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Ferim
01-14-2009, 04:33 PM
I've been playing as a feral tank for about 10 months now, and I love it. I've read quite a bit of text on what should be done and right now all I am looking for is just some constructive criticism and suggestions on things that the community here may look at me improving.

Currently my raid experience in Wrath is all of 10/25-man naxx 10/25-man Obsidian Sanctum, and of course Archavon.

I'm at work right now so I can't link my wowarmory currently.

I'm Ferim on the Ghostlands server..

Thanks in advance

Stearns
01-14-2009, 05:11 PM
Not sure what you're asking about. Took a quick look at your profile and your gear, gems & enchants look fine. If you are more specific, that would help people respond.

Ferim
01-14-2009, 05:16 PM
I apologize if I was vague, I just want some other perspective from people who play feral tank on something that maybe I myself am not seeing as far as my gear goes. Somethings that I may improve on or something that I may wanna pay particular attention to. I've heard some people on Tankspot.com say that 40% dodge is LOW. I'm not sure if I want to loose my 38% dodge self-buffed and maybe stack more stamina, or go for higher dodge rating.
Also I'm torn between 2 trinkets.
The Essence of Gossamer and The Offering of Sacrifice. Yes the Essence gives over 1k health and the proc is not bad either, but the offering of sacrifice has the sheer armor on it and to me that seems like the right choice. What do you think?

Again sorry if this is kinda vague.

Banx
01-14-2009, 05:34 PM
After the next patch, the armor won't be multiplied into your bear form, so it basically won't be worth much to bears. So you'll only be getting 550 armor.

Basically put Essence > Offering after next patch.

Ferim
01-14-2009, 05:58 PM
So after the patch what would you say is an acceptable amount of armor while in Dire Bear Form? Because with the Essence on I've got MAYBE 25k armor and that seriously seems a little low for the content that I've been doing.

Stearns
01-14-2009, 05:59 PM
Ok well, they're all good questions. In terms of trinket choice, I would say it depends on the fight. Have a selection with you at all times, so make an effort to collect them all. eg with the upcoming change to armor on trinkets, defenders code is no longer a super-ultimate trinket that every bear *must* have. They did this precisely because they wanted bears to have choice, not an exact list for all occassions.

eg If I need max mitigation (patchwerk) I'll always go with max armor items. If I'm tanking trash, I tend to use dps & dodge gear more. Dodge means more when you're being hit by many mobs: you'll dodge more of the attacks. It a boss hits you once every 1.2 seconds, dodge is not so important: You'll either dodge, or you wont, but your healers have time to react either way. Dont get me wrong - dodge is still great on single bosses, its always an awesome thing. But there's no definitive guide.

Check out the trinket darkmoon card: greatness. It's boe so you can buy it (for lots of gold!) or craft it yourself through inscription. It took me a lot of gold to craft, but it's one of my favourites now. Procs my dodge up to 52% at times.

So much depends on your healers: do they go oom when healing you? How quickly do you kill bosses? (depends on your dps). Dont worry too much about precise numbers. If you keep picking up solid upgrades (and you know what a tanking upgrade is for you when you see it) you'll be fine. As a rough guide, I'm around 42k health raid buffed. Possibly I would need more for sarth++ but not for anything else. Dodge is around 44% passive right now. Stam is useful to a point, but if you're always between 50% and 100% health, then the extra stamina may be wasted.

Personally, I dont gem/enchant for stamina - I think there's enough on the gear, and with the socket bonuses on t7, which I try to meet. I'm more interested in agility, expertise and hit. Then, I'll start working on damage... maybe even put some strength gems in there for fun.

Some other examples to think about: are you clearing all your raids successfully atm? If so, you're doing fine. If you're dying a lot, it could be also be your healers. How do you compare to your other tanking class friends in guild? Is one player easier to keep up than another? Try things out and experiment. Look at your stats after the fight, then try something different, and compare the new stats.

