View Full Version : Sartharion 3 Drake 10 Man [Video]
01-27-2009, 02:43 AM
The word that comes to mind is FINALLY. After weeks of random tries and just knowing we could do it "if only we had right group" we finally did it.
- 3 Tanks (Warrior, Death Knight and Paladin)
- 3 Healers (Paladins and 2 Druids)
- 4 DPS (Shaman, Mage, Warlock and Priest)
It's pretty ironic the above group managed it since we pre-patch where convinced over a melee / hunter group. We where also questioning if the druids could pull the healing off, but looking at the tries and kill - healing was the least of our issues.
In the end we had quite a clean kill and the evening only had a handfull of tries before success. Server first also (well horde first at least, we're in debate with a migrated alliance guild what the definition of "server first is" :D)
TNE_Sartharion_3_Drake_10m.mov - FileFront.com@@AMEPARAM@@http://static3.filefront.com/ffv6/player/vp_embed.swf?v=928132@@AMEPARAM@@static3.filefront .com/ffv6/player/vp_embed.swf?v=928132
You see the fight from my perspective, a protection warrior, in-charge of the mini-boss tanking. Since my camera is quite zoomed out you get a decent overview of the whole fight. As usual I've added small comments through out the fight.
As noted in another thread they have to some extent made the event harder. The main tank of Sartharion is now 100% required to have cool-downs to survive which wasn't the case before (and made it possible for a warrior to tank him with some skill and luck).
It's quite interesting (or frustrating) Blizzard does this, esp. to the 10 man version, seeing it does make it a lot harder for most classes to even have the possibility of tanking Sartharion him self with out demanding a lot from the raid. I could see a warrior or paladin do it but they are by far the worst class to place there (until all mini-bosses are dead, but given the DK changes I'm not sure where we stand on that front either). If Blizzard is going to base events surrounding cool-downs all tanks should have similar abilities here - one shouldn't "shine" above the rest so to speak.
Never the less - this is one of those things in Wrath currently that makes me still "beilive" in Blizzard and that there will be awesome encounters to come. Oh, and yeah, Sartharion is my "bitch" now - I got the mount on a lucky roll! :D
Enjoy the film and feel free to ask any questions.
01-27-2009, 07:29 AM
Couple of questions from someone trying to put a group together.
1. What spec did your DK go with for the fight? Ill be the DK MT also and trying to hammer that out.
2. What CDs (somewhat dependent on the DKs spec) did you use to keep the MT alive during the big breaths?
3. What kinda DPS were the DPSer putting out? Average.
Thanks and Grats
01-28-2009, 02:17 AM
Hey Ray and thanks Relar!
I'll have to ask our DK what spec he used…*I know he went dual wielding for more stats even if his threat was crap at the start. After 3 drakes where down he went back to a 2-hander again. He was virtually self-sufficient with CD's as long as the breaths where a bit further than 12s appart (which on the kill they where, where on other tries he called for the two pallies in the raid to help out).
So I guess the above answers 1 and 2…*Sadly I have a bit to little insight into DK's to answer what he did, but he as stated managed him self and we had two paladins on back-up (1 holy and 1 prot.). The fight is as of patch 3.08 extremely favorable for a DK over any other class in the MT spot on Sartharion. The other option I'd see "easy" is perhaps having 2 hunters for their pet-sacrifices and prey sartharion doesn't breath more often than every 15s…
DPS was in the end not "super" but it's an odd fight to measure dps in since there are multiple mobs spawning, running, portal taking (i.e dps mot even messured on my recount) and so forth. At the end of the fight people where between 3-3.5K on my recount but that's not 100% accurate as stated.
Looking at learning the fight we had wipe-tries with drake 1 and an almost dead drake 2 where we saw people from 3.5 to 5K DPS. The shadow priest was insane in raw numbers where however a lot of his dps came from AoE on the adds. On other nights we've had similar figures where one of the dps:ers fall behind in the 2-2.5K dps reigon. That's too low even if a say a 2.5K dps:ing shaman might be worth it IF the other classes compensate. DPS warriors are awesome in the fight for instance.
The DPS rule of thumb is that you want to bring down the first drake before he spawns a second wave of whelps. Then your dps is adequate so to speak. Bloodlust helps tremendously in the fight so bring a shaman in one form or another! Also optimizing DPS for either melee / physical OR magical is recommended but not required. A moonkin could pre patch 3.08 use hurricane on Sartharion to slow his casts down which was quite nice on our first 25 man kill, but not sure if that still works or not.
