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Thymoleon
01-21-2009, 12:53 PM
Hello guys,
was ML in an Archavon25 run and the following issue occurred:
while forming the group i specified that i needed 1600+ dps (cause that is the average dps required to get him down, i supposed). Eventually there were four rogues in the group. One of them was pulling only 1300 dps.
It happened that three rogue items dropped, and I decided to exclude the rogue who didnt meet the requirements i stated from the loot.
Obviously he started insulting me ect ect, but i didnt care about that.
i'd like to know the opinion of some of you, since i'm no expert raider.
Thanks

Satrina
01-21-2009, 01:04 PM
He was there, he contributed, you won. Why would you exclude him from loot?

Labguy23
01-21-2009, 03:46 PM
Whether he deserved it or not isn't the issue.

Do you think treating this individual in this manner damaged your and your guild's reputation? How many people do you think he will tell that are you are unfair? How much drama did it create?

If it was me, I would have let him roll. I'm a big fan of building bridges, not burning them.

Bulk
01-22-2009, 12:59 AM
I'm sorry, but you're very much in the wrong here. You bought him (thus locking him to the raid), and killed the boss (you don't mention, but I'm guessing you got him down first time) - just because he didn't meet your arbitrary DPS limit doesn't mean he didn't contribute to the raid.

I bet you didn't tell anyone before hand you were going to exclude anyone who didn't meet this DPS requirement either, which makes what you did even more wrong.

Ohnoto
01-22-2009, 05:53 AM
I agree that you were in the wrong here, coming from Guild leader and a Raid leader. If the person was there and helped they have the right to looting. Even if was subpar your standards.

Yes, it is stated that to kill him within 5 minutes on Heroic you need every member doing the 1600 DPS +. This was a much bigger deal 1-2 weeks after the expansion came out as most were not geared.

I would assume that in your 25 man you had some people doing 2500-3000 DPS. This well more than makes up for that 300 he was lacking.

If he was doing the best he could given his gear / experience he very much deserves the loot.

Thymoleon
01-22-2009, 07:45 AM
Thank you for your contribute dudes, much appreciated.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 07:57 AM
I'm a bit on the side of the topicstarter here. Every dps should know what dps they do in a fight.
If the leader asked for someone doing at least 1600 dps (which tbh isn't hard) and the rogue LIED to the leader about his capabilities expecting a free ride to free loot to which he piggybacked on the other raidmembers............I think the decision was correct.
Rogue lied about his capabilities to get in a raid to get loot, not through his own effort but of other peoples efforts.

If you let things like this go you jeapordise future attempts because other low dps lying people will try to come in and you might not meet enrage timers.

Ohnoto
01-22-2009, 07:59 AM
Not everyone knows thier DPS. Not everyone has Recount. Still not the rogues fault.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 08:03 AM
Everyone has to contribute. If you asked for a specific contribution: (1600 dps) and someone doesn't meet that contribution then while it may sound harsh, it's only fair to the others who did what you asked for and even beyond to have some penalty for someone underperforming.

Not the raidleaders fault that the rogue doesn't know his own dps and didn't meet the requirements specifically asked for. He had the choice of NOT joining a raid where 1600 dps was required and asked for.
(While I wouldn't do the same as the topicstarter, I just wouldn't invite that rogue in the future. But what penalty to give is another discussion.)

Ohnoto
01-22-2009, 08:20 AM
If a player was there for a boss kill, he deserves loot. That is down right fair. Apparently he was good enough to kill the boss with only being subpar 300 DPS based on one persons assement.

Now, if they could not kill down the boss or get close to it after a couple of tries, then yes, you start looking at the lowest DPS (If that is the problem) and replace them.

I fully understand that whole thing of needing 1600 DPS for killing him, but if I go in and I have 1900 and someone else has 1300 then that all evens out.

In the past I've had to PUG 1 person for my guild runs of Naxx and many of my members have lost loot to these PUGs. Do they complain saying "They arent in the guild, they did this or they did that" No, because everyone knows that it is FAIR to allow anyone at a boss kill to roll.

Satrina
01-22-2009, 08:25 AM
Or maybe he lagged. Why assume it was a lie?

morelore
01-22-2009, 08:29 AM
He was there, he participated, and the boss died. He deserves his loot. If you're going to play games with "required DPS" and numbers and crap, then you state it up front so everyone knows not to raid with you, and you should kick people *before* the boss is down. Maybe you could form your raid at the target dummy so everyone joining can demonstrate before you accept them.

Good luck pugging with that policy.

Ohnoto
01-22-2009, 08:39 AM
The thing about DPS meters also is that they do not always pick up everyone's DPS. You should never fully trust them. Ive been in groups where one person is top on mine, but 3rd on another.

A ranged persons DPS Meter may not pick up a Melee's and on Vault its not uncommon for that to happen as he is jumping around alot and there is alot of movement going on.

Telvannis
01-22-2009, 08:40 AM
Personally I would have let him roll on loot and marked him on my list as bad, since you didn't state the DPS requirements were also a loot qualifier.

