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Oakes
01-12-2009, 09:45 PM
Hey guys long time lurker new poster here.

Anyway I was tanking as unholy for the past month until I started doing some 10/25 mans and had problems holding aggro on single boss mobs. I've been reading and trying to figure out what to do to fix these problems and have decided on respeccing frost since the 3.0.8 changes to KM and HB seem like they will help a great deal.

I've come up with this spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGgxz0edMhoVosx0xh)

My question is what do you guys think I should do with my last 3 points? I was considering throwing them all into Dark Conviction since my crit chance is pretty measily, about 6% in tank gear, but I haven't seen many people going into DC though so maybe it isn't the right choice. This leaves me with 2HWS and a final point for who knows what.

Morbidity might be a possibility but I won't be using DC much with this build, and I'm not sure if I really need the shorter cooldown for d&d. I was hoping a spammable HB will be able to replace d&d in most situations.

I don't need epidemic since this build uses a much shorter rotation and I will be using IT more often than in other rotations.

Any other thoughts? Great site guys let's hope DK's get the buffs we need.

m
01-12-2009, 11:06 PM
Virulence is a waste, pvp talent.
you did not spec annihilation or Imp icy talons. build is fail with out those.

You're talking about having threat issues when you're not even specing morbidity. Dropping constant DnD is one of the easiest ways to keep threat building through out a fight, single target or group pulls.

One of the reasons Frost is viable is the aura. You skipped that as well.

If you are going to spec more than 5 points into blood as a tank you should at least get rune tap and get the glyph of rune tap for 10% heals to the party. I cant count the number of times I've saved wipes with a simple 10% heal.

You're wasting points in Killing Machine and Icy Reach.

After looking at your gear, I noticed you dont have Swordshattering on your weapon. Pretty much req if you plan on tanking. DK tankin is about avoidance not absorbtion.

A few suggestions on your gear.
Helm: Ground Tremor Helm - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37633)

Boots: Greaves of Ancient Evil - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37618)

Chest: Heroes' Dreadnaught Breastplate - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39611)

Hands: Heroes' Scourgeborne Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39624) / Fireproven Gauntlets - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44183)

Bracers: Bracers of the Herald - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37620)

A few ring suggestions over Band of torture:
Titanium Earthguard Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42643)
Woeful Band - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=38617)
Keystone Great-Ring - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37784)



You have been focusing too much on being a meat shield and not an avoidance tank, which is what being a death knight tank is all about.

Take all of this as simple suggestion. Most of this gear is what I picked up prior to my Naxx 10/25 gear.

Side note: why couldn't you hold threat as unholy. That's one of the few strong points of unholy. Could it be your rotation?

Maegul
01-13-2009, 05:22 AM
I beg to differ with m's assesment. Seems like a pretty straight forward tank spec focusing on HB over Obl for threat in the post-patch days.

The aura is handy, but if you usually have a paladin or a (resto) druid along, you can get pretty much the same level of resistance from them. I certainly wouldn't call it mandatory in the face of potential threat increases if you have those types of issues.

Killing Machine changing to a PPM will make it more valuable for 2-handed builds, and in normal heroic tank gear, should probably be good for another 4000-5000 DPMinute on it's own (the threat from which get boosted by Frost Presence). In that vein, Virulence is a decent choice, since HB, your main AoE threat skill, and IT which you depend on having up, both work off spellhit. Taking virulence means you are close to hitcapped for spells just with the melee hit cap. And hit is a good threat increaser.

As your avoidance goes up, a good number of your melee white swings will be replaced by Rune Strikes, making haste, an already lackluster stat for DKs, even less desirable, as there is less to speed up. I see no problem in skipping Icy Talons with that in mind. Rune Cooldowns, rather than GCD, is usually the limiting factor in how fast you can use your skills.

Taking Merciless Combat is a bit debatable. At that point in a fight, you should have a solid threat lead, but on the other hand, that is usually also when the DPS will start pulling out all the stops. If you want, you could switch them over to Endless Winter for a free disease on runners (allowing you to quickly grab them back with HB without maybe having to taunt) and always having an interrupt on hand. Personal style on that choice mostly.