As you can see from our kill we had no class able to dispel enraged adds which wasn't a huge issue either. I would however recommend the 3 healer / 3 tank setup - we tried 2 tanks at the start for more dps but in the end had to many issues with that.
That's a bit about that... Good luck with your progress :)
01-28-2009, 07:58 AM
Bujaberry here, the DK tank of this kill vid.
Hopefully i can answer a few of your questions
1. What spec did your DK go with for the fight? Ill be the DK MT also and trying to hammer that out.The base of the spec is something like, with a few spare points for your own personal flavour:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZ0xZfgu00coge0Rcoux)
A few minor notes about this:
- Anti-magic zone is not needed, but can help for sure. The one thing that happened during 1 attempt is that the size of the breath was from the top range, had very little resistance on it, and the reduction from bone armor was NOT sufficient. Note this happened once only, not a big issue, but having AMZ up with boneshield can help reduce the luck (or bad luck for that matter) factor.
- Shadow of death is nice for snatching the extra 2% stamina, every little bit helps. I remember 1 try (during a wipe night with less than ideal setup) where the breath hit me for 200 hp overkill :)
- Bone shield is a MUST, especially glyphed its amazing.
2. What CDs (somewhat dependent on the DKs spec) did you use to keep the MT alive during the big breaths?
I tried to stay alive as much as I could relying on my own cooldowns, and just notifying the paladins to be aware, if the breaths happen shortly one after another I will need some help. The breaths can happen from 12-30sec apart from each other.
With the recent changes to DK tanking it has made the fight much more easier for us (comparing to pre-patch). Earlier I had issues with staying alive on the breaths BEFORE the extra debuff from Vesperon's Disciple (+75% fire/shad dmg). Now with the extra 10% spell absorption, no longer an issue.
The moment you need to start rotating CDs is when Vesperon's Disciple spawns and you receive the debuff called Twilight Torment (+75% fire/shad dmg). Note that before the last patch you could remove this debuff by simply hitting the boss, which is no longer possible, thus requiring a rotation of CDs to stay alive.
I started off with the shortest CD possible always. Anti-magic shell, 45 sec CD, absorbs all magical damage (talented) for 5seconds. Next was either Icebound Fortitude or Bone Armor. With a 4set t7 bonus, it is possible to "catch" 2 breaths with 1 Icebound Fortitude, which is simply amazing. After my death while having Bone Armor up on a breath, I started being extra cautious, and simply popped my "last stand" trinket together with Bone Armor to reduce the chance of dying. Bone armor can be used as well with Anti-magic Zone (3min CD) just in case. Glyphing Bone Armor for extra 2 charges is very helpful here.
One very important note, is to inform the players that will have Cds ready for you in case of often breaths to have the boss on focus and to let them know when you no longer have a way out of the next breath. The point behind this is, if you decide to say it when the breath actually does happen it may be too late. The cast is 2sec, and by the time you say you need a CD on vent, by the time the other player reacts, most likely the cast will be over and you'll be dead.
3. What kinda DPS were the DPSer putting out? Average.
Thugs already answered this roughly. But just a note, as you spec into Ebon Plaguebringer (increase 13% magical dmg for your raid if a disease is up), it is handy to have your Mini-Drake tank drag them over so you can pop a icy touch or whatever else on it for that extra 13% dmg (in case of a caster based group).
Playing MT role here isn't very hard, keep an eye out for debuffs, be aware what abilities you have next and plan out how you will use them.
As two final notes, it is worth mentioning once again that once each drake dies Sartharions melee hits become harder. I started the fight with 2 x 1hers (with spellbreaking, for a total of -4% magical dmg) for extra stats, so I could swap out for a few more stamina pieces. Once Twilight Torment was out, slapped my 2her back on with swordshattering for that extra 4% parry (make sure you are still crit immune with all the gear swaps). The -2% magical damage meta is nice as well. It all adds up in the end.
20% base resistance (15% from frost presence + 5% from talents), 4% from runeforging, 2% from meta gem, 3% from either BoSanc or Vigulence. Thats 29% off each breath, which is quite nice.
The last thing that helps, is how to keep up blade barrier while the boss is immune to damage (bloodstrikes do not trigger blood runes during the immunity "phase"). Pestilence, and pestilence again, on the moving you can see me jumping around just spamming pestilence;)
Good Luck, and i hope I've helped a bit.
01-28-2009, 12:01 PM
I'm curious if anyone has considered the Imp Intervene talent as a means of mitigation. You'd have to use it right at the start of the cast so you could get out of the way quick enough, but it's a 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds.
Don't know if getting out would pose a huge problem though. Especially if your drake tank is coming into range for the DK to disease, might as well Intervene over, then charge the drake again for a free CD.
