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Paramount
01-26-2009, 12:04 PM
So I have both.

Generally I've been using Broken promise all the time. I figured that the higher dps on it plus the higher deep wounds damage would make up for the faster attack speed of the red sword.

But when it comes to infinite rage situations; I pretty much sit at 100 rage the whole time. Even when I'm heroic striking constantly.

So my question is this:

Should I switch to using the red sword on fights like patchwerk so I can increase my heroic strike usage?

Also another question:

When is broken promise a good choice?

My initial gut reaction has changed towards the mindset that I'll be using broken promise on trash and Red Sword on hard hitting bosses.

Here's my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dunemaul&n=Paramount)

Bayho
01-27-2009, 12:03 PM
There are quite a few posts here about this subject. The short of it is that Broken Promise will not produce more threat than the Red Sword. The amount of Heroic Strikes you can throw out with a faster weapon is significantly more threat, and damage I believe, than the increased damage with Deep Wounds. I recall someone saying you would need an absurd amount of AP to make up the difference, something like 11k, but do not quote me on that.

pompuspilot
01-27-2009, 12:45 PM
i use broken promise and you will hear all day how the faster weapon is better...maybe it is, but i like the additional damage i do with the slower weapon. i also have never seen a problem with threat. its basically up to you if you like promise use it..if you like the faster weapon use it instead. the days when a fast weapon was mandatory are past. i do a lot more threat and damage with other abilities then hs. poeple will argue about this till the cow comes home, so do what you think is right. this is just my opinion.

Kru
01-28-2009, 07:01 AM
If for a given fight your rage is sitting capped at 100, then you're better off with the fast sword. Any other time, you're better off with Broken Promise.

You could break that down into bosses vs. trash, but there's lots of bosses I'm not rage capped on so that may be a bit simplistic.

veneretio
01-28-2009, 07:27 AM
i use broken promise and you will hear all day how the faster weapon is better...maybe it is, but i like the additional damage i do with the slower weapon. i also have never seen a problem with threat. its basically up to you if you like promise use it..if you like the faster weapon use it instead. the days when a fast weapon was mandatory are past. i do a lot more threat and damage with other abilities then hs. poeple will argue about this till the cow comes home, so do what you think is right. this is just my opinion.
Broken Promise is not extra damage, that's the point.

With a faster weapon like the Red Sword in a High Rage situation (like every decent boss fight), you'll not only do more threat b/c of Heroic Strike spam, but also do more Damage. The days of fast weapons being mandatory aren't past, not even close. In fact, it's quite the opposite. We play in a world of constant High Rage situations which is the very reason we use Fast Weapons. There has NEVER been a time in the game when Fast Weapons were as consistently strong as they are right now.


If for a given fight your rage is sitting capped at 100, then you're better off with the fast sword. Any other time, you're better off with Broken Promise.

You could break that down into bosses vs. trash, but there's lots of bosses I'm not rage capped on so that may be a bit simplistic.

This guy basically nailed it. On trash, sure go to town with Broken Promise, but on any boss that's doing a decent amount of damage, it's time to rock on the Red Sword.

Taelas
01-28-2009, 07:31 AM
There are quite a few posts here about this subject. The short of it is that Broken Promise will not produce more threat than the Red Sword. The amount of Heroic Strikes you can throw out with a faster weapon is significantly more threat, and damage I believe, than the increased damage with Deep Wounds. I recall someone saying you would need an absurd amount of AP to make up the difference, something like 11k, but do not quote me on that.

Quick math.

Red Sword of Courage, DPS 143.4, speed 1.6, strength ~26 (52 AP). Average hit, ~235 damage.
Broken Promise, DPS 156.6, speed 2.5, strength ~30 (60 AP). Average hit, ~402 damage.

Assuming infinite rage over the course of one minute and perfect Heroic Strike uptime:
Red Sword of Courage: 37 Heroic Strikes. Total damage, 495+235 x 37, or 27010.
Broken Promise: 24 Heroic Strikes. Total damage, 495+402 x 24, or 21528.

Crit:
Assuming 10% crit (25% Heroic Strike):
Red Sword of Courage: 37 x .25 x 495+235: 6753
Broken Promise: 24 x .25 x 495+402: 5382

Deep Wounds damage:
Red Sword of Courage: 37 x .25 x 495+235 x .48: 3242
Broken Promise: 24 x .25 x 495+402 x .48: 2584

Total damage from Heroic Strike:
Red Sword of Courage: 37005
Broken Promise: 29494

Diffence: 7511
That's the speed related difference. The difference in Deep Wounds damage is around ~80 damage... and I have ONLY modelled the weapons.

