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Cable
01-12-2009, 09:54 PM
I'm considering giving Blood tanking a try once patch 3.0.8 finally drops. Having never played Blood before, I'm hoping to get some advice on the build I'm working on. What do you think of what I have so far?


Blood Tank Spec (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355321533003310000201313503050000000 000000000000000000035200000000000000000000000000&glyph=200906050401)

Firstprime
01-13-2009, 12:14 AM
I have am currently a Blood tank and will continue to be one after the patch. I'm very much looking forward to the buffs we're getting. Spec looks pretty good for the most part. Your spec is basically what I use apart from a few minor talents in blood. Another way to go is to go deeper into frost and pick up Annihilation tho I personally don't see a need for it.

Frost and unholy talents look good but there are a few things in blood I would move around particularly Scent of Blood. It's bad. Bloody Vengeance is too good to pass up an extra 9% damage boost to your physical damage (as blood the majority of your damage will be physical) is pretty large and even in tanking gear you should be able to manage to crit once every 30secs and keep it up during an entire boss fight. Abomination's Might is also a nice tps/dps boost for you as well as a nice raid buff to your melee. If you have a steady raiding shaman this can be skipped as they alos provide a raid wide 10% ap buff although you would be loosing 2% strength. Will of Necropolis is recieving a very nice buff but even in its new form it won't be very powerful. It can provide a nice buff to survivability with the current content it doesnt seem worth it as I rarely drop that low. I do think my guild has pretty amazing healers but if your guild does not or if you're still in blues I can see you speccing into it. Unless I get to MT Malygos or Sartharion with 3 drakes I won't be speccing into it.

Glyph of Dark Command is pretty useless if your taunt fails to land we can simply death grip. If its a boss even if hes immune to the pull it will still act as a mocking blow and get the mob onto us long for taunt to come off cd again. Theres a decent amount of hit rating on tanking gear and you should be sitting at a reasonable amount of hit and taunt shouldn't be resisted too often. I'm going to go with Glyph of Rune Strike.

I'll probably go with something like this.Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMqh0IcbRtzAZhxZcg)

Satorri
01-13-2009, 05:17 PM
Cable, first, I would sooner take Bloody Vengeance than Might of Mograine, since I'd rather take the flat damage increase than a slight crit damage buff. If you use the other talents and abilities well, you can keep that stacked even as a tank with lower crit values. To that end, Sudden Doom should not be underestimated. Those Death Coils are free guaranteed crits, which is some quality threat, and some lovely ranged threat at that, if you need it. With Morbidity and Bloody Vengeance stacking, that can really add up.

Abom's Might is a high value talent as well, though if you're routinely running with an enhancement shaman, obviously it's rather less valuable (though the +Str% is still good, remember parry+AP).

Blood Aura and Two-hand Specialization I would do without. The health regen from the aura is so poor, if you aren't dpsing it won't be enough to even save a life in a pinch. Two-hand Specialization is a decent buff, though I've never felt like it really has the same sort of threat value. It is certainly a damage buff with a nice trickle-down, but I tend to favor other talents before it unless I'm dpsing.

Scent of Blood is not bad, by any stretch, though I frequently don't find I need the extra RP as much, especially as Blood where I like to rely on HS spam. So that's one that you could consider as a maybe if you're trying to pick up other larger value talents for tanking sake.

It can be very nice to be able to Oblit as Blood, and I wouldn't do it without Annihilation unless your timing is impeccable, shedding diseases even when you're prepared to stack them right back up, can create little flatlines in threat. To that end, you could also consider digging slightly deeper into Frost for that, but again, that may not be as necessary, and you could probably get more mileage by taking Vicious Strikes and using DS for those FU pairs (again, using that tastey free crit % to keep Bloody Vengeance up).

Cable
01-13-2009, 08:52 PM
Thanks for the input you two. :-) After reading what you have said I've revised my build a bit. How does this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355001533003313201051310503050000000 000000000000000000035200000000000000000000000000&glyph=200906050401) look?

Also, I agree that it would be nice to be able to use Obliterate without consuming diseases, but was having a hard time getting to Annihilation without sacrificing what I think are too good of talents in Blood. Could you give me an example of how you might pick up Annihilation?

I came up with this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355001533003313201051310003052000030 000000000000000000035200000000000000000000000000&glyph=200906050401) to pick up Annihilation. I just dropped Blood Gorged and used those 5 points in Frost to get to it. How important do you think Blood Gorged is?

Satorri
01-14-2009, 07:20 AM
Either build looks pretty reasonable.

As for Blood-gorged, I'm eternally on the fence for tanking. On one hand the 5 expertise is quite valuable. Blood the way I prefer it (read: HS spam) makes very good use of Expertise, so for that the talent is a nice passive bonus. The damage increase is what can be a bit inconsistant. It is certainly not a 10% damage bonus, since you can and may regularly drop in health. Though you will get the damage buff when it may be most advantagious, at the very start of the fight, and once the healing settles out on longer fights. It certainly can have its value, though I don't always see it as indispensible.

I'm not sure quite how it would work out, since Annihilation makes Oblit more accessible and buffs your crit chance for HS/Oblit/DS which will surely work in the favor of Blood's central theme.

Cable
01-14-2009, 09:00 AM
I see your point concerning Blood Gorged. I was also thinking the same thing: the expertise would be great for additional threat, but the damage bonus would be unreliable for the reasons you stated.

Now I'm just trying to decide which build to really go with. I can go with my first build and have 11 expertise through talents while needing to watch my diseases very carefully to use Obliterate. Alternatively I can drop Blood Gorged, end up with 6 expertise, and be able to use Obliterate whenever I want without worrying about reapplying my diseases right after (with the additional bonus of 3% more crit on melee specials).

I know I will need to be using Obliterate because there's not really anything else besides IT and PS to use those UF runes for (unless I just use DS all the time instead of Obliterate, which I suppose could work). When you tank as Blood and don't pick up Annihilation, do you just use DS rather than Obliterate?

Satorri
01-15-2009, 11:45 AM
That's my method, yeah. And it's not terrible, it won't do as much damage, but it does do decent threat (damage threat+healing threat), not quite as much as Oblit, but the healing really adds up as well, effectively stretching your health. DS'ing with Vampiric Blood up is also very potent. Bear in mind, Oblit or DS, you'll only be using that once or twice per pair of rune sets, since you have Epidemic and DRM. On the other cycle you can hit 4 or 6 HS's, which does not suck in the least.

Tristram
01-16-2009, 01:44 PM
Ok so Satorri what rotation would you use for blood?

Nightdemon
01-16-2009, 02:17 PM
I see your point concerning Blood Gorged. I was also thinking the same thing: the expertise would be great for additional threat, but the damage bonus would be unreliable for the reasons you stated.