Just a thought.
Wow, thanks guys for the indepth answers!!!
I know the basics and have done my Home work (hell, i even did out the math for the top end breaths) and just trying to get every detail I can. I sorta thought DK tanking this was sorta dead, or very CD reliant, but as you have said, its not, and you can still be rally self reliant.
One last question, as I see in your spec you dont go down to VotW, what was your HP lvl? I was thinking of a spec like this:
Sarth Max Stam (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0kIhcoZhxZfgzhx0ore0R0o)
But, Grats again, and thanks for the help.
01-29-2009, 02:23 AM
Glad my answers somewhat helped you. A while back when we were just trying to learn the encounter to see how it goes i actually did go down to pick up VotW. It is of course a very nice talent, but the spec I currently am using is something I have modified for normal 25man tanking and 3drake sarth.
If you want to min/max your stats while learning the encounter thats great. Every little bit helps while learning, do note that your TPS will be absolute crap while picking up VotW, but as long as you're comfortable with respeccing for this encounter every time and let your DPS'ers know they should chill a bit, due to sub-par threat, you'll be fine.
Heres my armory profile, the gear used is roughly the same, and used this spec last week. I crafted the titansteel headpiece for using the 2nd meta gem, the -2% spelldmg one and just a few minor gear changes to get highest hp possible, but the setup was very similar to what i have on now.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://armory.wow-europe.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Agamaggan&n=Bujaberry)
Fully buffed up before the boss debuffs, I was at 41.5k hp, which comes from 33k unbuffed or something like that. (note armory does not show frost presence).
Wish you good luck, as this is one of the few encounters left in game that actually feel rewarding when getting the kill :)
Edit: Just a quick edit to answer Vapes, if your warrior can intervene and charge out within 2 seconds (minus reaction times and lag) why not. Note that if he's not fast enough, he will just get instagibbed. I was also just tossing out diseases onto the first add and he was kind of important to get down fast. Later I was focussing on surviving and dancing between voidzones and lavawalls :)
01-30-2009, 12:03 PM
Awesome answers Bujaka. I got a catch of the fluebug this week so sort of drifted away…
Regarding Imp Intervene it could in theory work but it's one of the most complicated abilities to use in the event… Trust me, I've looked into it cause I get a bit "pissed off" on how Blizzard has treated this event (go go DK's for MT :-)).
Anyhow... You could possibly sort it with a macro and so minimise lag and what not, 2 seconds is a very short time-frame to react, intervene and charge out on something… You could run into potential other issue as well with the adds or esp. the minibosses inflicting damage on the raid (or even the Sartharion MT).
What u def. can do is intervene and shield wall to save the MT on one of the breaths but that doesn't really make the Imp Intervene that useful here… I guess you could have the add off-tank intervene the MT of Sartharion every time it's off CD or something and hope to get lucky but I think that would just make the fight more complex than anything.
Oh, I can just "testify" for the fact intervening and charging when the firewalls are up should be done with care. It's very easy to "fuck it up" so to speak - miss-judge the speed of something. If used correctly these are a life-saver, but using them to get to the MT in-front of Sartharion and then get back out... It could get messy :)
02-01-2009, 01:41 PM
Eyy, I'm expecting to get a group together with some competent people sometime next week, and I had a few questions--mainly regarding Bujaberry's job, but not limited to.
. How much HP generally do you have? Is it to the point where you are able to survive without cooldowns until Vesperon's Acolyte spawns? Or do you need to begin popping them on Shadron's Acolyte?
. In this case, you only need to pop cooldowns when: Shadron, Shadron's Acolyte, and Vesperon's Acolyte are alive? Therefore, you should be significantly set on survival?
. Does the Flame Breaths hit less in 10-man than 25-man?
. Would you feel more comfortable with a Holy Paladin/Restoration Druid/Holy Priest, for Guardian Spirit, instead of dual Restoration Druids? If not, what makes dual Restoration Druids more significant? -- Is that extra Innervate really noticeable?
. How dramatic is a Shadow Priest beneficial to the raid? If you had a replacement with a significant amount of DPS (per say an additional Arcane Mage) capable of ~6000 DPS, and to an extent stronger AoE, would it be a willing trade off?
. From what I noticed in your video, the raid only took the Twilight Portal once Shadron was dead, correct? Then killed both Acolytes, and (at this point your video cut out for me, and I could not watch the rest) focusing on a priority of Elementals --> Vesperon's Acolyte --> Vesperon? As you had your Protection Paladin tank inside the portal?
