK threat issue then, and given that I forgot about the 10% that DK's dont have like warriors, I think things are pretty well balanced (I'm still kicking my self for forgetting about that 10%....).


Yea, I usually use my lunch break for surfing the forums, lol.

Merko
01-29-2009, 01:18 PM
...if he tanks in that spec with a 2hander, i would be very cautious about "the new tank" because his spec and rotation is why he is putting out low threat.

Grondax
01-29-2009, 01:49 PM
I feel I am in a good position to comment about this issue as we run four tanks (pally/dk/druid/warrior) and have cleared every fight in the game including both 10/25 man 3 drake sarth.

It took me a while to figure out how to say this without talking for two pages, but here is the short and simple version.

In three drake Sarth the first drake is commonly Hero'ed down. I use vigilence on our top dps, and lavanthor/shield block after stacking sunders and getting the shield slam glyph up. My gear setup to say the least is threat oriented. Even with MD and tricks those first 20 seconds with cooldowns blazing are rough when our top DPS will be pushing over 10k. At our current level of gear I would be hesitant to put anyone other than myself on the drakes.

So yea your single target threat might not stack up against mine. At the same time you are viable in so many other places. I would never want anyone other than a DK on constantly spawning adds. You can soak Sarth's breaths like a champ. You can also switch into DPS gear and be viable without a spec change.

Your line of thinking is correct, but your concern isn't valid. DK's are not meant to be the champions of single target threat generation. No matter what blizzard says they have distinctly different roles in mind for the tank classes when it comes to hard content. Even now in "hard mode" encounters tanks have very specific roles, and I doubt that will ever change.

That all said for every standard encounter for a standard guild every tank is interchangible. This will stay the same in 3.1.

ttocs
01-29-2009, 02:43 PM
Shushi... looking at your DK Tank he is frost DW (not much changed with 3.08)... since the patch 2H frost KM tank builds have been scaling really well. My threat went up ~50% with the release of 3.08.

*just food for thought*


edit... good to see another engineer is bored at work and cruises the forums...

This.

HOLY CRAP is the new KM good with a 2H. Frost Strike becomes even more amazing with this change.

nips
01-29-2009, 02:52 PM
just like to back up merko in that a 2h frost build generate alot of threat atm and it seems to scale very well with buffs etc so atleast one of the specs dont have threat issues atm (both singletarget and aoe).

You also have to remeber that warriors have defencive stance witch is 10%dmg reduction. On my dk i vent from 24k to 28k armor after the patch wictch was about 3% dmg reduction and thats about the same as warriors get from def stance. Overall i belive warr/palas/dk have about the same mitigation on a full hit (no block). Dk's might be to op when it comes to avoidance, but i dont think we can conclude to much about that before we encounter harder hitting bosses.

Mammoth
01-29-2009, 03:36 PM
I'm going to take a stab at answering the OPs original question. That question appears to be: Will the fixed nature of Runic Power generation cause DK tanks to fall behind the other tanks as the next levels of gear becomes available?

The reasoning offered is that as DKs gain more avoidance with future upgrades Rune Strike will be available more often. But because Runic Power generates at a fixed rate (i.e. better gear will not increase your Runic Power generation) you will not be able to use all of these extra Rune Strikes.

You may very well be right that you won't be able to use every Rune Strike that becomes available. The problem I see with your concern is that you assume that the other tanks have threat mechanisms that will increase with improved avoidance and/or mitigation. I play a druid. Most boss fights I'm effectively rage capped. I'm already using all the rage and global cooldowns I can; nearly every autoattack is replaced by a Maul. Future upgrades won't improve my threat generation through better avoidance or mitigation stats. More dodge, armor, and stamina are going to increase my survivability, not my threat. I imagine Warriors are in a similar boat. I'm not as familiar with Paladins but I don't believe they are mana starved at the moment so they would also be using all the mana and global cooldowns available.

Much as DKs may be ability-capped because of the fixed nature of Runic Power generation and Rune cooldowns, the other tanks are effectively capped on most fights because they already have all the rage/mana they can use.

Juon
01-29-2009, 09:34 PM
Whoa! Theres so many misconceptions flying about regarding the other tanking classes. (read the ones you are not currently playing)

Although we have stickies and guides listed about the site, a lot of posters may not have parsed through most of them as some of them are links.