But I see your reasoning. 1300 DPS is pretty terrible.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 09:31 AM
He was there, he participated, and the boss died. He deserves his loot. If you're going to play games with "required DPS" and numbers and crap, then you state it up front so everyone knows not to raid with you, and you should kick people *before* the boss is down. Maybe you could form your raid at the target dummy so everyone joining can demonstrate before you accept them.

Good luck pugging with that policy.
OP stated required dps numbers up front. He just didn't state the penalties for not making that number up front.

I don't state my "penalties" up front either or otherwise you will always see people are gona walk the line with em.
Yesterday things were going too easy and a lot slack came about. Between Razuvious and and Gothik we had 3 ninja pulls wiping the raid. I very clearly told: "I don't want any ninjapulls anymore". And when someone did, I called the raid for the evening "as the penalty".

morelore
01-22-2009, 09:50 AM
If you're doing to deny loot to someone after a successful kill, for any reason, you had better state that up front. Doing it after the fact, for *any reason*, is loot stealing. I imagine the OP would be pretty pissed if he got passed on loot because "he took too much damage".

orcstar
01-22-2009, 10:04 AM
It is not a steal at all.
The requirements were stated before invites, the rogue did not meet the requirements, why does he deserve the loot?

/1>lfm dps for VoA minimum required 1600 dps
rogue 1>I can pull 1500 is that enough?
rogue 2>I can pull 1600 easy (but knows he can't)
to rogue 1>sorry, got someone else.

rogue 2 gets invited does 1300 dps and gets loot.
rogue 1 has just been shafted out of loot by allowing opportunism.

While I would have done it different: requirements were set up front, you kill the Boss but the rogue for whatever reason didn't meet the requirements. So why let him get away with it?

Everyone is always whining about dps going heroics in leveling greens expecting free loot, doing lower dps then the tank, and in a raid 1300 is really really low for a dps, you could do that by autoattacking, and now a dps doesn't meet requirements stated clearly before the raid and everyone is like: no no, he deserved loot he was at the kill.
Fact is, the rogue performed awfully at the kill, didn't give what he was supposed to and what the raidleader asked for before inviting, so why did he deserve loot?

This is a big signal to said rogue to get his act together and learn to play.

morelore
01-22-2009, 10:07 AM
For the exact same reason you wouldn't refuse loot to a tank who only avoided 30% of attacks instead of 50%, or who took 250k damage instead of 200k.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 10:16 AM
For the exact same reason you wouldn't refuse loot to a tank who only avoided 30% of attacks instead of 50%, or who took 250k damage instead of 200k.
Depends if I ask for a tank which does. OP asked for 1600 dps, rogue didn't deliver. Assuming the rogue knows his dps, (which we ofcourse don't know) he put the success of the raid at jeopardy by thinking:"well I might not have enough, but surely someone will make up for my lack of dps". That is not the kind of attitude to reward with epics.

xKhellendrosx
01-22-2009, 10:19 AM
If I recall VoA has never really been a melee friendly fight with all the running around he does, the poison clouds and such that melee should be trying to avoid. Also was this dps requirement an overall requirement or a boss only requirement? I've done several 25 VoA's where we've had about 12-15 people clearing the trash and then everyone else there for the boss. I wouldn't deny the guy a chance at rolling for the loot, however I would have told him next time do not attempt to join raids if you can not put out the required numbers.

Also remember just because its a 25 man raid doesn't mean you need 25 people to actually do it.

morelore
01-22-2009, 10:21 AM
Depends if I ask for a tank which does. OP asked for 1600 dps, rogue didn't deliver. Assuming the rogue knows his dps, (which we ofcourse don't know) he put the success of the raid at jeopardy by thinking:"well I might not have enough, but surely someone will make up for my lack of dps". That is not the kind of attitude to reward with epics.

Doing this to anyone would be a dick move and I'd blacklist anyone who did it. I might never invite the rogue again either, but I would *definitely* never run with the ML.

Ohnoto
01-22-2009, 10:52 AM
rogue 2>I can pull 1600 easy (but knows he can't)

You are speculating that the rogue knew from the start that he could or couldnt do 1600 DPS. I never had Recount until I hit 80, never used it in BC, nor do I even know if it was around in BC, though I do think it was. DPS meters are not everything.

Do not base everything done on DPS meters.

VoA is not a melee friendly fight and with all the moving DPS meters are often different from one person to another.

Even if he did 1300 DPS, thats still 1300 DPS more than if he wasnt there. Down right, deserves the loot.

Sunderhorn
01-22-2009, 11:46 AM
I'm going to have to agree that the OP did the right thing, because he specifically asked for 1600+ DPS. I'm also going to say that it was his raid, and therefore his perogative. Some people obviously feel that it was neither his right nor the right thing to do.

I understand the opposing viewpoint, but it is a slippery slope. What if the rogue in question had only done 1000 dps? 500? If he had been afk the whole time? Everyone's going to draw the line in a different place.