Icy reach is certainly something I like to see in a frost tanking build. Being able to pull from a safe distance can be gold.

You don't have a lot of goodies for the group in this build, but you should be able to tank in it just fine on all levels of content, gear allowing.

As for the final three points, Two-Handed Weapon is ok, though as you depend less on strikes doesn't have quite the trickle-down effect that someone using Obl alot would see. Morbidity is probably the best value, giving you access to D&D on pretty much all trash pulls (remember D&D does increased threat as well). You may not always have a use for it, but at least it'll be up when you do. I'm not really sold on Acclimation, and certain alot of theorycrafters find it too undependable and situational to be of real use, but if you really don't know what to do with your last three points, any sort of mitigation is better than nothing.

Tarrke
01-13-2009, 07:06 AM
I'd like to add a third point of view on that and remind something to the first poster here.

First of all this is my first post (and first time I think i've something interesting to add to a discution) and i'd like to thanks you all for the great debats that i've been able to read here.

That said, let go with the template. The thing I'd like to say is that I won't ever get out of Obli for single target threat. Obli is just, to me, our first damage (and threat) generator after RS on a single mob. It strikes harder, crit much, than HB. However HB still gets my harder crits but really on the average Obli stikes harder. Also remind that the miss on Obli is less than the miss on HB even with Virulence.

That said if you want a spec running around HB why not. Fisrt of all I'll definitly go for Epidemic, that seems to me to be a great thret generator as you can delay the stacking of your disease by some seconds and so add another HB to your cycle (and as you got 3 extra points in your spec, you can do this).
As a tank not getting the frost aura (even if other players can pop up their) is something I won't do. My aura is there as a back up, and sometimes as something not the best but that we can use. I've done a 10 men Saphiron with no droods and only one pal, so the combo my aura + his devo was something better than his frost aura to us. And if the pal dies, tour aura is still here. For 2 points, I'll definitly go for this, rather than merciless combat (as said above). same goes for Deathchill. I mean go with it at the opening okay, but then do you really need the extra crit after that ? And do you really need this crit then ?

Last but not least, I don't thnik taht haste is a waste, specially in our specs. I mean, right I won't ever gem for haste, nor I'll take a weapon with haste over a weapon with pseudo def stats (exp, hit or agi for example). But I don't think that totally ignoring haste is really a good thing. I've no maths for this, but my fellings are that the more we can hit, the more we can RS. For example I got a 3.5 sword, that mean in regular conditions I can do a RS once every 3.5 secondes. Let's say that the boss is hitting me every 2 secondes, and i go with a nice dodge/parry sequence, let's say 10 in a row, during that 20 secondes I'll just swing 6 RS out of the 10 I would have been able to do. Now i got that haste in my tree, so my sing is not 3.5 anymore but near 2.8. So in that 20 secondes I would have been able to throw 8 RS, and that is something I definetly want to do. This is assuming you have a BoSanctuary of course. I won't say that haste is something we should ever focus on, but if it's here why not, it's not the best tps stat but we can use it to something. And getting Imp. Icy Talon may let an other totem for you cham if you don't have many in your raid.

necrobeef
01-13-2009, 07:37 AM
I've been frost for a couple of months now and have MT'd all of naxx (10 man) with it. With everything i have read AFTER the patch hits KM seems like the way to go, personally (unless i try it and hate it) i'll be pulling Obliterate off of my toolbar and just using HB instead. To me since HB has the advantage of not taking armor into the equasion and since it will now be "spammable" it seems like it will be a better ability for gaining/holding aggro... Not that i have problems with that currently, with the occasional exception of Grobbulus where the pally OT will holy shield the oozes and occasionally hit the boss...

The other abilities not in your build really come down to raid make up and personal prefrence... Frost aura is kind of nice if you never raid with druids... (though i think i'll be dumping it after the patch since we take a forest with us) and improved icy touch is amazing if you raid with a lot of melee and have no shaman (and a raid with glowing hands = neato :P ) Personally i look at the talents and think which would benefit the raid as a whole (eg help me keep aggro, help the melee do more dps, and help keep people alive...even if only slightly)

Ray
01-13-2009, 08:06 AM
Going back to the OP.