Devastate and Thunder Clap have the same crit rate, and all of their crits will be pure benefit. Shield Slam crits, Revenge crits, Damage Shield crits... all of them benefit from the slow weapon.

I'm not enough of a math whiz to model Deep Wounds accurately over all of these factors, but consider that the difference in damage will be consistently higher with Broken Promise over Red Sword of Courage.

Plus, Devastate itself will hit harder. Even Shield Slam has more benefit from the slow weapon as it has better stats.

Horacio
01-28-2009, 07:35 AM
I pray BP drops and our pally tank takes it so I don't have to argue with him over Last Laugh.

AoDraka
01-28-2009, 07:37 AM
I'm thinking Broken Promise was added for DK Tanks whose every attack is instant and relies on a portion of weapon damage, yes?

Taelas
01-28-2009, 07:39 AM
I'm thinking Broken Promise was added for DK Tanks whose every attack is instant and relies on a portion of weapon damage, yes?

That's not correct -- Death Knights have an ONA-strike. Rune Strike.

veneretio
01-28-2009, 07:50 AM
I'll just piggy back your math as best I can to fill in the rest of the gabs, Norrath. Assuming perfect global cooldown usage over a minute, we'll get 40 GCDs.

Assuming your 10% crit, 15 Devastates (25% crit) and 13 Shield Slams (25% crit)

12 * .10 * 235 * .48 + 28 * .25 * 235 * .48 = 924.96

12 x .10 x 402 x .48 + 28 * .25 * 402 * .48 = 1582.27

Now granted there may be a few more Shield Slams, but I mean... is that going to magically bridge the over 7000 damage gap?

How many Devastates are we going to do? 20 would be the maximum possible if we were using the old school rotation of SS > Rev > Dev > Dev. I think we can all agree that the actually number of Devastates has to be closer to 15 in a minute.

I wish I had more time at work to figure this part out, but somebody run with this... 15 Devastates... what's the damage breakdown? Is it enough to make up 7000 damage? 7000/15 is only 466.7 damage... so maybe it's possible?

veneretio
01-28-2009, 08:24 AM
Okay, this was killing me being lazy so I dug up some Devastate data from this old school thread (which is still accurate): http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/31910-devastate-faq.html

Red Sword average damage: 235
Broken Promise average damage: 402

Let's assume 3500 AP since that's pretty reasonable with a lot of raid buffs. (I'm not including the AP difference b/c frankly it's so minor that it's not going to skew our results that much)

3500 / 14 * 2.4 = 600

As you can see that both weapons have their AP normalized around 2.4 speed, so there's no compelling advantage for either weapon thus far.

600 + 235 = 835
600 + 402 = 1002

I'm not going to add the Sunder damage bonus cause it'll affect both equally. So, let's move to dividing this by 2 to get our actually Devastate damage.

835 / 2 = 417.5
1002 / 2 = 501

Let's add in the assumed 10% crit + 15% additional crit from SnB for a total of 25% to crit.

417.5 * 1.25 = 521.9
501 * 1.25 = 626.3

The Difference: 501 - 417.5 = 104.4

15 GCDs * 104.4 = 1566 damage

Now granted I could have fudged the math a little bit between the Deep Wounds GCD procs and this Devastate math, but the reality is... the gab that Broken Promise has to climb is 7500 damage. It's not even coming close to bridging that gab.

What should you take away from this?

Heroic Strike is A LOT of our damage so Faster is better.

How much better would the Slow weapon's DPS have to be?

Well to make up that 7000 damage mark, it'd need to be 466.7 damage better per Devastate than Red Sword. So, let's work backwards.

521.9 + 466.7 = 988.6
988.6 / 1.25 = 790.88
790.88 * 2 = 1581.76
1581.76 - 600 = 981.76 Average damage
981.76 / 2.5 weapon speed = 392.7

392.7 dps

That's how much DPS a 2.5 speed weapon would have to do to bridge that Devastate gap. Now granted, Deep Wounds would kick some major ass with a slow weapon that high in dps so it's likely not that extreme... but the point is, even in later content when you've got a 200 dps weapon, if it's 2.5 speed, it's still not better than Red Sword of Courage.