That being said, the nature of the game can require you to a be more lenient/tolerant of other people's character than you might otherwise be. You never know when you'll need to recruit again or fill out the few empty slots in a raid...

Heisenberg
01-22-2009, 11:50 AM
Doing this to anyone would be a dick move and I'd blacklist anyone who did it. I might never invite the rogue again either, but I would *definitely* never run with the ML.

This.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 03:00 PM
You are speculating that the rogue knew from the start that he could or couldnt do 1600 DPS. I never had Recount until I hit 80, never used it in BC, nor do I even know if it was around in BC, though I do think it was. DPS meters are not everything.

Do not base everything done on DPS meters.

VoA is not a melee friendly fight and with all the moving DPS meters are often different from one person to another.
Well, if you don't know what dps is how can you join when they ask for 1600 dps? DPS meters aren't everything...........but if you're joining a group and the requirement for joining is: 1600 dps then obviously on that fight in that raid dps meters DO matter.


Even if he did 1300 DPS, thats still 1300 DPS more than if he wasnt there. Down right, deserves the loot.That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps.

Lizana
01-22-2009, 03:11 PM
If the boss is killed and the person helped, they deserve a shot at the loot. Now if the raid leader said at the start " Anyone that doesnt do 1600 dps will not get to roll for any loot, thats a different issue, but thats not the case here. I am sure that rouge can do 1600 dps on a tank and spank fight. You cannot expect some one to meet up to an imaginary goal you have set in your head unless you tell them of that. If your that concerned with your dps, make everyone go fight a dummy for 10 minutes before the fight and calculate their sustained dps then. To me that would be like telling a tank, if you lose agro you wont get a shot at any loot. Sometimes things out of our control happen.

Lizana
01-22-2009, 03:12 PM
That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps.

The boss still died,

Thymoleon
01-22-2009, 03:16 PM
I'm glad to see that the thread is getting lively.
So let me precise better the circumstances: after having told that rogue my decision, and before sorting the loot, he just said that everyone in there should have a chance the roll, that he had anyway contributed.. so nothing like "was lagging like hell" or "didnt know my dps". After that I discovered he's a good player because he contacted me with his main, which I already knew. So, ex eventum, he knew his dps. So, ex eventum too, he just consciously lied to me.
It isn't absolutly anything criminal, also because WoW is a game and should be taken lightly. In real life, I'd always behave like I did. But in a game.. I think things like that arent that serious. Definitely I'll let everyone roll in the future, except extreme cases.
Because of quiet gamelife too. As I said, he started insulting me, then he called a friend of his to insult me. This friend told me that what I did was against terms of use, and his brother was GM and he would suspend my account, as if I didn't know GMs cannot interfere in such things and terms of use are something else. But this just to make you laugh a little, cause they probably were just kids.

One last thing.. what if I were one of the rogues which did awesome dps, and then I watched the loot won my a mate who did crap dps? Maybe I would have argued with the ML... so no quiet gamelife at all.

orcstar
01-22-2009, 03:30 PM
If the boss is killed and the person helped, they deserve a shot at the loot. Now if the raid leader said at the start " Anyone that doesnt do 1600 dps will not get to roll for any loot, thats a different issue, but thats not the case here. I am sure that rouge can do 1600 dps on a tank and spank fight. You cannot expect some one to meet up to an imaginary goal you have set in your head unless you tell them of that. If your that concerned with your dps, make everyone go fight a dummy for 10 minutes before the fight and calculate their sustained dps then. To me that would be like telling a tank, if you lose agro you wont get a shot at any loot. Sometimes things out of our control happen.
There was no imaginary goal, it was clear to the rogue that he was invited because he could do 1600 dps.

It's like a deal: "Hey can I join your raid?" RL:"Well sure you can, there's only 1 restriction: you need to be able to do 1600 dps".
An agreement was made.
The rogue didn't do 1600 dps thereby not providing his part of the deal, why should the raidleader be kept to hold up his part of the deal (distributing loot to him)?

Lizana
01-22-2009, 03:44 PM
There was no imaginary goal, it was clear to the rogue that he was invited because he could do 1600 dps.

It's like a deal: "Hey can I join your raid?" RL:"Well sure you can, there's only 1 restriction: you need to be able to do 1600 dps".
An agreement was made.
The rogue didn't do 1600 dps thereby not providing his part of the deal, why should the raidleader be kept to hold up his part of the deal (distributing loot to him)?

Unless you said you have to do 1600 to be able to roll loot you withheld information. Therefore you were not upfront and honest, therefore any "deal" is void. You were wrong for not giving full disclosure before the deal was agreed on.

Paramount
01-22-2009, 04:06 PM
Somthing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the human aspect of this.

Yes you set a standard.
But people are people.

How often have you set a standard for someone in real life? Has everyone lived up to your standards?

Luck is luck. Maybe he just was not critting as much as usual.
That coupled with the fact that melee have to move out of crap in vault, you could expect a drop in dps anyways.

