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Zethar
01-26-2009, 08:48 AM
Ok so I made this post on dk.info yesterday and I'm just trying to see if I can get some answers from some different sources.

"So I've been reading up on some DW specs for DK tanking, trying to increase my threat. I was on the EJ forums and found someone that posted a spec without any "major" ability such as SS, HS, HB or FS and decided to test for myself.

I went into naxx 10 man earlier this evening on just a couple of bosses and found my sustained threat at 5k tps and peaking at 7k tps. What I find odd is the fact my overall DPS was only 1500. I'm not quite sure how this spec is sustaining such high threat with such little dps. If anyone has any information that can explain why this build is doing so much sustained threat I'd greatly appreciate it."

And if you do use SS in the build it actually hinders your TPS.

Here is the link to my armory.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gilneas&n=Sweetpuff)

Satorri
01-26-2009, 08:56 AM
I can see exactly how it works, and I'm not terribly surprised. ScS is a pretty weak gain, especially using a fast main hand (and it certainly helps that you have the highest dps one-hande in the game =D).

Unholy already relies heavily on non-weapon based threat with amped disease ticks, UB, DnD, BB, and DC for bursts. The dual wielding allows you to really make use of the synergy between the new improved Necrosis and BcB, and to drop RS without ever missing a proc (which also works with Nec+BcB). I think this spec in general will work FAR better with gear of your level, as it gets compounding bonuses from high avoidance and very strong hit/expertise. A new tank without these perks from gear would struggle with the spec, but your level of gear actually makes it a powerhouse. Definitely fun stuff there.

Thanks for sharing!

Zethar
01-26-2009, 09:07 AM
I can see exactly how it works, and I'm not terribly surprised. ScS is a pretty weak gain, especially using a fast main hand (and it certainly helps that you have the highest dps one-hande in the game =D).

Unholy already relies heavily on non-weapon based threat with amped disease ticks, UB, DnD, BB, and DC for bursts. The dual wielding allows you to really make use of the synergy between the new improved Necrosis and BcB, and to drop RS without ever missing a proc (which also works with Nec+BcB). I think this spec in general will work FAR better with gear of your level, as it gets compounding bonuses from high avoidance and very strong hit/expertise. A new tank without these perks from gear would struggle with the spec, but your level of gear actually makes it a powerhouse. Definitely fun stuff there.

Thanks for sharing!

Thank you for the fast response, I have a better understanding of it now.

OnourisofRavencrest
01-26-2009, 09:31 AM
Sorry to bother you with a newb question, but I was wondering what the proc chance was for your sigil. Mostly I'm comfused by the wording: "Your Icy Touch has a chance to increase your defense rating by 53." and the fact that you're currently at 532 def. Is the chance actually just a 100% thing or ...? I'm mostly curious because I'm attempting to level a dk tank of my own and the more I know the better I suppose.

Satorri
01-26-2009, 09:37 AM
The new sigil is a 100% application and a 30 sec duration. Essentially, unless something goes horribly wrong, there's no reason you shouldn't have 53 def rating (10.78 defense) up at all times. It only requires that you use IT once every 30 sec, and since most tanks apply it even before going in, it should never be a problem.

I noticed that Zethar is actually gearing around this, which should work fine in theory and in most situations I can think of, since having it fall off in trash will not make you uncrittable, it would only be a problem on bosses and to make it fall off you'd have to forget to IT (=O).

Zethar
01-26-2009, 09:49 AM
The new sigil is a 100% application and a 30 sec duration. Essentially, unless something goes horribly wrong, there's no reason you shouldn't have 53 def rating (10.78 defense) up at all times. It only requires that you use IT once every 30 sec, and since most tanks apply it even before going in, it should never be a problem.

I noticed that Zethar is actually gearing around this, which should work fine in theory and in most situations I can think of, since having it fall off in trash will not make you uncrittable, it would only be a problem on bosses and to make it fall off you'd have to forget to IT (=O).

You would be correct, I'm basically using Grim Toll for the hit instead of a pure defense trinket. With the current spec I'm using the only sigil that would help would be Sigil of Haunted Dreams. But I think I would see less tps if I swapped the two.

Urrick
01-26-2009, 09:58 AM
Very interesting. Good post!

Ray
01-26-2009, 12:27 PM
What does your rotation look like on a boss fight and also on AoE packs? I finally picked up a second good tank weapon and thinking about going this way. Also, does weapon speed matter with this build?

Thanks

Zethar
01-26-2009, 12:45 PM
What does your rotation look like on a boss fight and also on AoE packs? I finally picked up a second good tank weapon and thinking about going this way. Also, does weapon speed matter with this build?

Thanks

Ok well it's pretty simple to be honest...

I start out on a boss by dropping DnD-IT-PS-BS by this time you should have runic power to use UB. Keep UB up the full duration of the fight and I normally just double up on the runes IT-IT-PS-PS-BS-BS until DnD is up again.

On AoE I simply Drop the DnD-IT-PS-Pest-UB-Blood Tap-BB-BB

Weapon speed doesn't really matter. You're not doing a whole lot of white damage.

I'm currently doing some testing on replacing all my Blood Strikes even on single target with Blood Boil for the pure shadow damage.

Ray
01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
Thanks for the response!

DW Unholy Tank (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEZhxZfxoItcor0sMsoht)

This is what I came up with using the rotation you listed to help increase the DPS of it. I dont really feel imp AMS is all that good for the 5 points it takes due to the fact that there is very little in the game that can kill me (other than Sarth 3D, and I wouldnt use this spec to tank that anyways). Im unsure of Butchery, if its really worth it. But due to the fact that we will be RS spaming, we would most likely be RP starved and threrefore make it very hard to keep UB up. I have pretty much the exact same gear as you other than the trinket. I do have the trinket from H VH which would make a good sub. the weapons I have is are Red Courage and Lifeless slayer (Naxx 10 sword). Lastly, I really dont like the bang for the buck with Impurity. Its such a lack luster gain.

Lastly, what glyphes are you using?

My thinking is for the following:

RS glyph
BS glyph
DnD

Other good options are the PS glyph, Icy Touch glyph, or the BS glyph.

Thoughts?

Zethar
01-26-2009, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the response!