Kalbitang
01-28-2009, 08:52 AM
I pray BP drops and our pally tank takes it so I don't have to argue with him over Last Laugh.

haha, good luck with that. :)

Galushi
01-28-2009, 09:23 AM
The dps listed on the Broken promise isnt what your going for to overcome the HS's of redsword. It's the fact that since its much slower, deepwounds (and rend if you use it, which with a slow weapon becomes very nice) does a considerable amount of extra damage. To say that the slower weapon needs to be 392dps to overcome the HS spamming defiency is a little biased. You get a little less proc rate on the deepwounds cuz your MH is swinging slower, but all the GCD instants and dmgshield crits are proccing much higher deep wounds damage then what you'd get with Red Sword of Courage.

If your rage capped, sure a fast weapon will let you dump more rage and will be better. If your not capped, slower tank weapons i think will edge it out maybe. Especially for OT/dpsing duties when your not even close to rage capped. But its not really a cut and dry Faster is better case these days.

Id also keep in mind that Broken promise has some expertise on it, which is a harder to come by tanking stat.

To really test which weapon is better is going to take a lot of numbers crunching and/or numerous tests in a raid enviroment which would be very hard to get consistant unbiased results.

veneretio
01-28-2009, 09:36 AM
The dps listed on the Broken promise isnt what your going for to overcome the HS's of redsword. It's the fact that since its much slower, deepwounds (and rend if you use it, which with a slow weapon becomes very nice) does a considerable amount of extra damage. To say that the slower weapon needs to be 392dps to overcome the HS spamming defiency is a little biased. You get a little less proc rate on the deepwounds cuz your MH is swinging slower, but all the GCD instants and dmgshield crits are proccing much higher deep wounds damage then what you'd get with Red Sword of Courage.
Yup, I admit that bias, but I mean even if we throw in that Damaging Shield procs 20 times in a minute which is crazy high for single target tanking, we get the following:

20 * .10 * 235 * .48 = 225.6
20 * .10 * 402 * .48 = 385.92

Which is hardly enough to bridge any kind of gap. Red Sword started with a 7500 damage lead and Broken Promise gained:

40 GCDs: 1582.27-924.96 = 657.31
20 Damaging Shield procs: 385.92 - 225.6 = 160.32
15 Devastates * 104.4 = 1566

657.31 + 160.32 + 1566 = 2383.63 damage

It's still not even close to the massive lead from Heroic Strikes and I'll admit that it's easier to be perfect with Heroic Strikes with a slow weapon than a fast, but that still won't change that the Faster weapon has such a massive lead. (not to mention if you add player error... we'll be removing even more Devastates since it's the first thing to go in a less than perfect minute rotation)

Sarris
01-28-2009, 09:41 AM
I pray BP drops and our pally tank takes it so I don't have to argue with him over Last Laugh.

You read my mind. Specially since ours is using a blue weapon still.

Daavos
01-28-2009, 09:42 AM
Guess i'm doing it wrong.

BP on Shapprion

WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/qc1pwdhlpojdm?s=588695-654388&a=x5a015a)

BP on patch

http://wowwebstats.com/qc1pwdhlpojdm?a=x5a015a&s=318877-357659

veneretio
01-28-2009, 10:00 AM
Guess i'm doing it wrong.

BP on Shapprion

WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/qc1pwdhlpojdm?s=588695-654388&a=x5a015a)

BP on patch

WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/qc1pwdhlpojdm?a=x5a015a&s=318877-357659)
Yes, unfortunately, your dps could have been much higher with the Red Sword. It also looks like you aren't Heroic Striking nearly enough as well even with Broken Promise's 2.5 Speed.

That's an important factor in all of this math. It's assuming you're Heroic Striking, a lot. If because of either lack of rage or simply because of lack of attention to 100% HS uptime, you'll see higher gains from Broken Promise.

To put it bluntly, if you aren't seeing higher DPS from Red Sword on Patchwerk, you're simply not playing good enough.

Daavos
01-28-2009, 11:14 AM
Yes, unfortunately It also looks like you aren't Heroic Striking nearly enough as well even with Broken Promise's 2.5 Speed.

That's an important factor in all of this math. It's assuming you're Heroic Striking, a lot. If because of either lack of rage or simply because of lack of attention to 100% HS uptime, you'll see higher gains from Broken Promise.