This rogue was another person. This person spent just as much time as you did in the instance and you are depriving him or her of the only possible rewards based on damage meters which may or may not be accurate....

Yeah...bad move I think. But if you want to be strict, make people angry, and possibly hurt your reputation, be my guest.

Rosenfel
01-22-2009, 04:10 PM
He'll never reach 1600 if he doesn't get an opportunity to better himself. Obviously you do draw the line somewhere, but let's be very serious a minute.

A pug'd Archevon really doesn't classify as a raid that has to have such strict limitations. If this was a guild run that had basic standards and objective rules, then you'd have a serious argument. But a pug? You can't honestly let yourself think that incorporating so much structure makes you a just person who weilded the hand of righteous - all you did was give yourself a bad name, not just among those looking for a chance to do better, but those who are better damage than that Rogue, who look down on such unfair actions.

It's hard to define "fairness" but I can't help but think that those that consider the OP's actions to be right are a select group of people that have done something like this and are looking for some kind of justification for themselves.

Niian
01-22-2009, 04:24 PM
Ego trippin.

Oh noes not 300 dps missing.
Boss is dead, he helped, thus he deserves a shot at loot.
How the fuck are people meant to do the DPS if people like you have stupid egotistical rules stating "you must do X DPS otherwise you don't get loot".

Are you on Frostmourne? If so please let me know your char name so I can put you on my ignore list.

Skinzenbonz
01-22-2009, 04:36 PM
Unless you state it up front, you are in the wrong.

Maybe he was at 1600 DPS under normal circumstances. There are plenty of reasons for someone losing 300 DPS. Maybe there was a lot of melee and he spent time dodging spikes or maybe he was avoiding the clouds. Standing the cloud just to get a little more DPS isn't smart. If 1600 DPS is his max then even a little disruption will drop him a fair ways.

It isn't right to have limits imposed after the fact. Were the healers and tanks subjected to the same scrutiny?

Tatt
01-22-2009, 04:40 PM
While not making a definite decision on which way the loot issue should go (personally I am a dick and would have done the same as the OP) I think the whole "Maybe he does not have recount and doesn't know his dps" thing is utter crap. A..if he does not know his dps, don't respond to someone requesting a specific number. That's like saying its not a tanks fault if he wipes the raid because he only has 500 defense, and his excuse is "I didn't know". People have to take personal responsibility for their performance and abilities. I personally have told people any liabilities I have when volunteering for a pug..."Hey these are my stats but you will need to explain the fights to me" etc....also loot problems happen in pugs all the time, this seems much less severe than some we have all seen...how about the RL of the pug who decides that because he organized it he gets the 22 slot bag, or the bag of gems (Magtheridon)......RL decides the rules, everyone knows that, if the rogue doesn't like it, don't come back.

Lizana
01-22-2009, 05:09 PM
RL decides the rules, everyone knows that, if the rogue doesn't like it, don't come back.

Yes and when the raid leader makes up BS like you dont get loot becuase my dps meter says you didnt do this AFTER the boss is already killed thats a bad leader. If the rule had been stated before hand okay, if its made up after the boss is killed, thats bs

orcstar
01-22-2009, 05:27 PM
If you lower your standards, next time he makes a raid the good people are gona think: he lets in people that don't perform, maybe he's boosting his poorly geared/skilled friends over our backs and don't wanne come.
And bad geared/skilled players see your raid as free loot without effort and try to get in claiming HEY I can dps lemme in.

You end up with a raid not getting loot at all.

Tatt
01-22-2009, 05:57 PM
Liz I know you hate it when I call you a hypocrite, but I have seen you be absolutely ruthless to people on these threads about their gear and specs....and now you are defending a rogue who probably got outdamaged by the tanks? I have to agree with Orcstar here, if their are no repercussions for pugs to show up and float through a raid (remember this isn't just an instance or even a heroic, people only get to do this 1 time a week) then that hurts that RL and other's ability to get pugs together, because everyone goes "Why bother when all I am going to do is pick up slack for others?"

Armstrong
01-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Liz I know you hate it when I call you a hypocrite

Please don't make personal attacks. Either state your opinion, provide constructive input or don't post.

Saturday
01-22-2009, 06:21 PM
Well, if you don't know what dps is how can you join when they ask for 1600 dps? DPS meters aren't everything...........but if you're joining a group and the requirement for joining is: 1600 dps then obviously on that fight in that raid dps meters DO matter.
That's flawed reasoning, he's taking up a spot someone else could have used to do higher dps. Hi, I can do 2000 DPS as a tank if I have the ideal group set up, that being I get a bloodlust and have a bunch of melee buffs and the boss going down as quickly as possible. Take away all the ideal conditions, and suddenly I'm doing a whole lot less DPS.

Now if I was asked "Can you do 1600 DPS?" I can honestly say "Yes I can". Can I do it in a raid where I don't know what other classes/specs are going to be there IN ADDITION to a fight where you may have to stay away from everybody else? No.

