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View Full Version : Arms/Prot Hybrid Spec - My Findings



Odwome
01-19-2009, 01:06 AM
Here's the spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LArIzf0t00bR0bZbZMItrx00ib)

As one might guess, the main idea of this spec is to spam Revenge with Heroic Strike after Sundering up a mob and throwing on a Rend. With the Heroic Strike Glyphs (free after Revenge, and +10 rage if it crits), I didn't have any rage problems while tanking Heroic UP earlier tonight, and I was #2 in dps throughout the entire instance (averaged around 1350 dps, peaked on single mobs at around 1800 with nice strings of crits). The only problem I had was regarding AoE tanking, since the only real AoE threat move I had was Thunderclap. On large packs, I just rounded them up to one area and spammed Revenge, Cleave and Thunderclap, and I held them fine in most situations.

I just wanted to share my experience with this build, and to get some feedback on it. I'm thinking to throw on the Glyph of Cleaving (the 3.0.8 version, which makes Cleave hit 3 targest instead of 2) instead of the Glyph of Blocking for this build, since that would seriously assist with AoE tanking packs.

Any input on this would be greatly appreciated, as I hope to possibly develop this into some kind of coherent tanking spec (possibly for 10 mans when overgeared and helping out less-geared guildmates).

As you can see on my armory spreadsheet, my avoidance is pretty high (26.68 dodge and 18.28 parry) so with this build, I avoid/block incoming attacks (thus activating revenge) 61.5% of the time (60.3% against mobs that are level 82 [heroics], and 59.7% against lvl 83 mobs [raids]). As for the defense, I can throw on Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292) to get me well over the minimum for 10- and 25-man raids.

All-in-all, this seems to be a much more entertaining and interesting spec for going back and tanking for groups that are doing things that are below your current level of raiding. I'm using most ilvl 200 items with 5 or 6 (depending on the situation) ilvl 213 items, so I suppose this spec would be fine for tanking 10-man naxx once I had mostly ilvl 213 items, possibly even better than a normal prot build when there is no access to blessing of sanctuary.

Let me know what you think about it, I want to hear the opinions of somebody other than myself with this spec.

Astemus
01-19-2009, 07:47 AM
I didn't have any rage problems while tanking Heroic UP earlier tonight, and I was #2 in dps throughout the entire instance (averaged around 1350 dps, peaked on single mobs at around 1800 with nice strings of crits). The only problem I had was regarding AoE tanking, since the only real AoE threat move I had was Thunderclap.

You should be able to get similar numbers as full prot spec, so I'm not sure if your experiment was a total success. However, I would be interested to know what classes you were with. Since you had no issue holding threat with only TC, i'll assume no one was AoE-ing. How about another run as DPS and tell us how your DPS compared?

Overall though, I doubt most people would be respeccing to run lower gear instances, and if they did, I think you'd find you could get similar results from going full arms or fury if you're confident in your gear and skill, for these types of situations.

As far as your spec goes, i would try to not go so far into prot if the intention of this is to try out another tanking style, and perhaps go as far as to get bladestorm. Maybe Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LArIzf0t00bRcfMthZcItb) ? I'm not sure, though. I'm of the opinion that you should go at least 51 in prot, or not at all.

soliduck
01-19-2009, 08:57 AM
I'm not sure, though. I'm of the opinion that you should go at least 51 in prot, or not at all.

Well, Improved Revenge seems pretty mandatory for this kind of spec.
Blade Storm does seem like a pretty cool way to fix the AOE threat issues.

One of the main things that turns me off about these specs is that you don't really gain much DPS utility despite being so deep in Arms. You skip the whole TFB thing and miss out on solid DPS increases like 2h Weapon Spec and low tier Fury. On top of that, your Prot points don't do anything to help you DPS with a 2h.

Odwome
01-19-2009, 11:10 AM
WARNING: WALL OF TEXT




Well, Improved Revenge seems pretty mandatory for this kind of spec.
Blade Storm does seem like a pretty cool way to fix the AOE threat issues.

One of the main things that turns me off about these specs is that you don't really gain much DPS utility despite being so deep in Arms. You skip the whole TFB thing and miss out on solid DPS increases like 2h Weapon Spec and low tier Fury. On top of that, your Prot points don't do anything to help you DPS with a 2h.