Haha now I'm giving you a vague response. I think the real joy in the game is working these things out for yourself, because it depends so much on everyone else.

Ferim
01-14-2009, 07:12 PM
About not gemming for stamina I agree with that BUT, I'm trying to see if getting more dodge % would help my healers out. I'm going to say conservatively that I'm the best geared feral tank in my guild. The other feral tank stack for stam, and actually gemmed for defense (I have no idea why). For our last patchwork encounter he had 43k hp raid buffed whereas I had my 37k with 44% dodge for the encounter. The fight started and I just watched him die. I don't know if it was an avoidance issue or maybe the healer got the time off on the heal or he took 2 hateful's in a row, but healers have no problem keeping me up.

I was wondering, with my gear should I try to gain more dodge or armor or maybe work on my stamina a little bit? As far as armor goes, what is a desireable amount for the current raid content, I've had no problem so far but a solid number would really help me out because with that essence on I've only got like 24k armor, vice 28k with the offering.
Healers usually have no problem keeping me up.

I've also got the Journey's End and the Origin of Nightmares as weapons. As a threat generator I really like the Journey's End, but the Origin of Nightmare's is truly the best tanking staff in the game. I'm gonna mess around with some stuff when I get home, but please keep the input coming!'

blackhand
01-14-2009, 08:22 PM
Really, after you can't get insta-gibbed by the raid boss, you should gem for avoidance. That motto works with all tanks. Also geming with Def/Stam is a great way to gain stam and avoidance if you're trying to get a socket bonus.

Ferim
01-14-2009, 08:34 PM
Hrm. That's actually a real good way to look at things. Thank You!

lucero
01-20-2009, 01:52 PM
Also geming with Def/Stam is a great way to gain stam and avoidance if you're trying to get a socket bonus.

I wouldn't ever gem Defense as a druid. I've actually tinkered with some defense items and gems to look at the increase to dodge and armor, and it still seems to pale in comparison to agility. For a warrior or paladin, where defense rating increases their chance to mitigate with three stats: dodge, parry and block, as opposed to our one: dodge, then sure, defense sounds like a good way to go, but druids are crit immune with SotF alone and stacking defense yields less gains than agility. I think that's bad advice and I am still perplexed when I see druids with defense gear.

That being said, I am still looking for a solid explanation as to why druids are doing this.

Stearns, I'm also very interested to speak to you about your opinion on druids taking strength/stam items over agility/stam items because you sound fairly knowledgeable on the theorycrafting, and you have progressed further into the content than I have.

On some items, I totally understand why druids are taking a strength item, Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784), for example. Armor + Stam + Dodge = a druid's dream. However, on the emblem of heroism necks, for instance, I've seen several druids taking the Chained Military Gorget - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40679) over the Pendant of the Outcast Hero - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40678), for instance. While you gain roughly 300 stamina and some valuable hit rating, your dodge and armor will actually decrease, and as I've stated above, the defense is basically wasted. The paltry increase it gives to your dodge chance still keeps it lower than the Pendant, which is beneficial in two forms instead of just one, to boot.

I actually purchased the Gorget to see what the fuss was about. After equipping it and seeing it was a side-grade at best, I put in a ticket and the GMs were actually kind enough to refund my emblems. They don't do that lightly.

I'm having no problems with my tanking right now. My guild is currently working on clearing Naxx (we're 7/15 after our first week in) on ten man. We don't have the numbers for 25s yet. So I realize part of this stuff is situational, but I'm really looking for some light to be shed on druids taking strength items for tanking and I'd love to hear a rational argument for druids taking defense items.

Sure, I think I'm gearing the right way, but if I'm wrong, I want to know it, and I want to know why.

If I'm hijacking this thread, I apologize, I would be more than happy to repost under a new topic.