This is one of those cases where the OP was in the wrong. Even assuming the rogue couldn't have been able to pull it off in ideal situations, not letting someone roll AFTER the fact not withstanding the stupid DPS question.

Lizana
01-22-2009, 06:37 PM
Liz I know you hate it when I call you a hypocrite, but I have seen you be absolutely ruthless to people on these threads about their gear and specs....and now you are defending a rogue who probably got outdamaged by the tanks? I have to agree with Orcstar here, if their are no repercussions for pugs to show up and float through a raid (remember this isn't just an instance or even a heroic, people only get to do this 1 time a week) then that hurts that RL and other's ability to get pugs together, because everyone goes "Why bother when all I am going to do is pick up slack for others?"

Tat, i would have no problem with the Leader setting up such a rule before the raid starts, but after the boss is down to start making up rules, thats something i hate worse than undergeared people that just put points in trees because they look pretty :[

Tatt
01-22-2009, 06:48 PM
Ok first off Armstrong says I am a meanie head so I am sorry >.< Please remember the circumstances and the extremes here....a rogue in quest blues and greens on autoattack afk can do 1300 dps...movement of the boss means nothing because he is being compared to other players of his exact same class....this is a HEROIC raid....if you aren't ready for it do not lie and say you are. Allowing him to roll on that loot is a slap in the face to the rogues who came and did their job.

Lizana
01-22-2009, 07:00 PM
Another thing the OP hasnt said was that overall dps or just dps for the boss fight?

coermaster
01-22-2009, 07:52 PM
OK any dps requirement in order to get loot will in the long run make you fail.. I'll give an Example. You have a 1600 dps requirement. my Shaman can do that easy. Your heals get hit or I get off a few chain heals we win.. Did I not do my job? I played to the best of my ability and saved 2 dps at the expense of my dps, overall more dps over the long run. You would not give me loot, or even the chance at it. My guess is this is Probably why your pugging in people in the first place.
just a thought ...
core

Warwench
01-22-2009, 08:02 PM
1300 DPS is a lazy rogue. If its their gear, then they can fix it, if its their spec, then they can fix it, if its their rotation.. they can fix it.

what ever it is, it's their fault and they are lazy.

no loot for you lazy rogue!

Murdog
01-23-2009, 06:14 AM
Lol my freshly dinged DK was doing 1600+, bad DPS is bad i say tough luck for the rogue (yes im an asshole) your runm, your rules. You set the bar at the start weather or not that was the minimum to be elidgable for loot, maybe the rogue will think/read up on his class and learn what todo next time.

Thymoleon
01-23-2009, 07:28 AM
Another thing the OP hasnt said was that overall dps or just dps for the boss fight?

Let me precise again a few things (or say them for the first time if I hadn't):
1. 1300 dps was for the boss fight
2. It wasn't my recount bugged because I asked someone else to check theirs.
3. He didnt say something like "soz the phone rang", "wasnt critting as usual", "was lagging", "didnt know my dps"... he didnt even say "I know mate, i'm sorry bout that, but I really wanted to join this". I just said "i'm in here and so I deserve to roll".
4. After that I came to know his main's name, which I already knew as a good player, so no chances at all he didn't know his dps. He deliberalty "lied" to me.
5. The raid wasn't lacking of any classes.. more then one enhancement shammy and all the rest was there.

Ohnoto
01-23-2009, 07:47 AM
You seem to have started adding more information and seem much more knowledgable about the fight then you first led on. Especially for someone that is not an expert raider.



i'd like to know the opinion of some of you, since i'm no expert raider.
Thanks

Alot of this info would have been nice if stated from the beginning, but as you had it stated from then it sounds like you asked for more to join your PUG 25 VoA, knew from outside sources that you needed 1600 DPS to kill the guy in time, and refused to let the guy roll after seeing he was slightly less than others.

3 Rogue items dropped for 4 rogues, I understand you not wanting the least DPS roll, but I still don't think its fair and there really is not much that can convince me otherwise. The only way that this would be fair is if you had said at the beginning of the raid. "If you do not substain 1600 DPS on the boss, you will not be eligible for loot"

Anytime I PUG people I use WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com/) to see what they can handle, and yes, I do turn away people that do not fit within the range that it states. Over time I have built up a reputation of doing good 25 PUGs because of this.

Akeber
01-23-2009, 08:18 AM
Rules for a raid, stated up front by the RL, are the rules for the raid. They may be trivial, silly, or downright moronic. If you disagree with the rules, all you have to do is leave the group. I've also heard of vault pugs where the rule for DPSers is, if you don't out DPS the tank, you don't get to roll.

There are countless threads on this forum complaining about bad PUG DPSers. 1600 dps is a VERY low standard for any DPS class, one that should easily be attainable in a few quest reward and dungeon blues. If you really think this guy deserves to roll, I hope you get him, times three, and their equally competent healer friend for your next pug heroic, that should be a fun couple of hours.