Well, the entire point of this spec is to, essentially, just be using Revenge, so it would be pointless to bother with 2handers at all. And as for my Prot talents not helping out with dps, nearly every talent in Prot that I have taken with this build is a serious help to this build:

2/5 Shield Spec - Mainly a filler, but it helps to make sure that Revenge is lit up more often.
3/3 Imp Thunderclap - A necessary choice for any warrior that plans on tanking multiple mobs. Also, the attack speed reduction is great for bosses.
3/3 Incite - An obvious choice, since I am pretty much using Heroic Strike on every swing, due to the low rage cost of my main attack (Revenge), and the two glyphs focused on rage consumption regarding Heroic Strike.
5/5 Anticipation - What tank wouldn't get this?
1/1 Last Stand - The quintessential "Oh ****" button.
2/2 Imp Revenge - Obvious, for the damage increase. Also, the stun proc can keep a mob stunned for a considerable amount of time when you're spamming Revenge.
2/2 Shield Mastery - Since this spec is made for tanking places that you are already considerably overgeared for, having good Block Value is an obvious boon.
5/5 Toughness - What tank wouldn't get this?
2/2 Gag Order - Useful for pulling with Heroic Throw. Also, gives a nice boost to Shield Slam's damage for when Revenge isn't lit up.
5/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization - A 10% damage increase. Nobody in their right mind would skip this if they were using a sword and shield.
2/2 Imp Defensive Stance - Another 10% increase to damage done, along with a decrease of spell damage taken.

So, as you can probably see, all of the talents in the Prot tree are incredibly useful for this build. I simply believe that the talents further down are mainly geared toward making Shield Slam a better ability (higher crit chance with Critical Block, more availibility with Sword and Board).

Of course, Shockwave is sorely missed, as is Damage Shield and Warbringer.

Here's my justification for the talents in the Arms tree:

3/3 Imp Heroic Strike - One of the more relevant talents in the tree. It actually affects something I will be using.
5/5 Deflection - Obvious.
3/3 Imp Rend - I'll be starting the fights in Battle Stance, due to the lack of Warbringer, so hitting Rend right at the start isn't a bad idea. Also, Trauma will boost its damage a good 30%.
2/2 Imp Charge - Filler talent. It helps out with the rage needed at the start of a fight, but it really is not necessary. I only took this because there aren't very many useful early talents for this build.
Iron Will - 100% Filler talent. I can't really think of any other place for these points to go.
3/3 Tactical Mastery - Helpful, since I don't have Warbringer for charging in Defensive Stance. Other than that, I don't really do any stance dancing during fights, so it's kinda pointless.
1/1 Anger Management - More useful than the other early Arms talents. This build doesn't need much rage to work, so the 1 rage every 3 seconds helps to make sure we're not trying to run on empty.
2/2 Impale - Very good talent, for well-known and well-documented reasons.
3/3 Deep Wounds - Another good talent. I won't be getting it to proc on as many targets as a normal prot build would, since I don't have damage shield, but between Thunderclap and Cleave, it should have a decent uptime on the mobs in an AoE pull. Also, is improved by Trauma.
5/5 Poleaxe Specialization - 5% crit and +5% dmg to crits makes this an obvious choice.
1/1 Sweeping Strikes - This would be a fantastic ability if it could just be used in Defensive Stance. A 30 second cooldown on an ability that would drastically increase AoE threat is makes this very useful. I just need to make a macro that switches me to Battle Stance, pops Bloodrage, activates this, and then switches back to Defensive.
2/2 Trauma - Very useful if grouping with any character that uses bleeds. Also, this buffs my own bleed effects (Rend and Deep Wounds) considerably. This is one of the more useful talents in this build.
1/1 Mortal Strike - Honestly, this is a filler. It does such little damage with a one-handed weapon that I never use it. The high rage cost for it makes it completely useless for this build.
2/2 Strength of Arms - A great talent, helps me to cope with the loss of Vitality in the prot tree, though it doesn't completely replace it.
2/2 Unrelenting Assault - The defining talent of this build. It lets me spam Revenge almost constantly for an insane amount of single-target threat, and when coupled with tab-targetting and cleave, a decent amount of multi-target threat.

And the 2 points in Armored to the Teeth are there because I couldn't think of anything else that would be useful in the Prot or Arms trees, and it gives a substantial amount of additional attack power.