Dairykween
01-21-2009, 07:04 PM
Hi Lucero,

Due to the diminishing returns on dodge, some maths boffins worked out that defence actually scales better as an avoidance stat after about 50% dodge unbuffed. I wish I could find the article(s) on this, if you find them don't be shy in posting them :)

As for the choice in tanking necks, the 'tank' neck boasts more avoidance and stamina than the 'dps' neck at certain levels of dodge and above. For the dodge that I have currently (~41% unbuffed) the tank neck gives me more avoidance than the DPS neck (the tank neck has 0.05% less dodge but 0.27% more miss), plus more health. This is due to the DR on the amount of dodge I have. I also lose 98 armour but gain 380 health by equipping the tank neck over the dps one.

But for trash the DPS neck is more than adequate as a druid.

blackhand
01-22-2009, 12:04 AM
Don't forget that defense also increased the chance of an enemy missing you. So your getting dodge and chance to miss. Also, I said that if he was going for a set bonus.

lucero
01-23-2009, 02:50 AM
Cool, thanks for the input. My unbuffed dodge is currently somewhere around 42% Guess I"m getting to the point I might need to start considering some defense stuff. I'll probably search for the articles you mention and wait for a bit closer to 50% though.

Mammoth
01-23-2009, 12:56 PM
As Blackhand said defense both increases dodge and decreases miss. 1 defense rating is worth about 2/3 dodge rating for druids. Yes, Defense is inferior to agility and dodge as a mitigation stat but is still useful. The Defense/Stamina gem is probably the best pure mitigation gem to fill a yellow slot if you need to satisfy color requirements for the bonus; of course some druids will choose to use a threat based gem in that case instead.

Looking at the two neck pieces in terms of avoidance:

Gorget: 1.34% dodge/miss (.81% dodge from dodge rating, .27% dodge and .27% miss from defense rating)
Pendent: 1.14% dodge from agility

So the Gorget actually has .2% more total avoidance and 24 more stamina in exchange for about 100 armor.

Ferim
01-23-2009, 05:03 PM
I'm just got Heritage from 25-man Naxx and unbuffed I sit about 39% self-buffed and 31k hp. Not to shabby should I go after more dodge?

blackhand
01-26-2009, 12:08 AM
Yes, there is no point in where getting more dodge is bad, but just don't gimp your other stats.

Dairykween
01-27-2009, 07:34 PM
Also, it has been suggested that druids do not actively stack or seek out defense rating, rather, take it as it comes. Don't discount an item just because it has defense on it, but at the same time don't go gemming and enchanting for it.

As for DR on dodge from agility, it was worked out that you would need a crazy amount of agility (I think a few thousand) before you could justify not seeking it out any longer. In other words, we won't need to worry about DR on agility on tier 7 and probably not even tier 8.

Agility is still your friend!

Ferim
01-27-2009, 08:00 PM
Yeah I've gotten a few new things and got my dodge in bear self-buffed to about 40% and got my Defender's Code with both those trinkets popped I hit about 56% dodge :) and I'm lovin' it.

lucero
01-28-2009, 12:15 AM
Gorget: 1.34% dodge/miss (.81% dodge from dodge rating, .27% dodge and .27% miss from defense rating)
Pendent: 1.14% dodge from agility

So the Gorget actually has .2% more total avoidance and 24 more stamina in exchange for about 100 armor.

What's the formula on that 1.14% dodge from agility?

Mammoth
01-29-2009, 03:23 PM
The relevant formulas for a level 80 feral druid with Survival of the Fittest and Heart of the Wild are:

39.31 Agility=1% dodge

39.35 Dodge=1% dodge

61.48 Defense Rating=.5% dodge and .5% chance to be missed=1% avoidance

The Defense rating comes from the more commonly shown value:
30.74 Defense Rating=.25% chance to dodge/.25% chance to be missed/.25% change to parry/.25% chance to block
Since druids can't parry or block this boils down to:
30.74 Defense Rating=.25% chance to dodge/.25% chance to be missed
Double both sides to bring it up to 1% avoidance to make it easy to compare with the other two stats.

