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View Full Version : I can't win... It's either threat or surviving?



Danielmi
01-27-2009, 06:11 AM
Okay, firstly I'll start off with I've only played a DK for 7 days played total and I powerleveled this DK on request of the guild. Anyway at first I tried tanking as unholy, albeit the spec was a bit messed up *and my current spec is messed up as well*.

In short I had the threat to tank the content I'm expected to tank but I died rather quickly and even blowing cooldowns I usually dropped fairly fast.
So after some thinking I found a recommended spec for frost and I had a go. Now first impressions where good. I wasn't dying however I noticed my threat was fairly lack luster. Now there is a lesson to be learnt, bringing in your best and most powerful DPS into a heroic for a test isn't a good idea but none the less, threat was an issue. Now my gear says I should be having very little problems tanking if none at all.

So I'm thinking it's a matter of rotation or maybe in my gear I can start optimizing for TPS.

My rotation is,

Single Target
IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-(OB once I've altered my spec)
Now my reasoning *false as it may be*
IT for initial aggro,
PS to allow extra damage done for
BS, getting blade barrier up asap is so far my goal as a tank and an avoidance tank at that,
HB for a bit of extra threat and a 3.5k crit never goes astray
I also use RS when ever available as with DC as an energy dump

Multi-target (2+)
D&D-IT-P-HB *Deathchill when up*-PS-HS
Now reasoning like above is as followed,
D&D Just to give some inital aggro ground settled before the pull.
IT as above
P to spread frost fever
HB for a boost on threat on all the targets
PS as above
and HS to get get BB going,

So I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, I think it's a matter of rotation but I really need some help.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nagrand&n=Vankalas

sawzz
01-27-2009, 06:31 AM
I would not worry a whole lot abou the threat you are putting out now. After you have brought your gear up to the level of the DPSers in your guild if you still have threat issues then I would worry. IMO I dont think you will. Stick to a good rotation and your should be fine.

sawzz
01-27-2009, 06:36 AM
Oh ya single target rotation:

IT PS BS BS OB FS(if you have the runic power) repeat

Aoe rotation:

IT PS Pest BB HB (Blood tap) D&D repeat minus D&D on really large aoe pulls or move to single target rotation.

blahism
01-27-2009, 06:40 AM
Don't look too far into it. Gear comes with progression. Heroic/5mans = avoidance, 10 mans = more expertise/def = valor = expertise/ap/strength - little of everything

Nazhir
01-27-2009, 07:05 AM
I faced the same issue, and found that it was simply a fact that my threat was being knocked off the board within seconds of DPS. I couldn't figure out why

what I see alot of DK tanks doing is stacking defense until they're at bursting point. as you progress and enter raids, you will hit the defense cap - i sacrificed small defense points for substantial dodge and some parry. defense is great with bosses, but without that avoidance, those mobs will tear you apart and bosses won't even enter the picture.

avoidance is the key to survival. A spec cannot fully determine what will happen to you once you hit those elites.

Danielmi
01-27-2009, 07:08 AM
Don't look too far into it. Gear comes with progression. Heroic/5mans = avoidance, 10 mans = more expertise/def = valor = expertise/ap/strength - little of everything

The problem is, I was literally dragged through naxx 25 to get my gear :S
So effectively gear shouldn't be the issue, I'm 5 emblems of valour of the tanking bracers on my pally alt,

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...and&n=Presidium (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nagrand&n=Vankalas)

Satorri
01-27-2009, 07:48 AM
Indeed, you got one heck of a free ride there, looking at your gear. That said, gear is not your weakness.

Your spec is not exactly ideal. It will fair better for survival than threat, by a strong margin. The thing I've been finding is that without staying true to one central theme for threat/rotations on your spec your threat will be markedly lower.