. How often did you AoE? Was there any significant 'benchmark' as to when you (Protection Paladin/group itself(?)) would call out to AoE? Per say, your first call out being when Tenebron spawns whelps, second being midway Shadron dying, then another when Shadron dies to prepare for the portal--then simply whenever Vesperon would summon another portal?
02-02-2009, 02:23 AM
I can try to answer a few of those:
How much HP generally do you have?
This was awnsered above - about 31.5K unbuffed which in this fight with buffs leads to about the save figure (a bit less) when in combat with the 25% HP reduction.
I would try to avoid this fight not having kings, fort and commanding shout.
Is it to the point where you are able to survive without cooldowns until Vesperon's Acolyte spawns? Or do you need to begin popping them on Shadron's Acolyte?
Only Bujaberry can answer this. As a warrior you only need a cool down rotation when Vesperon's Acolyte spawns.
In this case, you only need to pop cooldowns when: Shadron, Shadron's Acolyte, and Vesperon's Acolyte are alive? Therefore, you should be significantly set on survival?
That's the case for a warrior but could be different for a Death Knight. Bujaberry did state he's self-sufficient as long as the breaths where not coming 12 seconds apart every time.
Does the Flame Breaths hit less in 10-man than 25-man?
Yes it does if they haven't changed this with patch 3.08. One change is you ALWAYS have the Twilight Torment Debuff as long as Vesperon's Acolyte is alive.
Would you feel more comfortable with a Holy Paladin/Restoration Druid/Holy Priest, for Guardian Spirit, instead of dual Restoration Druids? If not, what makes dual Restoration Druids more significant? -- Is that extra Innervate really noticeable?
Our healing setup was actually just based on what was available at the time of the raid. Druid / priest / pallie would be perhaps a more "optimal" setup. We got out priest buffs from the dark side so we didn't require one healing us.
How dramatic is a Shadow Priest beneficial to the raid?
As a pure damage-dealer they do great. That's all I can say from my experience. This could be the class or the people I play with, but this is what I've seen. In the Sartharion fight it's also about class buffs… A shadow priests increases the raids HP and gives mana back during the fight.
From what I noticed in your video, the raid only took the Twilight Portal once Shadron was dead, correct?
I think that's correct yes… To sum it up:
- I was on mini-bosses and was also calling out raid-wide events on vent (safe positions for fire walls for instance)
- Kandiru was tanking the adds and taking portals
- Our priority, or kill order, was to kill Tenebron > clear up adds > Sharadon > clear up adds > Shadron's Minion > Vesperon > clear up adds > Vesperon's Minion.
Note that the "clearing of adds" is very dependant on the raid, how many enraged elementals you've gotten and so forth. Many tries we had next-to-no add issues, where others they where over-whelming us. It's about a bit of luck but mostly positioning and grouping up a bit. Try to collect the adds in the proximity of the miniboss for AoE bursts every so often.
Also, even when I don't have a miniboss to tank in the end the add-tank ran down below just to avoid the confusion of someone else being on top of the fire-wall call outs and so forth. I could also keep essential buffs and debuffs up at the top.
How often did you AoE?
We only cleared the field when we needed too. The whelps increase the damage to the tank of these quite a bit since he receives a 15000 armor reduction debuff from these. These also increase the "chaos" on the playing-field and the risk off the tank or another player accidentally standing in a void zone with out knowing it.
The use of AoE really is based on your group. In general the biggest threat to the raid is the sartharion tank being one shot, which he will if shadron, his minion and vesperons minion is up and he's not using a cool-down to survive. Hence you want to shorten the time this is the case, hence avoid wasting DPS on "adds" as much is possible is advisable.
A lot of classes have natural AoE they can use. A warrior for instance brings cleave and whirlwind that won't affect his dps noticeably on the main-killing-target. A rogue can do fan of knives and so forth. The main thing is to focus on the mini-bosses while keeping track of the adds.
We clear the field as stated when we need too. If the add-tank is going into the portal it's quite a good idéa not having him tank 3-4 elementals while doing so. These will instagib a healer as he takes the portal. This is a given but can be "missed" in the heat of the moment.
Hope that gives you some one insight.
02-02-2009, 02:57 AM
Oh, after rereading Bujaberry's post, I realized most of my questions had already been answered.. Sorry ;]
But thanks, still!
Again, much appreciated, and good luck in Ulduar :]
02-08-2009, 02:18 PM
the Video is not available anymore. Could you maybe reupload it?
I've seen it and really would like to show it to my Guild.
02-10-2009, 07:59 AM
Download still works, stream just doesn't appear to.
Either way, good job.
The download doesn't work for me (neither the stream). Can anyone re-upload the video?