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View Full Version : Removal of Titanguard, yet addition of runeforge?



Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 05:22 AM
I am writing this as somewhat of a question to the tanks here at Tankspot. We have all surely heard (and been disappointed at) the nerf and than removal of the weapon enchant Titanguard. This originally added 75 stamina to a weapon, than was lowered to 50, and later removed.

I do not understand the reasoning behind removing one thing which would be become a required enchant, yet the addition of something fairly unneccesary which would become required. The runeforge Stoneskin Gargoyle is a new runeforge being added in patch 3.0.8 that is applicable to two handed weapons to ease death knights who have not met 535 or 540 defense skill into tanking heroics and raids.

25 skill translates to roughly 125 defense rating. Given the sheer number of DK tanks who have met the 540 defense requirement already proves that this caliber of forge is unnecessary. With a very high defense trinket available from a regular instance, and two from BC quests, the min was not hard to reach.

For example, two common tanking items found on warriors and paladins before they start raiding:

The Red Sword of Courage- Red Sword of Courage - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37401)
The Titansteel Shield Wall- Titansteel Shield Wall - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42508)

The sword has 38 defense rating, or 7.73 skill at 80, and the shield has 64 rating, or 13.01 skill at 80. This translates to about 20-21 skill combined. These are both fairly high defense items, as they are meant to introduce the player to raid tanking. This almost matches the runeforge, except for 4-5 defense skill and 2% stamina. The difference however, is that the defense on these two items takes up a portion of the item budget, while the runeforge does not, and adds more benefit to boot. With the myriad of defense gems, gear, and enchants available, few tanks will NEED this, but MANY will take it.

Recently, Blizzard removed what they called the end all be all of tank weapon enchants, a 50 stamina to weapon enchant called Titanforge. It was removed because it was said that every tank (barring DKs) would pick it up, and never use anything else. Well, with the incredible use of the Stoneskin Gargoyle runeforge, no DK tank will use anything else because of the burden of gemming and enchanting this removes.

It is possible to argue that why would a tank take 2% stam over a flat 50? For example, say a tank had 1800 stamina, nothing unreasonable for a tank with few raid pieces. if that tank equipped the 2% runeforge, that would add 36 stamina instantly, while allowing him to gem and enchant for threat/dps/survivability much easier. If said tank had 2 gem slots filled with defense gems, with the added runeforge, he can now put in two 24 stam gems, giving him 1848 base stam, than 1884 stamina with the 2% bonus. This is without talents added in.


In summary, why would such a powerful, end all be all, admittedly unnecessary runeforge be added when a much weaker enchant be removed because it would become a required "tank" enchant?

Merko
01-19-2009, 06:13 AM
"We added that sigil and enchant because death knights had difficulty reaching the defense "cap" in part because they don't have shields, ranged weapons or often tanking weapons."

1H gives +def
Shield gives +def, SBV, and (+) random stats (SBR, Hit, Exp, Dodge, Parry, etc..)
Gun gives +def, and (+) random stats (Agi, Hit, Dodge, etc..)

"Had this enchant gone live it would have become THE enchant for nearly all tanks. It would not have been an interesting choice. We would have had to keep introducing higher tiers of the same enchant, or else players would just keep using this version for perpetuity. We put Stamina already on many items. We don't think your weapon needs one as well. I received messages from several tanks for very prominent guilds asking us to please not go forward with this enchant. They understood why it was bad for the game."



- TBH I don't know why even complain about it... Blizzards game so they can really do what they want with it. As a DK did I have any issues reaching 540, No. Did I have to plan out my gear to reach it initially, Yes. The question you have to think about in WotLK is: Is Blizzard catering to A) the min/max raider that learns the ins and outs of the class they are playing; or B) the casual who hits 80 wants to run a heroic that afternoon and fully clear Naxx that night?

As a DK do I think the runeforge necessary, No ... Is it necessary so the more casual population can hit 540, probably.


Does blizzard need to make an interesting enchant for prot to use, Yes ... Was titanguard the answer, No.

Satorri
01-19-2009, 06:50 AM
That's it, really.

The new DK rune is an option. Some people like it, some will use it to counter balance other gear possibilities, or to reach that necessary defense in their early tank gear, others will still favor the Swordshattering/breaking. The point is it is an option, a choice.

