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monomo
01-15-2009, 05:04 AM
Hello, this is my first post here, and I must say, I love this site :D

My Issue is, as stated, I keep dying on Patchwerk, a DK tank, with a little problems on specc, I went pretty deep on Blood, to pick up Veteran of the third war (6% stam, the expertise is yummy), in frost until Unbreakable armor, and 10 points in unholy, the 5% dodge, morbidity, and epidemic.

That said, I will explain the situation. I am MT, with a pally and a druid OT. Healers are 6; a shammy and a priest on me, both decently geared; both got everything (that is meant literally), everything from heroics they can use, along with all enchants, gem, etc. The priest is sitting at around 2400 +heal with raid buffs, that is pretty decent, i would say. DPS is not a problem, got several ppl with 4k+ and everybody has 2k+

We do a hunter pull with MD i do a IT, pull went well, for the first seconds of the fight i pop IF and UA, for if I take melee and Hateful. Then I start a 3 minute rotation. POP lichborne, when over pop seal of the pantheon and Figurine - Monarch Crab, when over Icebound Fortitude, when over Mark of Blood, when over Unbreakable Armor, then keeping the 1 minute cd abilities on rotation leaving about 10 seconds with no activae mitigation each minute. In these 10 seconds I am taking about 11k melee hits and sometimes a hateful, which brings me down to about 20 % hp. If then he has a parry haste I WILL die, no matter what. I do not see any way out of that, except trying over and over, until he has NO parry haste in the 10 unmitigated seconds, which actually can't be the way to go :D


Should I just wait until I get better gear?


Character name Elyyia on realm draenor, us

The armory will show that I have 539 defense; that is wrong, I switched to the t7 gauntlets, and have to socket a different gem there, just deduct 200hp and the entire dodge from this item.
Previously I used Gauntlets of the Water Revenant - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37862)
socketed a 16 defense rating gem (blacksmith)

brought me to 541 defense.

I also have lots of stuff I cannot use yet of naxx25 and naxx10, i cannot use yet, since that will bring me below defcap

Does anybody have any ideas? Am I undergeared for patch 25? All tanks are pretty equally geared except for the druid, who seems to be way better geared (42k hp buffed)

Akeber
01-15-2009, 08:12 AM
If then he has a parry haste I WILL die, no matter what.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but i'm 99.99% sure that patch can't get parry hasted. So that's not really your problem.

IMO, even if the pally is better geared than you, he should be MTing patch while you and the bear soak hatefuls. The pally, with 100% uptime on his shield, is just better suited to take a steady stream of incoming hits than you are.

What's happening is, for most of the time, you're putting your healers to sleep. You're going for long periods avoiding most of the hits, and taking little damage when you do get hit. When those 10 seconds of no active mitigation are coming up, your healers are getting caught off guard. There is already enough spike damage in the hurtful tanks, you are introducing more in a place that there shouldn't be.

If it was my raid, i'd have the pally MT, the bear taking the hatefuls, and you'd be there for anything that happened to spill off the bear.

I'm not saying it's not possible to have you MT and the other two soak the hatefuls, but having the pally MT is going to be easier.

Satrina
01-15-2009, 08:22 AM
Patchwerk does not gain parry haste, that's correct.

Horacio
01-15-2009, 08:32 AM
I think for the most part you just need to run some heroics and increase the overall quality of your gear. As far as who should MT, part of me believes you need to have your best geared tank as your #1 soak but then again, as the soak, you're taking steady damage and until really heavy gear, will only survive 1 hateful without heals before dying.

Hypothetically, you could withstand Patchwerk with your current gear but with better you'd put more margin of error in there.

greendragonempire
01-15-2009, 08:54 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Elyyia)

trinket 2 is a bit weak
relic .. is that a tanking relic . .????
chest is weak at least get the 60 emblem one
lv 76 helm for patch 25 ..??

Labguy23
01-15-2009, 12:34 PM
I off tank Patchwerk and honestly, I would have a problem if they wanted me to MT. I personally feel like a well geared DK is more effective at taking hateful strikes than any other tank type.