Now I'm just trying to decide which build to really go with. I can go with my first build and have 11 expertise through talents while needing to watch my diseases very carefully to use Obliterate. Alternatively I can drop Blood Gorged, end up with 6 expertise, and be able to use Obliterate whenever I want without worrying about reapplying my diseases right after (with the additional bonus of 3% more crit on melee specials).

I know I will need to be using Obliterate because there's not really anything else besides IT and PS to use those UF runes for (unless I just use DS all the time instead of Obliterate, which I suppose could work). When you tank as Blood and don't pick up Annihilation, do you just use DS rather than Obliterate?


Currently using:

IT PS BS BS OB - IT PS BS BS BS BS

Works quite well. Get alot of single target threat out of it ^^ (Uusally averaging around... 6-8k)

Firstprime
01-16-2009, 02:34 PM
Currently using:

IT PS BS BS OB - IT PS BS BS BS BS

Works quite well. Get alot of single target threat out of it ^^ (Uusally averaging around... 6-8k)
You mean heart strike not blood strike right?

That is basically what I use. I also pick up sudden doom and throw in a few dcs when I have a free gcd.

Satorri
01-18-2009, 09:42 PM
Aye, and free DC crits are delicious threat, with the 4 HS spam method they proc pretty continually, at least once per most rune sets.

Urrick
01-19-2009, 08:22 AM
Switched over to blood in preparation for the patch. Still might rethink my talents as I'd love to have one more point into annhilation. Of course I tend to use DS while tanking just for the extra health.

Also thinking of this as a spec...
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=005502153330330020005131300305020 01200000000000000000000352000000000000000000000000 00)

But I'm going to wait till post patch to see how I like Blood tanking then.

mayhemtank
01-19-2009, 07:12 PM
Im trying a new spec for tanking, it gives me more health, but I want some comments on how it might be improved.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMq0IcobMZGx0the0R0oZcx)

Its a frost/blood hybrid. So far its been pretty good. Tanked Heroic Azjol, Heroic Anhkahet, and Normal Obsidian Sanctum. Tried vault yestarday, but group failed.(epically)

harliequinn
01-19-2009, 10:27 PM
Im trying a new spec for tanking, it gives me more health, but I want some comments on how it might be improved.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMq0IcobMZGx0the0R0oZcx)

Its a frost/blood hybrid. So far its been pretty good. Tanked Heroic Azjol, Heroic Anhkahet, and Normal Obsidian Sanctum. Tried vault yestarday, but group failed.(epically)

Looks ok for a different type of build

I wouldnt have rune tap unless i have imp rune tap, doesnt seem worth the rune or the point for a small heal.
Also Vendetta i believe would only work if you got the killing blow, and its not often a tank will do that, other wise its also not worth the 3 pts
If i was to try a spec like this, i would go more like this

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMVhhIobZuxxthc0ohoZcx)

Satorri
01-21-2009, 05:03 AM
Ha ha ha, Rune Tap is plenty good as a 10% heal! In modest tank gear that's still 3k or so raid buffed. It's also quite meaty with the matching glyph. 25-mans, put all the tanks in your party and suddenly it's a 14k total healing.

And that's what I've seen of Vendetta as well. If it proc'd on proximity kills it'd be way too powerful for trash and worthless on bosses.

Ashern
01-21-2009, 06:32 AM
Has anyone else had a chance to tank as a blood spec with the new changes yesterday? I ran a 25 man OS along with a 10 man naxx yesterday and the difference was impressive. The new runeforge along with the new talents allowed me to mostly regem around stamina. While under the effects of Vamp Blood I had 40k Hps and 35% more healing. My build was a 50/5/16 taking advantage of all the passive stamina talents along with the new runeforge. I used CE as a runic power dump along with my runestrike. My Glyphs were Vamp blood, Rune tap, and Death Strike. Has anyone else tried something similar and if so how has your mileage varied?

Urrick
01-21-2009, 06:34 AM
I didn't try it yet but am interested to hear others thoughts/experiences with AE tanking and the new HS.

Does the Rune Tap glyph's healing add on to your threat?

Schmittzer
01-21-2009, 08:07 AM
Has anyone else had a chance to tank as a blood spec with the new changes yesterday? I ran a 25 man OS along with a 10 man naxx yesterday and the difference was impressive. The new runeforge along with the new talents allowed me to mostly regem around stamina. While under the effects of Vamp Blood I had 40k Hps and 35% more healing. My build was a 50/5/16 taking advantage of all the passive stamina talents along with the new runeforge. I used CE as a runic power dump along with my runestrike. My Glyphs were Vamp blood, Rune tap, and Death Strike. Has anyone else tried something similar and if so how has your mileage varied?

Hi,

Can u show that spec in a talent calculator? I'm Frost actually, but i want to give a try with blood spec.

Thx :p

Wizler
01-21-2009, 09:19 AM
What would be the standard rotation as blood, im using OB,IT,BS,HS,HS,OB,HS,HS, but im finding it less TPS, then the half blood half unholy I was before 3.0.8. Anyone have any input?

Ashern
01-21-2009, 10:53 AM
Hi,

Can u show that spec in a talent calculator? I'm Frost actually, but i want to give a try with blood spec.

Thx :p

NP Here is a link to my current blood tanking build.

Talent Link (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=035500153330330320100131050005000 00000000000000000000002352200001001000000000000000 00)

Basically My FU runes are being used by Deathstrike as I did not go into frost to take up the supporting talents. The synergy of DS works very nice with a Blood/Unholy Build. RS is my primary runic power dump and CE is used during AOE situations. The new HS works like a charm and after some practice you can tab HS/CE for some nice burst. I do not have any combat logs saved as currently I am wrapping things up at the office and will not have access to my PC till around 9 EST time.

Schmittzer
01-21-2009, 11:48 AM
NP Here is a link to my current blood tanking build.

Talent Link (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=035500153330330320100131050005000 00000000000000000000002352200001001000000000000000 00)

Basically My FU runes are being used by Deathstrike as I did not go into frost to take up the supporting talents. The synergy of DS works very nice with a Blood/Unholy Build. RS is my primary runic power dump and CE is used during AOE situations. The new HS works like a charm and after some practice you can tab HS/CE for some nice burst. I do not have any combat logs saved as currently I am wrapping things up at the office and will not have access to my PC till around 9 EST time.

Thx!, I'll try this one. Looks very nice.

Schmittzer
01-21-2009, 12:12 PM
NP Here is a link to my current blood tanking build.

Talent Link (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=035500153330330320100131050005000 00000000000000000000002352200001001000000000000000 00)


What about 2 points into outbreak instead of Virulence? I mean, for AoE Purpose. Is worth if i'm having problem to keep aggro on AoE Pulls?