The other major factor is that if you've been power leveled and thrown straight into Naxx25, you haven't been given much of a chance to really learn the class, and tanking with a DK is certainly excelled by having a strong working knowledge of your tools, skills, and talents. Your guild may want to throw you straight into the raiding mix, but I'd HIGHLY recommend running 5-mans heavily in the off-hours. Get to know your gig, with whatever spec you have, and find what works best for you.

Runes
01-27-2009, 08:27 AM
Practice, Practice, Practice... in actual dungeons. Once you get a lot of tanking experience under your belt you will know exactly which button hit for threat generation even when your rotation gets screwed up because of dodges/misses/parried. For maximum threat generation your runes should always be on cooldown and your runic power should never cap out.

Danielmi
01-27-2009, 08:31 AM
Yeah, been trying to get some heroics done to practice to be honest, but you might know how it is, in a guild thats cleared all content getting a heroic together is like pulling teeth and pugs... well some can be good, but the whole is like dirty dishwash.

I guess the thing is not only is it a matter of practice, I guess it's sheer lack of reading or to the point info, about an hour after shut down I looked at other guilds on my servers applications out of sheer boredom and one application basicly due to the fact he was answering questions to test basic knowlege gave me to the point info about basic rotations. Also looking at his spec,

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGxxthcbRhoVosxzg)

Seems to give me an idea on how I may improve. I guess its fascinating where you can get good information these days.

Satorri
01-27-2009, 12:02 PM
I have a post here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/44479-decent-tank-spec.html) describing the various trees, if that helps pick what appeals to you, though, while expensive, there's nothing quite like playing them out to see what feels good to you.

Ari
01-27-2009, 01:31 PM
I faced the same issue, and found that it was simply a fact that my threat was being knocked off the board within seconds of DPS. I couldn't figure out why

what I see alot of DK tanks doing is stacking defense until they're at bursting point. as you progress and enter raids, you will hit the defense cap - i sacrificed small defense points for substantial dodge and some parry. defense is great with bosses, but without that avoidance, those mobs will tear you apart and bosses won't even enter the picture.

avoidance is the key to survival. A spec cannot fully determine what will happen to you once you hit those elites.

Defense is avoidance, and what's more, it's probably better than dodge.

taek
01-27-2009, 04:10 PM
Use your Multi target rotation for single target. DnD is 1.9x threat modifier, you want it regardless of single or AE. I assume you're using Blood Tap to Howling Blast immediately and not waiting for your runes to come off cooldown.


I also use RS when ever available as with DC as an energy dump

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're actually hitting Runestrike as a button? This RS should be macro'd into all your strike abilities:


#showtooltip
/cast Blood Strike
/cast Rune StrikeI have this macro on all my strikes...so RS is basically automatic.

DC = Deathcoil? You shouldn't be using Deathcoil as Frost, you should be using Frost Strike. And you shouldn't be Frost Striking as soon as the RP is avialable...your RP should be high in case you get a string of RS procs. I only FS to avoid just burning RP...essentally only when i'm at 100% RP. Using FS as soon as you get 40 (or even 60) RP severely limits how many RS you get, as its unpredictable.

The exception are KM procs...a guaranteed crit FS is comparable to a RS so i'll burn RP for those.

Satorri
01-28-2009, 07:26 AM
1.) Defense is good yes, but better than dodge? Not really, just different. Each has distinct merit, and even the new IBF scaling isn't enough for me to want to stack massive defense. Pure dodge will get you farther for avoidance and provide pure RS proc material. I also haven't socketed dodge at all, and I'm still pushing 28% on sheet, with no buff but HoW. I'll take Agi over dodge any day.

2.) DnD is good threat yes, but best value on every pull? I disagree. Right before the end of the beta, they removed bonus threat from DnD so you may want to corroborate your sources. Depending on how you plan your glyphs/spec you can get more value out of single target moves for those three runes, not the least of which from additional RP gains since DnD only gives 15 RP these days.

3.) RS macros are nice ways to keep RS being used, though I still keep an eye for procs to trigger RS between shots too. The way I see it, the other buttons are just an additional way to trigger it rather than only using a separate keybind.