When I tank him, my dedicated healer spends more time on the MT than me. Pop your avoidance cooldowns and save IBF should you get a couple HS hits in a row. Healers comment that I am SUPER easy to heal as the OT during PW cause I just don't get hit all that often.

I would be very concerned that I would die like you in between the cooldowns if I was MT.

OThers may feel differently, but that is my 2 cents.

Labguy23
01-15-2009, 12:35 PM
FYI, I do MT some of the other fights in Naxx, just never PW.

monomo
01-15-2009, 04:35 PM
First thanks to your reply!

Well, we have heard - from a video here on tankspot i believe - that the hs tank will take more dmg, but if you say that he doesnt.... ok!
For today, I will suggest OT'ing and letting the pally mt, for he can block, tha hs cannot be blocked I believe. And iI also read that the HS es cant crit can anyone confirm that? Since I was stacking other tank gear in my inventory do not want to use yet, since I will run below defcap.... If they cannot crit anyways then I should rather stack some more dodge/parry and stam.

Heh and about the sigil....... There is not even another sigil, except for the one with +90 dmg on blood/heart strike....., and what else should I use for the Seal of the Pantheon? For now I need the defense, and the use ability is still effected by frost presence and such stuff. If I pop it with unbreakable armor I actually run over the armor cap heh, which is at 75 % mitigation.

I only use the helmet for the defense, and I will replace it with the aTempered Titansteel one, as soon someone confirms that the HS cannot crit.

Again, thank you for your answers

Kyn
01-15-2009, 04:54 PM
In these 10 seconds I am taking about 11k melee hits and sometimes a hateful, which brings me down to about 20 % hp.

Well the underlined part is your problem, you shoud never eat a hateful if your m'ing patchwerk. Check the threat of the other tanks if they pass you at some time during the encounter, if they do tell them to watch their threat.

Blueduck3285
01-15-2009, 04:54 PM
Ok, so if anyone says yours best geared SHOULD MT Patch, they are wrong. You want your best geared and Highest HP to be OT. Hatefulls hurt more than his main hits so its best for your best geared and Highest HP tank to soak that up. The thing is, that if you are taking hatefulls, it means you currently have more HP than your offtank. My suggestion is to only use 2 tanks, one MT and one OT. When I tank patch's, I usually have a bear OT with 50k+ hp.

I would suggest no to keep your CD's up, the thing is, your healers are getting used to you not taking damage and when you hit that 10's, they are prepared. Best if they bubble you at the begining of the fight, seeing as DK's dont need to get hit to generate attacks, and to start pre-heals for when you start getting hit. Your CD's are just that, "Oh shit" buttons that should be used as such. If your having to keep them up then your baby'ing your healers, which can leave them in a rut where they dont have to heal. The reason for only 2 tanks is, its less people to focus on healing. They have to change back and forth between the two off tanks which can get alil stressfull. If there is only 1 OT and 1 MT, that means your heals can better manage their heals and can focus on 1 target instead of swaping... streamlining their heals.

I am not by any means a great tank, but I personally feel you shouldnt be using your CD's just to keep you from gettin hit. With my DK, I want to get hit so it keeps my heals healing, so that when I do dodge or parry and dont get hit, they dont get used to not having to do anything. Decreases the risk for... AH crap he's going down!

Hope yall can get him down.

Blueduck3285
01-15-2009, 07:45 PM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Elyyia)

trinket 2 is a bit weak
relic .. is that a tanking relic . .????
chest is weak at least get the 60 emblem one
lv 76 helm for patch 25 ..??

Btw, that relic is all there is until 3.0.8 so dont comment on things you know nothing about. The only other Relic in the game is a haste one that isnt considered and upgrade for Tanking, until the changes in 3.0.8 IMO.

As for his gear, its actually better than most tanks I see successfully tanking 25 man patch.

Amelmil
01-16-2009, 02:21 AM
ur healers should be doing heals all the time and should not worry about overheals as patchwerk dmg is fast AND high so overhealing is kinda expected. I found that it helps to have all 3 tanks stand in front of him for healers assigned to heal all 3 tanks.

