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Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 10:15 AM
It seems really strange that this hasn't been posted before, so maybe my search skills are just weak... I've checked here and at EJ, and haven't found a peep, and since I don't feel like replying to 10 random EJ threads to start my own post, I thought this would be a good place to start the discussion. :)

I strongly believe that resistance mechanics have changed in WotLK. After seeing Sapphiron a few times and watching SCT, it did not look like the right resistance rates or amounts to match our understanding. The most obvious piece is that partial resistances are not in 25% increments anymore.

I did some preliminary testing with a warlock last night, wearing different amounts of fire resist and having searing pain spammed in my face for 200+ casts. 200 isn't perfect stats, but it's only got about a 7% error on the results, which is plenty to see that things are different at the top end.

The resistance values I tried were 0% (short test, no partials as expected), 130, 215, 414, and 460 on a hunch. The hunch wasn't so conclusive, but these are the resist values I saw:


0 resist was 0%, really. I didn't see any partials.
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/wmdpl3wtf5yok?a=x399d2e) 130 FR - 25%
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/zyp6ibh2phews?a=x399d2e) 215 FR - 36%
WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/svbvtnqhhnf4c?a=x399d2e) 414 FR - 52%
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/vdk3nixhu4ddk?a=x399d2e) 460 FR - 55%

I fit these %s in Matlab and it fit best to a cubic poly, but I don't think my sample sizes were large enough to say that for certain, or give the formula. However, it's definitely a) not linear, and b) not 75% at 415.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3126/3216651231_4306306be7_d.jpg

Next I'm going to see what the shape of the partial resists looks like for a given resistance value. I have a feeling they want a much less swingy resist system... Even at 130 resist from just an aura, there are basically no full hits anymore. Check Sapphiron or Loatheb parses for lots of data points quickly.

Also probably of note is that there were no misses on the higher resist value trials. The 130 trial had the warlock completely gearless, so there were some misses, but for the rest she put a few pieces back on to keep her regen high enough to spam searing pain without going OOM. So I don't believe that resistance affects miss rates anymore either, which could probably have rather large implications for PvP.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there is no "cap" anymore, if it's an exponential curve (aka diminishing returns). There's no need for a hard cap with a curve that places high resistance rates out of reach just by availability and budget cost alone.

I'll get more trials at various resistances and see if I can get a likely formula out of it, but I wanted to start a discussion and see if there had already been work done elsewhere that I just haven't found yet.

Rasmfrackn

Kazeyonoma
01-22-2009, 10:24 AM
interesting, I don't see why they would've changed the way it works since this has been the one mechanic in game that they've ever GIVEN us. Hopefully a few others can test this today (against PvE mobs if possible, it is possible they changed how resistance works against players for pvp purposes without changing it for pve) and see if more conclusive results can be found.

jere
01-22-2009, 10:48 AM
Here are some sapphiron parses I did while offhealing in a 10 man:

130 FR:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/h1fzvdhdky45i?s=320745-332021&a=x2c3f3c)

417 FR:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/h1fzvdhdky45i?s=332228-345778&a=x2c3f3c)

Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Finally muttled my way through histogramming 130 and 414 in Excel.

There are a few other oddities... such as resists coming in certain fixed values (see Sapphiron), and not taking crits into account. That is, for these trials, all my resists were multiples of 10% (plus 2%, actually... so 12%, 22%, 32%, 42%, etc.), but crits were halfway between in terms of actual %, but matched up on amount resisted (16%, 24%, but the amount resisted fell into the same absolute values as the non-crit resists) . Come to think of it, that part might be the same as ever... you only resist a % of the base damage, and all the crit damage gets through?

Anyway, Histogram of the partials for 130 and 414 in bins of 10%:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3442/3217648995_2c1c7be054_o_d.png

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3325/3217648989_0027c387b5_o_d.png

Like I thought, they're fairly... consistent now. It's not so swingy as having a 50% resistance level was before, where full hits and full resists were coming through. Now it's within a pretty narrow range most of the time.

Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 11:25 AM
interesting, I don't see why they would've changed the way it works since this has been the one mechanic in game that they've ever GIVEN us. Hopefully a few others can test this today (against PvE mobs if possible, it is possible they changed how resistance works against players for pvp purposes without changing it for pve) and see if more conclusive results can be found.

Yeah, it's entirely possible it's different in PvE vs PvP... but it's definitely obvious that the partial resist increments are now different. Looking at Sapph's aura ticks, it seemed to be 10% (or so) there too. I never saw any partials that weren't increments of 160 on the parse I was checking, on anyone in the raid. I guess that makes sense since the aura is a relatively fixed value.

Just looking at any Sapphiron parse though, if you know you were at the usual 417 for all 3 crafted pieces, it's probably going to say somewhere between 47% and 52%. I haven't seen much outside of that range.

What I'm really hoping to do is get our Arcane mage in a full setup so he's around 550, and see how much he resists next time.

Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 11:38 AM
Here are some sapphiron parses I did while offhealing in a 10 man:

130 FR:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/h1fzvdhdky45i?s=320745-332021&a=x2c3f3c)

417 FR:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/h1fzvdhdky45i?s=332228-345778&a=x2c3f3c)

Thanks for a separate set of data, Jere.

WWS shows his 48% overall resist amount, and
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/h1fzvdhdky45i?s=332228-345778&bl=332228&filter=spell%3D%22frost+aura%22+and+event%3D%22spe ll_periodic_damage%22+and+target%3D%22jere%22)
is what I used to filter out all his numbers.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/3217696855_b8882fab70_d.jpg

His resist values are also always in multiples of 160, which probably makes sense. Doing the same filter for Deathblooms on Loatheb is another consistent number if you put up NR aura.

Kazeyonoma
01-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Hrm... I'll be following this thread but I haven't raided against a resistance based fight in a while so I can't test.

Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 12:22 PM
Hrm... I'll be following this thread but I haven't raided against a resistance based fight in a while so I can't test.

I think what I'm seeing is pretty consistent. Of course the important next steps are to most importantly find the formula, and then maybe find a decent breakpoint where the DR on the curve turns from helpful to a waste of budget. My impression is that ~36% from 216 is a heck of a lot more efficient than ~48% from 416.

I'll see how much more my warlock friend is willing to push her 2 key.

jere
01-22-2009, 01:03 PM
Actually if you think about it, my numbers are always multiples of 120 (10% of 1200 in the 10 man version of Sapphiron)

360 = 30%
480 = 40%
600 = 50%
720 = 60%

Another interesting thing this shows is that damage reduction from talents, etc. comes after the resisted portion is taken out.

Rasmfrackn
01-22-2009, 01:15 PM
Actually if you think about it, my numbers are always multiples of 120 (10% of 1200 in the 10 man version of Sapphiron)

360 = 30%
480 = 40%
600 = 50%
720 = 60%

Another interesting thing this shows is that damage reduction from talents, etc. comes after the resisted portion is taken out.

Ah, good point.

And yeah, my 2% offs are probably due to ShotT and GbtL being an always-on 9%. So spelldmg reduction talents really improve as you resist, since the resist portion is taken out first. That's nice.

jere
01-22-2009, 01:24 PM
I may have had BoS on by mistake too. I sometimes forget to switch to wisdom when I swap from tanking to offhealing. I would need to do the math to find out.

Rasmfrackn
01-28-2009, 01:41 PM
Since this is actually getting some circulation, I wanted to follow up a little.

I haven't found time to get better statistics on my trials, but I did get pointed to this blog post by a friend trying to wrangle a Sarth3D kill.

Greedy goblin: Elemental resistance (http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2008/12/elemental-resistance.html)

His findings looks a lot like mine, except his curve goes down from 100% instead of up from 0%. :) His findings also seem to suggest a cap of sorts, but only due to level difference. It's an interesting piece of additional information, but doesn't have much implication for raiding where we know everything we care about is coming from a +3.