Spec looks very very solid and with the 3 remaining points not place go into Epidemic and still have one point for either CE (which might be nice in the patch) or possible lower CD on DG.

KM will require testing after the patch to figure it out because it has been broken till about a day or so ago. Its a choice between KM and Talon.

(Dont under estimate the value of haste as a tank. RS is my top damage most fights or a close 2nd. If you carry a prot pally, haste can be a beautiful thing, especially if your unholy.

Feanorr
01-13-2009, 09:13 AM
That said, let go with the template. The thing I'd like to say is that I won't ever get out of Obli for single target threat. Obli is just, to me, our first damage (and threat) generator after RS on a single mob. It strikes harder, crit much, than HB. However HB still gets my harder crits but really on the average Obli stikes harder. Also remind that the miss on Obli is less than the miss on HB even with Virulence.


Please show me any math or ingame stats that prove what you say; because I did it and it show the exact opposite:
Average damage: HB win
Max hit: HB win
Miss+dodge+parry: HB win

I did some theory maths AND I verified it ingame; on all my raid I did as a frost tank (was unholy before), that's what I saw in our stats (WowWebstats).

And that's on live, so it will get only better with the new KM.


As for epidemic, it's useless with the rotation we will use with a HB spec; IT/HB/HB/BS/FS repeat; you dont need epidemic.


@Doom: virulence is a must have for this spec since 3/4 of our rotation is spell-based (IT and 2 HB)

Frost aura is 2 points wasted if you get any druid, pal or shammy in your raid imo.

KM is a must have for an HB oriented frost tank.

Icy reach is great to be able to cast IT and HB (basicly the most of our rotation) at distance; not only to pull but for every fight when the boss is moving.

@Maegul: I agree that merciless combat isnt great but the other place you could put this 2 point arent either. Endless winter? meh; Annihilation? the crit only affect melee strike so meh.

To the OP:

I will go with the exact same spec, and I am not sure where to put this 3 points either.
If 2H spec affect our spell (IT and HB) then it's good place to put 2 of them. And the 3rd in rune tap or Hungering cold (not very great but I dunno where to put the last one).
For Morbidity, DnD (+PS) still make more threat than 2 HB if we dont count crit; but the difference is not that huge and I think with the crit of KM, HB will be better.
I am comparing 2 HB for one DnD+PS because if we use DnD our rotation will be:
IT-DnD-PS-BS-FS // IT-HB-HB-BS-FS repeat
and without:
IT-HB-HB-BS-FS repeat

I will try to test 2H spec on the PTR to see if he increase IT and HB damage.

xKhellendrosx
01-13-2009, 10:02 AM
If I had to choose between KM and Icy Talons I'd rather have Icy Talons and Imp Icy Talons for the increased auto attack speed / rune strike speed. I primarily focus on using Howling blast over Obliterate even now. Rune strike generally will make up the bulk of your damage while tanking (this will drop some since they are cutting 50% of the damage out of it but it'll add more threat) thus also making it generally your highest threat production tool over a fight.

The only problem I find with the frost tree in general is there tends to be a couple bottlenecks in the tree that force you to take one talent or another, in this case points 17-20 need to either go into KM, or Icy Talons or split between a few other talents that generally are not to useful (Runic Power mastery/Nerves of Cold Steel/Icy Reach) and Annihilation (which you don't really need for this build) on your way to getting to the 21 point talents.


I would recommend putting those other 3 points into Morbidity however as that 15% cooldown is the main benefit to it especially on fights where adds come into the picture. Icy Reach is really only useful for PvP/Arena to be honest.

I'm going to see exactly how effective the new KM is before I seriously consider spec'ing to it. Though if KM does prove to be useful I might finally spec to something like this which allows me to pick up both Icy Talons and KM at the loss of Merciless Combat, Deathchill, and Frost aura from my current build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGxxt0ebohoVosxcg)

Maegul
01-13-2009, 10:28 AM
I've been glacing at some theorycraft on the whole Obl vs HB and while it's situational and the difference not completely spec-breaking either way, the general conclusion I draw from is:

Obliterate will outperform HB if:
You have a very good weapon (200+ dps)
You have most, if not all, talents that supports strikes and Obl directly. This means stuff like 2-handed specialization, annihilation, KM, Rime, Subversion and GoG plus the Obliterate glyph.