Since it has been established that this is tankspot and not droodspot/lolaspot/ToothDKspot/warspot, is it prudent for us to request for the educated community posters to create extensive compilations similiar to what we have for warriors? (i play a warrior and a paladin, for the record)

It will greatly elevate the general misinformation problems of the communities, and provide a good way to discard wrong or outdated guides that are still floating about the interwebz.

Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.

intolerantape
01-30-2009, 12:11 AM
let me get this right...

your a DK with the health pool, armor and defence rating/crit immunity ability of a prot warrior.
your a DK with the avoidance of a Druid
your a DK with the weapons and ability to dual weild of a rogue/fury warrior
your a DK with the ability to aoe like a pally.

what was the problem again ?

Druids don't actually have a ton of avoidance. 50% dodge is very high, even raid buffed, and generally they only have ~5% or so chance to be missed. 50% avoidance (dodge, miss, parry) is pretty standard for a warrior tank with decent gear, unbuffed. No, Death Knight avoidance is far and above what a Druid could ever dream. Counting the 10% parry proc (which should have near 100% uptime) it is pretty easy for a Death Knight to have more avoidance than a 15/5/51 specced warrior has combined dodge+parry+miss+block.

robbon
01-30-2009, 01:53 AM
I am still learning more and more about a class i dont play (DK), so i dont count myself as being "competent" at squaring off against a lvl 80 DK and discussing the finer detail and mechanics of tanking/dpsing as a DK.

So forgive my ignorance.

This thread to me has been very useful as it does confirm a lot of what we are experiencing with the class and the roles which we place the DK in to.

The DK if geared and played well is extremely versatile and extremely competative when compared to other tank classes.

I for one really really hope Blizzard either shift the focus on DK to being more tank or more dps. To be viable as both by just changing gear is not really what the talent trees were designed for imo but thats another thread.



(Intolerantape - noted ty m8.)

Krenian
01-30-2009, 04:31 AM
To be viable as both by just changing gear is not really what the talent trees were designed for imo but thats another thread.



(Intolerantape - noted ty m8.)

-cough-

Even if we do switch gear we are just as likely not to be able to tank like a druid/war/pally will not without the talents required. Yes, we are a little more likely to be able to do it on a tight squeeze, however we will have far less mitigation and will potentially not have the skills and abilities that make tanking far easier.

First ones that come to mind are the avoidance once (Dodge, Parry and the armor bonus.)

robbon
01-30-2009, 04:45 AM
-cough-




lol

I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.

Madoxx
01-30-2009, 05:49 AM
lol

I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.

again this is possible , but you have other factors too the tanking enchant if dps i have my enchant changed to suit the job i don't have two different 2hed weapons with separate enchants , also add the lose of the 3 main tanking talents they add a nice amount of avoidance.

now also look at it this way if i am - the enchant +25 solid def i may be under the def cap of 540 so ill tank a massive lot of crit damage , then again i may still be uncrittable

DK can tank in any build this is true but again missing certain talants and trying to tank while having higher dps can lead to other problem like too much over healing on you as a OT which leads to mana problems for the healers

again though this is similar to most classes , id say warrior above all others though would be more able to OT if dps speced but would still suffer the same problem as a DK dps speced

Krenian
01-30-2009, 05:55 AM
lol

I know thats kinda generalised..but lets just say a DK (i was going to say unholy) build (but in actual fact i think any of the three trees (frost/blood/unholy could viably tank !) was asked to OT in a raid he will most likely switch from dps gear to tank gear and still perform quite adequately and still maintain relatively high dps compared to the MT's.

This is true however you will never achieve the same amount of damage reduction a full spec tank will. Just because your'e 540 uncrit doesn't mean you're not going to take as much damage. I know in my DPS builds, I usually don't get the three defense skills nor do I get Lichbourne which are usually in both frost and unholy builds. Those alone are good tools to mitigate damage.

It's like a Fury warrior putting a shield on. Sure they can do it. It doesn't mean they're doing it with great mitigation. Same as a dps kitty going bear. Same as a ret pally going prot. They all can do it, but it doesn't mean they can do it efficiently. :D

Keza
01-30-2009, 06:03 AM
This.

HOLY CRAP is the new KM good with a 2H. Frost Strike becomes even more amazing with this change.

