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View Full Version : Patchwerk threat targeting in 25 man?



Agraendal
01-20-2009, 03:18 AM
My guild is just fresh into raiding naxx 25, and in my guild I've taken on responsibility of researching fights and putting together the 25 mans.

Last week we ran 25 naxx and had no problems clearing arachnid and plague, which seems to be a common thread among topics here. however patchwerk wiped us and cleared all of our hard fought momentum. we tried it with 3 tanks, 5 healers, 4 of them geared very well, 1 a fresh 80 in greens. I know from reading other posts that perhaps we A: didn't have enough healers, or B: the fifth in greens wasn't pulling the weight he should've. most likely a combination of the two. our guild has <50 players on at any time of the day, and we tried to get the most people in that we could, we even pugged a few.

Moving forward to my question

I was arguing with another officer in my guild tonight about trying patch again with 4 tanks, and 6 healers. a decently geared one pulling patch, and the other 3 our best geared, taking the strikes. after reading the 25 man strat on wowwiki for patch, I understand the way the strikes land is that he picks the top 3 people with both health AND threat to land the strikes on. the main tank is always the puller of patch until he dies. my theory goes that with three off tanks, he will strike each tank and a healer has enough time to get a full 3 sec cast off and heal the tank back up again before he catches another hatefull. my friend was saying that the threat table doesn't work quiet that way and that a extra tank would be too much and he wouldn't get a strike unless one of the other tanks went down.

we have plenty of dps, well geared dps. 5-10 of us doing a little over 2500 dps per second, with only a few of us in the raid doing less than 2000 on this fight, our problem last week wasn't getting him down before the enrage time, it was our tanks were dying.

to that end wouldn't that extra tank be helpful?

Rusty
01-20-2009, 04:21 AM
Your friend is right, Patch will only HS number 2 and 3 on his aggro list.
You'd also be forcing your dps to hold back so the last tank remained above them on the aggro table.

Glok
01-20-2009, 04:27 AM
You dont need more than 3 tanks.

But you may need that 6th healer by the sounds of it.

Bears make nice hateful soakers as a geared one can take 2 in a row and live. But this is definately not a necessity. Also - have your best geared tanks OT. The OTs will cop alot more damage than the MT in this fight.

Erja
01-20-2009, 07:18 AM
I've heard a number of people wrongfully assert for both 10 and 25-man Naxx that the MT will always be whoever initally pulls aggro on Patchwerk. This is incorrect. An OT who is not paying attention and who passes the MT on threat (not hard to do in a max rage situation) will become the new MT, causing the oft-lesser geared MT to start taking hatefuls and potentially wipe the raid (I know, because I've done it before hehe).

Agraendal
01-20-2009, 08:53 PM
kk, ty for the info all.

Bluntfist
01-21-2009, 07:11 AM
What you must know about Patches is this... He will attack the Main Tank, and hateful the target with the highest HP who is close in threat. Therefor TECHNICALLY you only need 2 tanks. However, once the hateful tank's HP drops below the 3rd person in threat's HP, that 3rd person will take hatefuls till the original Hateful tank's HP is back above the 3rd person's.

So what helps is having a shammy or priest proc their armor bonus on the hateful tanks, Focus heals on the first hateful tank, dont over heal.

TitaniumGene
01-21-2009, 06:20 PM
Heroic patchwerk is one of those bosses that are extremely annoying. My guild spent two days on patchwerk because we just couldn't get the healing down. We were finally able to do it with 4 tanks with similar gear to the pieces I have on right now (WoW Armory). You have to make sure healers keep the tanks topped off at all times because you do not want patchwerk to start killing dps.

Vart
01-22-2009, 03:18 AM
There is only 3 tanks need.
Our melee group ( rogues, warriors etc. ) removes from themselves stamina buffs, and during fight come into a pool ( something about -80% HP debuff )
and btw dont heal melee group :)

Shifty
01-22-2009, 03:31 AM
Your friend is right, Patch will only HS number 2 and 3 on his aggro list.
You'd also be forcing your dps to hold back so the last tank remained above them on the aggro table.

