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law90026
01-21-2009, 05:57 PM
So guild raid took place. Loot rules were relatively simple (a lot of backstory to it) and was essentially need if you need but don't be a dick/douche/lootwhore.

Sarth +1 goes down. Tanking piece drops, quite possibly best in slot. Pally MT rolls and brand new first time raiding with guild Warrior OT rolls. Warrior OT wins but is asked to pass for Pally MT (who has raided consistently with the guild since WotLK).

Warrior OT passes but complains it would have been a huge upgrade from the blue he was wearing.

Did the right thing happen?

Braggha
01-22-2009, 12:34 AM
No. If you accepted Warrior to the guild, and he contributed, and EVER won the item, he must take the item, ESPECIALLY if its huge upgrade for him. And you not warned him that such a thing could happen, yes?

If I'd be that warrior, i'd leave you guild asap. No drama, no blaming, but just not right thing imo.

And, use some DKP system, to avoid such issues.

Apsat
01-22-2009, 12:47 AM
I can understand this from both sides, You wanted to reward your MT who had raided all the time with you but at the same time your guild created these rules so should stick by them, Not just stick with them when they suit Them.

I personally think it should have gone to the OT for 3 reasons,

1) - He won the roll and wasn't been a loot whore about it.
2) - It would have been a bigger upgrade for him.
3) - Less likely to now leave your guild and leave you without a OT.

While you can find/may have another OT it stops a bit of bitter blood between him and the rest of the guild.

Edgar
01-22-2009, 01:04 AM
If the rules say when you win the roll you get the item unless you got like X pieces of loot before then the warrior should've gotten the item.

Simple as that. What's the purpose of putting up rules if you bend them to screw over a new member. This is an uncomfortable situation for both sides. The newly-joined warrior is happy to get an upgrade over his blue and is asked to pass the item even though he won. He's new in the guild so he doesn't want to look like a lootwhore and just take the item, he passes it. The guild just invited this guy and knows that they actually set up loot-rules, they know it's a huge upgrade for the warrior, yet they ask the warrior to pass it on.

Wrong choice in my opinion.

yobotra
01-22-2009, 01:13 AM
Always set loot rules before raid. These are just the things that cause guild drama and ppl leaving guild. So on my opinion you did it wrong

Edgar
01-22-2009, 01:14 AM
They did have rules they just ignored them to get the pally the item.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 01:43 AM
Stick to the rules, most imporant there is.

(maybe make another rule, we have one: members have priority over trials on mainspec items)

Just make sure you don't get caught by the stuation. You ask members to become the best they can, then you should give them the chance for the best gear availble.

Fayre
01-22-2009, 06:25 AM
Yep, always stick with your rules. If you don't like the way it turned out under your rules, change them... but AFTER the raid.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 06:36 AM
Do a "what if" excercise with the other officers and then make some rules to not get caught by unpleasant situations.
"What if there drops an ultra rare mount from Malygos?"
We raid roll it.
"What if someone 1 day in guild wins the roll?"
Well, ok we raidroll it only between people who passed their trial.

Another one:
"What if the winner wants to pass an item to a friend?"
Nahhh, that can provide favoritism and by strategic passing people can get shafted out of gear. So, passing only allowed to next highest roller.
etc. etc. etc.

Just don't accept a "this will never happen" reply, because Murphys law kicks in.

MontanaTaur
01-22-2009, 07:02 AM
My guild has a pretty straightforward rule that handles situations like this. New members are considered "initiates" for 30 days. During that time, they can roll on loot only if a full member doesn't want it. This is explained to new members in many places (including right on the application they fill out when they join).

The reason for this is to prevent someone from coming in, grabbing up a bunch of loot and then leaving the guild. You have to show at least a little commitment to stick around before we start handing you epics. I think it is a good policy...even though it cost me my tier 4 helm back in the day in my own initiate phase (the damn thing dropped 2 days before I got full member standing...and then did not drop again for 2 months).