Urrick
01-21-2009, 12:22 PM
Thinking of trying this out...
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=035500153330330320100131050005000 00000000000000000000002352200001001000000000000000 00)

It fits my raid role I think pretty well. I'll try it out to see how it works with AE groups. That is my main concern with Blood. Also leaning toward Blood Gorged due to the added expertise.

mayhemtank
01-24-2009, 01:23 PM
what about this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0qIhcsfRzuVZ0xZfgM0z0o) ?
i threw a few points into bloodworms for sum added healz n dps.

Runair
01-25-2009, 03:17 PM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMoIhIobopuhZhxbzhZcg) is what I am using, Single target TPS is fine and so is aoe.
I'm trying to figure out if it's worth dropping lichborne and improved obliterate to get blood vengeance/dark conviction and blood gored.

Satorri
01-26-2009, 06:15 AM
For some fun this weekend, I went and spec'd blood for a round of heroics. I have to say, I love the feel of it now for threat generation, the HS cleave is amazing fun and quite meaty for building threat on 2-3 people with less work. It's still not as good for LARGE number groups, Unholy and Pallies still corner that market, though Morbid DnD makes it easy to keep ties on them so long as you don't have major AoE nukes (strong Hurricane, Blizzard, etc will yank them after a bit of time without additional attention or a lot of tab targetting).

Here's the build I used (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355001533003313000051310203050200030 000000000000000000035200000100000000000000000000&glyph=201612040501), it worked quite nicely, and my single target threat was pretty hard to match. Please note, I don't consider this to be a great universal spec. I specifically left off Abom's might because I was running them all with an enhance shaman (so I traded the 2% Str for other goodies).

2 little tidbits of note:
1.) Vamp Blood stacks with Guardian Spirit, ha ha ha, I Rune Tapped once for 17k.
2.) My GF heals me a lot, and I ran some heroics with my Blood spec, and then some with my unholy spec, and her feedback was simple. I was noticeably more squishy as blood, though it wasn't harder to keep me alive it took more work on her part (she's used to being able to dps half the time when I'm unholy).

I love the feel of Blood now, though the squishy but more easily healed is something I'm still on the fence about how much I like that as a tank. Incidentally though, glyphed Vamp Blood is ridiculous. 30 sec duration, 1 min CD, 15% health increase and 35% increased heals?! I imagine heavenly Hateful tanking on Patch25 provided you have a dedicated healer or two.

Grizle
01-26-2009, 07:17 AM
Sattori, what rotation are you using with this blood spec?

Satorri
01-26-2009, 07:48 AM
Well, I always have to preface to say I avoid strict rotations, I adjust on every set as needed, but it is usually something like this:

Single: IT > PS > OB > HS > HS // HS > HS > HS > HS > IT > PS
*using Sudden Doom immediately as it procs, and dropping DC in the cracks of CDs. Depending on how it works out, I often slip into 3-4 phasic rotations.

Group: DnD (preset early) > IT > PS > Pest // OB > HS > Pest > OB

I was able to hold group pulls just fine like this, and I actually only reapplied DnD on pulls that were particularly large (think 8+) and/or were rangers (hunters/casters who root and withdraw).

With Blood, and Frost for that matter, I am a big fan of disease juggling in group pulls. This is a somewhat advanced technique and it really requires that you be on top of things, but you can use a single blood CD to keep your diseases up indefinitely, instead of continually burning an FU pair. Removing the Pest CD made this possible again, it used to be pretty impractical. I don't use this with my Unholy setup though, as I PS regularly to keep Desecration set and spread.

Krovacs
01-26-2009, 08:07 AM
I've been experimenting with Blood since the patch, and I've found a spec that I'm very happy with.

I call it my Bloody Annihilation Tank Spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcE0qu0Isb0tzAZhxbzhZ0g)


The main purpose of this spec is moderate dps and high threat generation. With my improved chance to crit in the blood tree plus my beefed up Obliterates and the Annihilation talent, I have nearly unmatched threat generation in this spec.

A couple notes:

Rune Tap and Improved Rune Tap (1) are personal preferences. If you prefer you can easily drop Rune Tap for Two Hand Weapon Spec. I am a utility whore and I love being able to pop Rune Tap and offer 10% additional healing to my party with the Glyph of Rune Tap. Again, just a preference.

The other thing I did with this spec is picked up Lichborne as another tanking cooldown. The chance to miss is very nice, especially on the harder hitting bosses like Patchwerk and Maexxna.

Satorri
01-26-2009, 08:32 AM
Two-hand spec is nice for boosting damage/threat, but Rune Tap is amazing self-heals, great survivability, especially with Vamp Blood. My preference is always Rune Tap as well. =)

Grizle
01-26-2009, 01:47 PM
Agree on Imp Rune Tap, this has kept me alive many times when running with a weak(er) healer and in a few cases allowed me to survive long enough to finish a boss (5 man) even though the rest of the group was down.

Deathknell
01-28-2009, 06:40 AM
This is my Blood Tank spec. I modified this one a bit and I quite like the tps/dps. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMVhhIsb0tuhZhxbzhZct) its a 48/14/9 build with Lichborne and Epidemic. Survivability is quite good found this out when i Had to MT Naxx 10 for the first time as I Usually OT. :D

Oh yeah Rotation
Single Target - IT-PS-HS-HS-OBL-Rune dump RS Whenever its up 2nd Rotation IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS-RP Dump

Multi Target - DnD-IT-PS-Pest 2nd Rottation OB-HS-Pest-OB Blood Boil is also good for whenu have a blood rune and diseases on all targets great for threat

Varucard
01-30-2009, 08:09 AM
One question: does drw generate threat for you, or its own threat? Cuz if it generated threat for us, this would be a GREAT way to get a good jump on threat in the beginning of a fight.

Also just curious, i see everyone saying that they generate great tps. I'm curious to know what ur tps was as non-blood spec, then as blood spec.

Satorri
01-31-2009, 05:34 AM
Dancing Rune Weapon, Gargoyle, Ghouls, and Bloodworms are all considered their own entities and have their own threat. The threat is never transferred to the DK, in any way.

And personally, I do better on threat with Unholy, but that's largely just because I have a lot more experience and practice.

Midha
02-01-2009, 03:15 PM
I've actually been tweaking my talent spec a bit recently and I came up with http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2355021533003313201211013013250000100 000000000000000000205200000000000000000000000000&glyph=200809050406

I'll explain some of my choices.

-I avoided Scent of blood since I'm using RS pretty much whenever its up, which replaces the normal hit and thus doesn't provide any RP. It was nice to have while leveling or in dodge/parry low gear tho.

-Since I want to be able to use Death Runes for HS spam or Pest/BB spam I knew I needed either Oblit or DS in my rotation. I felt that going DS would allow me to...
A) get more use out of VB which should be up pretty much every CD as blood tank spec
B) free up points that would have gone into Annihilation

- The selection of both MoM and Vic Strikes was to increase DS with the passive bonus of increased Dps fom my main BloodRune and UnholyRune dump spells.