So just relying on HB when you get into things looks like the "smarter" choice from a pure damage perspective, but later you may want to take a second look at it.

I'm personally thinking of skipping Annihilation, but worry that, as my gear improves, my single-target threat will suffer for it.Time will tell on that one. I agree around tier 6 in Frost you get sort of forced to throw a few points in something just to get further down the tree, and Merciless Combat is as good (or mediocre) a choice as any.

Haste I still wouldn't take if we look strictly at personal benefit, but sometimes you take things just to give a raid boost, and for many other melee classes haste is great, so you could "take one for the team" and go for Impr. Icy Talons over KM too. I think they will both be valid choices.
Whether it is worth it for the extra RS I think comes down to how your RP generation is (there's a change coming to that as well and I'm not sure how it will affect that. Being able to RS more is pointless if you find yourself RP-starved).

Frost Aura: Well, I get the whole backup argument. I do tend to not make specs based on assumptions about who is going, and especially for 10-man that can be a bit dicey. So I wouldn't recommend against it either.

Edit: Without trying to hijack the thread, I've also been toying with this build: Frost with VotTW (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbE0V0hcZGgxz0edMhoVokZ0x). It'll hurt in the threat department, losing Virulence, Tundra Stalker and most of GoG but you gain extra stamina (easily 70-90), a spot of strength and some magic mitigation that I think will scale better than Acclimation. It may not perform well at higher gear levels, but in lesser geared groups where I think threat isn't that big of an issue, but survival can be, it may be worth it.

Feanorr
01-13-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm going to see exactly how effective the new KM is before I seriously consider spec'ing to it. Though if KM does prove to be useful I might finally spec to something like this which allows me to pick up both Icy Talons and KM at the loss of Merciless Combat, Deathchill, and Frost aura from my current build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGxxt0ebohoVosxcg)


Well I tested the new KM on PTR a bit, and it really proc a lot (with a 2H weapon at least); I personnaly wouldnt consider a spec without it, past patch, it will assure a lot of HB and FS crit.

Your spec with icy talon and KM is interesting though; especially since haste mean more white attack and then more KM proc.

Just a few thing about it:
- you dont have virulence; with a heavy spell rotation like we will use on a HB spec, 3% spell hit is great.
- you got epidemic; if you use a short rotation, I dont see any use of it.
- Icy reach: you said it's a pvp only talent, I dont agree; there is many fight where I am glad I have a 30y IT and HB. A few exemple: Guth if you are kiting the adds, noth for adds again, etc. Ok it's mainly when you are not MT, but personnally we try to rotate our tank so I wont be always MT for sure.
A comparison come in mind, how many time you though "damn this taunt is too short!", I got the same feeling about IT and HB without icy reach.


But to take your idea of taking both Icy talon and KM, which I like, I may modify my spec to this one: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGgxt0ebohoVosx0xh)

I only loose deathchill over my spec, not a big lost (and merciless combat but I only took it to fill the gap)

@maegul: I know that with a very good weapon, every talents for it and the glyph, OB is better.
I am not sure a 200 DPS weapon is enough though, exept if you use the OB sigil too.

But it's a big payoff for a small increase, and all this talents points put elsewhere will make up for the difference I think (it's at least 8 talents points).


PS: I though about what I said for 2H spec, and it stupid, I dont see how it could affect IT and HB; it increase the DPS of the weapon, HB and IT does not scale with it, so it's useless for this kind of built.

xKhellendrosx
01-13-2009, 11:52 AM
Well I tested the new KM on PTR a bit, and it really proc a lot (with a 2H weapon at least); I personnaly wouldnt consider a spec without it, past patch, it will assure a lot of HB and FS crit.


Just a few thing about it:
- you dont have virulence; with a heavy spell rotation like we will use on a HB spec, 3% spell hit is great.
- you got epidemic; if you use a short rotation, I dont see any use of it.
- Icy reach: you said it's a pvp only talent, I dont agree; there is many fight where I am glad I have a 30y IT and HB. A few exemple: Guth if you are kiting the adds, noth for adds again, etc. Ok it's mainly when you are not MT, but personnally we try to rotate our tank so I wont be always MT for sure.
A comparison come in mind, how many time you though "damn this taunt is too short!", I got the same feeling about IT and HB without icy reach.