Losthero
01-29-2009, 04:21 PM
ok im a little slow here on what you all are talking about and have two questions. I have my feral gemmed in all (dodge/stam) gems...he is probably about to 46-47% dodge (id check but im in class as im writing this) and I've heard there is no reason what so ever you need or want to gem or go out of your way for any Def at all since we get all we need with SotF. So my first question would be have I been misinformed or am I going down the right path? and my second qestion is should I be stacking agi/stam gems instead of dodge/stam? I have trouble some times with numbers lol, so any input qould be appreciated...I mean im in pretty nice gear as of now but just confusing myself with gemming and this defense discussion

Ferim
01-30-2009, 06:55 AM
In my opinion you get a lot more from agility than you do from dodge. And yes you are uncrittable if you spec fully into Survival of the Fittest.

Pul
01-30-2009, 10:46 AM
About the comparisons on the necklaces I thought on adding 2 rings where you also notice slight diference: Deflection Band - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39141) and Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784) in avoidance. With my current numbers - my total avoidance will go from 41.94 to 41.76 and my DR 68.82 to 69.13, respectivly. However gaining 0,77% hit. I prefer the Deflection Band.

Oumpf
02-02-2009, 06:15 PM
I am currently in 4/5 T7 with almost any ench/gem I'd like at this time. Equipped with the Gorget, Keystone, and Deflection Band. Carry my Plaguebeast and darn L70 Idol of Terror. Have cleared Naxx10, OS10 & 25, Vault10 & 25, and have cleared one wing of Naxx25. Raid buffed I sit at 45% dodge. I have Agi gems in all but I believe 2 gem slots, for the simple reason I have yet to take the time to switch them. I hold 40k health which is more than enough and I can't remember my exact armor, but I have well over 70% dmg reduction. I see no reason at all to ever gem anything but agi at this point. It is true after 50% dodge agi's DR falls below Def. But it shouldn't be an issue until new conent and T8 comes out or Blizz can create a LvL80 scaled version of Idol of Terror. Being a LW I get the +90 sta buff which eliminates the need for any sta gems, and DEF just isn't worth it. I hope for the day I get to 50% dodge. Thus far I see no issues that would make me want to change my route in agi gems, but I'm not saying it is the only option. For me, it works best. I'm open for any comments/input you all can share, I'm always looking to learn or help. :D

Stearns
02-05-2009, 12:45 AM
Yes I dont think we've yet seen gear or content that forces us to worry about diminishing returns on dodge. please noone be worried about stacking the defense stat! Dont sweat if its on your jewelry, but dont gem/enchant for it. I think DR on dodge is a preventative measure for t8/9 content: druid dodge, like druid armor, was just way too high in Sunwell before they applied the radiance debuff. And that was an ugly hack.

For those still working through the current content however, I'd say experiment with threat gems & enchants as your raid gears up. Expertise & hit are both fantastic if you can afford them over traditional stats, & strength is the best for pure dps. Our guild outgeared naxx25 after a few full clears with 30ish raiders getting their upgrades each week. Outgeared means the only reason you wipe is when (a lot of) people make (a lot of) stupid mistakes - hopefully rarely! So I found I no longer have to worry about traditional tanking obligations... then what else is there to do? If you're healers aren't oom and you're not dying, why not increase your dps?

Above all, there's no ideal theory. You have to try things out with the group you run with, taking inputs from different people's experiences & ideas, and see what works for you. I love being #5/25 on total raid damage these days - right up there with the DKs, mages & hunter. Some people have tried tanking in "cat" gear with cat stats. After the armor increases on leather, it starts to be a lot more attractive. Again, that's experimental stuff. If you're still having trouble pulling your raids together to kill a boss reliably, then go with the normal virtues of health, avoidance & mitigation.

Someone mentioned their high stamina druid tends to die a lot more than their lower stam/higher dodge druid. I'm not at all surprised. Stamina's an attractive stat because its easy to understand, believe it or not. Just multiply up and there you go. Dodge, diminishing returns, parry haste, chance to miss, magic resistance mechanics etc etc take a lot more effort to understand.