They were seeing that if they added Titanguard, many tanks would take that, and never stop taking it. It would be THE enchant for 90% of tanks. They didn't want that. I'm looking forward to what they do come up with.

jettzypher
01-19-2009, 06:51 AM
Does blizzard need to make an interesting enchant for prot to use, Yes ... Was titanguard the answer, No. stands the point that none of the enchants existing right now are "interesting", so it wouldnt have mattered.

i think it was a horrible idea. yes it would have become a staple for all tanks (except DKs), but its not like it hasnt happened before. Crusader was a must for any tank pre-BC (that and the Quel'Serrar). Sure it was a little more flashy instead of a static sta increase, but it was a staple nonetheless and everyone had it. It's no different than every tank ending up with +75/50 sta. which im sure some pallys wouldnt have picked up, and others would have only grabbed it because theres nothing better out yet. does a tank really need 500 or 750 more hp when they already have 31k unbuffed? no, not really....so its not like everyone would pick it up for permanent use. itd become a good intermediate for beginner tanks until they got high enough and didnt need that health boost and could move on to whatever new enchant they come out with.

Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 06:59 AM
It would be THE enchant for 90% of tanks. They didn't want that. I'm looking forward to what they do come up with.

But Stoneskin is going to be the runeforge for 90% of DKs. Even if they reached the 540 without it, why waste itemization, gems, enchants, and especially, gold, when they could get a free 25 skill, AND a 2% bonus to stamina? With that extra skill, they could just stack strength to give them parry, dps, and threat.

loquatious
01-19-2009, 07:24 AM
Just a question do the other DK Runeforges come close in itemization points - are they all this good?

Malkieri
01-19-2009, 07:31 AM
Stoneskin will not become THE runeforge for dk's. As your gear becomes better you won't need it at all. As it is now I'm a dk tank with full 25 man gear and won't be using this runeforge. I haven't gem'd anything for defenseas my gears gotten better nor have I had to in a few weeks (armory is allannah on anvilmar us). 4% parry does grant more than the 3% of stoneskin. I can see myself using it on fights like sarth 3d when I need the stam but even that is situational. Its an entry level chant/runeforge. Same as its always been in the game.

Titanguard would have been a good chant but like they said they would've had to tune all encounters assuming tanks are using it. Not something blizzard wants to do

Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 08:13 AM
Just a question do the other DK Runeforges come close in itemization points - are they all this good?


The only other is 4% parry which is nailed by DR


4% parry does grant more than the 3% of stoneskin.

maybe I am wrong, but it seems like giving up 1% parry for additional dodge and 2% stam is definitely worth it.

Malkieri
01-19-2009, 08:19 AM
The only other is 4% parry which is nailed by DR

This has been proven that it is not nailed by DR at all. Constant bonuses are unaffected while ratings are affected by DR.

Swordshattering is 4% parry all the time; gargoyle works out to ~3% avoidance and 2% stam.

Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 08:29 AM
This has been proven that it is not nailed by DR at all. Constant bonuses are unaffected while ratings are affected by DR.

Swordshattering is 4% parry all the time; gargoyle works out to ~3% avoidance and 2% stam.

So what happens when you hit an avoidance cap? Back to Stoneskin

Muggs
01-19-2009, 08:37 AM
The only other is 4% parry which is nailed by DR

I'm pretty sure the increased defense skill is going to be subject to more DR than the flat 4% parry increase.

Galushi
01-19-2009, 08:41 AM
Avoidance cap? both of the dk enchants are not subject to or count towards diminishing returns, so they are quite good. The 25 Def skill is a great boost for dks just gearing up for tanking, and still quite useful after defense minimum is reached. Technically, its probably worse then the current 4% parry enchant as far as end game is concerned, so why complain about a new runeforge that helps the early tanks the most?

Galushi
01-19-2009, 08:45 AM
And even if the 25 defense skill does get reduced by diminishing returns, that just means dk's will return to 4% parry once they are safely above the crit immune cap. So the 25def skill runeforge is hardly game breaking.

Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 08:51 AM
Avoidance cap? both of the dk enchants are not subject to or count towards diminishing returns, so they are quite good. The 25 Def skill is a great boost for dks just gearing up for tanking, and still quite useful after defense minimum is reached. Technically, its probably worse then the current 4% parry enchant as far as end game is concerned, so why complain about a new runeforge that helps the early tanks the most?