To put it bluntly, if you aren't seeing higher DPS from Red Sword on Patchwerk, you're simply not playing good enough.


unfortunately, your dps could have been much higher with the [Red Sword... If because of either lack of rage or simply because of lack of attention to 100% HS uptime, you'll see higher gains from Broken Promise

Ah... What?


To put it bluntly, if you aren't seeing higher DPS from Red Sword on Patchwerk, you're simply not playing good enough.

I don't have the Redsword, i have the 1.5 tank weapon from nax. So i can't make a direct comparison.

I'd like to see a WWS with the redsword or the another fast tank weapon. Tanking excel sheets under assuming optiminal conditions isn't winning me over.


you're simply not playing good enough

jump in the well

Alstott
01-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Anyone care to re-do the math but for Last Laugh, so we can see definitively how much better it is over BP? It's something I've always wondered, and I'd go back and do it myself except the details of the calcs aren't listed here.

Satrina
01-28-2009, 11:36 AM
Looking at a 4 minute Patches fight, you get 96 white swings with a 2.5 speed weapon, and 150 with a 1.6 speed weapon.

Edit: Here's some better numbers
4000AP -> +285DPS

Broken Promise averages 391 damage per swing + 495 HS + 714 from AP = 1601 damage per hit
Red Sword averages 229 damage per swing + 495 HS + 457 from AP = 1182 damage per hit
Last Laugh averages 274 damage per swing + 495 HS + 457 from AP = 1227 damage per hit

Those hits ignore mitigation from opponent's armour, but that divides through equally anyway. Assuming perfect HS uptime (which should be what you are shooting for on Patches)

96 * 1601 = 153696
150 * 1182 = 177300
150 * 1227 = 184050

This isn't advanced theorycraft, it's just basic math.

Edit2: At 2.5 speed, your weapon would need to be about 255DPS to match the HS performance of Red Sword and about 285DPS to match Last Laugh

Galushi
01-28-2009, 11:51 AM
So then we have to figure out if increased deepwounds dmg can make up the 50k (or 35k) total dmg discrepancy. Probably wont, but at least it closes the gap some. Oh and the slight increase in devastate damage which is probably negligible.

Satrina
01-28-2009, 11:56 AM
Yep, but I really should be working so that's a project for someone else.

Muffin Man
01-28-2009, 11:57 AM
Ah... What?

I don't have the Redsword, i have the 1.5 tank weapon from nax. So i can't make a direct comparison.

I'd like to see a WWS with the redsword or the another fast tank weapon. Tanking excel sheets under assuming optiminal conditions isn't winning me over.

Redsword (and Slayer of the Lifeless) gain their dps edge from squeezing out more heroic strikes. They're inferior at everything else, but in a good parse you'll see HS do ~30% of a tanks damage. Second and third would be SS and Rev.

So out of the top 3 moves the only HS is dependent on the weapon. If your parse doesn't follow this, then the fast weapon/slow weapon debate doesn't really matter (ie, trash pulls or random low rage fights). Basically, you *have to* spam heroic strike to maximize Red Swords advantage (and your general dps no matter what weapon).

I agree about wws or better modelling. BP has 20 expertise at the cost of 10 hit. You can argue that the dps and str difference are inconsequential, but 20 expertise is *a lot*.

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=37401;39344;40345)

FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).

Daavos
01-28-2009, 01:32 PM
Redsword (and Slayer of the Lifeless) gain their dps edge from squeezing out more heroic strikes. They're inferior at everything else, but in a good parse you'll see HS do ~30% of a tanks damage. Second and third would be SS and Rev.

So out of the top 3 moves the only HS is dependent on the weapon. If your parse doesn't follow this, then the fast weapon/slow weapon debate doesn't really matter (ie, trash pulls or random low rage fights). Basically, you *have to* spam heroic strike to maximize Red Swords advantage (and your general dps no matter what weapon).

I agree about wws or better modelling. BP has 20 expertise at the cost of 10 hit. You can argue that the dps and str difference are inconsequential, but 20 expertise is *a lot*.

Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=37401;39344;40345)

FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).


Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.

veneretio
01-28-2009, 02:33 PM
I don't have the Redsword, i have the 1.5 tank weapon from nax. So i can't make a direct comparison.

The 1.5 speed weapon is better than Red Sword since it's the same dps and faster.