-Epidemic is obvious. Getting 4 GCDs more out of pestilences frees my Blood runes up for more HS and BB.

- Lichborne. An excellent tanking talent. Combine this with DRW and MofB and in a 3 minute period. I can pop one of ea during the 30 sec lull b/w VB being up.
ex. VB...Lichborne...VB...DRW...VB... MoB.

-DRW. I felt it was important to mention that this one talent point is so powerful there is no reason you should be skipping it. Popping dbl hysteria on your highest dps warrior/cat is insane (of course make sure the healers are aware when you do this). Alot has been said about DRW being retarded and atking from the front.. it does... so be aware of that when u use it.

-Finally I skipped both WotN and BG since I usually end up sitting at around 60-80% health in a raid situation and there simply isn't enough reason for me to spend 8 points that wont even increase my tps/surv most of the time.


My rotation
AoE : (HoW) DnD,PS,IT,Pest,RS,DC,BB(a),DS,(b),PS,IT,Pest. etc.

Boss: (How) DND at range, VB(c),PS,IT,RS,DC,ERW(d), HS,HS,DS, etc.

* I recently specced into Epidemic so i may be missing an extra DS/BB between PS/IT reapplications

(a)= If my healer is sucking or got silenced this is where i would pop VB and maybe MoB or LB depending on how bad it looked
(b)= this where i put an extra BB or Pest depending on if new mobs have arrived
(c)= this initial rotation may seem weird but it does several things. It gets my Blade barrier up, it allows healers to hold off an extra sec for me to get threat without me dieing, and it gets my initial DS stronger .. again easing initial healer strain
(d)= yes i am using Empower RW really early..but for initial threat every sec counts. I use it early so that i can use it twice in a fight. (If that makes sense)

If at all possible I try to find a critter near a boss and taunt it.. starting a boss at 100 RP really helps.

Satorri
02-03-2009, 06:53 AM
The issue with DRW has never been it being a wasted ability or not performing well. For my money, once you have decent tanking gear, I don't even particularly care if it attacks from the front, which it can, though doesn't always do.

The reason we don't take it as tanks is that:
1.) It does absolutely nothing for you as a tank. No threat, no feedback for heals/survival. The only thing it offers is a boost to total raid damage. If you want/need that for your raids, fine, but it is in no way a buff to tanking.
2.) Most of the time for our tank specs, we are making 20 tiny choices about where to put our points and I don't know a single tank who can get every talent he wants. Usually we're scrapping for every point we can to get the most tank value out of our specs, and since this is not a buff to our tanking, it is easy to drop. Summon Gargoyle is the same.

Eross92
02-04-2009, 02:23 PM
Ashern
you are the first person I've seen with a similar build to mine
I love the idea of having ALL the Stam and STR bonuses, but i dropped the Blood Gorge talent, since i dont find it too useful, also i made some changes to to your original build.
Making it just like my build of choice, here is the link
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcE0qI0IcbRzuZhg0zZfg0bz0o)

Tell me what you think :)

Urrick
02-06-2009, 05:30 AM
The coming change to Sudden Doom would make that talent an almost must for me. A set it and forget it automatic crit DC? Yes please.

Actually looking at something like...
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355021531003313200051310003050200030 000000000000000000035200000100000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000

Feanorr
02-08-2009, 05:27 AM
I gave a try to blood tanking, a bit suspicious at first, but I like it a lot. With the current bosses, more HP, a cd with even more HP and a boost in heal, a talent to reduce big hits and a self heal of 10k+ seem to be great.

So I got a few questions:

What glyphs are you using as Blood tanks people?

Currently I am using vampiric one (obviously), Runestrike and Runetap (with Improved rune tap 3/3).


Another question:

What sigil? I dont feel the +crit is great, so I dunno; maybe the +90 to BS and HS (yea the old blue one ^^)?

lolbro
02-08-2009, 11:19 PM
I've tanked pretty much all the current content except eoe with my current spec, something I've worked up over weekly 10s and 25s after 3.0.8. It's been very successful for me.

33133hp in frost presence.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Lolbro)

The build's strong suits are the self heals, including glyphed VB and Rune Tap, which is pretty useful stuff. Aoe aggro is no problem with some pestilence spam. I'm personally a believer that the reduced damage below 35% isn't worth an additional 2% sta and str. This is just a preference thing though and if anyone had good numbers on why it wasn't as good, I'd love to hear 'em.

My other glyph is +20% d n d damage.

Also as long as your threat is okay, the defense sigil is the best tanking one.

Ashern
02-09-2009, 05:38 AM
Ashern
you are the first person I've seen with a similar build to mine
I love the idea of having ALL the Stam and STR bonuses, but i dropped the Blood Gorge talent, since i dont find it too useful, also i made some changes to to your original build.
Making it just like my build of choice, here is the link
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcE0qI0IcbRzuZhg0zZfg0bz0o)

Tell me what you think :)

Yes the synergy with massive stamina on a blood build is really nice. Massive Effective Health values in frost pressence. Plus the synergy with wotn from higher stamina and vamp blood is very sweet for main tanking bosses. The reason I took blood gorged is as a tank even if I am fighting a really hard hitting boss like an enraged grand widow or patchwerk etc. I am usually above 75% life. The 10% extra dmg for me is 10% more threat. That plus the expertise has been working out really well as I am relying on more physical dmg than an unholy spec or frost spec would. How has your threat been in your spec? I will have to revaluate its blood gorged value once 3.1 hits and the talent changes.

Jandon
02-09-2009, 04:50 PM
I have to say, I was excited with the new Blood changes. I tried out Blood spec for almost 2 months, and I've come to a few conclusions.

Keep in mind that I'm not a 25 man raider, I don't like them and don't think they require the synergy that 10 mans require in any facet of raiding.

1)Blood gives you a good solid HP buffer and with the changes to overall mitigation, they are great for off-tanking. However, when dealing with MT'ing during events (ESPECIALLY when dealing with Achievement groups), they just don't cut it. The extra HP doesn't offset the lack of overall mitigation vs other tanks.

2)There isn't a reliable RP dump. DC is ok, but it's a GCD that gives you very little damage and even less threat. So, DC is really only good when you can't use any skills.

3)The starting threat from your Blood rotation is great, but sometimes it's followed by 3-4 seconds of not being able to use any rune necessary skills, thus reducing overall threat.

4)There is no increase in damage skill such as Merciless Combat, which isn't required, but considering the highest DPS classes in the game get a DPS ramp up around that %, it helps alot.

5)Blood still lacks AoE tankability. Sure, 2-3, even 4-5, targets are easy to deal with with the new Heart Strike, but anything over that you start running into problems. God only knows why Blizz decided that most pulls will have 4+ mobs.