@Astemus:

From my personal experience, I never managed to reach that much dps in a 5-man heroic while using the normal 15/5/51 tanking spec that I was using before. This might be because I haven't done many of them lately, since I have started raiding more, but I really don't think I would be able to generate the rage necessary to be able to pump out the raw damage that this spec can do. I never ran out of rage on an pulls in that instance, all the while spamming Heroic Strike and Revenge on single targets, or Cleave, Thunderclap and Revenge on multiple targets. I rarely would be able to use Heroic Strike in heroics in my regular spec, since my avoidance would make it so I really wasn't being hit very often, and thus, not generating very much rage.

The classes I ran this with were a BM hunter, a Blood DK, and a Destro Lock. There was some AoEing, but mainly we just did single target things, but they still dropped very fast.

Honestly though, I don't think my AoE threat generation would really be that much worse than the average spec, because the only AoE abilities I'm losing are Shockwave and Damage Shield. But, you have to remember that Shockwave doesn't have any added threat; its threat is just based on how much damage it does. Also, Damage Shield only does anything if the mob hits you, or you block. With my avoidance, they have less than a 50% chance of being affected by Damage Shield. Assuming a pull of 4 mobs, each with a 2.0 attack speed, that averages out to Damage shield proccing twice every second. I don't know the threat coefficient for Damage Shield, but each proc only does 200-250 dmg, before armor reductions. I don't know the exact numbers of how much threat I'm able to do by tab-targetting and spamming Revenge + Cleave in packs of mobs, but I am fairly certain that the drastically reduced amount of rage I need to generate agro, as compared to a normal Prot build, would allow me to generate as much, if not more, agro on groups around that size (4 mobs or so). With the new Cleave glyph in 3.0.8, I would be almost certain that this spec would outperform a traditional Prot spec in groups around the size of 4 mobs.

Also, while Bladestorm would be a great idea to use on AoE pulls, it simply has too long of a cooldown to be useful in any heroic instance. How often does a pull take an entire 1:30? And what are you supposed to use in the meantime between the pulls for AoE threat?

As for a comparison between the build you posted and mine:

3/3 Imp Mortal Strike - The rage cost is way too high to every justify using it. I would greatly prefer using Shield Slam without any talents affecting it than using Mortal Strike, since the damage it does with a 1hander is abysmal, and the rage cost is so absurdly high.

3/3 Sudden Death - The whole point of this build is for tanking things that you are drastically overgeared for, in situations where you are helping gear up guildmates or friends or whatever. In those situations, your avoidance would not allow you to generate enough rage to justify switching to Battle Stance while tanking to use Execute.

2/2 Blood Frenzy - This is a pretty good talent, since that 6% haste would allow this build to spam Heroic Strike more often. Also, the +2% physical damage would help quite a bit. However, I don't think that would justify dropping 5/5 One-Handed Weapon Spec, for the 10% increase to all damage done.

5/5 Wrecking Crew - Relying on melee crits for enrage, as opposed to avoiding/blocking attacks, makes this clearly inferior to the Improved Defensive Stance talent. Also, this costs 3 additional talent points.

1/1 Bladestorm - As I mentioned earlier, this would be an interesting ability if it had a shorter cooldown, since the wait between pulls is hardly even close to 1:30, so you wouldn't be able to use it on every pull, which means you would need to be good at AoE tanking without it, thus meaning it's not really helping.

I do agree that Armored to the Teeth should be maxxed out, but this build simply does not have room for that, since it would be retarded to drop Unrelenting Assault to 1/2, and reducing Imp Defensive Stance to 1/2 not only drops the proc chance to 50% on a dodge/parry/block, but also reduces the enrage bonus to only 5%.

Also, I do see your point that, if you were planning to tank a place that was significantly lower than where you were, progression-wise, you could just go Arms or Fury and tank with those, but I think this would do even better DPS than one of those specs trying to tank. The only comparable one would be a generic Arms spec that has Unrelenting Assault, but that spec would be missing out on a significant amount of avoidance, the increase to armor through toughness, the increased damage to revenge, the increased crit chance for heroic strike, cleave and thunderclap, the increased damage to thunderclap, the 10% increased damage when using one-handed weapons, and the shorter cooldown for Shield Block. In exchange for all of those things, they wouldn't really get anything that astounding that would help with tanking out-geared instances.

And just as a reference, during AoE pulls where I was spamming Thunderclap, Revenge and Cleave, I was doing around 1800-1900 dps.