So if this had occurred in our guild, assuming the Warrior was a new member, he simply would not have been allowed to roll at all.

If the Warrior had been around long enough to have full-member status, then he would have gotten to roll and the item would have gone to the highest roller.

macfeagle
01-27-2009, 10:35 AM
As the loot master you can probably get away with almost anything, and people will accept a lot because they will put up with a certain amount of unfairness because they want to raid, but personally I don't support this.

If something drops and the loot rule is /roll, the correct response the winner is always "grats".

If a "surprise" drops, i.e. something that is in the loot table and should not have been a surprise at all, and you modified your loot rules from "/roll" to "/roll but I'll put a lot of pressure on you to pass if you win if you are a new person we took because our regulars either don't exist or are flakes", this is poor raid leadership.

It sounds like the OT's roll was perfectly fine under the loot rules used by the raid.

If you want to make sure the your regulars get the loot they want, and your new people get the leftovers, use a dkp system and eat the hassle that this causes.

The "initiate" idea also sounds interesting. Dkp is awful due to high loot volume and general perception that new people don't get loot (which doesn't seem to be true).

kolben
01-27-2009, 10:47 AM
No, the right thing did not happen.

This has nothing to do with video games, the people in charge need a life lesson in fairness and honesty.

Gadholm
01-27-2009, 10:55 AM
I would have given it to the MT. Why? Because the MT probably has a lot of loot already, and the OT is going to get loads down the line by default. The MT did many raids, ran many heroics, and worked hard to create a raid group that the OT had just joined. When a best in slot item drops, that high level reward should go to the MT, a person you can trust and who has earned it. If you have an OT who thinks on his first day in a guild he somehow deserves a best in slot item because of a /roll, he is not someone I want to be raiding with.

I will say all this could have been avoided by a conversation between the MT/OT and RL before the raids that if a best in slot item or something dropped it would go to the MT. I know any OTs I take always get loaded up on epics and tier, so they understand reserving a couple items.

Kancho
01-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Maybe you can have the Pally MT pass off the next item to the OT, as a "credit" for him passing this time?

Inaara
01-27-2009, 11:09 AM
When dealing with recruits and members the member should always get the upgrade. I see no reason in giving some newbie loot when they haven't earned the right and no, "being there" for the kill doesn't earn them the right when they're clearly being carried.

If a raider doesnt need an item then it goes to the recruit, it's simple. When we're talking about "best in slot" loot it usually occurs with guilds that are farming content. I am a strong believer in Gear Maps that are made by each member to show everyone what gear they want before heading into the next tier of raiding. Gear maps can be used in ALL loot systems and make it alot easier to distribute loot.

So was the right thing done? As long as the recruit was made aware that members would get loot over him then yes, definetely.

Pixel
01-27-2009, 11:18 AM
you just changed the loot rules to:

Gear out our clique.

law90026
01-27-2009, 05:45 PM
As an update, I hear where all of you are coming from and I agree that the right thing probably wasn't done at the time. I (as the raid leader) did have a long chat with the OT and let him know why I did it and he was cool about it. As background, the reason why I asked the OT to pass was because there had been recent loot drama recently and I had to weigh between following our loot rules strictly and piss off a lot of the core raiders or try and find a compromise.

The OT has since picked up a ton of other gear though and he's happy. Thanks all for input though.

Gadholm
01-27-2009, 06:47 PM
The OT has since picked up a ton of other gear though and he's happy.

Exactly...

Jonamar
01-29-2009, 07:26 AM
you just changed the loot rules to:

Gear out our clique.


Probabably #1 cause for Guild Drama. Don't fall into this.

greendragonempire
01-29-2009, 07:48 AM
No. If you accepted Warrior to the guild, and he contributed, and EVER won the item, he must take the item, ESPECIALLY if its huge upgrade for him. And you not warned him that such a thing could happen, yes?

If I'd be that warrior, i'd leave you guild asap. No drama, no blaming, but just not right thing imo.