Just like to say that Blood will probably be a really good spec when you do alot of tanking and grind/quest in the middle. There are many talents in Blood that you can take up with the Tier1-Trio that make Blood very attractive for people who don't want to min-max their spec every time they tank/pve.

I'm currently switching back to Frost, it seems to offer the best mitigation+ohshit buttons (which, I might add, are still required, at least for what I do.).

Feanorr
02-10-2009, 01:55 AM
1)Blood gives you a good solid HP buffer and with the changes to overall mitigation, they are great for off-tanking. However, when dealing with MT'ing during events (ESPECIALLY when dealing with Achievement groups), they just don't cut it. The extra HP doesn't offset the lack of overall mitigation vs other tanks.

What mitigation do you lost compared to other DK tanking tree? 3% of avoidance compared to frost, that's all. And DK already have more than enough avoidance. And you gain VoTN who is a great mitigation talent against what matter the most: the big hits.
What is killing tank actually is the big hits, or the special abilities. Like sartharion breath, Gluth decimate, Maexxna web+enrage, patchwerk hatefull strike, etc. And for all that, what matter isnt the overall damage you take but the capacity to stay alive for a few secs until the healer overheal you (without any mana trouble). And for that more health and a talent that reduce dangerous hit (i.e. hits that put you under 35% HP) is better than a bit more avoidance imo; not counting a self heal of 10K+ every 30sec.






2)There isn't a reliable RP dump. DC is ok, but it's a GCD that gives you very little damage and even less threat. So, DC is really only good when you can't use any skills.The best RP dump is Runestrike anyway; so unless you got a prot paladin to give you BoS, most of your Rp should go into RS, whatever your spec is (that is if you are main tanking)



3)The starting threat from your Blood rotation is great, but sometimes it's followed by 3-4 seconds of not being able to use any rune necessary skills, thus reducing overall threat.I dunno what you rotation is but I dont have any 3-4sec lap in mine:

IT-PS-HS-HS-OB // IT-PS-HS-HS-HS-HS and repeat; without epidemic. I barelly have time for DC (and most of the time no RP for it either, if I am MT).
And my single target threat is similar as blood and frost; probably even a bit better as blood.



4)There is no increase in damage skill such as Merciless Combat, which isn't required, but considering the highest DPS classes in the game get a DPS ramp up around that %, it helps alot.First, I dont like merciless combat; when the mob are at 35% I usually have a good advance on threat already, so I dont need it. But if you really want an agro boost as blood, take Hysteria; the damage wont kill you (1% every sec will be eaten by the overheal).



5)Blood still lacks AoE tankability. Sure, 2-3, even 4-5, targets are easy to deal with with the new Heart Strike, but anything over that you start running into problems. God only knows why Blizz decided that most pulls will have 4+ mobs.That's true; blood aoe sucks, compared to unholy and frost; but it still better than war and probably druid aoe too, and at least it still more than enough for any AOE situation (i.e. mostly trash mobs).



Just like to say that Blood will probably be a really good spec when you do alot of tanking and grind/quest in the middle. There are many talents in Blood that you can take up with the Tier1-Trio that make Blood very attractive for people who don't want to min-max their spec every time they tank/pve.

I'm currently switching back to Frost, it seems to offer the best mitigation+ohshit buttons (which, I might add, are still required, at least for what I do.).
I dont agree at all; with current content and current tanking situation, I think blood is the min-max spec. Simply because, again with current content, the overall damage isnt the most important.
Think about it this way: Druid vs DK. Druid take a lot more damage than us; last time I compared my overall damage with our druid's one (who have the same level of stuff), he was almost taking 2 time more damage than me. But it doesnt matter, cause he got enough HP to survive the critical situations of the current raid bosses and healers dont have any mana trouble.

So in my opinions, at the moment what matter the most is the EH, the ability to take huge damage in a short period of time, or without any heal under a longer period of time (like with Loatheb or maexxna).

And for that, I think blood is better than others spec; because of the HP, because of vampiric blood (even more HP AND easier to heal), because of WotN (great against heavy hit), because of the self heal (exemple: gluth decimate, Vampiric blood before, rune tap after and you are at 20K health).

Oh and you was talking about oh shit button, I have the same number of Oh Shit button as blood than frost (yes I got lichborn); the only difference in our CD is Vamp blood vs UA and +6sec to IBF.



If the futur content is more drastic on heal and damage taken (and I hope it will be) then yes blood will probably fall under; but we arent there yet and anyway our class will probably get many changes before Ulduar come; so we will see how it is at this time.


Feanorr


PS: I was really sceptic about blood tank at first; and I liked my frost tank spec a lot. But since I tried blood, I didnt run into one single situation where I wished I was frost and in many situation I was glad to be blood; exept for AOE, but AOE is not a primary concern imo; I dont care about trash and the few bosses fight where AOE is required, blood is still enough (and better than others tanks exept pal)

BattleFreak
02-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Hi, was wondering if this blood tank spec would be considered a good one.
48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j)

Currently my DK is lvl 78 so I only removed 2 points from the Morbidity (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49565) talent and will add them back on when I finish my last 2 lvls.

I have been a Unholy tank for small bit before I respeced to blood, and I got to say I don't think I'll go back. Blood just has this "fun" factor in it. High crits, self healing and alot of damage.

Rotation I have been doing is the same common ones everyone does.

IT (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909) > PS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49921) > HS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55262) > HS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55262) > either DC (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49895) or RS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56815).
Then after that IT (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909) > PS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49921) > DS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49924) > HS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55262) > HS (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55262).

Sometimes I would mix it up with the blood runes. Maybe pop Vampiric Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55233) and then Rune Tap (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48982) together to get aton of health back. And always start the fight with Icebound Fortitude (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48792) and then use Lichborne (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49039) as an "Oh Crap!" ablility.

So asking others, how is my spec and rotation?

Feanorr
02-10-2009, 07:18 AM
Hi, was wondering if this blood tank spec would be considered a good one.
48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j)

No, it's not... not spending any of your talents is not a good idea :p (your link show an empty talent trees ;) )

About your rotation, it miss a DS or OB in the first part to get some death rune for the 2nd part; something like this:

IT/PS/HS/HS/DS or OB then IT/PS/HS/HS/HS/HS.
That's what I use without epidemic.

I am not sure what rotation the guys with epidemic use, but you have to use the death rune

BattleFreak
02-10-2009, 07:59 AM
No, it's not... not spending any of your talents is not a good idea :p (your link show an empty talent trees ;) )

About your rotation, it miss a DS or OB in the first part to get some death rune for the 2nd part; something like this:

IT/PS/HS/HS/DS or OB then IT/PS/HS/HS/HS/HS.
That's what I use without epidemic.

I am not sure what rotation the guys with epidemic use, but you have to use the death rune

Opps sorry I forgot to lock the talents.
48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMqc0IsbMtuhZhg0zZfg)

In this spec I didn't choose Death Rune Mastery, because I didn't want to deal with deathrunes messing up my rotation.