Tatt
01-23-2009, 08:25 AM
Coermaster - your example does not work because a rogue cannot do anything other than dps....I dunno maybe he had to kick more often than normal, blah....but he had no reason to be that low on dps other than performing badly.

Lizana
01-23-2009, 08:36 AM
Rules for a raid, stated up front by the RL, are the rules for the raid. They may be trivial, silly, or downright moronic. If you disagree with the rules, all you have to do is leave the group. I've also heard of vault pugs where the rule for DPSers is, if you don't out DPS the tank, you don't get to roll


Yes and i agree, but the rules were not stated at the start, they were made up after the boss was killed. Thats like me inviting you to my pug raid and after the boss was killed me saying, i am sorry you didnt do /chicken 100 times followed by 3 /dance and 2 /wave so you dont get any loot. Making up rules after the boss is downed about who is getting loot is wrong. If the OP had said at the start, then more power to him, but he didnt. And saying LF DPS 1600+ isnt the same as saying if you dont do 1600 dps you wont get to roll on loot.

Another example would be cider going and banning everyone from tankspot because their last post didnt contain the words "Blessed by the Marmot", no one knew that had to be done to keep their account so the action done in "punishment" is invalid due to it not being stated and agreed upon at the start

Tatt
01-23-2009, 08:38 AM
Not really, because it does not say anywhere that he only wants people to post who finish their posts that way. The OP clearly said 1600 dps....if a person can ignore that person's request, why should the OP have to honor loot potential?

Shortypop
01-23-2009, 08:53 AM
Interesting discussion, I sit in the "rules are made and said at the start and should be kept to at all times regardless" camp. If the OP had said 3k dps, and the rogue had only managed 2.5k and wasn't allowed to roll would those agreeing with the OP still be?

I find it interesting people recommend to tanks here if they are having problems getting pugs to stack a stamina set and change during the trash after a pug wont notice they've dropped below **insert random number here**k hp. Is this any difference to a rogue saying yes he can do 1.6k dps (if he's fully buffed and got heroism up for 30seconds- or something) and thinking "if its a pug they dont need everyone doing 1.6k anyway so my low dps won't make them fail"?

Without knowing the rogue in questions thoughts and reasons for joining (ie. if he knew he couldnt do the dps required). Sure maybe he should have said "I'm not sure I can do 1.6k but I'm an alt, I know the fight, and will give it my all" - would you still have taken him? Would you have given him loot under those circumstances?

A wise person once said that all loot rules are unfair, but the important thing is the RULES are unfair not the ML/RL.

Edit: For me its the lesser of two evils, while some people in the raid probably thought - yep that's fair his dps was really low, I can guarentee if I was there I would have been thinking - what's to stop this guy refusing to give loot to any healer if anyone dies; or suddenly making up other rules when it suits him and I definitely wouldn't pug with you again. Yes random rolls are unfair, one or more of the four rogues would have walked away with nothing, but they would have been cross with Blizzards Random number generator -rather than with you or by association your guild.

Calintara
01-23-2009, 09:02 AM
My opinion is that the stage was not correctly set. The RL did specify a DPS requirement but did not specify the penalty for not meeting that requirement. People do go to raids for a good time, at least i do, but many more are there to get 'paid'. When it comes to a raid you should never leave these things unclear, you should not have assumptions. In a guild environment I can easily hold people accountable or we can have an unwritten 'policy', aka guild practice, to fall back on. When it comes to a PUG it is the RLs responsibility to take a few extra minutes to get all the raid on the same page.

We were not there for the fight so we do not know all the details. I do not see a WWS in the thread so we cannot go back and find out if the rogue in question got "picked on" by boss abilities. Kind of similar to Grob or Maex when the same dude gets Mutated or webbed 4 times in a row. There are too many variables and the RL set the stage poorly. The Rogue may completely suck or maybe he did overstate his DPS or maybe the boss targeted him alot. Personally, I think it is all irrelavent because the guidelines were not set and assumptions were made without full disclosure to the raid members.

It is a loophole for poor DPS but you can save a ton of drama by being up front and clearly stating your requirements. For those that like to keep the penalties hidden i would encourage you not to. Reacting ad-hoc to a situation in a raid only looks like a cry-baby move. I would rather train the behavior then make myself look, or act like an erratic RL that may call the raid if someone steps on the wrong tile.

Communication was the issue on both sides here, is the point of all these words.

Ohnoto
01-23-2009, 09:31 AM
The RL did specify a DPS requirement but did not specify the penalty for not meeting that requirement.

From what I can gather the RL did "/2 LFM 25 Man VoA, 1600 DPS+, PST"

Stating what you are looking for does not mean that if you don't get that it eliminates them from looting.

There have been some VoA groups that I have invited someone that I know is not as very well geared, but does know not to stand in the clouds and to move from rock shards, etc. I do this because I know that the gear will help them out more than anything.