DW Unholy Tank (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEZhxZfxoItcor0sMsoht)

This is what I came up with using the rotation you listed to help increase the DPS of it. I dont really feel imp AMS is all that good for the 5 points it takes due to the fact that there is very little in the game that can kill me (other than Sarth 3D, and I wouldnt use this spec to tank that anyways). Im unsure of Butchery, if its really worth it. But due to the fact that we will be RS spaming, we would most likely be RP starved and threrefore make it very hard to keep UB up. I have pretty much the exact same gear as you other than the trinket. I do have the trinket from H VH which would make a good sub. the weapons I have is are Red Courage and Lifeless slayer (Naxx 10 sword). Lastly, I really dont like the bang for the buck with Impurity. Its such a lack luster gain.

Lastly, what glyphes are you using?

My thinking is for the following:

RS glyph
BS glyph
DnD

Other good options are the PS glyph, Icy Touch glyph, or the BS glyph.

Thoughts?

Well first I did try a variance of the build with Butchery and it did work well IIRC. I honestly don't find it that hard to keep UB up and still spam RS since I have it macro'd to each of the 3 abilities...IT-PS-BS. The way I see it with Impurity so much of the build really relies on the diseases so the more I can get out of them the better. As for the Glyphs, I use Glyph of Icy Touch just for the shear runic power I get off of it. I also use Glyph of Rune Strike since we do spam it a lot the extra crit isn't going to hurt for some added threat. And lastly I've been trying between Death and Decay or Plague Strike. I have yet to test Plague Strike but DnD has worked well so far.

Satorri
01-26-2009, 05:05 PM
I've been turning the spec/mindset over and over myself, and there are a few little adaptations I'd try as well.

First though, for Ray. Impurity is actually a solid buff to all of your spells, and this spec relies on spell damage over weapon damage (though melee and RS will still be probably 2 of your top 4 damage dealers). Magic Suppression is also a big deal because in addition to bringing you up to 20% passive magic damage reduction, having AMS as a 5 sec magic immunity (complete immunity mind you) is a lot more than just an incremental gain, ESPECIALLY for things like Sarth 3D. You can ignore his breath for a shot, let me say that again, IGNORE his breath once every 45 sec.

In fact, what I've been mulling over is that there are too many good ways to buff this spec and I can't grab them all. I'm going to walk through my thought process on this, since I like this spec a lot and I may moonlight with it down the road if I can find a weapon I like to do it with (I have Hailstorm, but my other is the slow dps one-hand off Thadd on 10, fun to play with, but I want top of the line).

Basic Principles:
1.) Weapon Swing count is key.
Necrosis doesn't care how fast your weapon, the more straight white dps you do the more this will increase. BcB has a straight % on auto-attack swings. More auto-attack swings means more procs. The damage it deals is bigger per hit the harder your weapon hits, but we'd need to do some fast math to see if this is better or worse with a fast weapon or a slow (more below). Every BcB swing gets the benefit of Necrosis, diseases must be up to maximize this. Nerves of Cold Steel eases the hit requirement to get the most swings you can while also buffing your off-hand damage (normally is reduced 50%) which in turn improves Necrosis buffing.

==================================================
***Quick Check: Slow vs Fast main-hand on BcB***
Let's compare Last Laugh with the best slow main-hand tanking weapon, Broken Promise (which also happens to match the best slow weapon dps available in the game to DKs, damn fist weapons).

We'll discount stats for now, only weapon damage, assuming the gear will be the same for either (same AP to increase damage the same).
Last Laugh = 192 - 357, 1.6 speed
Broken Promise = 274 - 509, 2.5 speed

BcB = 30% chance for, 62.5% weapon damage with 3 diseases

LL = 37.5 swings per minute
= 11.25 procs at 142 dmg per proc + 28 Nec = 1918 dmg per min
BP = 24 swings per minute
= 7.2 procs at 245 dmg per proc + 49 Nec = 2114 dmg per min

The slow main hand appears to do slightly more BcB damage over time even having a distinctly lower dps and slower speed for fewer procs. It will also do more RS and PS damage, and may make BS more competitive with BB for Blood Runes.
================================================== =

2.) Relying on spells not weapon based-moves.
Without ScS which with such a fast main-hand may hit softer than IT + PS, we need to consider the options in rotation. Oblit or DS will suffer the same problem as ScS, if that could be a stronger use of 2 runes, ScS would be the best, and 2x 1-rune moves will get you more RP in rotation (1-rune = 10 RP, 2-rune = 15 RP). That leaves us with 2 weapon based moves to consider, BS and PS. You can't escape PS, you need the disease up, period. BS will be measured against BB (and you'll have to do this for yourself depending on your weapons).

==================================================
***Quick Check: ScS damage value on 2 runes.***
ScS = (60% weapon damage) + (190.5) + (95.25/disease) (shadow dmg)
IT = (227-245) + (0.125*AP) (frost damage) (*with Impurity, maybe dated coefficient, but approximate)
PS = (30% weapon damage) + (113.4) (physical damage)

Not accounting for glyphs or set bonuses, using Zeth's gear and weapon, and assuming 3 diseases up, unbuffed:
ScS = (604-770) + (190.5) + (285.75) = avg 1163 shadow
>> bonused by Ebon Plague >>>>>> = avg 1314 dmg + 15 RP
IT = (227-245) + (355) = avg 591 frost >> EP >> = avg 668 + 10 RP
PS = (302-335) + (113.4) = 432 pgysical + 10 RP

You can expect PS to drop off a bit, but ScS seems to give only a marginal increase in total damage but the pair of smaller hits gives you more RP. In addition use of something like glyph of IT will REALLY supe that up, making two moves worth 30 RP, and with Dirge that pushes the total to 35, more than double that of ScS.
==================================================

3.) Boosting fundamentals and stacking dots (standard unholy) for max hate.
Stacking DnD, UB, and 3 diseases create a major baseline for threat on unlimited targets in range. Using PS, IT, and BB/BS for standard CDs means anything you can do to buff these will buff threat a great deal, as will things that bank on them being used frequently.


I've toyed around with the spec, and messed with some glyphs. I've made some value decisions based on my thinking outlined above. Ravenous Dead in my own gear is worth about 50 AP and 7 parry rating unbuffed, not overwhelming and I don't think it'll be horribly missed. Corpse Explosion is now silly good aoe hurt and a wonderful replacement for DC if you're fighting 2 or more mobs, and it's one point, too tastey. I also don't like taking less than a full stack of Desecration since that translates into certainty of application. If I have it, I want to know it's going down when I tell it to. I opted for full stacks on Anticipation and short-changed Magic Suppression 1 pt, but those could go either way, I do have strong dodge already.