I might bring this up with my Guild's leader and see if I can convince him to let me MT a few bosses in 10-man or 25-man Naxx, so I could get some numbers for that.

soliduck
01-22-2009, 08:33 AM
Well, the entire point of this spec is to, essentially, just be using Revenge, so it would be pointless to bother with 2handers at all. And as for my Prot talents not helping out with dps, nearly every talent in Prot that I have taken with this build is a serious help to this build:

Our expectations for this sort of Arms hybrid build like this are probably different.

What I meant was that the spec doesn't really help you DPS outside of tanking.
What would motivate me to switch from prot is a spec that gives me more utility (ie: DPS) outside of a tanking situation. It disappoints me that a UA build like this one seems less useful in that capacity than current Prot Builds.
But that's not really what your post is about.

Sangi
01-22-2009, 09:22 AM
I've been interested doing an arms/prot hybrid recently also. My motivation has been that my guild runs with 3-4 tanks and in most situations 1-2 tanks are needed. My thoughts were that when I was not needed to tank I could switch out to DPS and assist better. I could assist tanking trash and go DPS on bosses that didn't need me to tank.

Before I subjected my raid to this I gave it a try in one of our 10 man Naxx runs. My build was as linked Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVbcbfIt00bRffRthZMIxb) This is more of a DPS build with OT capabilities rather than a heavy prot build with DPS tweaks. As DPS I was geared in a mix of Naxx10/Heroic Epics, heroic blues and a green or two. My stats were sitting at about 2800 AP and 33% crit unbuffed. For tanking I wore my normal base tank set tweaked for a bit more SB to trigger revenge. This gave me about 23.7K armor, 20% dodge, 20% parry and 21% SB with a SBV of about 800 rather than my normal 1000. Glyphs were improved rend, improved execute and shield block. Had the shield block glyph not been 50g on my server I would have switched that to the imp heroic strike.

For tanking it was readily apparent that this was a single target threat set. Attempting to do multi-target TPS with out Shock Wave and Damage Shield was just an exercise in futility. Or at least it felt that way. Maby I have gotten too soft since the 3.0 patch drop with multi target tanking. Whirlwind was not a help here. This was due to the fact that with a 1h weapon you are essentially doing only the equiliant of a white hit on 4 mobs over 6 seconds and that is it. The TPS is very low. In addition the added cooldown means it is not available every pull. The other tank and I eventually settled on a me on first mob he on the rest for trash pulls. This worked rather well as he has a good threat lead established by the time the first mob died.

For boss tanking the rotation is obviously different. With out three of the six core TPS talents things had to be changed up. You additionally have Mortal Strike added to the mix with has a threat boost in defensive stance. I was finding that my rotation was something similar to Shield block immediately to light up revenge. Spam revenge and heroic strike until it was no longer lit up. Then SS followed by Mortal Strike due to their cooldowns being similar. If revenge wasn't up again hit sunder. The threat was very good. I remember a spike in threat to 7K TPS after a chain of crit revenges and HS. (I understand that I would have to prove this and not sure how) I was seeing an increase in my single target TPS of about 1-1.5K.

The main drawbacks that I saw besides not having decent AoE threat was the lack of the Oh Crap buttons. Having no access to last stand or shield wall could have been issues. I do recall reaching for LS once and it not being there but I did not die. These two missing I believe would prevent this from performing any serious tanking duties.

DPS wise this build worked well. As it should, as it is mostly an arms build. I was putting out between 2.2-2.7 DPS on bosses after I started to understand the play style and the flow of attacks of arms in a raid better.

I had fun with it. I am not sure that I would run a 25 man with it. We have quite a bit of melee DPS at the moment and adding another could be problematic. I still need to decide if this would be a net gain for the raid or not.

Dunmail
01-23-2009, 02:02 AM
If you have Imp thunderclap (prot tree) won't the usual, charge, Thunderclap and Shield slam in Defence stance give you more aggro for an initial burst, before letting rip with improved damage abilities from arms?

Sangi
01-23-2009, 09:49 AM
Not when you have TG fury warriors WhirlWinding for 4K+ crits on the OTed mobs.

WarriorTanks
07-10-2009, 05:46 PM
In this spec, you have to place the two talent points into Unrelenting Assault. This decreases revenge's cool down significantly, allowing you to deal a massive burst damage at low rage cost ratio. revenge is also the highest threat to rage ratio attack.

I recommend something like this (there are a couple points you can float around such as the ones in cruelty, spell deflect and last stand): (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=25200300230351002022120102000000010000000 00000000000000000050351225100010520000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=10072)


Hope this helps ;-)