Usually it is someone that I have played with in the past who is now getting a 2nd level 80. I will evaulate the group, knowing that we have several that can handle doing around 3000 DPS and I bring him, know that even if he doesn't hit that special 1600 DPS mark, we will be fine.

I did this the other day on a guy that I have played with for a couple years. His main is now a DK and his shaman reached 80 recently and is not very well geared. I brought him and he was our only Shaman (Resto). We had a shaman piece drop, do I say "Oh, you can't have that because you were lowest on the healing meter" No, I just looted it straight to him without thinking about it.

Piplup
01-23-2009, 10:44 AM
There's nothing wrong with this kind of rule, as long as it is stated before the raid.

Just saying you have to be at 1600+ DPS isn't enough. You have to say "1600+ DPS or you don't get any loot".

Calintara
01-23-2009, 11:21 AM
From what I can gather the RL did "/2 LFM 25 Man VoA, 1600 DPS+, PST"

Stating what you are looking for does not mean that if you don't get that it eliminates them from looting.

Looks like we are saying the same thing. Not sure if you were disagreeing with what you thought I said or misread my statement. Little confused at that portion of your post.

Ohnoto
01-23-2009, 11:25 AM
No, just quoted to expand on it. I aggreed with you

Muffin Man
01-23-2009, 02:08 PM
Edit: For me its the lesser of two evils, while some people in the raid probably thought - yep that's fair his dps was really low, I can guarentee if I was there I would have been thinking - what's to stop this guy refusing to give loot to any healer if anyone dies; or suddenly making up other rules when it suits him and I definitely wouldn't pug with you again. Yes random rolls are unfair, one or more of the four rogues would have walked away with nothing, but they would have been cross with Blizzards Random number generator -rather than with you or by association your guild.

Exactly. That's why we honor the rules that are set ahead of time. So that we're not subject to the whim of ML who may or may not 'do the right thing'. Best intentions... road to hell... blah blah ... right?

What should really be taken away from this is the ML/RL knows next time to be explicit: meet my standards or walk away with nothing.

coermaster
01-26-2009, 01:31 PM
Coermaster - your example does not work because a rogue cannot do anything other than dps....I dunno maybe he had to kick more often than normal, blah....but he had no reason to be that low on dps other than performing badly.

I think this does hold true. I was not their for the raid, so I don't know but have been in many VOA pugs where the tank does not do his/her job moveing the boss out of the AOE. Hell I have seen many raids do this on many bosses and expect the healers to just heal it. In my guild in my raids, If the tank makes a mistake or get a lag spike, that does in no means let dps of anykind off the hook for staying in the aoe, or pulling off a tank. Their are a ton of thing he could have been doing right that would hurt his dps that others may have been doing wrong. It may be diffrent play styles. His more like mine less dps more movement and skill from the raid. Most pugs however use the "gearbash" style of being overgeared and hit him at all costs. I do not do well in raids of this type so i tend not to pug alot.

kolben
01-26-2009, 04:25 PM
Hello guys,
was ML in an Archavon25 run and the following issue occurred:
while forming the group i specified that i needed 1600+ dps (cause that is the average dps required to get him down, i supposed). Eventually there were four rogues in the group. One of them was pulling only 1300 dps.
It happened that three rogue items dropped, and I decided to exclude the rogue who didnt meet the requirements i stated from the loot.
Obviously he started insulting me ect ect, but i didnt care about that.
i'd like to know the opinion of some of you, since i'm no expert raider.
Thanks

Where did you get this idea from? What was 1600 DPS based on?

I personally don't agree with loot distribution based on something like damage meters. To this day (4'ish years of raiding) I haven't seen two people's damage meters read the same thing, they are close to worthless. There are several different ways to view dmg and determine DPS, fight time, trash, etc. etc., it's very subjective. WWS is far better, hopefully you used that and not recount.

If you stated up front that meeting the minimum DPS was required to be eligible for loot, and the person joined the raid then I guess they went in knowing that there was a bar to achieve. If you didn't make that clear up front, I'm afraid I can't agree with the way you handled the loot.

macfeagle
01-27-2009, 11:51 AM
/2 LFM 25m arch 1600+ dps please, if you don't do 1600+ dps on the boss, you can't roll on boss loot.

/2 LFM 25m arch 1600+ dps please.

A world of difference. The first is very clear, the second doesn't state the consequence for failing to meet the cutoff. People would assume they could still roll.

This is probably more trouble than it is worth. Cases where someone dies aren't spelled out, and it might be seen as collusion if someone were denied loot in that case.

kolben
01-27-2009, 12:03 PM
Are you asking that because you need each DPS to put down a minimum of 1600 to beat an enrage timer, or get the achievement?

When it's a requirement to get the job done, then it's pretty cut and dry. Otherwise it's pretty arbitrary and reads like petty elitism/epeen stroking. I wouldn't ever be involved in a raid where someone is denied loot after participating in a boss kill, thats a line I won't cross.

Ohnoto
01-28-2009, 05:39 AM
Are you asking that because you need each DPS to put down a minimum of 1600 to beat an enrage timer, or get the achievement?