Here's what I have so far. (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000000050030000 000000000000000000235200035103104240050003103051&glyph=091214000000)

I'd like to see if I can steal Imp IT for both the de-hasting (when I'm not with my prot warrior friend) and for the damage buff to IT which I will use constantly. 30% is HUGE, especially because of the constant use. But here's my bind, I don't want to lose Morbidity for the DnD uptime and DC buff (on single targets), Vicious Strikes with the t7 DK tank bonuses makes your PS spam even sweeter. As I think about it, with the constant use of PS and IT, epidemic is the logical thing to prune, making the new spec:

Unholy DW + glyphs (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000002050030000 000000000000000000235000035103104240050003103051&glyph=091214010502)

It makes use of the IT and PS glyphs for more damage and RP (this build will be RP heavy so you need to make smart use of CDs especially using 1 glyph at a time for 2/3rds of your rune sets), and DnD to buff that. DnD can be kept down on every 3rd rune set, this spec would use a tri-phasic push though not terribly varied:
DnD > IT > PS > Pest/BB/BS //
PS > IT > BB/BS > BB/BS > PS > IT //
Pest/BB/BS > PS > IT > BB/BS > PS > IT

Desecration will actually be hot with this since you should be able to place it anywhere and everywhere you'll move. UB should go up early and be refreshed smartly to keep it up but not respend the cost more than needed. 1 target, use DC whenever it fits and your RP is over 65, and with 2 or more targets use CE so long as there is a corpse to blow and the same criteria are met. This should also be worth roughly 60//90//90 RP worth plenty of RS, DC, CE, and UB renews.

Very fun ideas, though I'm going to need to get my hands on a few things to really make it work with my gear. I'll probably play around with this eventually. =)

Zethar
01-26-2009, 06:03 PM
Wow Satorri I'm extremely impressed with what you put together here, Thinking about the imp IT talents...30 percent more on top of that along with 20 percent more on PS with a glyph would be a pretty huge increase now that I think about it. It's just so hard fitting those 3 points in. Now your glyphing idea is great IT-PS-DND so I do plan on doing that. Hopefully some others can join in on this and see what can be brought up.

What if you took just 1 point out of Bladed Armor and put it into imp IT.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0054000000000000000000000003050030000 000000000000000000235000035103105240040003103051&glyph=121409010204

Except you prefer full Desecration instead of full Impurity

CyA
01-26-2009, 09:57 PM
the new enchant for 2hand is awesome(25 Defense(not rating)) making you wanna go for 2hand

also m8 your using fast dualwield so you wanna get yourself killed quick?

you do alot of Parries at the cost of doing better aggro

imagine patchwerk where you did 3 parries in a row and if that happens you probably be dead in no time

Zethar
01-27-2009, 02:42 AM
the new enchant for 2hand is awesome(25 Defense(not rating)) making you wanna go for 2hand

Why? I don't need 25 more pure defense I have 543.


also m8 your using fast dualwield so you wanna get yourself killed quick?

Hasn't happened yet. IIRC Parry hastening is implemented into fights to make it more challenging healing a tank as well as increasing a bosses parry.


you do alot of Parries at the cost of doing better aggro imagine patchwerk where you did 3 parries in a row and if that happens you probably be dead in no time

The only melee attacks I'm using are pretty much auto attack. And as for Patchwerk my healers need something to do, he's also one of the bosses without parry haste.

Sarthuk
01-27-2009, 04:00 AM
I've been turning the spec/mindset over and over myself, and there are a few little adaptations I'd try as well.

First though, for Ray. Impurity is actually a solid buff to all of your spells, and this spec relies on spell damage over weapon damage (though melee and RS will still be probably 2 of your top 4 damage dealers). Magic Suppression is also a big deal because in addition to bringing you up to 20% passive magic damage reduction, having AMS as a 5 sec magic immunity (complete immunity mind you) is a lot more than just an incremental gain, ESPECIALLY for things like Sarth 3D. You can ignore his breath for a shot, let me say that again, IGNORE his breath once every 45 sec.

In fact, what I've been mulling over is that there are too many good ways to buff this spec and I can't grab them all. I'm going to walk through my thought process on this, since I like this spec a lot and I may moonlight with it down the road if I can find a weapon I like to do it with (I have Hailstorm, but my other is the slow dps one-hand off Thadd on 10, fun to play with, but I want top of the line).

Basic Principles:
1.) Weapon Swing count is key.
Necrosis doesn't care how fast your weapon, the more straight white dps you do the more this will increase. BcB has a straight % on auto-attack swings. More auto-attack swings means more procs. The damage it deals is bigger per hit the harder your weapon hits, but we'd need to do some fast math to see if this is better or worse with a fast weapon or a slow (more below). Every BcB swing gets the benefit of Necrosis, diseases must be up to maximize this. Nerves of Cold Steel eases the hit requirement to get the most swings you can while also buffing your off-hand damage (normally is reduced 50%) which in turn improves Necrosis buffing.

==================================================
***Quick Check: Slow vs Fast main-hand on BcB***
Let's compare Last Laugh with the best slow main-hand tanking weapon, Broken Promise (which also happens to match the best slow weapon dps available in the game to DKs, damn fist weapons).

We'll discount stats for now, only weapon damage, assuming the gear will be the same for either (same AP to increase damage the same).
Last Laugh = 192 - 357, 1.6 speed
Broken Promise = 274 - 509, 2.5 speed

BcB = 30% chance for, 62.5% weapon damage with 3 diseases

LL = 37.5 swings per minute
= 11.25 procs at 142 dmg per proc + 28 Nec = 1918 dmg per min
BP = 24 swings per minute
= 7.2 procs at 245 dmg per proc + 49 Nec = 2114 dmg per min

The slow main hand appears to do slightly more BcB damage over time even having a distinctly lower dps and slower speed for fewer procs. It will also do more RS and PS damage, and may make BS more competitive with BB for Blood Runes.
================================================== =

2.) Relying on spells not weapon based-moves.
Without ScS which with such a fast main-hand may hit softer than IT + PS, we need to consider the options in rotation. Oblit or DS will suffer the same problem as ScS, if that could be a stronger use of 2 runes, ScS would be the best, and 2x 1-rune moves will get you more RP in rotation (1-rune = 10 RP, 2-rune = 15 RP). That leaves us with 2 weapon based moves to consider, BS and PS. You can't escape PS, you need the disease up, period. BS will be measured against BB (and you'll have to do this for yourself depending on your weapons).