I promise I'll get better stats at a couple breakpoints this week now that our raid nights are over.

Ghladum
01-29-2009, 02:55 AM
Good work on these numbers!

So far the takehome message seems to be that it's harder to reach resistance numbers that knock off as much School Magic Damage as we're used to on old fights like Hydross, but on the other hand, a smaller amount is needed for a more significant reduction than before, and this reduction seems to be in a tighter normal curve around a mean reduction percentage...

Interesting implications for future dungeon design.

zoefschildpad
02-03-2009, 03:13 PM
is there a limit to resistance now? I'm talking mathematical limits here, if you have say, a billion resistance, where would that put you? more than 100% reduction or is there an asymptote?

Rasmfrackn
02-04-2009, 12:38 PM
There's an asymptote. Looks like someone over at EJ finally did some more thorough testing, and has a much more likely formula than just fitting the resist curve. It basically follows the armor format:

Resist / (Level*5 + Resist)

So, as Resist approaches infinity, the resistance value approaches 100%, but never quite reaches it. 415 would be 50% resist against a boss, but you'd need ~1245 resist to get to 75%.

Resistance Mechanics in WotLK - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/)
Cross-posting is fun!

GravityDK
02-04-2009, 06:37 PM
There's an asymptote.
Resistance Mechanics in WotLK - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/)
Cross-posting is fun!

Thanks. EJ gives me headaches.

Binford
04-08-2010, 12:42 PM
Thanks! That helped a lot!

If i might add a question...

I guess we still need this. Yes, we are that slow! Only at 9/12 normal 10m with no intentions to go HM after and if we kill LK. We call that SLOWGRESSION! ;) There are large numbers of excuses to be made but thats not the put, i actually want to know this even if we never needed it.

Are there certain points at which you jump to the next "level" of resistance? and can you take advantage of this

Since from all the maths and graphs its looks like you are supposed to resist the middle ones more likely that the outer ones, lets say 12,37,37,12% of 30,40,50,60% of the dmg resisted, can you just jump over to the next?
I know that if you were at 10,40,40,10% it wouldnŽt be the same again at the next lvl, more like 15,45,35,5%, but wouldnŽt that be better?

I understand that the amount of frost resist you gain is not linear to the amount of total dmg resisted over time, its something like DR
But if you have like 400, and only add 1 point, would it jump from 42 to 45, where from 399 to 400 it just added a point from 41to 42%?
Its not linear, its more like a curve, but wouldnt it at some points look more like "stairs"

Does that make sense? I know its abit too much maths, dmg will still be "spikey" as you can resist the lowest of the 4 percentages 3 times in a row, and afterall i guess it comes down to feeling comfortable (and the slacker dps/healers learning how to deal with iceblocks :D)
Are there any conclusions what parts or numbers of res gear you should get at least? We are not that hardcore that iŽd swap bracer/helm enchants (yes, im a LW, love that cheap leg enchants) every week for this, gotta save muniz for choppa!

Sorry for some bad english you may find

Kazeyonoma
04-08-2010, 01:22 PM
no, they changed that in the patch, basically even small amounts of resistance gains, will act like armor, for physical attacks.

jere
04-08-2010, 03:27 PM
Actually, the answer should probably be "yes sort of". The current "new" resistance mechanics have damage reduced in increments of 10% spread over 4 increments, at most. That means if you currently have 130 resist from an aura, you are "guaranteed" at least 10% resist on spells and have some "average" resist associated with that point as well.

The "guaranteed" portion goes up in steps. I.E. you aren't guaranteed 20% resist until you reach a certain level of resistance. The "average" resist, however, does increase with each little bit of resistance you get.