I recently went with a frost spec centered around obliterate, and yeah, the dps, threat, tanking ability seems improved. I used to be around 1400-1500 raid dps and now am around 1800-1900. I'm still losing to the pah-bleep on threat. We recently did patchwerk with War MT, War #1 OT and myself as #2 OT, vigilance, vigilance...and I passed #1 OT by a wide margin over the course of the fight (better gearing on my part was a factor, but he's good tank too). It was interesting to watch.

I do think our snap threat, not so great, but over the duration of a fight we scale quite nicely. I have noticed in a couple 5-man heroics if I'm lacking rune power or waiting for cooldowns then there is chance the dps'ers pull and get whacked (H Violet Hold, H HoS). It's okay, just a matter of waiting a few secs before next pull...like waiting for pah-bleep to drink.

LK

binatang
02-02-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't see DK's have any problem with TPS now. I've been unholy since day 1, the new patch really pushes the border to Frost KM spec. I refrain from posting the finer details as those of you who have tried both can definitely tell, Frost KM spec is by FAR superior to any DK tanking spec currently.

If you are frost, and you're struggling for threat I'd suggest looking into your rotations and priorities. On AoE pulls, IT - pest - KM+HB will glue the mobs to you, no way for other tanks to pull from you unless they use their aoe taunt. From then on just HB on cooldowns, keep pestilence on CD (puts Blade Barrier + make Death Runes), Rune Strike and Frost Strike at will.

On single target, forgo Howling Blast and just use Obliterate (just use HB when Rime proc for free damage). Refresh diseases accordingly. With that in mind I can easily sustain 6k TPS on single target bosses. With 21 sec IBF, 20 sec Unbreakable Armor, and my 2 on use dodge trinkets, I can always rotate my cooldowns very easily. Lichborne is there even though I only use it at really desperate situation. Going for "Can't get enough" - pulling 18 aboms on KT heroic, I single tanked like 6 aboms at a time.

The difference between that and unholy is huge. DnD/UB cannot hold a candle against KM HB. Seeing 30k every 5 seconds really sold me there. Much better RP dump (FS hits harder than DC, and crits much much harder due to GotG).

I am specced unholy just to run nax10. The run speed and +magicdmg is so valuable when you have 5 caster DPS in your grp. Other than this time, no way am I going back to Unholy.

dotJEM
02-03-2009, 03:01 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.

Correct me if im wrong, but it requires you get damage healed to actually get mana returned right?...

At least this is how things used to be, which then in turns could make Paladins prior to Wotlk go Out of mana, an Out of mana paladin doesn't produce all that much threat does he?

They made huge buffs to both rage gains and i think palas got love to... but nothing is to say that the future doesn't take us the same place as history did.

Juon
02-03-2009, 10:27 PM
Correct me if im wrong, but it requires you get damage healed to actually get mana returned right?...

At least this is how things used to be, which then in turns could make Paladins prior to Wotlk go Out of mana, an Out of mana paladin doesn't produce all that much threat does he?

They made huge buffs to both rage gains and i think palas got love to... but nothing is to say that the future doesn't take us the same place as history did.

Rage based tanks does not gain rage on parries and dodge, which happens more when their avoidance increases. Paladins still gain mana for all kinds of attacks unless it misses.

When I am overgeared for a particular encounter on my warrior, I am especially careful to charge a lot and do chain pulls to conserve rage. The incoming attacks will be filled with dodges, parries and misses. When I block, I gain rage so its ok. But a chain of full non-hits will leave me rage starved. A BoSanc solves my problems.

My paladin will gain less mana from SA if the incoming damage is very little but starts with a full mana pool, gain mana from attacks, blocks, dodges and parries as well. He is never starved badly like my warrior.

2 cents.

Satorri
02-04-2009, 05:16 AM
So sad, there was a while on the Beta where warriors got rage from dodges and parries, and then just dodges. Turns out either made warriors go infini-rage.

I ran with BoSanc last night, first time in a month or so I think, and good god is it OP for DKs! I'm Unholy, I was Corpse Exploding on CD, UB was always up, I was slipping DC's in blackouts, and I still didn't miss a single RS. My working avoidance on trash is averaging 60-64%, that turns into more RP than even I can get rid of, I don't know what I'd do as Blood, but as Frost I figure you could probably just about tank an entire raid with IT and FS. >.>

Maybe wouldn't be the smartest thing, but I'd laugh to see it done.

jere
02-04-2009, 06:10 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but why do paladins threat scale inversely with gear? It does not. Only rage based tanks have this problem.