==================================================
***Quick Check: ScS damage value on 2 runes.***
ScS = (60% weapon damage) + (190.5) + (95.25/disease) (shadow dmg)
IT = (227-245) + (0.125*AP) (frost damage) (*with Impurity, maybe dated coefficient, but approximate)
PS = (30% weapon damage) + (113.4) (physical damage)

Not accounting for glyphs or set bonuses, using Zeth's gear and weapon, and assuming 3 diseases up, unbuffed:
ScS = (604-770) + (190.5) + (285.75) = avg 1163 shadow
>> bonused by Ebon Plague >>>>>> = avg 1314 dmg + 15 RP
IT = (227-245) + (355) = avg 591 frost >> EP >> = avg 668 + 10 RP
PS = (302-335) + (113.4) = 432 pgysical + 10 RP

You can expect PS to drop off a bit, but ScS seems to give only a marginal increase in total damage but the pair of smaller hits gives you more RP. In addition use of something like glyph of IT will REALLY supe that up, making two moves worth 30 RP, and with Dirge that pushes the total to 35, more than double that of ScS.
==================================================

3.) Boosting fundamentals and stacking dots (standard unholy) for max hate.
Stacking DnD, UB, and 3 diseases create a major baseline for threat on unlimited targets in range. Using PS, IT, and BB/BS for standard CDs means anything you can do to buff these will buff threat a great deal, as will things that bank on them being used frequently.


I've toyed around with the spec, and messed with some glyphs. I've made some value decisions based on my thinking outlined above. Ravenous Dead in my own gear is worth about 50 AP and 7 parry rating unbuffed, not overwhelming and I don't think it'll be horribly missed. Corpse Explosion is now silly good aoe hurt and a wonderful replacement for DC if you're fighting 2 or more mobs, and it's one point, too tastey. I also don't like taking less than a full stack of Desecration since that translates into certainty of application. If I have it, I want to know it's going down when I tell it to. I opted for full stacks on Anticipation and short-changed Magic Suppression 1 pt, but those could go either way, I do have strong dodge already.

Here's what I have so far. (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000000050030000 000000000000000000235200035103104240050003103051&glyph=091214000000)

I'd like to see if I can steal Imp IT for both the de-hasting (when I'm not with my prot warrior friend) and for the damage buff to IT which I will use constantly. 30% is HUGE, especially because of the constant use. But here's my bind, I don't want to lose Morbidity for the DnD uptime and DC buff (on single targets), Vicious Strikes with the t7 DK tank bonuses makes your PS spam even sweeter. As I think about it, with the constant use of PS and IT, epidemic is the logical thing to prune, making the new spec:

Unholy DW + glyphs (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000002050030000 000000000000000000235000035103104240050003103051&glyph=091214010502)

It makes use of the IT and PS glyphs for more damage and RP (this build will be RP heavy so you need to make smart use of CDs especially using 1 glyph at a time for 2/3rds of your rune sets), and DnD to buff that. DnD can be kept down on every 3rd rune set, this spec would use a tri-phasic push though not terribly varied:
DnD > IT > PS > Pest/BB/BS //
PS > IT > BB/BS > BB/BS > PS > IT //
Pest/BB/BS > PS > IT > BB/BS > PS > IT

Desecration will actually be hot with this since you should be able to place it anywhere and everywhere you'll move. UB should go up early and be refreshed smartly to keep it up but not respend the cost more than needed. 1 target, use DC whenever it fits and your RP is over 65, and with 2 or more targets use CE so long as there is a corpse to blow and the same criteria are met. This should also be worth roughly 60//90//90 RP worth plenty of RS, DC, CE, and UB renews.

Very fun ideas, though I'm going to need to get my hands on a few things to really make it work with my gear. I'll probably play around with this eventually. =)


Sattori, you're just sooo sick, but in a good way <3

Zethar
01-27-2009, 05:51 AM
I changed somethings going off what Satorri did in the builds he posted and banged out another 300-400tps in the build.

Here's the build I'll be testing this week for numbers. I'll upload some WWS and do a TPS Parse when each raid is over this week.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0054000000000000000000000003050030000 000000000000000000235000035103105240040003103051&glyph=121409010502

GravityDK
01-27-2009, 06:09 AM
I start out on a boss by dropping DnD-IT-PS-BS by this time you should have runic power to use UB. Keep UB up the full duration of the fight and I normally just double up on the runes IT-IT-PS-PS-BS-BS until DnD is up again.


When Zethar first posted his OP on dk.info, what caught my attention is the discrepancy between his DPS and TPS.

It cannot be explained easily, I presume the TPS 10-second window in Omen was giving him misleading data.

However, maybe it's just the reliable reapplication of DnD that's generating so much threat -vs- dps.

So Impurity + Glyph of DnD + boosting attack power seem to be crucial to this working.

A WWS would be very helpful. I'm interested to check the dps/tps figures via the newly functioning tps parser.

Zethar
01-27-2009, 06:13 AM
Yeah, I can't wait to start the raid week to parse it out and see why it's sustaining so high. I mean the numbers I see are very small...100-400dmg but very fast. I tested the new spec in a 5 man yesterday although we can't really just go on 5 mans. But my dps was at 2.2k by the end of the run. So it maybe when I originally posted my meter was scewed.

Ray
01-27-2009, 07:12 AM
To Gravaity:

The whole point of the new runeforge was to make up for the fact there are no 2H tank weapons. So if your just going to DW tank weapons, its essentially the same thing. And on Parry haste? come on, thats has been a dead concern since WotLK. if your tanks die to parry haste then your healers fail.

To satorri:

I know all about imp AMS and for most builds impurity is crap but I can see the value in it here. Also, with the fact that you are "spamming" PS you can pretty gaurantee 90% up time on descration with just 3 points in it.

In general:

I to have been going through this over night and what I came up with is to essentially do the same thing as the DW DPS build without HB. I actually think taking reaping, along with imp IT + glyphed will be sick. So the rotation would look like this.

IT > PS > IT > PS (just for flavor) > BS/BB > BS/BB > rune dump
IT > PS > IT > PS > IT > IT > RP dump

This coupled with the new IT sigil (not the defense one) will result in massive RP (more than dirge would give so we can drop that) and making almost all of our runes non weapon based. All thats really left to figure out is if BS or BB are better. I would imagine BS will scale up better with weapon dam and out pace BB at high weapon item LVLs.