AugusteIcewind
02-10-2009, 08:21 AM
I've been toying with this spec lately.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Death Knight -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=005502153300331320120131000305200 01000000000000000000002351000301001000000000000000 00)

It has the essentials, 5/5/5 for avoidance.

Walking through the three trees:

Unholy

Morbidity 3/3: Increases damage from the occasional deathcoil when tanking less than four mobs. Greater than that, in general it's all taken up by rune strike. Also, it boosts blood's AoE threat weakness a little by reducing the cooldown on death and decay.

Vicious Strikes 2/2: This spec picks up dark conviction and bloody vengeance and leaves out annihilation, (see below). Also, currently I have the two set bonus on T7, which increases plague strike's critical chance by 10%. Thus, death strike is part of the rotation, and plague strike is needed to keep up the second disease. The extra 16% (through set bonus and this talent) critical strike chance for plague strike will help keep bloody vengeance active, effectively increasing threat by 9%.

Epidemic 1/2: Extra disease time. 3 seconds instead of the full 6 seconds only because personally I end up clipping (refreshing early) my diseases anyway.

Outbreak 3/3: Blood boil is a large part of this spec's AoE threat- even with the reduced cooldown on death and decay, I find it unreliable. With death runes and blood tap, it's possible to blood boil 7-8 times in a row if done properly. Also, increasing death strike damage is a plus, the extra healing is nice.

Corpse Explosion 1/1: Some people will laugh at this. Understandable, but for the same 40 runic power as a deathcoil, you can hit any number of targets instead of just one.

Shadow of Death 1/1: 2% extra stamina. Enough said.

Skipped: Unholy Command- we have two taunts. After playing a prot paladin for a very long time, I find this talent unnecessary. Virulence- I haven't noticed any of my diseases "missing". Again, personally I find it unnecessary. Necrosis- No.

Frost

Improved Icy Touch 3/3: Another weakness with death knights is that they lack front-end threat. 30% extra icy touch damage combats this.

Icy Reach 2/2: The extra range is nice for pulling. Swappable for points into Black Ice if you please.

Lichborne 1/1: 25% avoidance and a fear break on a three minute cooldown. Essential. Also, fun to be macroed to cast with an avoidance trinket. (#show lichborne | /use 14 | /cast lichborne) 13 is your first trinket slot, 14 is your second.

Skipped: Black Ice- Only affects Icy Touch and Frost Fever with this spec. Taking points into this might increase AoE threat, but I find it unnecessary. Annihilation- Found better places to put the points, as blood's single target threat is already fine. Nerves of Cold Steel- No.

Blood

Bladed Armor 5/5: You have lots of armor as a tank. Now you also have lots of attack power.

Two Handed Weapon Specialization 2/2: Better than Scent of Blood, Butchery or Subversion as runic power is not an issue with this spec, and as above the extra crit chance is covered to keep Bloody Vengeance active. This just amplifies BV's effect.

Death Rune Mastery 3/3: As above, this is good for blood boiling many times in a row. It also gives leeway on using death and decay, pestilence, or anything else you can think of in an emergency.

Dark Conviction 5/5: Threat is good. Critical chance adds threat. 5% more is good.

Rune Tap 1/1, Improved Rune Tap 3/3: Some will scoff at this. Think though, how many times, as another tanking class, have you sat at less than 10% health waiting for someone to heal you? This allows you to take control of that. 20% of your health bar every 30 seconds. Glyphed, it makes it party-wide, and given that even one of them is hurt, this adds to your threat. If you have 35,000 hit points, this heals for 7,000.

Bloody Strikes 3/3: Increased Heart Strike damage. As for the pestilence damage, it's being removed in 3.1.0, so I'm not sure if Blizz will rework this talent or just remove that from the description. At any rate, threat boost.

Veteran of the Third War 3/3: Yes.

Mark of Blood 1/1: I'm keeping this for now until it's nerfed in 3.1.0 to be capped at a reference HP of around 10,000. I'll likely drop it for something random when this happens. Currently though, it's amazing. A lot of times a boss will heal me for more than it's hitting me for.

Bloody Vengeance 3/3: 9% extra threat once active. Yes.

Abomination's Might 2/2: Increases your threat and physical damage of raid members. A great buff for you and your raid.

Blood Aura 2/2: Not so much for you as it is for your raid and your healers. A great buff for your raid, swappable for something else if you're greedy.

Hysteria 1/1: Am I going to take something that will damage me? Yes, if I'm off tanking. Or if I'm main tanking, give this little bombshell to your hunter for large misdirects. Or life-tap happy warlocks.

Vampiric Blood 1/1: Lifegiving Gem + Amplify Magic on steroids. Yes.

Heart Strike 1/1: Is better than blood strike, and you're already this far into the tree. Yes.

Will of the Necropolis 3/3: Keep in mind that some bosses might hit you for upwards of 15,000, (Patchwerk anyone?), and raid buffed your hit points are likely in the 35,000 range. 35% of your health, then, would be 12,250. So if you're sitting at 17,249 hit points and are hit for 15,000, you're actually hit for 13043. Mitigating approximately 2,000 damage. Not an enormous amount, but over time this will save your healers' mana pools. Bear in mind the nerf to spirit's mana regen coming soon.

Skipped: Spell Deflection- single target spells don't happen too much, and they're not very beefy in the damage department when they are. Plus, anti-magic shield is more reliable. Bloodworms- You're finished with levelling at this point, likely. Sudden Doom- A 4/8/12/16/20% chance to do more single target threat, which you're already good at. Might of Mograine- would be nice, but you're a tank and not dps: WotN is better.

-------------
In closing, this spec is great for taking on large beasties who try to squash you into the ground. It has an 8% overall stamina increase, when coupled with Frost Presence is amazing. A myriad of ONOES buttons. Great single target threat is the nature of blood tanking, and thus mediocre AoE threat. However through increasing the damage on bloodboil with Outbreak and Bloody Vengeance, and the ability to chain bloodboil with Death Rune Mastery, this spec compensates enough to make AoE threat adequate. Played correctly, this can be a very strong spec.

It does require paying attention, however.

TLDR: I'm bored and the servers are down.

jaydee
02-10-2009, 09:54 AM
What mitigation do you lost compared to other DK tanking tree? 3% of avoidance compared to frost, that's all. And DK already have more than enough avoidance. And you gain VoTN who is a great mitigation talent against what matter the most: the big hits.
What is killing tank actually is the big hits, or the special abilities. Like sartharion breath, Gluth decimate, Maexxna web+enrage, patchwerk hatefull strike, etc. And for all that, what matter isnt the overall damage you take but the capacity to stay alive for a few secs until the healer overheal you (without any mana trouble). And for that more health and a talent that reduce dangerous hit (i.e. hits that put you under 35% HP) is better than a bit more avoidance imo; not counting a self heal of 10K+ every 30sec.
Lichborne, Unbreakable Armor and the extra 6 seconds to Icebound Fortitude come into mind here. With the four-piece T7 bonus, you'll be getting your IBF to 21 secs versus 15 secs in Blood. Unbreakable Armor + avoidance trinkets + Blade Barrier gives you another 10/20 seconds of really high avoidance. Lichborne on a 2 minute cooldown. It's just you get hit for less a lot longer, and get the chance NOT to be hit longer as well.