To beat the enrage is to get the achievement, at least for the first kill only. There are no extra achievements tied to VoA other than to kill Archavon on 10 man and 25 man.

According to WoWWiki, DPS needs 1600 DPS to kill Archavon before the enrage. Now that there are people geared from Naxxramas you don't really need to worry about one individual persons DPS. Being at 1300 is fine since most players that are geared from Naxxramas are doing about 3000.

In response to one persons past comments, you can not achieve 1300 DPS just by auto attacking.

minrog
01-29-2009, 07:25 AM
Rogues with Warglaives in TBC were hitting 1300 with auto-attacking I believe. Especially when they had that buff from those guys in MH. :P Fury Warriors in BWL were probably doing more than that with auto-attacks as well in Vanilla.

Seriously 1300? I mean that's really bad. That wasn't even good when Gruul was the main pug dungeon.

As for the loot at hand the question really boils down to this. By implementing this rule change you limit your prospective pool of people. Nobody who sucks at DPS is likely to jump in to help you which leaves people who use meters and know they are at 1600+. Actually it probably means 2k+ because they'll be paranoid about getting jacked out of gear due to bad cloud placement or terrible tank TPS. The guys who consistently hit 2k+ and know what they are doing are probably already guilded and have other raid options.

The other factor here is that if you are the RL and ML the agreement is that it's 100% up to you how the loot goes. Give Rogue gear to Mages if you want to. They took the risk beforehand letting you lead them but keep in mind if they don't like the results there will be chatter about it. :P

Damage meters and WWS reports are one of the few ways to get feedback about performance. Recount has been accurate to within 1% of my WWS reports so far when I've compared them both.

Jonamar
01-29-2009, 08:06 AM
I think there were 2 lessons learned here:

1) The OP learned (or hopefully learned) that he needs to be more specific when talking about raid requirements and the consequences of not meeting those requirements.

2) The rogue in question learned to never, ever Pug a raid with the OP again.

I see it as a win/win for both to be honest.

greendragonempire
01-29-2009, 08:16 AM
This is why I hate pugs. And why ultimately most pugs are scrubs at the bottom of the totem pole.

@ The OP: you have the wrong mentality, in fact, if that rogue is pulling 1300dps, and is a good player (by your own admission), he a. needs better gear b. was unlucky during the fight

This is a simple case of ninja looting, and I will actaully not tank for pugs with a ninja masterloot even if it is 9pm on a monday before a reset. It may not come to that with the OP, maybe his server is ass backwards and accepts ninjas. But on my server, i can say with 100% certainty, that any dps requirement is arbitrary. If the boss dies, anyone who was there and contributed by their means will get a shot at loot.

In fact, in our 25mans we will upgrade guildies to t7.5 from blues over somebody with t7 already.

You decide on loot rules BEFORE and AFTER the raid, not during. Kick him before, or don't bring him back after, but don't be a ninja MT please.

other cases of flawed reasoning based on the OPs logic
a. X died 3/4s into the fight, no loot
b. tank taunted too late and 1 healer died, no loot, for healer? or for tank?
c. healers hps was under 1600, no loot

where does this idiocy stop? Keep it simple, don't be a ninja ML and give everyone a shot at loot.
- you'll make more friends
- you wont screw your guild reputation
- there is always more loot in the future, don't be a greedy sob

Dakki
01-29-2009, 03:38 PM
Others have mentioned this somewhat, but it bears repeating... Arch is -not- a training dummy fight.

DPS needs to avoid the poison cloud, even if that means they need to wait a few seconds before re-engaging and proceeding with the beatdown.

DPS needs to be aware of when they're being targeted by rock shards, and move away from other players to minimize damage to the raid, even if that means moving out of melee range.

These are things that will lower your observed DPS. (And no, a lot of meters won't compensate properly for it. My tank generally clocks in about 15% down on Archavon versus a normal tanking situation. Why? Because for 10 seconds out of a minute, I'm picked up and thrown! Ain't doing any damage when that happens, now am I?)

In cases like this, below-theoretical-max DPS is not necessarily a sign of underperforming; if this guy got targeted over and over by shards, and kept it off the pack of melee, then he sacrificed his personal DPS to make the group succeed. That's good stuff! That's worthy behavior. That's -emphatically- not a reason to deny someone loot.

Maybe some of the other rogues were better geared and can do the same stuff and still pump out more DPS, sure. But that's no reason to keep someone from rolling.

huggy77
01-29-2009, 11:07 PM
he was there - he should get a chance to roll (unless he was screwing around) ... If it was a naxx run, you could kick him for not meeting the reqs, but after a few pulls and bosses.

Ohnoto
02-02-2009, 05:32 AM
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Sorry, Blizz doesn't balance based on QQ (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697301234&sid=1&pageNo=4#79)

Read Ghostcrawler's answer to question number 4. The posting is about class balance, but he answers a question reguarding WWS and Recount.