On glyphs:

I cant give up BS glyph. To me as an unholy tank, its a mandory glyph. So my glyphs would be:

BS
IT
DnD

So here is what I came up with, keep in mind I am the DK responcible for UA (another must have in a raid if you have an unholy DK)

DW Unholy Tank Build (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000003050200000 000000000000000000235002035103105003030203103051&glyph=091204060504)

Last note, if I dont have the points to fill out AMZ, i really dont like taking points in AMS. The only fight were I have considered really needing a full absorb was sarth 3D and I really dont think I would use this spec for that. (On a side note there, I found a blood spec to work well for Sarth 3D this week as our guild is working on it)

Im interested to hear of stories from raiding as my raid week doesnt start till thrusday.

Oh, what runeforges were you using?

Satorri
01-27-2009, 07:33 AM
To Cya and Ray, parry haste is significantly less of an issue that you might think, once you have quality tanking gear together with a healthy helping of expertise. People are using this, you think they'd notice if they were suffering from a horrible increase in damage from parry haste? Or maybe people just think it's a big cover-up?

Also, this is NOT a spec for new tanks, or tanks who are dual wielding just to get two tanking weapons going (which is no longer necessary at all).



Ray, you have me curious now, you like glyph of BS, what snare are you using to get the damage bonus?

Ray
01-27-2009, 07:41 AM
Ray, you have me curious now, you like glyph of BS, what snare are you using to get the damage bonus?

BS = bone shield not blood strike sorry. but the blood strike glyph should work with a mage in the group either from slow or FFB or a feral druid with infected wounds or hell, even descration.

But, anyways, bone shield glyph is a very good mitigation tool. I mean, at our lvl of gear maybe its not needed. the question I guess is would it be more worth it to have the PS or BloodS glyph. If I can get to 5K TPS with the BoneS glyph, id prolly just stick with that as its nice to have for Heros and 10 mans

Zethar
01-27-2009, 07:42 AM
All thats really left to figure out is if BS or BB are better. I would imagine BS will scale up better with weapon dam and out pace BB at high weapon item LVLs.

As it stands right now if you're MH is Last Laugh then BB is more effective than BS. Now if you were main handing Broken Promise I suspect BS would be better to use. But you are correct when weapons scale on new gear BS will take BB in the rotation I'm sure.

Satorri
01-27-2009, 07:56 AM
Oh, yeah, I'm definitely with you on Bone Shield, 2 more charges is very nice, and a great buff, though with a high level of gear I'd be a little less concerned with this, but I'd probably drop PS for it. 20% increase on that damage is a shade less than DnD if you're using it constantly and the RP from IT is huge.

I would expect for BS vs BB, Broken Promises which could be very hot for this spec as well, BS would win out on single targets.

Oh, and for this build, Impurity is worth around 100 dmg on each IT, roughly speaking, and about 40 dmg per tick per target on DnD. My coefficients are old, and so probably a bit off, but those are pretty serious increases when you add them up. The talent is not some misguided idea by Blizz, it is deliberately balanced to give a proportional increase on every spell damage ability (diseases and most everything else that doesn't have 'strike' in the name).

Liquidwulfe
01-27-2009, 11:09 AM
I have been Unholy Dual wield (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZhxZsghhxcoxcoMfout) for a while now, and have experienced nothing but success with a similar build to the one Satorri posted.

My tankpoints addon places me at ~88.6% Total Damage Reduction (before Icy Touch and Bone Shield), with Omen showing 4.5k+ TPS (I am aware of the problem with Omen, but noone ever comes close to me in threat, ever).

One thing I will say, is that I do believe Nerves of Cold Steel is a waste of talent points, namely because it does not increase your damage done by spells (your primary source of threat). Maximising your TPS comes from stacking +hit, both increasing your white damage and your spell damage.

Ray
01-27-2009, 11:22 AM
I have been Unholy Dual wield (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZhxZsghhxcoxcoMfout) for a while now, and have experienced nothing but success with a similar build to the one Satorri posted.

My tankpoints addon places me at ~88.6% Total Damage Reduction (before Icy Touch and Bone Shield), with Omen showing 4.5k+ TPS (I am aware of the problem with Omen, but noone ever comes close to me in threat, ever).

One thing I will say, is that I do believe Nerves of Cold Steel is a waste of talent points, namely because it does not increase your damage done by spells (your primary source of threat). Maximising your TPS comes from stacking +hit, both increasing your white damage and your spell damage.

Im surprised you can make that work. Looking over your gear it shows very little expertise and low hit. Do you have issues with survivablity? Have you tanked 25 mans like that?

Also, what do you guys think about using Reaping to be able to IT more?

Liquidwulfe
01-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Im surprised you can make that work. Looking over your gear it shows very little expertise and low hit. Do you have issues with survivablity? Have you tanked 25 mans like that?

I have had zero problems tanking 25 man content, both in survivability and in threat. As far as expertise goes, it IS a work in progress, however both the helm from Gothek and the boots have not dropped for me yet.

As far as survivability goes, I took a grand total of 500k damage while offtanking hatefull strikes from Patchwork 25.

Remeber, the majority of our damage as unholy is spell damage. I am fortunate enough to plan around a druid, shadowpriest, and an Ele shammy, so I always have +6% hit (+3% from raidbuffs, 3% from talents). While that is not capped, I do not have any threat issues (Even against a 4k+ Ret warrior).

GravityDK
01-27-2009, 02:02 PM
To Gravaity:
The whole point of the new runeforge was to make up for the fact there are no 2H tank weapons. So if your just going to DW tank weapons, its essentially the same thing. And on Parry haste? come on, thats has been a dead concern since WotLK. if your tanks die to parry haste then your healers fail.


I have no idea who you were referring to, but I didn't talk about anything like that ;)

My interest was in the TPS -vs- DPS disrepancy, but perhaps Zethar's meters were acting up he's suggesting, so I await further info to clarify.

Ray
01-27-2009, 02:04 PM
What is the rotation you are using liquid? cuz I noticed SS in your spec which doesnt seem to fit with a DW spec. as being discussed here.

Liquidwulfe
01-27-2009, 02:38 PM
What is the rotation you are using liquid? cuz I noticed SS in your spec which doesnt seem to fit with a DW spec. as being discussed here.
The thing about scourgestrike is the majority of its damage is pure disease and modifier based. Please see the following two screenshots:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Phoenix405/WoWScrnShot_012709_162746.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j106/Phoenix405/WoWScrnShot_012709_162929.jpg

As you can see, the difference from going from a 2h Titansteel Destroyer to two Slayer of the Lifeless is about 300 damage. My white damage more than makes up for this.