No, you are incorrect. Mana based tanks have exactly the same problem as rage based tanks in general (actually, mana based tanks have it worse in that respect since we don't even generate our own resources like rage based tanks can). BoSanc solves that problem for both types. One of the major problems is that only one major source of that aspect of the blessing exists, and that does happen to be a mana based tank. However, this does not preclude all rage based tanks from getting it. It is available to every tank as long as you have someone in your raid to buff it (again this is a problem since only one spec of one class provides it). It should definitely have more sources though.

The funny thing about BoSanc, however, is that it isn't really always a source of "infinite mana" in overgeared situations. Typically, I still go mana starved on trash in raids, especially if there are casters mixed in, and most bosses don't hit quickly enough for it to keep me full. The times I get infinite mana are on the hard hitting bosses, and I don't even have BoSanc blessed on those. Bosses like Loatheb, that hit like babies still mana starve me, despite having BoSanc.

Pavor
03-19-2009, 04:13 AM
I don't see why do people have issues with DK TPS. I am a frost specced DK tank, in my TPS set i can easily pull off 5-7k TPS in a heroic raid buffed environment. Blowing trinkets and Unbreakable armor gives you a huge TPS burst.

With an equally skilled / geared warrior / pally / druid tank i am on par in terms of TPS with any of them. I do not see an issue with class TPS balance in that sense. There may be and there probably is a 1%-10% TPS difference between the classes at the moment, but that is not a large enough difference to call for a major change to anything.

I have tanked in all 3 specs, and personally i would have to say that Frost has the highest, by far single target TPS. If you are going in as an unholy and losing out in TPS to other tanks, perhaps you should rethink your spec.

The bigger concern in DK tanking is the fact that DKs are pretty bad at AOE tanking. No, i am not talking about holding aggro, DKs are easily capable of generating as much if not more AOE tps than a pally, but it is the fact that we are lacking block.

Block makes a lot of difference when you are tanking a lot of soft hitting mobs, when a warrior / paladin tanks 20 mobs that hit for 1500 and they have block of 1700-1800... well they aren't exactly taking much damage. A DK on the other hand is going to eat a number of those 1500 hits. You can check with any of your healers, they will tell you that any pally / warr tank does not spike on trash, while a DK spikes are pretty bad.

It's a different story when it comes to boss tanking, as Parri recently showed in his lentghy calculations a frost DK takes on average 20-30% less damage in a boss fight setup as compared to any other tank, purely based on higher avoidance.

However, if DK avoidance is getting nerfed in 3.1, to be back on par with the warr / pally / druid
+ we still do not block
+ longer CDs on critical "oh shit" abilities
+ much lower magic dmg mitigation
What exactly is the future of the DK tank?

Yeah, we certainly retain a number of really cool features that other tank classes do not have, but all the fancy pixels aside - what exactly makes a DK tank in 3.1 better and in what situations? Of course it's terrific when a DK tank does double amount of damage of a prot warrior, but that isn't the bread of tanking.

I have not seen any numbers in terms of DTPS, TTL, etc coming from the 3.1 yet, so i can't draw any final conclusions as of yet, but the words that are in the patch notes, are indeed making me worry.

Privatepyle
03-19-2009, 07:27 AM
First, I will start by saying that most of my tanking experience comes from heroics since i am just beginning to get geared for raids, so this is where my viewpoint will come from. I have a mostly Unholy spec since most pulls in heroics are multiple target pulls. I have a good aoe rotation and a single target rotation that have all seemed to work pretty well. The key for e has always been to start with DnD and then IT>PS>Pest from there it just depends. With IT,PS, and Pest I get enought RP to toss up UB and then start single target smashing until cd for BB is up. Alot of the time BB isnt even necessary since I have good control by the time the cd is up. Between Dark Command and Death Grip I have enough single target moves to pull anything that gets away back to me. Not to say that everything goes perfectly every time, because we all know that is never true. I don't really keep track of my TPS because i'm rather new to tanking (converted healer) and havent gotten used to paying attention to the meters. I do know that most of the time I have control and if I lose anyone it's usually due to their own stupidity. I just wanted to throw that out there because I'm new to tanking and have absolutely fallen in love with it.