Firstprime
01-16-2009, 03:00 AM
I would suggest no to keep your CD's up, the thing is, your healers are getting used to you not taking damage and when you hit that 10's, they are prepared. Best if they bubble you at the begining of the fight, seeing as DK's dont need to get hit to generate attacks, and to start pre-heals for when you start getting hit. Your CD's are just that, "Oh shit" buttons that should be used as such. If your having to keep them up then your baby'ing your healers, which can leave them in a rut where they dont have to heal.
I don't really see our cds as oh shit buttons like other tanking classes have, because of their short cds I tend to spam them and treat them more like a warriors shield block ability. I've never healed ever but shouldn't healers be constantly casting and cancel the heal if the tank has an avoidance streak so theres always a heal inc? If a healing mechanic has changed to prevent this or if this was never the case and Im an idiot some pls say so.

Also Monomo if you are getting hit by hatefuls you might be dropping down to 2nd on threat. Atm paladins can pump out some serious tps and I noticed with your spec you didnt pick up any of the 41 point strikes. What rotation are you using, w/o frost strike im assuming youre dcing to dump rp? What kind of tps do you average?

thanatas
01-16-2009, 07:47 AM
I see many saying "best" tank here and don't really define what that is... this is one of those fights, as a tank, you should be working on a totally alternate set of gear. A pure avoidence (dodge parry and def4miss).

Therefor your "best" tank for hateful is going to be whoever has the highest pure avoidance. You can't block hatefuls so warrior/pallys must not include this value (its not pure avoidence anyway but I want to spell that out).

My typical boss gear is something around a 20% dodge, 19% parry and 23% shield.

For patch, my hateful gear looks more like 26% dodge, 21%parry and something like 17% shield.

Be sure to keep old gear from 10 mans as you upgrade to 25 gear for fights just like this. Hell I even use my old blue helm because the t7 one has no avoidance on it for this fight.

I also wouldn't worry much about who has the most HP to determine who should MT this fight. Unless you can get above 40k HP (and I think realistically druids are the only ones in PURE avoidance gear), HP doesn't matter because 2 hatefuls will kill you on 25man.

monomo
01-16-2009, 04:41 PM
Unfortunately I did not progress so far in 10man yet. We are doing Gothik, since our Raid Leader does not want to do Patch, so I basically have 1 Piece of Gear to switch, which gives me less def but morre parry/dodge and even Stamina.

My Rotation is usually IT/PS/OB/BS/BS empower OB/OB/BS/BS DC dump
then just IT/PS/OB/BS/BS ; and works a little different in threat. He attacks the Target with most aggro, and any target withing the first 3 (2 in 10) in aggro list is a target for hateful; of those three the target with most hp gets it.

Blueduck3285
01-16-2009, 05:14 PM
I don't really see our cds as oh shit buttons like other tanking classes have, because of their short cds I tend to spam them and treat them more like a warriors shield block ability. I've never healed ever but shouldn't healers be constantly casting and cancel the heal if the tank has an avoidance streak so theres always a heal inc? If a healing mechanic has changed to prevent this or if this was never the case and Im an idiot some pls say so.

Healers should never cancel a heal during this fight, Overhealing is the name of the game with patches. You always want them to be healing even if your not taking damage. The point I was making about our CD's being "oh shit" buttons is that by you constantly using them, your making your damage even streakier than it needs to be. I save all my CD's for when the heals get low on mana to give them a great. By poping them the whole fight, your healers are consistantly second guessing their heals. For that fight, I would suggest not using them unless your healers get low on mana or you get low on life and for the healers to NEVER stop healing. They can stop healing when he is dead.

As for why people are saying "BEST" in the context of "Best geared" meaning that usually the person that can withstand the hatefulls/avoid them should be best suited for OT, who IMO should also have the highest HP (Bears are what we use). The reason you see some of us use "Best" is not to place a title but to convay that the new kid on the block with blues would prolly be best suited for MT rather than OT, mostly because OT gets a 20% (if I remember correctly) increased threat gen. Thats where your "Best" tank comes in, they would prolly know this over the new kid and be able to manage their threat better. Please keep in mind the context in which these words are being used. On these forums, from what I have read from most of its posters is that they arent placing titles, but moreover using discriptive words which could be easier for the general populous to understand.