It should be noted that this recount capture was JUST me using SS. I did not try and go full out on the dummy. Plus, this was done in Frost Presence.

For my Blood Strikes, there was about a 200 damage difference.

My single target rotation is usually IT>PS>SS>BS>BS>UB
then SS>SS>SS

Rinse wash repeat.

EDIT: I thought I should clarify, this is with ZERO buffs running, not even Horn of Winter.

Zethar
01-27-2009, 04:27 PM
One thing I will say, is that I do believe Nerves of Cold Steel is a waste of talent points, namely because it does not increase your damage done by spells (your primary source of threat). Maximising your TPS comes from stacking +hit, both increasing your white damage and your spell damage.

Yes but it is 3 percent more hit, that's 3 percent more of a chance for Necrosis.

Liquidwulfe
01-27-2009, 04:55 PM
Yes but it is 3 percent more hit, that's 3 percent more of a chance for Necrosis.
White damage and necrosis combined is about 30% of your damage. Adding 3% to this is about a 1% damage increase. I think this is not worth 3 talent points.

Zethar
01-27-2009, 06:46 PM
Well I had hoped to get some solid numbers tonight but with the massive instance lag it's not going to be accurate.

Satorri
01-28-2009, 07:32 AM
I think I've figured out a big part of this build's powerful threat. It's something I'd forgotten to account for in the wash some time ago: RP gains.

Every 1 RP you gain is worth 5 threat (on the 1 dmg = 1 threat equivalency, which is 1 dmg =~2.1 threat in Frost Presence). With Dirge, glyph of IT, and the use of all single rune abilities you're gaining appreciable amounts of RP on top of your severe white/necrosis damage, plus all the specials. I suspect this is more padding than one might think.

Also, have I mentioned lately that CE is a great tool? I had it crit last night for 3200 dmg on a 3 group pull in the arachnid quarter. My overall dps last night ended up at 2200, that's a personal best by far while strictly tanking.

Zethar
01-28-2009, 09:34 AM
I think I've figured out a big part of this build's powerful threat. It's something I'd forgotten to account for in the wash some time ago: RP gains.

Every 1 RP you gain is worth 5 threat (on the 1 dmg = 1 threat equivalency, which is 1 dmg =~2.1 threat in Frost Presence). With Dirge, glyph of IT, and the use of all single rune abilities you're gaining appreciable amounts of RP on top of your severe white/necrosis damage, plus all the specials. I suspect this is more padding than one might think.

Also, have I mentioned lately that CE is a great tool? I had it crit last night for 3200 dmg on a 3 group pull in the arachnid quarter. My overall dps last night ended up at 2200, that's a personal best by far while strictly tanking.

I was just thinking of the same thing Satorri, the RP gains. Were you using this spec last night in your Naxx run to do the 2.2k?

Lolepops
01-29-2009, 06:11 AM
I would first of all like to thank everyone here that has been working on this. I have been recently elected Class Leader for Death Knights for my guild. As such, I am wanting (and have even before now) to try out a Dual Wield Tanking build. After reading this thread, I have gotten some good info and learn a couple of things from here and DK Info. My main question is, what would be good weapons to start with for someone that isn't into 10 mans yet. Doing lots of heroics and working on rep stuff. My guild is kinda small, but we are working towards starting Naxx, Vault and such soon.

Here is a link to my build idea I had (altered what has been posted here to my tastes) DW Unholy Tanking (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEZhxZfx0ItcoT0V0cout)

Here is also a link to my Armory in case you have any other suggestions also: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tanaris&n=Amakuni)

Thank you for any help and thank you again for this wonderful site.

Zethar
01-29-2009, 06:56 AM
I'm not trying to be elitist but I'm not exactly sure how this build would work for someone in gear less than say 10man naxx...but if you're looking for some starting weapons and want to give it a shot here's a couple for you.

Gothik - (N) Naxxramas
Slayer of the Lifeless - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39344)

King Ymiron - (H) Utgarde Pinnacle
Red Sword of Courage - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37401)

Prince Keleseth - (H) Utgarde Keep
Infantry Assault Blade - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37179)

Varos Cloudstrider - (H) The Oculus
Cloudstrider's Waraxe - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37260)

Volkhan - (N) Halls of Lightning
Eternally Folded Blade - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=36984)

Have fun, and if you enjoy it feel free to post your results.

Lolepops
01-29-2009, 08:05 AM
Thank you Zethar. I understand it might not be optimal for a Dk not in 10 mans. going to try to get into some pugs for 10 mans or with a friends guild. either way, I am still wanting to try. I just couldnt feel right telling another person that asked me about DW tanking that it might not work or will work unless I have tried it myself. But still, thank you. Being a smith, would the Titansteel Bonecrusher be a good starting main hand to get crafted? and get the Red Sword for off-hand?

Satorri
01-29-2009, 03:18 PM
Well, Lol, I would second Zethar, but I'll tell you why.

This build is clever, but it has a major vulnerability if you try to make it work with lower level gear: parry haste.

Once you have a respectable set of tanking gear where you're sporting at least 20+ expertise on the sheet, and better than 40% combined dodge/parry (also assuming you have Blade Barrier), this parry haste becomes a small issue. With lesser gear though, using this build you'll have a very high number of parriable attacks (BcB strikes are parriable), especially if you use 2 fast tanking weapons (and I would recommend using tanking weapons with lower level tank gear anyway).

If you're just starting off gearing as a DK tank, I'd recommend one of two tacts:
1.) get whatever tank gear you can, and any 2-hander with Str/Stam (there's a great sword from non-hero Culling of Strat) and use the new Rune of Stone Gargoyle to hit the cap if you're having trouble.
2.) take 2 tanking weapons, but use a slow main-hand (and off if you're so inclined). There is a great one from heroic UK, the Infantry Blade, off the first boss. The only better slow tanking weapon is out of heroic Naxx (4-horsies). There is also a slow one from early quests in Zul'drak.

This build is about the best way to prove the nay-sayers right on the vulnerabilities of parry haste, if you don't have the higher level gear to support it. =)

Lolepops
01-29-2009, 10:49 PM
Thank you to everyone. I am going to try it after I get some weapons to go with it. My guild doesn't mind me just randomly trying things. I double checked my armory (in the field so can't check my character on WoW right now), and am setting at 39.65 (before blade barrier and putting the parry rune on weapons) for total avoidance, over 540 defense, and 19 expertise (without human bonus expertise for swords or maces). good luck and will let everyone know my results.