Galushi
01-28-2009, 02:38 PM
FWIW maxdps rates the slayer of the lifeless higher than red sword despite slayer having less hit, presumably because of the weapon speed (I'm assuming the dps/str differences are a wash).

I should smack you for using Maxdps's prot gear comparison. LOL

That site used to be good for very quick comparisons, but a majority of their "spreadsheets" are out of date and either modeled for preLK stuff or just lvl 70 with LK talents. Theres only a few calcs on there that let you input your level, and they havent been keeping up with recent patches (such as the hunter nerfs).

TL:DR....Maxdps is Ugh..

Muffin Man
01-28-2009, 03:30 PM
I should smack you for using Maxdps's prot gear comparison. LOL

I know :o.

That was actually the last time I went to maxdps to see their new prot gear rating feature. It wasn't up to snuff and I feel like I can evaluate gear just fine by now. But that comparison, Slayer > Red Sword always bugged me.

Seeing this threat reminded me of that comparison. Although, after I posted, I realized that the Slayer's 4 more str -> 8 Ap -> 8/14 dps. Which is much more than the 0.1 dps edge the Red Sword has.

OnourisofRavencrest
01-28-2009, 03:41 PM
Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.

http://wowwebstats.com/mujtyhvur3dd3?s=576876-605682&a=xd321dd

This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.

Daavos
01-28-2009, 05:28 PM
http://wowwebstats.com/mujtyhvur3dd3?s=576876-605682&a=xd321dd

This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.

Thank you for responing, but it keeps timing out.

Daavos
01-29-2009, 10:43 AM
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/mujtyhvur3dd3?s=576876-605682&a=xd321dd)

This may have timed out by now, but when I tried to check it put me #412 in queue and I didn't feel like waiting. I was using Red Sword of Courage the entire night.

Crap.

I was already to point out that we did the same damage, we had the approx the same number of HS and mele swings - but then I noticed the duration of your fight was 3 mins and mine was 4mins.

Your DW also roled over more damage in a shorter fight then my longer fight.

You win.

Bayho
01-29-2009, 12:31 PM
I pray BP drops and our pally tank takes it so I don't have to argue with him over Last Laugh.

Our Pally tank actually passed Last Laugh to me. Broken Promise dropped for him last night, so that made him happy. Hopefully someday soon, Last Laugh will drop again for him. Damn caster shield keeps dropping for us, though, again, and again, and again. No shield love for tanks in Naxx25, yet.

I happen to love the way Broken Promise looks and I was very interested in getting one to test things out. But, the math behind it and the testing that has been done just verifies that it is no where near as good as a faster tanking weapons with a 100% Heroic Strike uptime. I am not saying that you cannot use it or even hold threat with it, over your DPSers. But, it will not provide the same amount of damage or threat as a fast weapon with similar DPS, no where and no how. As we progress through harder content, and your DPS gets geared, you will see yourself returning to the Red Sword, if you have not been lucky enough to upgrade beyond it. Just considering the damage output, I would change back to the Red Sword and keep Broken Promise for looks, especially with the possible nerf to Deep Wounds coming.

bludwork
01-29-2009, 02:14 PM
I've use broken promise on every content there is in the game. I upgraded it from my quest blue and never felt it inferior to anything. Recently I got the 10man naxx sword with a 1.50 speed and didn't find it any better (or worse) than broken promise.

Having used both I can say that if you're the type that just spams your HS key without watching your rage you will run out of rage with a 1.5 compared to a 2.5 (without BoS)

Kathvely2
01-29-2009, 02:32 PM
Still waiting for a wws with the RedSword.

I have been trying to max dps and testing different stuff. Ill do a comparison this week. I have Last Laugh and Broken Promise. I am hit capped (kind of) and expertise capped so the comparison can be based mainly off my weapon speed and my general performance. But.. we will need to wait till next Tuesday for the Broken Promise wws logs.

Using a 15/5/51 spec (when tanking, if you look now youll see a really odd prot pvp spec)

Last Laugh (1.6)
Patchwerk - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/qol6e3sa2wpnc?s=485119-519587&a=x180c141)
2 Min 57Sec
3021 dps
0 Missed only 3 normal (white) swings
HS: 37% of damage
Deep Wounds: 11%


Broken Promise (2.5)
Patchwerk - Coming 2/3

Kojiyama
01-30-2009, 05:35 AM
The thing to remember about Deep Wounds is that you will get more procs of it when you have a faster weapon as well. Basically, since the procs/sec on your weapon hits will increase the only factor to consider is Deep Wounds from non-swings.

