View Full Version : Going for expertise soft cap or going for hit?

01-13-2009, 09:43 AM

01-13-2009, 10:31 AM
You should look at some more recent WWS parses. HotR + Swing will generally make up 30-35% of your dps, not 40%. At least if you are doing the correct DPS rotation.

01-13-2009, 10:43 AM
Here is a list of various parses where paladins are MT'ing and OT'ing patchwerk for example. Not all of them are doing optimal rotations, but in most all of them, HotR damage is much lower than prescribed:

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/eognwf1r1jv2y?a=x1dfdc1a&s=721845-775613)
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/pktfr5nikxutw?s=356405-382581&a=x41bd971)
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/rdvrdcjncgaki?s=154682-180167&a=x3dd3c2b)
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/rdvrdcjncgaki?s=154682-180167&a=x41bd971)
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/uzhvbcfd5snjq?s=467642-496078&a=x196a085)

Those all came from the top listed DPS attempts on Patchwerk where I found a paladin tanking in some fashion.

01-13-2009, 02:50 PM
Look at fights other than patch, I still see a close to 40% total dps coming from White hits and HoR most of the time a min of 35% damage. And even at that reduced amount the expertise would still give 1.75% dps increase and still provide survivability. Oh and the WWS parses i used were from Obs Sanctum and 25 man naxx runs over all, not just one fight where the tank can spam every cool down they have

Some of those parses have more than just patchwerk on them and HotR typically still falls in the lower range. I think your numbers are a bit higher than they should be for on average. If you have more than 1 target (maybe fights like Inst. Raz or trash), then HotR will definitely be up there, but in general, it is going to be lower than melee attacks and ShoR.

Someone made a good point in another thread. You didn't really include the effects of the LoO in your equations. It provides both a decent chunk of threat and mitigation. You also don't address the utility of hit in terms of taunts (our new one doesn't have a glyph) and the JotJ debuff, which aren't affected by expertise at all.

Your stuff is a good start. You just need to fill in some holes and maybe look at a larger sample to get your percentages. Definitely an interesting read.

02-11-2009, 03:07 AM
I might be a bit confused, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but on a "being parried point of view", the amount of white damage and HotR damage you do is irrelevant. Shouldn't it be more about how many times you hit with an attack that can be parried?

I could go tank a boss with a beatstick that does 2 DPS with an attack speed of 1.0. I will get parried a hell of a lot more than with a weapon that has a 2.5 speed and 159 DPS. Yes, % are the same, but the amount of parries per minute would differ. So if I went and looked at the amount of white damage in the first case, I could say, "Well, expertise is not important, it would only affect 3% of my white damage", however that would be wrong, because I got parried a lot more when I did less white damage than when I did more damage.

Take two weapons with the same damage, and different speeds. You do the same amount of white damage, but you hit more often with one weapon, so you will need more expertise when using the faster weapon, and less when using the slower weapon.

When you can use a slower weapon (as Seal of Veangeance makes us fairly careless about weapon speed) you could concentrate on hit more than on expertise. When you use a faster weapon, without turning your melee statistics upside down, expertise should become more important. Otherwise all the discussions about whether or not to spec for Reckoning (aside from whether it's useful threat wise in WOTLK or not) would be pointless. In TBC Reckoning's threat was more important than it is now, but people would complain that they don't have enough expertise, so some people would strongly suggest not to spec for it from a mitigation standpoint. Others, who were probably well geared and could take a few more hits, would spec for it for threat. While now Reckoning's threat is probably irrelevant, the being parried is still an issue.

On a side note, there's a "hidden" threat buff also for white damage that you get when your RF is on. I forgot where I read it. It's supposed to "compensate" for not having a permanent Blessing of Salvation. But I have no real ground to stand on, on this one, no real statistics, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Anyroad, it's the conversion from % of actually landing a blow to % of DPS that I think is flawed in this reasoning.

This is my 2 cents, and if I am terribly wrong, I will be happy to read the info of people who know more, there is always a lot to learn.

EDIT: To correct some typos.

02-11-2009, 05:49 AM
There is a hidden buff when RF is up. It causes us to generate 1.43*x threat, where x is our threat without the hidden buff. Warriors, druids, and DK's all have this hidden buff in their respective "tanking stances" as well.

02-16-2009, 06:15 AM
Well, for DKs and Warriors it isn't a hidden buff I suppose as their frost presence/defensive stance simply says their threat is increased, while Righteous Fury specifically says Holy Damage is increased (unless the tooltip has changed, I didn't pay much attention).


But thanks for confirming it. Actually the other day I was taking the Hurtfuls on Patchwerk on Naxx normal, I let a Druid who wasn't really tank specced MT him as I figured the hurtfuls would be a bigger problem. We figured with his gear we could manage the run with just me as real tank and him helping when more than one was needed (and we did). I was basically producing his same threat just with weapon swings and Vengeance. But that's another thing.

In reguards to the soft cap, I decided to use the Seal of Vengeance Glyph, so now, without even gemming or getting enchants for it, I am at 7% expertise (or better, 7% chance NOT to be dodged or parried) whenever Vengeance is active (doesn't show in the Armoury as it's buff related). And Vengeance is always active when I tank.

So, really, gearing for expertise shouldn't be an issue.

02-16-2009, 06:17 AM
Deleted this message as I pressed "quote" instead of "edit" on my previous message so I had it on twice >.<

03-02-2009, 11:36 AM
Well, for DKs and Warriors it isn't a hidden buff I suppose as their frost presence/defensive stance simply says their threat is increased, while Righteous Fury specifically says Holy Damage is increased (unless the tooltip has changed, I didn't pay much attention).


Actually it would be a hidden buff. If you remember back to the warrior/dk bug the devs told us about like a month or so ago. Warriors who died and didn't refresh defensive stance didn't get the 1.43 multiplier even though they had defensive stance/frost presence on.

More pertinent to the topic. TheckHD at maintankadin has been running numbers and simulations and found that hit is typically around 1.5x better than expertise for both DPS and TPS for a paladin:

Analytical calculations have demonstrated that hit is roughly 1.5x better than expertise for both DPS and TPS.
Maintankadin :: View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?p=376019#376019)

Expertise trails behind Strength, Hit, Block Value, and Attack Power in terms of effectiveness. It's just not a very good threat stat, all things considered.

Hit is our second-best dps/threat stat at raiding gear levels, behind Strength. While you should probably never actually gem for hit, gear with hit is generally going to be preferable to gear with expertise, provided the other stats are comparable.

source: Maintankadin :: View topic - How important is hit/expertise? (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?p=383876#383876)

03-09-2009, 01:33 AM
That's a nice link. Thanks :)

03-09-2009, 06:03 AM
Righteous Fury, Frost Presence, Defensive Stance, and Bear form (can a bear clear this up, is there a threat modifier from stance or is it just factored into the various bear talents like Predatory Strikes), all have had their exact threat modifiers hidden though they all still reference that they increase threat generated.

Frost Presence's current modifier is 2.07 (based on 1 dmg = 1 threat as a base).