Also, the AoE threat is just not as easy to maintain when you're Blood versus when you're Frost or Unholy. Killing Machine/Chill + Howling Blast on multiple mob pulls just gives your DPS lots of headroom to go all out for the quick burn down.

Feanorr
02-10-2009, 10:06 AM
Opps sorry I forgot to lock the talents.
48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMqc0IsbMtuhZhg0zZfg)

In this spec I didn't choose Death Rune Mastery, because I didn't want to deal with deathrunes messing up my rotation.

How Death rune would mess up you rotation? it simply allow you to use more HS; it's essential imo.

Blood gorget: I dont see any reason to not take it in your spec. I know some skip it to be able to get shadow of death, but you are not so you should take it. Exept if you are already expertise capped without it and without any enchant/gems.
I didnt do the math but there is a good chance that the 5 expertise alone give you more threat than sudden doom

Feanorr
02-10-2009, 10:25 AM
Lichborne, Unbreakable Armor and the extra 6 seconds to Icebound Fortitude come into mind here. With the four-piece T7 bonus, you'll be getting your IBF to 21 secs versus 15 secs in Blood. Unbreakable Armor + avoidance trinkets + Blade Barrier gives you another 10/20 seconds of really high avoidance. Lichborne on a 2 minute cooldown. It's just you get hit for less a lot longer, and get the chance NOT to be hit longer as well.

I got Lichborne as well with my blood spec. And anyway it's more a oh shit button than an increase in avoidance/mitigation.

So UA and the +6sec to IBF versus 30sec of Vampiric blood. So yea, if we speak strictly of mitigation/avoidance, Vampiric blood is none of that. But if we speak of survivability, Vampiric blood is better than UA and it last 10 more sec (glyphed) so the +6sec of IBF dont compensate imo (blood got 42sec of CD, frost 38).
And there is also WotN and rune tap in the blood tree to increase survivability, versus just Frigid dreadplate.





Also, the AoE threat is just not as easy to maintain when you're Blood versus when you're Frost or Unholy. Killing Machine/Chill + Howling Blast on multiple mob pulls just gives your DPS lots of headroom to go all out for the quick burn down.

Yea, I already agreed about the AOE; but as I said, it's enough for the few "AOE bosses". But yea, for trash frost and unholy is better, but honestly, who care?

BattleFreak
02-10-2009, 10:46 AM
How Death rune would mess up you rotation? it simply allow you to use more HS; it's essential imo.

Blood gorget: I dont see any reason to not take it in your spec. I know some skip it to be able to get shadow of death, but you are not so you should take it. Exept if you are already expertise capped without it and without any enchant/gems.
I didnt do the math but there is a good chance that the 5 expertise alone give you more threat than sudden doom

If you didn't know it, Blood Gorged (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61158), is going to be changed in 3.1 patch. It will no longer have expertise but amor pent. and to what I read that's not all that great for blood tanking. So I added the 5 points into Sudden Doom (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49532), which will get buffed that you don't need to cast the spell your self anymore.
So I decided, inorder to save gold, and I really wanted to respec now, just do it prepairing for the patch.

Death Runes is just a play style really. And in mine I like rotation control. Its hard to really explain but when I see the death runes and I start to think to spam HS, but after I spammed it and I have no runes on, and the disease is about to fail, I have a few secs of fight time that I'm just auto attacking.

This isn't a perfect spec of course, I'm still testing it. Need to do a few runs first as it. If I feel that I need some death runes to help out in BB spam or something else I can adust it.

jaydee
02-10-2009, 06:15 PM
I got Lichborne as well with my blood spec. And anyway it's more a oh shit button than an increase in avoidance/mitigation.

Agree with this, but with the way DK tanking is designed, +avoidance CDs are a core part of it. So the more CDs at your disposal, the better.


So UA and the +6sec to IBF versus 30sec of Vampiric blood. So yea, if we speak strictly of mitigation/avoidance, Vampiric blood is none of that. But if we speak of survivability, Vampiric blood is better than UA and it last 10 more sec (glyphed) so the +6sec of IBF dont compensate imo (blood got 42sec of CD, frost 38).
And there is also WotN and rune tap in the blood tree to increase survivability, versus just Frigid dreadplate.

My thinking is that the more hits you avoid, and the more damage you mitigate, the less healing you'll require. Thus making it easier for your healers. I think even if you have a large HP pool, but if your healers see that you keep taking big hits, they won't really care if you can rune tap or have vampiric blood or can mitigate strikes that will take you below 35%. In fact, they don't want to see your HP reaching those limits. I think making your healers and the rest of the raid rely on those puts everyone in an unnecessary risk.


Yea, I already agreed about the AOE; but as I said, it's enough for the few "AOE bosses". But yea, for trash frost and unholy is better, but honestly, who care?

Mobs that aren't hitting me must mean that they're hitting someone else. I don't want to risk it and hope that they're hitting the OT, or some other plate wearing dps. Better AoE threat usually means your DPS can go crazy with AoEs and do quicker burn downs. That means less healing, less tanking and less damage taken for the raid. Why would you not care?

Feanorr
02-10-2009, 07:24 PM
If you didn't know it, Blood Gorged (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61158), is going to be changed in 3.1 patch. It will no longer have expertise but amor pent. and to what I read that's not all that great for blood tanking. So I added the 5 points into Sudden Doom (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49532), which will get buffed that you don't need to cast the spell your self anymore.
So I decided, inorder to save gold, and I really wanted to respec now, just do it prepairing for the patch.

Ok it make sence; and yes I agree with 3.1, blood gorget wont be great for blood tank, IF it goes live like it. But a lot of thing can happen before 3.1 go live (think about HB without CD, I planned an all spec and stuff for it then it gone bybye; gladly I just planned it on paper ^^).


Death Runes is just a play style really. And in mine I like rotation control. Its hard to really explain but when I see the death runes and I start to think to spam HS, but after I spammed it and I have no runes on, and the disease is about to fail, I have a few secs of fight time that I'm just auto attacking.I dont agree about death runes being just a play style; it's an increase in DPS/threat; 2xHS make more damage/threat than OB or DS.
About spamming too much HS and having no rune to refresh diseases, yes it can happen if you loose your rotation, but if you follow it, it shouldnt.