2-3 tanks are needed.

the one with most avoidness but still lower hp than ur other tank(s)
MT Patchwerk

Patchwerk will do hatefull strikes to the targets with most hp (Off-tanks)
if healers can keep spam healing tanks u easily kill him before enrage (5mins)


my guild do it with 2 resto shammys and 1 ele shammy for mana totem and mana tide.
but also get an paladin they never get low on mana (:

Shifty
01-22-2009, 03:33 AM
we have plenty of dps, well geared dps. 5-10 of us doing a little over 2500 dps per second, with only a few of us in the raid doing less than 2000 on this fight, our problem last week wasn't getting him down before the enrage time, it was our tanks were dying.

to that end wouldn't that extra tank be helpful?

at this boss also u want as many ranged dps as you can get since melee have to go to the water to get hp

Krete
01-22-2009, 08:26 AM
Stop dipping in the slime (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f126/44003-yet-another-25-man-patchwerk-thread.html#post159626)

There are a lot of threads on Patch25 already, standing in the slime means you don't understand the mechanic of the Hateful Strike. As long as your OT's are #2 and #3 on threat and your MT is #1, your melee will never take a hateful strike no matter how much higher thier HP is compared to the tanks. The only way they will take a hateful is if they are #2 or #3 on threat AND have the most HP.

Giggitygigs
01-22-2009, 09:30 AM
Do NOT have your DPS step into the slime this will cause problems with heals like CoH, PoM, Chain heal, etc. as it will waste their "Charges" on DPS that will never need healing. We use a 2 tank strat, me(warrior) as MT, and feral druid as the hateful tank as he mitigates the damage far better than I ever could.

Vapes
01-23-2009, 10:31 AM
Just to reiterate the whole "Don't step in the slime" consider if you're trying it with 2 tanks. If your melee turn off fort it's probably rare one is going to have more than 22k HP, which is about how much Patch can potentially hit a tank for.

Basically if a melee gets hit it means the tank wasn't healed up fast enough. If a melee dies, it means that tank would have died if the melee had lower HP. Obviously it's a problem you'd want to fix in the future but it's far better for that melee to die than your tank.

IMO, if you have a couple pallies and 3 tanks, just beacon the 3rd tank and just let beacons/chain heals get him back up and focus on your primary OT. The 3rd tank is just there for that "didn't heal fast enough" which shouldn't happen very often, so the beacons and chains should keep #3 topped off before the next 'woops' unless your healers are trying to heal him specifically.

What seems to happen a lot is that tank #3 takes that hit and heals switch over to him, because that's what heals are used to doing, reacting to damage, if they didn't, they wouldn't be good healers. So when they switch, #2 doesn't get healed up fast enough, and #3 takes another, and things just go to heck. It's easier if you just consider #3 to be a buffer that's used for the once every minute or two lapse in heals (5 go off at the same time, and then there's a gap while 2 hatefuls come).

Shifty
01-26-2009, 03:01 AM
Stop dipping in the slime (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f126/44003-yet-another-25-man-patchwerk-thread.html#post159626)

There are a lot of threads on Patch25 already, standing in the slime means you don't understand the mechanic of the Hateful Strike. As long as your OT's are #2 and #3 on threat and your MT is #1, your melee will never take a hateful strike no matter how much higher thier HP is compared to the tanks. The only way they will take a hateful is if they are #2 or #3 on threat AND have the most HP.

if u play with 2 tanks the third highest threat will gain Hatefull strikes.

Giggitygigs
01-26-2009, 07:04 AM
if u play with 2 tanks the third highest threat will gain Hatefull strikes. Only if the 3rd highest threat has more HP than the tank at any given point(e.g. heals slip)

Xav
01-26-2009, 07:12 AM
The only time melee dps should worry about their health and do stuff like click off fort, is if you're using 2 tanks total. One main tank, and one hateful soaker. One of our raids runs this way, (we run 2 25 man raids a week), with me main tanking, and our feral druid eating hatefuls. Our feral is at something like 48k HP raid buffed while wearing appropriate gear, and is basically armor capped when ancestral fortitude is up. This means hateful strikes hit him for 17k, meaning he can take two in a row no problem, even eating two in a row will make him still have the most health for the third.

However, since we're only using one hateful tank, the melee being as low on HP as possible will ensure the druid offtank still gets hit; because even if the druid was down to a mere 18k HP, he'd be able to live through a hateful strike.

If you're using 2 (or more) hateful strike tanks, your melee dps dipping in the slime or taking off fort and such will do next to nothing.