Amakuni

Ray
01-30-2009, 08:27 AM
*sigh*

So I ran with this spec last night in Naxx, but the officer who runs WWS wasnt there and I think the others forgot to record, so..... no WWS from my first try.

Things I noticed in a raid environment:

1. RP dumping is impossible with the build. Essentially, I couldnt burn my runes fast enough to get to the point where I could DC. I barely had room to renew UB. With BoSanc + IT glyph, I sat at 100 RP essentially the entire fight. I also did not have dirge in my spec.

2. BB > BS This is something we already kinda knew, but I can confirm BB is way better (even if you have blood strike glyphed which I did)

3. Using the rotation of PS PS IT IT BB BB UB PS PS IT IT IT IT/PS (depending on if i needed to reproc descration) end.

My damage break down was essentially:

Melee (white hit)
IT
RS

Those were the top 3 on my recount. I was surprised to see white dam on top. but I think this was a function of not have BB macroed with RS (I generally didnt do this using a 2H) same thing for pest.

4. I generally think that using SS will result in a higher TPS just for the fact that I will be able to dump DC which were hitting very hard with this spec. the few I did get off were critting for arround 4.5K so getting them into the rotation should be a higher proirity.

5. I used FC/SS as my runeforges

6. When I got a chance to glance at Omen (focused on rotation) I had plenty of breathing room. I would say my average TPS was about 4.5K which isnt really much different than normal really, but I would say that I have room to improve...

7. Heres to hoping BP drops this week!!

Zethar
01-30-2009, 10:17 AM
I had Silent Crusader - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40407) drop last night I replaced it from Hailstorm in the OH, and Last Laugh in the Mh...So now I'm running Silent Crusader and Last Laugh MH/OH and found a huge difference in blood strike comparing to blood boil. And it also seemed threat went up again. I think once you get that heavier hitting MH BS>BB.

Ray
01-30-2009, 10:36 AM
are you able to dump any RP Zethar? Cuz I was just getting UB up and couldnt really find a spot for DC.

My thought is that with a slow MH, SS will be a viable ability again. For the same reason BS over takes BB. Did you feel as though you were getting less RS dam or more? that is my only concern with using a slower MH as it would reduce the RS I am able to do.

Zethar
01-30-2009, 10:43 AM
are you able to dump any RP Zethar? Cuz I was just getting UB up and couldnt really find a spot for DC.

My thought is that with a slow MH, SS will be a viable ability again. For the same reason BS over takes BB. Did you feel as though you were getting less RS dam or more? that is my only concern with using a slower MH as it would reduce the RS I am able to do.

I was able to dump just fine last night, trash I was using Corpse Explosion for a dump. As for single target since my Rune Strike is bound to all my abilities I use a keybind to spam Death Coil during my rotation.

As for the slower MH Rune Strike damage goes up thus more threat from the top end damage.

Edit: Dirge helps a lot, since this build is so dependent on RP

Ray
01-30-2009, 10:47 AM
I was able to dump just fine last night, trash I was using Corpse Explosion for a dump. As for single target since my Rune Strike is bound to all my abilities I use a keybind to spam Death Coil during my rotation.

As for the slower MH Rune Strike damage goes up thus more threat from the top end damage.

I know RS dam goes up with a slow MH, but you RS less, so I was just wondering if you saw a lowering in dam.

I do need to rework all my skills to include RS, but even still, when did you find room in the rotation to use DC? with all single rune abilities, that doesnt give much room for it.

Zethar
01-30-2009, 11:28 AM
Well I'm also using DnD every other rotation that gives quite a bit of RP, and with BoSanc at times I just couldn't get rid of it.

Satorri
01-31-2009, 06:42 AM
Depending on your gear you may or may not RS less with a slow MH vs a fast MH, though it surely will hit harder.

DnD is powerful with this spec, maybe even on single targets, though you may want to gauge that as well to be sure DnD vs IT+PS+BB/BS.

I totally agree, Dirge is big, it's not just RP it's bonus threat on PS (incidentally so is the slow zone application from Desecration, on everything in the range of the zone when it procs).

The other thing to gauge, Ray, is whether DC may actually be worth using when you don't have all your runes on CD. It will hit pretty hard with this spec, and I'd imagine it's hard enough to put off your other moves to throw those out (though even with 2-hand specs and lots of multi-rune abilities I still can't dump my RP with BoSanc). CE is not a discussion, if you have 2 or more mobs you're fighting, CE will easily be worth more damage than most of your other moves, god I love that buff!

Zethar
01-31-2009, 08:12 AM
CE is not a discussion, if you have 2 or more mobs you're fighting, CE will easily be worth more damage than most of your other moves, god I love that buff!

Ever since you mentioned it in one of the specs, I went for it and won't turn back it's just too good now.

aisher
02-01-2009, 03:31 PM
I've been running 10/8/53 DW for a couple weeks now... here's what I've discovered

1- I'd rather wear hit rating gear and skip Nerves of Cold Steel.
2- as long as dodge and parry are both > 20 unbuffed, the incoming damage seems to be fine.
3- Scourge strike is still really good if you're DW as long as you get 3 diseases and the +scourge strike Sigil (I'm using Venture Bay right now)
4- have some avoidance gear to switch into (I swap trinket/BP) when you need to take less damage. This adds about 5% avoidance
5- Wandering Plague is really lackluster. In a full 10man clear of naxx (in tank gear) it amounted to 1.8% of my dps-- and we were AOE'ing all the trash. Maybe it's better in DPS gear with higher crit.

I've tried Desecration, but the 5% damage doesn't seem to be worth the points-- I'd rather hit scourge strikes (than IT/PS) which do more damage, crit harder, and gives more GCD's for UB/DC.

XeldiablosX
02-09-2009, 01:56 AM
I started off as unholy for a while but then i found it lacking in TPS, i have been frost now for a while mainly but i am wanting to go back towards an unholy build also mainly because all of the DK's we run with are the 32/39 build or frost tanks and no one has EP. After reading through all of this an searching around what would be a suggested alteration of this spec that would yield a higher TPS given my current gear. Here is my armory link atm :

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azjol-Nerub&n=Elmuerta)

Any other tips would be appreciated.