Maybe you all are right, but it still seems better, especially as gear gets better and content gets harder. Having extra avoidance all around and even more health will not hurt.

Lore
01-19-2009, 09:04 AM
Runeforging is a class mechanic of the Death Knight. You may as well be arguing "So they take out Titanguard... but give Prot Pallies a 2% stamina bonus?"

BlazeDale
01-19-2009, 09:04 AM
Complaining occurs because other tank classes are worried that the the new DKs are being given a substantial advantage and people worry that they will be replaced by a more viable tanking class.

Personally I think that complaining is not the way to go. Let the DKs have their buff for the time being and once blizzard figures whether it is OP or not we other tanks can either A, come back in power when it is removed/nerfed or B, look forward to our own buffs.(For the record a buff like that though very nice, isn't going to set DKs appart)

Personally I'm tired of seeing OP classes getting constantly nerfed. I would rather see other classes that are lacking get buffed. All and all it makes the game more fun. People should get out of the mind set that "hey that class is too powerfull" to "man my class is not powerful enough."

Each class needs to be somewhat on par with eachother and at the same time be on par with the different mobs in the environment.

Personally I would like to see pallies with a Heroic Leap ability that would be about the equivilent of the warriors charge. I mean come on they get a Heroic Throw to counter my Avenger's Shield... I wanna be a flying dwarf pally!

Galushi
01-19-2009, 09:07 AM
Maybe you all are right, but it still seems better, especially as gear gets better and content gets harder. Having extra avoidance all around and even more health will not hurt.

Also keep in mind DK's are (or will be) balanced around the fact they are using a DPS itemized 2h'er for tanking. While warriors (and to slightly lesser extent pallies) are getting a ton of defense/stam/avoidance stats on our weapon slots, dk's will not be. You could think of it like this. Warr/pal equip avoidance and enchant for threat. Dk's equip threat and "enchant" for avoidance.

Dagmarr
01-19-2009, 09:43 AM
Also keep in mind DK's are (or will be) balanced around the fact they are using a DPS itemized 2h'er for tanking. While warriors (and to slightly lesser extent pallies) are getting a ton of defense/stam/avoidance stats on our weapon slots, dk's will not be. You could think of it like this. Warr/pal equip avoidance and enchant for threat. Dk's equip threat and "enchant" for avoidance.

The argument can be made they are getting it to help with avoidance, but just like Warriors and Paladins getting block from strength, DKs get parry from strength, so weapons like Death's Bite - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39417) and Armageddon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40343) give huge amounts of parry, and thus avoidance.

And Dwarven,, Avengers Shield is miles ahead of Heroic Throw, but ours is arguably more awesome.

Malkieri
01-19-2009, 09:50 AM
The argument can be made they are getting it to help with avoidance, but just like Warriors and Paladins getting block from strength, DKs get parry from strength, so weapons like Death's Bite - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39417) and Armageddon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40343) give huge amounts of parry, and thus avoidance.

And Dwarven,, Avengers Shield is miles ahead of Heroic Throw, but ours is arguably more awesome.

Huge amounts of parry? They give dks 25 parry rating which is then subject to DR. So at the best it's ~ .5% to parry but really it's ~.3-.4% from 100 str.

The runeforge will be a stepping stone the same as all the blues are that have a ton of defense but nothing else on them. Its not game-changing the way titanguard would be.

Galushi
01-19-2009, 09:51 AM
those both give about 25 parry rating, maybe a little more with talents/kings. Thats a bit less then the straight defense/dodge/parry that all of the warrior/pally weapons, shields, and guns have.

My point was that this defense runeforge makes up for the seriously lack of crit reduction that dk's miss out on by using and being balanced around tanking with a dps 2h'er. Having a complaint about this runeforge, which is most likely dropped in favor for 4% parry once the dk is well above the defense minimum, is kinda pointless.

BlazeDale
01-19-2009, 09:57 AM
I will agree that Avenger's Shield will generate more threat on each target it hits than the heroic throw will on its single target however the point is that you do now have a threat generating ranged attack while pallies are lacking an ability to sprint into the fray and get solid positioning before the rest of the raid joins in the dps.

A fight where this is almost mandatory is Sapph. After your first wipe where he agros as soon as you step foot in the room. Till first flight phase, he is bombarding a the whole raid with blizzard because everyone is all crouded up at the entrance when the darn pally tank couldn't make enough ground before he was settled in his position.