EDIT: Lets look at this table as an example:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5309/resistprobs2.jpg

Note you are only guaranteed 10% resistance @130 resist and only guaranteed 20% resistance at 235 resist in that table (the values are actually 128 and 219, respectively, but that table was only showing points of interest as an example). So there are "steps" to resistance if you are only concerned with "guaranteed" resistance. Going from 130 to 180 resist does increase your average as well though (see the probabilities in the chart), so there is still lots of benefit in increasing your resistance inbetween those "steps"

Binford
04-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Thanks alot, i wasnt that far off.

Are there any numbers like the 128 and 219 for those steps. Jumping up a lvl of guaranteed resist could be nice, in the above discribed unlucky situation, where RNG decides to only let you resist the guaranteed one 3 times in a row.

As we progress more, ofc i wouldnt care, but my guess is that we will see some fire in ruby sanctum, 3 new crafted lvl200 sets are easy to put in the game :) (im really only guessing here, not THAT much of a news reader)

jere
04-08-2010, 06:12 PM
Against a LvL 83:



Resistance Minimum Possible Resist
128 10%
219 20%
340 30%
510 40%
765 50%

Binford
04-20-2010, 09:58 AM
Hello, its me again. Thanks for all the info
I might be a bit overdoing this, but as allready said, we are slacking in 10N still (its fun when youŽr drunk :D)

This is a "list" i put together on our guild forum and i thought i might share this as a "thank you".
Keep in mind that its only a list, if everything is needed, and lootable (have yet to see Ony drop a ring) as a completly different question
Feel free to copy/edit it if you think its useful, or you found something i forgot





Gear

Cloth (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.1&filter=minrl=80;cr=28:86;crs=1:11;crv=0:0)
Leather (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.2&filter=minrl=80;cr=28:86;crs=1:11;crv=0:0)
Mail (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.3&filter=minrl=80;cr=28:86;crs=1:11;crv=0:0)
Plate (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.4&filter=minrl=80;cr=28:86;crs=1:11;crv=0:0)
Chest/Belt/Feet +115/86/86FrR

List of Onyxia ilvl 245 tanking helmets (+10FrR) (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4&filter=sl=1;minle=235;minrl=80;cr=28:16:22:103:114 ;crs=1:2159:1:4:4;crv=0:0:125:0:0) (bit of a dodgy workaround there to only filter tanking, damn feral gear :P
Might be worth to replace that 251 helmet you might have if you enchant it (see below)

For the sake of a complete list Titanium Frostguard Ring (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43582)
Not worth it tbh, im below def cap without geming for it allready, pure FrR+STA gear would only make sense for a bear i guess
BUT: Ony resist rings: (http://www.wowhead.com/items=4&filter=sl=1;minle=235;minrl=80;cr=28:16:22:103:114 ;crs=1:2159:1:4:4;crv=0:0:125:0:0) (+25/30) GIEV!


Enchanting the gear?!?


Arcanum of the Frosty Soul (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44137)

Formula: Enchant Cloak - Superior Frost Resistance (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37332) The time is yes! Worth the AC/agi whatever bonus loss

Fur Lining - Frost Resist (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=57694) LW only!
would lose about 1200HP cos LWs get a bracer enchant for 62+ to the normal enchanting thing, but i think its worth it.


Consumables

Lesser Flask of Resistance (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44939) Even tho it looks damn cheap, let an Elixier master make it, Boring Tundra is not the ususal farm spot iŽd guess. Trainer taught.


Recipe: Mighty Frost Protection Potion (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44566) Even cheaper
The 2 pots per fight trick with prepull using is not needed, since we can reach phase 3 really easy (and that far more than 1 minute of the reuse cooldown, the 5kHP absorbed would be really wasted! Might be a good idea to preuse a Indestructable Potion for the start as a tank)
So think of it as an Oh-Shit Button, a Healthstone you forget to use http://yaksmen.guildomatic.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

Icecrown NPC that drops FrR stuff, only if you have Alchi/LW/Ench in your group (http://www.wowhead.com/npc=32289) List of all resist drops in IC is somewhere in the comments. Dont get shocked by the drop rate, its really ONLY if you have that profession!