XeldiablosX
02-09-2009, 11:33 AM
or how would something like this look overall

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000003050200000 000000000000000000235000335103105003040003103051&glyph=091204060504

sohcahtoa
04-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Hmm... i feel like nercoing this thread again, and I am wondering if this build is still viable or not.

I'm looking or a good non-frost DW build. My guild's main tank is a DK, and I'm the off-tank. So i decided i might want to try DW, so if 1h weapon drops we can do somethign with it beside sharding it.

Satorri
04-10-2009, 04:36 AM
The original build (ha ha we haven't touched this topic in a while) was interesting, though a little wonky, it certainly worked. Sort of a "death by 1000 cuts." It didn't do big spikes but it cruised very steadily. In 3.1 it will need some serious re-imagining, and while I wouldn't mind doing so I don't know how much trouble it's worth.

If you want to dual wield tank, not as Frost, I expect either will work, though you'll find Unholy relies a lot less on big strike dmg and Blood buffs your melee nicely but does do almost exclusively strike dmg. Play around with some talents and see what falls out, but generally the difference really just comes down to changing your weapons and adjusting some stats/talent points to play up the things dual wielding will be good at and not overly support its weaknesses (melee dmg will be high, strike dmg will be decreased, play out the specifics depending on your tree and spec).

Eldiablos, the spec looks fairly standard for one style, how would you use it? And at this point I'm remiss to get too much into a 3.1 tree, since 3.1 really is coming up fast.

Bryenne
04-10-2009, 06:01 AM
With 3.1 quickly running up on us, I've been messing more and more with the talent calc. With this threat being dug up from the past, I thought I'd throw my 2 pennies in.


5/51/15 - Frost DW Tank (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0050000000000000000000000000305053503 0003101031025101351005002305000000000000000000000&glyph=141220050406&version=9767)
Alright, so what the hell? 3 important aspects to cover in this build:

Frost - the main theme of the frost tree is strong mitigation and mostly non-melee damage. Most of the talents support OB and HB. If you're not going to go all the way down to HB, there is no point going even halfway down. Chilblains is included in this build as a utility, because I usually end up kiting the zombie chow, and certainly makes up for lacking a shaman or hunter with snares. That isn't to say it won't help elsewhere, like add tanking Sarth. Imp Icy Talons is talented because I usually run with half the raid being melee, and it's just an overall buff to our group dps. Those two talents could be dropped to finish off Glacier Rot to bump up your own dps. Otherwise, it's a pretty standard trip down the tree, with the exception of...

DW - the advantages of swinging a couple speedy one handers are only taken advantage of if we go 3 levels into unholy to pick up Necrosis. This plays very well with Black Ice and Tundra Stalker in the frost tree, putting out small but steady damage. Faster swings will also allow you to pop RS more often, which is why I picked the glyph for it (over UA). And obviously we have to spend the 3 points to improve hit.

Tank - keeping the tanking talents while still buffing the quick-hitting dps side of the build was the hardest part. I really, really don't like having to skip out on Bladed Armor, but it was either that or lose Necrosis, which is non-negotiable for a DW build. Otherwise, all the tanking talents are picked up along the way down the frost tree, as well as the top tiers in the other trees. Unholy Command could be swapped for Epidemic, but I don't expect disease duration to be a problem at all, with HB refreshing frost fever and Pestilence refreshing both diseases on all targets. And yes, having both diseases up will certainly increase the aoe tps, since shadow damage is buffed in this build.

Negotiable items - as stated above, Chilblains and Imp Icy Talons can be dropped if they are not needed, this really depends on the group. Glyph of Disease could also be replaced with UA, which is more beneficial to a MT. Theoretically, though, a DW build isn't going to be a raid MT, as you're more likely to be causing increased incoming damage (parry-haste).

The thing I like most about this build is that it can easily switch to dps mode by moving to Unholy presence (even faster swings!), as there are many encounters that only require one tank. As I play now, with a 2H frost tank build, switching to a dps role actually lowers my output. Makes me feel like a prot warrior. ;)

Comments welcome!

Satorri
04-10-2009, 06:36 AM
I would be very surprised if Necrosis beat Bladed Armor out, point for point, as a tank.

Granted, Necrosis + Black Ice could be somewhat nice with dual wielding, but Bladed Armor is pretty massive, ~160-170 AP per point? Next to a 4.0x% increase in white/RS dmg? The AP will also heavily buff HB which I'd imagine will be a hot topic, and 5 pts for about 800 AP is roughly 60 more dps on your main-hand and 35 on your off (compared to average 213 epics that's almost a 50% improvement compared to the 20% from Necrosis).

I don't know, you'd need to play it out and see what happens.

Bryenne
04-10-2009, 06:57 AM
I agree, it would take testing. For aoe purposes, I'm sure Bladed Armor beats out Necrosis, hands down. For single target, though, I'm not so sure. The numbers are kinda iffy to crunch, and a straight damage log is going to be more telling. If indicators are correct, and we get 3.1 on Tuesday, I might drop the coin to test this out. I'm still of the mindset that DW tanking is feasible, and just looks cooler. ;)

Satorri
04-11-2009, 04:25 AM
Yeah. =) Dual wielding seems like fun just to think of, I used to wish I could pull it off on my warrior, but you know it just won't fly without the shield. =(

They've talked about boosting one tree to work well specifically with dual wielding, Frost was suggested. Personally, I'd love to see them just add one talent adjustment in each tree to give dual wielding a way to be interesting and distinct, not just a weapon switch and a trade in %'s on the chart. Carefully balanced to not make dual wielding better, just functional in its own right. Killing Machine used to be the only ability like this, before it went to ppm, but then it also wasn't any good for tanking, only dual wielding could get near value for tanking. A talent in blood that let's HS hit with both weapons or a % of both weapons, Obliterate getting that treatment in frost, and ScS in Unholy. Handle it carefully, just so dual wielding can do a shade more dmg with the strike, and balance the modifier to keep the dmg reasonable for the gains in other values like melee dmg. It's hard to do of course for the sake of dual wielding, since with generous hit value dual wielding has a higher overall dmg potential (though we frequently can't make full use of that tanking).

Liquidwulfe
04-13-2009, 05:31 AM
If they do make one DK ability the "Stormstrike", I certainly hope they make it Obliterate. That would pretty much make every tree dual wield functional.

Post 3.1 however, I just cant see any viable tank build without going deep frost. The changes they made have make frost too good to ignore.