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Darlene
01-19-2009, 06:08 AM
So Im curious if Last Laugh is actually the best weapon in the game for me to tank with... being an Axe and I am human, so my expertise racial stems from Swords & Maces. Is the stats on Last Laugh good enough to lose that racial?

Doncan
01-19-2009, 06:33 AM
Yes, Last Laugh is without a doubt the best tanking weapon in the game for all warriors atm. Broken Promise is a close second if you're deep wounds spec but that will likely change whenever they decide to implement the DW nerf/change they've been hinting at.

veneretio
01-19-2009, 06:41 AM
Broken Promise is a close second if you're deep wounds spec but that will likely change whenever they decide to implement the DW nerf/change they've been hinting at.
Fast weapons are still superior to slow ones even if you're deep wounds spec due to Heroic Strike and, yes Last Laugh is the humans best weapon.

Darlene
01-19-2009, 06:48 AM
Thanks :)

Doncan
01-19-2009, 07:19 AM
Fast weapons are still superior to slow ones even if you're deep wounds spec due to Heroic Strike and, yes Last Laugh is the humans best weapon.

Aye, thats why I said a close second, last laugh will always be surperior but -and I haven't tested this myself- I would assume Broken Promise would be a better tanking weapon than Red Sword or Slayer.

Misc
01-20-2009, 04:55 AM
Aye, thats why I said a close second, last laugh will always be surperior but -and I haven't tested this myself- I would assume Broken Promise would be a better tanking weapon than Red Sword or Slayer.
meh, for a warrior I still think red sword of courage is a better tanking weapon than broken promise

Broken promise is really a DK weapon imo

agonis
01-23-2009, 06:00 AM
there's a 28 dps difference in favor of last laugh, but you lose 3 expertise, that's to say 1,5% of your swings and abilities will be nullified (0,75% dodge and 0,75% parry). You will be parried and dodged more on shield slam, revenge, shockwave, cleave, hs.
so, less aggro on that front, i dont see if the 28 dps can cover the racial loss. I dont feel it, correct me if i'm wrong.
You gain 15 stam and 12 strength, aka 24 atp (more with kings) and 6 shieldblock value. And more or less 0,5% avoidance, since def is lower on last laugh.
Oh, i dont like last laugh skin. but that's not a great point.

Personally i left last laugh to my dwark palatank friend yesterday.
Next one that drops will be mine however, and i wont cry if i'll enter ulduar with my red sword.

Scargoth
01-23-2009, 10:20 AM
You can compensate for the human racial with expertise on other pieces of gear and/or gems and enchants. The raw DPS of the weapon itself is harder to come by.

Hengist
01-23-2009, 10:30 AM
You can compensate for the human racial with expertise on other pieces of gear and/or gems and enchants. The raw DPS of the weapon itself is harder to come by.
You can't compensate because you will have to lose something anyway. Last laugh is still best though.

agonis
01-23-2009, 11:38 AM
i cant see why, since most of our abilities is not depending on pure dps. And on my last night wws swing damage is just the 8% on the overall data, meaning on bosses, where you spam hs more, you dont have that great advantage in using last laugh over red sword.
If you are human, that's what i mean.

Scargoth
01-25-2009, 06:21 AM
Ok I'm going to attempt some math here, please correct me if I'm wrong.

(assuming Heroic Strike Rank 13)

Last Laugh:
171.6 DPS * 1.6 speed = 274.56 Avg. damage per hit (base)
274.56 base + 495 HS bonus = 769.56 Avg. damage per HS
769.56 / 1.6 speed = 480.975 Avg. HS spam DPS

Broken Promise:
156.6 DPS * 2.5 speed = 391.5 Avg. damage per hit (base)
391.5 + 495 HS bonus = 886.5 Avg. damage per HS
886.5 / 2.5 speed = 354.6 Avg. HS spam DPS

Net HS DPS increase = 126.375

This is the magic number: 126.375 DPS, the amount of DPS you'd have to make up by combining all other bonus damage factors (human racial expertise, increased Deep Wounds damage from having a higher base Avg. damage per hit, etc.)

Take note also that for each of these weapons the bonus damage you get from Heroic Strike (Rank 13) > 50% of the Avg. damage per HS. That +495 damage is way better than the average damage per hit that these weapons would do for white damage. It is also this bonus damage that makes fast weapons generally perform better for tanks who can afford to spam HS as much as possible.

I'd like to see the math numbers for how much more DPS you get from Deep Wounds using the slower weapon, but I just don't think that it would add up to the 126 DPS difference that is already there for baseline HS spamming with Last Laugh over Broken Promise.

I suspect that at best the Broken Promise's increased Deep Wounds damage plus the human racial expertise might break even with the loss of Heroic Strike bonus damage you'd get by using a faster weapon -- at that point all you have left is the raw DPS built in which is higher on the Last Laugh.

Taelas
01-25-2009, 09:28 AM
You underestimate Deep Wounds, I think.

Remember, Deep Wounds can proc on Damage Shield. It doesn't matter what the size of the actual crit is; the damage is always 48% weapon damage over 6 seconds.

It also stacks, now.

That means Deep Wounds uptime is influenced by at least the following:

-Crit chance
-Thunder Clap/Devastate/Heroic Strike usage (+15% crit)
-Boss attack speed

While there is little doubt that Last Laugh is currently the best tanking weapon in the game regardless of racials (unfortunately for humans, fortunately for orcs), Broken Promise is probably far better than Red Sword of Courage or Slayer of the Lifeless due to stats (Def, hit, Expertise, higher base DPS). While the speed DOES play its part, it's far less important than it used to be.

I know, I'm tanking with a fist weapon atm. :( Damn RSoC!

agonis
01-25-2009, 12:33 PM
i dont agree with the assumption that broken promise is better than red sword, since hs spam also adds aggro. Well, i know the discussion deepwounds vs fast weapon, and i remember someone pointed out that you'd need so many atp to compensate the slower hs that, in the end, fast weapon are still superior.

but my question persists: a part from the higher avoidance and stam of last laugh.. is the increased white dps useful to compensate the loss of expertise for human? i still believe it's not..

last laugh is 226 and the red sword 200, that's a good point.. but i am just talking about the sheer aggro point of view.

Taelas
01-25-2009, 01:07 PM
i dont agree with the assumption that broken promise is better than red sword, since hs spam also adds aggro. Well, i know the discussion deepwounds vs fast weapon, and i remember someone pointed out that you'd need so many atp to compensate the slower hs that, in the end, fast weapon are still superior.

but my question persists: a part from the higher avoidance and stam of last laugh.. is the increased white dps useful to compensate the loss of expertise for human? i still believe it's not..

last laugh is 226 and the red sword 200, that's a good point.. but i am just talking about the sheer aggro point of view.

The difference in DPS between Last Laugh and the Red Sword of Courage is 28.2 (171.6 - 143.4). To get 28 extra DPS, you need 14x28 AP. That's 392 AP.

For 3 Expertise skill, you need ~25 Expertise rating.

392 AP is worth 196 item points. 25 Expertise rating is worth, well, 25.

The Expertise is NOT worth it - you can get it elsewhere. From a pure Expertise-vs-white-damage point of view, you save a whopping 171 item points.

Blackjackal
01-29-2009, 06:32 AM
Ok, so we all agree Last Laugh is the best tanking weapon VS a boss, what about trash though? i dont know about other warriors out there but on trash my threat comes from shock wave and thunderclap, i rarely HS on trash... wouldnt Broken Promise provide more TPS if you play like a noob (aka me)