Granted we still get him down... its just anoying.
Plus.... Heroic Leap would just look so awesome.

Lore
01-19-2009, 10:08 AM
A fight where this is almost mandatory is Sapph. After your first wipe where he agros as soon as you step foot in the room. Till first flight phase, he is bombarding a the whole raid with blizzard because everyone is all crouded up at the entrance when the darn pally tank couldn't make enough ground before he was settled in his position.

I don't have that problem at all. I run in, spin him around, and the raid runs out.

Slobash
01-19-2009, 11:43 AM
I don't think the runeforge is an issue, no shield/ranged and no option for a 2H tanking weapon with defense makes it difficult for DKs to hit the cap. But on the other hand as a non-DK ask yourself....if they introduced a weapon enchant that increased your DR by 125 would you use it? Chances are yes...

Main thing I see is that the weapon enchants are still rubbish for tanking. At the moment they're all about threat (something no class has any serious issues with at the moment). The only reasonably 'tankingish' enchants are the old strength enchant and the new agility one. I'd like to see some better options is all

xKhellendrosx
01-19-2009, 11:50 AM
I don't have that problem at all. I run in, spin him around, and the raid runs out.

We just have our tank run forward to grab Saph while the rest of the raid hugs the side and runs to the right. Sort of like back in the day on Onyxia.

Feanorr
01-19-2009, 10:53 PM
But Stoneskin is going to be the runeforge for 90% of DKs.

Not really, cause DK have already a better avoidance Runeforge, the +4% parry one (who is NOT subject to DR; neither is the stoneskin defense by the way).
It will help DK who have not reached the Def cap or DK who have the def cap but because they enchanted/gemmed all or most of their gear with +def (what war and Pal dont need most of the time).
To give you an exemple, I am in full epic, most from raid 10 but a few from raid 25 too; I got the epic def trinket (the +84 one) and yet I am almost fully enchanted/gemmed for def to be at the cap. When I compare to war and pal tank in my guild, who have a stuff a bit inferior, they use almost no +def enchant or gems.


And, you cant compare our runeforge with an enchant; because runeforge is a DK skill and then is suposed to give us an advantage over the normal enchant.
It would be like comparing weapon's DPS enchants with the shaman's windfury "enchant"; of course they are superior, because it's a part of our classes advantages.
WAr and pal have some other advantages, like your 10% reduction damage, with def stance or talents.
And DK have some others too, I wont go into a comparison of all our talents, and skills, but runeforge is one of them, it's cant be compared to an enchant.

DK need this runeforge to be on par with war/pal about the def cap (about the difficulties to reach it); and the runeforge is superior to weapon enchants because it's a class skill.


And you say that DK will be able to stack gems/enchants etc for threat/surviving, like Pal and war already do? at least any war/pal with a good stuff.

Satorri
01-21-2009, 05:08 AM
Indeed, it is a part of a balance. DK's are balanced expressly understanding that we will need (or more would be silly not to take) a 'tanking' rune on our weapon to keep our gear on par.

Before though the tanking runes didn't make up for the lack of defense in 3 major slots (unless we dual wielded tank weapons, which Blizz made patently clear they didn't want to be necessary).

Conley
01-22-2009, 06:31 PM
I don't know, I've got a frost DK buddy with this rune on his 2her. Despite having worse gear in a number of slots, not too mention not having the added bonuses of trade skill to his gear, he now has more stamina than my prot war, more armor and equivalent dodge/parry...maybe shield block is just that amazing, but it seems like in trying to balance the tanking classes, some are getting the short end of the stick for awhile.

Feanorr
01-22-2009, 07:10 PM
From the reports of high gear tanks, if some tanks have the short end of the stick, it's seem to be DK and druid.

I dont see that for the moment, cause I am not really high gear (well full epic, but mostly 10 raid stuff) and the war and pal of my guild are a bit less geared (correct?), but that's what I can read everywhere (here, EJ, mmochamps, etc).


But anyway, I was not comparing war to DK; I was just saying that you cant compare a class skill with an enchant available to everyone.

If you want to compare tank classes, we can try, but it's not the thread (and there is already a few); but if war and pal are quite easy to compare (they work in the same way), DK and druid are far more complicate to compare because they dont use same mechanics.