But yea, the best way is always to test it yourself; I am just giving my impression after my personnal test.



Agree with this, but with the way DK tanking is designed, +avoidance CDs are a core part of it. So the more CDs at your disposal, the better.
Hum, the 1min CDs is a part of our mitigation, I agree. But 3min is too long to be anything else than an oh shit button for me (like a shield wall).




My thinking is that the more hits you avoid, and the more damage you mitigate, the less healing you'll require. Thus making it easier for your healers. As I already said earlier, that's not what I see as a tank and the tank leader of my raid (by tank leader I mean that I choose who tank what boss).
- Healer dont have mana trouble; there is so many regen running around.
- if it was true, Dk would be the best tank in any situation (we take a lot less damage than other tanks); and druid would be the worst. And it's not the case.

Of course I dont mean we should ignore all avoidance/mitigation and go for only stam, but going full avoidance is not the way either imo.




I think even if you have a large HP pool, but if your healers see that you keep taking big hits, they won't really care if you can rune tap or have vampiric blood or can mitigate strikes that will take you below 35%. In fact, they don't want to see your HP reaching those limits. I think making your healers and the rest of the raid rely on those puts everyone in an unnecessary risk.That's not what WotN is for; of course I wont ask or even want that my healer let me go to 35% HP; but it happens and it's in this situations that we (tanks) are in danger.
We dont die because we took too much damage overall and/or because healers was oom; I didnt see any bosses where it's a problem. We die when:
- we take a big hit (sartharion/malygos breath, patchwerk hatefull strike, gluth decimate) followed by another normal one (or 2) before healer get time to heal
- healer wasnt able to heal for a period (Maexxna "web stun", Loatheb aura, etc.)

And for that, a bigger HP pool, WotN, Vampiric Blood and Rune tap are great.

About rune tap, my healers dont count on it of course, must may probably not even know I got one, but I still use it in many situations:

- Gluth: I use VB a few sec before decimate, Rune tap right after. Most of the time my healer will get me some instant right after as well (with a +35% heal bonus btw), but if they dont, well I am at 20K HP by myself. Hell, I could even throw IBF as well at every decimate but I really dont need it.
- Loatheb: a rune tap every 2 necrotic aura; yes there is a chance that it go in overheal but it still help; plus it heal my group for 10%; better than nothing when you dont have many group healer.
Etc.


Anyway, I already said all that, and I am feeling to repeat myself (always afraid to not be clear, especially in english ;)), so I will stop. But, one last repeat :p, since I went blood, I didnt find a fight where I was MT and I regreted to not be frost or unholy; and I found many ones where I was glad to be blood.

BattleFreak
02-11-2009, 06:29 AM
Well I tested the spec out last night. Did several instances.
With this blood tank spec I never once had a problem loosing threat to a single target, but wow was it hard to get aoe threat! I had to work getting all that mobs down.

Did VH and if you know about that one portal on the left side when you are going in, on the top floor. I ran that place twice and every single dang time that portal popped up, when the one after it was on the other side of the room, so I always got to that portal late and the mobs that come out of it split off in the 2 directions. So every time that happened, I had a hard time getting aggro of the group. I would D&D the ramp out and then try to get the ones coming down the broken wall.

Other than the aoe threat problem of blood, the self healing rocks!
We once almost had a wipe on a bad pull in Drak'Tharon and got 2 groups (the pulls before the final boss, where the trolls are fighting the undead).
So while I was working getting all the mobs rounded up, 2 of our dps died. With the self healing I was able to keep my self alive and some how managed to get all the mobs dead.

Having deathrunes not in the spec, I admit, did hurt in some places. When I had no runes up, I couldn't only auto attack (or of course DC if I have enough RP). So what I'm thinking of doing is switching a 3 talent spec somewheres and added it to Death Rune Mastery.

So maybe something like this...48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMqh0IsbMtuhZhg0zZfg). Only change here is I took off the improved rune tap talents. How much of a change is that really? Or do I need to take the 3 talents from somewhere else?

Feanorr
02-11-2009, 08:39 AM
You can always take them of bood aura and mark of blood; both arent really great.

BattleFreak
02-11-2009, 09:01 AM
Ok I see where Mark of Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49005) really wouldn't be all that helpful for a blood tank. One you are using a blood rune that you could us for a HS instead. And I read that they did alot of changes to it so its not as powerful as it used to be.
The Blood Aura (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50371) I wonder about.
While tanking we don't have the blood presence for the self healing of course, so what is left for the passive healing while damage buffs?

So what I'm left with is this...48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMqI0Icb0tuhZhg0zZfg).

So now debating about blood aura. I liked the passive healing.

Edit: Ok I was able to fit in blood aura.
I was told that Two-Handed Weapon Specialization (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55108) really wasn't that great of a tanking talent.
heh would like to hear more about that.
So now its...48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0qI0IcbMtuhZhg0zZfg).

AugusteIcewind
02-13-2009, 07:48 PM
Well I tested the spec out last night. Did several instances.
With this blood tank spec I never once had a problem loosing threat to a single target, but wow was it hard to get aoe threat! I had to work getting all that mobs down.

Did VH and if you know about that one portal on the left side when you are going in, on the top floor. I ran that place twice and every single dang time that portal popped up, when the one after it was on the other side of the room, so I always got to that portal late and the mobs that come out of it split off in the 2 directions. So every time that happened, I had a hard time getting aggro of the group. I would D&D the ramp out and then try to get the ones coming down the broken wall.

Other than the aoe threat problem of blood, the self healing rocks!
We once almost had a wipe on a bad pull in Drak'Tharon and got 2 groups (the pulls before the final boss, where the trolls are fighting the undead).
So while I was working getting all the mobs rounded up, 2 of our dps died. With the self healing I was able to keep my self alive and some how managed to get all the mobs dead.

Having deathrunes not in the spec, I admit, did hurt in some places. When I had no runes up, I couldn't only auto attack (or of course DC if I have enough RP). So what I'm thinking of doing is switching a 3 talent spec somewheres and added it to Death Rune Mastery.

So maybe something like this...48/11/12 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMqh0IsbMtuhZhg0zZfg). Only change here is I took off the improved rune tap talents. How much of a change is that really? Or do I need to take the 3 talents from somewhere else?

You can change the spec up to get better AoE threat. As you've said, your single target threat is great, AoE threat leaves some to be desired. Why then, take sudden doom and might of mograine? Pick up outbreak and death rune mastery, and spam blood boil.

I haven't found a way to not have that lull where all your runes are on cooldown, at least initially. Given no death runes at the start of a pull- DnD IT PS Pest -blood tap, blood boil, then either death coil or if there's a nearby corpse use corpse explosion. Summoning a ghoul to corpse explode works in a pinch, too. If blood tap is on cooldown, though, there's a lull where I'm kind of standing around, like pre-3.0 prot pally.