And, use some DKP system, to avoid such issues.

i agree, if that warrior was wearing blues, it would be in your guilds best interest to upgrade him with gear ASAP. What if your mt burns out? Or is unavailble for a naxx25 night?

Another simple case of lootwhoring

greendragonempire
01-29-2009, 07:50 AM
Do a "what if" excercise with the other officers and then make some rules to not get caught by unpleasant situations.
"What if there drops an ultra rare mount from Malygos?"
We raid roll it.
"What if someone 1 day in guild wins the roll?"
Well, ok we raidroll it only between people who passed their trial.

Another one:
"What if the winner wants to pass an item to a friend?"
Nahhh, that can provide favoritism and by strategic passing people can get shafted out of gear. So, passing only allowed to next highest roller.
etc. etc. etc.

Just don't accept a "this will never happen" reply, because Murphys law kicks in.

officer council on RARE KT / MALY drops, but for everything else ... epically sarth 1 ...

Darksend
01-29-2009, 08:01 AM
not to be unpopular, but if an app rolls on an item over the main tank on his 1st day in the guild, he should be gkicked.

the fact he even rolled at all shows a huge ammount of disrespect not only to the main tank but your entire guild.

an app should never get loot over a member end of story

Pixel
01-29-2009, 08:27 AM
that wasn't the loot rules. and the game has changed. naxx isnt hard. its pugged everyday all day. its not disrespectful at all. if you didnt get your loot this week you will get it next week with or without your guild. the way the game is now setup is to show that your guild is high up on progression is how many acheivements you have in 25man raids.

to avoid drama change your loot policy to have a trial policy in place so that a new recruit cant loot a ton of stuff then gquit. you should also try to use a dkp/sk system because loot council will look very cliquey very quickly.

i currently run on an sk system and its easy. you loot something you cant loot anything till everyone gets something then you start over. if you can down the mob once you can down it again.

Runes
01-29-2009, 09:03 AM
There is no such thing as a fair loot system because there is no objective standard for what is fair. Hence, once you establish your loot system all you can do is follow the it diligently. If members feel that the system needs to be changed then change it after the raid.

greendragonempire
01-29-2009, 09:12 AM
So guild raid took place. Loot rules were relatively simple (a lot of backstory to it) and was essentially need if you need but don't be a dick/douche/lootwhore.


Well it looks like you failed on this policy, warrior could have upgraded from blues to a nice epic chest, while your MT SHOULD have at LEAST t7.5 set item or t7.5 offset making him a lootwhore.

Not only did you break your own rule, but you broke one rule twice.

Perhaps its time to change your policy?

Change it to -> loot council on all items with all items going to loot council first.

Pixel
01-29-2009, 09:33 AM
Well it looks like you failed on this policy, warrior could have upgraded from blues to a nice epic chest, while your MT SHOULD have at LEAST t7.5 set item or t7.5 offset making him a lootwhore.

Not only did you break your own rule, but you broke one rule twice.

Perhaps its time to change your policy?

Change it to -> loot council on all items with all items going to loot council first.



remember to gear out your buddies first! you wouldn't want to leave things to chance because chance is as close to fair as possible and no one likes that.

hvidgaard
01-29-2009, 12:29 PM
I will not state if you did the right thing or not, I'm fairly sure there is more to the story than you can write in any reasonable time. However, in my guild the rules are quite simple:

If you contributed to down a boss, you can roll on the loot.

(passing if you already got an item and all that jazz) that includes any outsides we may someday need to bring along. Nothing more nothing less. Just because someone doesn't raid as much, doesn't mean they don't spend money on flasks, repairs, food and put effort to get the boss down.

Darksend
01-29-2009, 12:46 PM
I will not state if you did the right thing or not, I'm fairly sure there is more to the story than you can write in any reasonable time. However, in my guild the rules are quite simple:

If you contributed to down a boss, you can roll on the loot.