So... Let's take a stab at factoring this out. :)

As a Warrior tank will be using every GCD, you have 1.5 * CritRate chance of proc'ing deep wounds from instants. Additionally you will have a AttackerSpeed * CritRate chance to proc deep wounds from Damage Shield.

Fully raid-buffed I would guess an average crit rate to estimate would be something like 35% on Shield Slam/Devastate, and 20% on Damage Shield and the other instant attacks. In an average SnB rotation the ability usage will be something like 30% abilities without a bonus +15% crit rate.

Finally, we'll say the average boss attack speed is 2s.

So, in the end we get:
DeepWoundsPPS = (1 / 1.5 * .7 * .35) + (1 / 1.5 * .3 * .2) + (1 / 2 * .2)
DeepWoundsPPS = 0.163 + 0.04 + 0.1
DeepWoundsPPS = 0.303

So, the final formula for factoring the DPS increase...

Using Satrina's numbers:
Broken Promise averages 391 damage per swing
Red Sword averages 229 damage per swing
Last Laugh averages 274 damage per swing

Multipliers for a Prot Warrior are usually going to be something like 0.9 * 1.1 * 1.03 = 1.0197 (Defensive Stance + Enrage + 3% Raid Buff), with Bleed Multipliers at 0.30. Currently Deep Wounds double-dips from multipliers, so that's why it's in there twice.

Final formula for the DPS difference on instants/damage shield from Deep Wounds:
DeepWoundsDPS = (((Weapon Damage) * Multipliers) * BleedMultipliers * Multipliers) * DeepWoundsPPS
BrokenPromise = ((391 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 160.14
RedSword = ((229 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 93.79
LastLaugh = ((274 * 1.0197) * 1.3 * 1.0197) * 0.303 = 112.22

So, you gain 66.35 DPS from Deep Wounds by swapping to the Broken Promise from the Red Sword. Over a 4 minute fight that would be 15924 damage.

As the difference posted by Satrina was 23604 prior to armor, the DPS difference probably doesn't end up being huge but it's still in the favor of the Red Sword. Additionally, the bonus threat on HS is much larger of an impact compared to Deep Wounds damage so the Red Sword would do substantially more TPS.

For AoE tanking, you would probably find a skew towards the slower weapon though... as Thunder Clap and Damage Shield will have a much higher percentage of usage and only scaler in regard to weapon would be the higher Deep Wounds damage.

With my full raid-buffed stats and factoring in a total DPS cycle in my new Rawr.ProtWarr model, swapping to the Broken Promise from Red Sword results in a DPS gain of 39 and a threat loss of 149 TPS.

Horacio
01-30-2009, 12:24 PM
Red Sword WWS for Patches:
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/hhopufwm3asv1?s=190096-226165)

threat Parse from same fight:
Horacio produced 6387 tps vs Patchwerk (http://rehfeld.us/wow/tps/report/1436)

Ick, Ono is making me look bad. I'm getting a lower crit rate and my hits are smaller. It may be a buff here or there but its likely overall gear choices/quality. My HS/white swing ratio is pretty good and I'm using SW/Conc on open GCDs.

Paramount
01-31-2009, 04:51 AM
wow guys, thanks for the great replies. I've been snowed in with slow internet so I haven't had much of a chance to check this thread.

Now I feel reassured. I thought maybe I was doing something wrong...I took BP into a patch fight and couldn't break 2k dps. Hopefully I'll do better with the red sword.

Sorry for being lazy and starting a duplicate thread btw.

Zartanchi
02-03-2009, 06:58 AM
I was happy to get this until reading this thread. I have gone with the Red Sword for boss fights and glad to read here that was the right choice. Kel is being stingy with both the Ax and the Shield as is Patchwerk. Tonights a new week though. Thanks for this post.

Gadholm
02-04-2009, 09:56 AM
This should really be a closed discussion. I'm sure nearly 100% of the top warrior tanks in the world subscribe to the fast>slow theory, and its been math-proven countless times.

To those who still want to dispute it, remember that although your DW damage would be higher with BP or another slow weapon, you will not be applying as many stacks. Hitting more often with an ability like HS (with the incite +15% crit) increases your quantity of ticks with DWs, and hence contributes to higher overall damage. Not enough, I'd guess, to make Red Sword do more DW damage than Broken Promise, but it should close that gap.