(passing if you already got an item and all that jazz) that includes any outsides we may someday need to bring along. Nothing more nothing less. Just because someone doesn't raid as much, doesn't mean they don't spend money on flasks, repairs, food and put effort to get the boss down.

if someone is an app or not a fulltime raider they have no right to roll on loot over mains/main raiders.

thats like letting me as a feral main tank roll on cloth for a boomkin set even though i never spec boomking and its best in slot for every cloth caster.

hvidgaard
01-29-2009, 12:55 PM
if someone is an app or not a fulltime raider they have no right to roll on loot over mains/main raiders.

thats like letting me as a feral main tank roll on cloth for a boomkin set even though i never spec boomking and its best in slot for every cloth caster.

I did say "(passing if you already got an item and all that jazz)" which includes mainspec > offspec and mains > alts and more, but that wasn't the essence in the post. App or pug, if you contribute to downing a boss, and loot drops for your spec, you can roll. And did you miss the part where I said this is how we do in my guild?

Ozmata
01-29-2009, 01:13 PM
Right thing? I think a good thing happened. Gearing the MT a good thing for the guild. Loot rules were used, the warrior won, he had the option of saying this is a serious upgrade for me, thanks a ton guys, I'll put it to go use for the guild. He was asked however to pass because others felt the pally would benefit more and the OT would be able to get a significant upgrade elsewhere. Warrior ended up being a nice guy, which is good.

This depends on two things being true however. Did the warrior complain about it in a serious or extended way? If he simply said, hey, huge upgrade for me, appreciate me being nice, MT Pally guy, that's ok. He was being generous. If he moans alot about how everyone forced him to, etc, etc, that's lame and just adds drama that's not needed, and he isn't a nice guy, he's just a passive-aggressive jerk.

If the Pally guy needs to pass on a minor upgrade that he wins that the Warrior guy wants later. Don't abuse the nice guys you have.

MontanaTaur
01-29-2009, 01:24 PM
I will not state if you did the right thing or not, I'm fairly sure there is more to the story than you can write in any reasonable time. However, in my guild the rules are quite simple:

If you contributed to down a boss, you can roll on the loot.

(passing if you already got an item and all that jazz) that includes any outsides we may someday need to bring along. Nothing more nothing less. Just because someone doesn't raid as much, doesn't mean they don't spend money on flasks, repairs, food and put effort to get the boss down.

That works for your guild, and that's cool. My guild goes with the system noted earlier -- newcomers are initiates for 30 days, during which they can only get loot if a full member doesn't need it. The key thing here -- which is missing from the original story -- is that everyone knows this up front, so there are no surprises when the nice epic drops.

This hasn't happened yet, but we DO have the rule that this is suspended if we PUG someone for the raid. In that case, both members and initiates have the same standing to roll (as does the pug). The theory here is pretty simple -- the PUGs won't come if they don't get the chance to roll, so we open it up to them. It would be silly to let a non-guildie roll, but prevent an initiate guildy from rolling, so we open it up to them as well. I have to add, that in the 1+ year I've been in this guild, I don't recall ever bringing along any non-guildies on raids, so I've never seen this rule applied.

We've had very little loot drama around newcomers vs members. We've had TONS of loot drama regarding items that are good for multiple classes...first clashes between caster dps and clothie healers, and now rogues upset about feral druids rolling/bidding on leather gear with +hit on it (among other stats). What a headache.

IceHaus151
01-29-2009, 01:25 PM
if someone is an app or not a fulltime raider they have no right to roll on loot over mains/main raiders.

thats like letting me as a feral main tank roll on cloth for a boomkin set even though i never spec boomking and its best in slot for every cloth caster.


Thats not anything like that! With the rules in place he had just as much right as the MT to roll on that item. The OT main spec is tank. It was a tanking item that dropped. So he isn't using it for his "off" spec. It was still his main spec. And without the OT would there have been enough people to start the raid and/or complete it? Looking at your rules, he had the same right as the MT. Do I think the new OT deserved a best in slot item? That is irrelvent. Im just going based on the rules at the beginning of the raid ;-)

hvidgaard
01-29-2009, 02:57 PM
MontanaTaur - we're not hardcore by any means, and being in our raidcore just means you are auto signed up for the two weekly raids. Our focus is on the social parts of the game, and we're pretty much just some of us that enjoy raiding as well. So far we've cleared all 10-man save Sarth2d+3d, to a point where we can clear Naxx in 4 hours time.

But if I was in a more hardcore raiding enviroment, I would see some kind of DKP instated, which would prevent the newcomers to get loot over me anyway.

kolben
01-29-2009, 03:46 PM
So guild raid took place. Loot rules were relatively simple (a lot of backstory to it) and was essentially need if you need but don't be a dick/douche/lootwhore.


To those saying an "app" should'nt have rolled. I couldn't disagree with that if it were the case, but it doesn't sound like the way this guild a) was doing loot, b) has no concept of an "app/recruit" or restrictions on loot for new members..

The way I read it, and the OP can correct me if I'm wrong... They were doing a /roll for drops and awarding items to the winners via master looter without any realy discussion except for this drop.

The issue is simple to me if I understand the situation. They made a special case for this guy and awarded him the item regardless of the roll. Some think it fair because of some really outdated ideas about tank gearing, I think it's premadona attitudes about entitlement to gear and hand picking upgrades completely ignoring whatever loot system is in place. This is sooo 2004.

Yay world of dramacraft. Hope it got worked out on your next run.

law90026
01-29-2009, 10:17 PM
Already posted an update on page 1 >.>

Again, thanks for the comments.

Hit Me
02-10-2009, 11:10 AM
If you have some kind of prio or something than that's cool, but if the warrior wasn't going to be allowed to have the item regardless, why did you even let him roll? It doesn't sound like people were being up front with him and that can cause problems. How you handle loot is how you handle loot, but everybody should be aware of the rules beforehand and once the rules are established, they shouldn't be changed because whoever you prefer didn't win the roll.

Guthammer
02-10-2009, 03:10 PM
I would say there were 3 bad things that happened here--assuming that the newbie OT had a full right to roll.

1) You broke your own rules during raid. The loot rules are the contract holding the guild together.

2) You loot griefed. Leftovers, on Silver Hand, has a very strong culture of not dictating to anyone what they may or may not spend their points on. Pressuring anyone, at any time over loot to pass is bad. Yes, people have the potential to spend their own points to piss off someone who was really exiceted to get the loot, but you risk being black listed by the people who do the slotting if you do.

3) LO wouldn't judge on this basis, and I think lessor than the first 2 but the upgrade went to the tank where it provided the least utility.

Devish
02-24-2009, 08:41 PM
in general i would call it wrong but if u'd asked him nicely for passing the item to the MT, i wont call it wrong after all, make sure u change the rules after the raid and make sure this guy is really fine with this his decission. more rules, less drama :)

Gyunikuana
02-27-2009, 11:24 AM
Declaring rules like "Don't be a dick/douchebag" is like saying "We don't have rules, just don't piss us off" imo.

Sure, it's easy to say "Well everyone knows what that means so just use your head", but they must forget that WoW's population is not all like-minded. To avoid any loot drama, clearly define your rules. If you ask people not to be douchebags, then define what a douchebag is, otherwise it comes down to interpretation (and misinterpretation). If the rules are defined, there's no room for argument.

In the case of the OP, the loot rules said he could roll, so he did, but did not receive the item. That's unfair. If you want to reward people who spend the most time raiding with you, use DKP.

LokÝCea
03-06-2009, 06:22 AM
yes, if a person is there then they are entitled to roll. I myself took a OT and he won 3 loots, He was meant to be joining guild after raid. After raid i asked did he like our raid and should i now invite him, his reply was 'naaa i think ill move server', i found it hard to stomach. But you have to stick by your rules.

If they are there, as much as someone else deserves in yuor mind, it takes the 10/25 to bring the bosses down and the team need rewarding.

Erichilles
03-06-2009, 06:25 AM
this post is almost 2 months old.. why are people still posting? >.>