But to take your idea of taking both Icy talon and KM, which I like, I may modify my spec to this one: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EZGgxt0ebohoVosx0xh)

I only loose deathchill over my spec, not a big lost (and merciless combat but I only took it to fill the gap)



If its a PPM system I think the most its supposed to be able to proc is 5 times at least that was their intentions when they changed it.

As to that build I made:

I like Virulence, and if the cooldown coming off pestilence is good enough for grabbing adds I might drop Morbidity and pick Virulence back up. While raiding I haven't really noticed many issue with misses though, I do raid with a shadow priest +3% hit, and I use hit food as well. Though part of me things I'll finally swap out several of my +Str +Def gems with some +Expertise + Hit ones.

I just like keeping epidemic in my builds as I like that extra 6 second window before I have to IT/PS/Pestilence again in an AoE situation. Though it does cut down on potential Rime procs.

I typically do not use the same opening rotation that you do in most cases, if I need to pull I tend to use death grip to do it and not IT. And then I follow Death Grip with DnD, PS, IT, Pestilence.

Icy Reach- As to the two fights you mentioned. On Noth I'm generally always the main tank, or we have the raid positioned so that I'm dropping DnD near the boss and in the path the adds are going to be running (most time they have healer threat) so that I can pick them up with and keep them near the boss so we can AoE them all down at once. On Gluth we tend to have a dps hunter or DK that kite the adds as both tanks are on Gluth and trading taunts.

Oakes
01-13-2009, 12:55 PM
Feanorr, the revised build with Icy Talons might be worth a shot if the haste is able to proc KM more often. If not then I don't really see any need for it. I guess we will see once 3.0.8 goes live and more tests are run, but supposedly it is a set PPM with a limit on how many you can have to nurf the 32/39 spec. If that turns out to be true I doubt I will spec Icy Talons.

I'm surprised nobody has considered my last 3 points going into Dark Conviction since it raises the crit of white, spells, and abilities. I think it might be a decent boost to my dps and threat by throwing the last 3 in there.

Anyway thanks to everyone who replied and had an idea of what I was talking about. I read my first reply from Doom and I was like uh? lol

I guess at this point I'm most excited to see how KM will work. Maybe these few changes with the revised Frost Presence will give us what we need.

xKhellendrosx
01-13-2009, 01:01 PM
Generally as a tank you have a pretty terrible crit chance which I why I overlook something like Dark Conviction.

Feanorr
01-13-2009, 04:15 PM
If its a PPM system I think the most its supposed to be able to proc is 5 times at least that was their intentions when they changed it.

There are many post about how PPM work (on EJ at least); it's based on base speed, meaning that if you have a 3.0 weapon (for easier math), a 5ppm proc will have 25% to proc each time you swing (white damage); 60/3=20, 5/20=0,25.
After that if you got some haste from any source, the chance to proc by swing will remain 25% but since you will swing more often, you will get more proc per min.
At least it's how ppm work since it have been introduced so exept if they make a special one for KM, it should still be the same.

xKhellendrosx
01-13-2009, 08:17 PM
There are many post about how PPM work (on EJ at least); it's based on base speed, meaning that if you have a 3.0 weapon (for easier math), a 5ppm proc will have 25% to proc each time you swing (white damage); 60/3=20, 5/20=0,25.
After that if you got some haste from any source, the chance to proc by swing will remain 25% but since you will swing more often, you will get more proc per min.
At least it's how ppm work since it have been introduced so exept if they make a special one for KM, it should still be the same.

This is how Ghostcrawler explained it in this thread:
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - New Killing Machine (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/14287189029-new-killing-machine.html)

It is on a proc per minute system, 1/2/3/4/5 at 5 ranks. It procs based on autoattack hits.

It will still benefit DW, but not nearly as much. The DW build was just outperforming 2H DKs (and the rest of the world).

Feanorr
01-13-2009, 08:59 PM
hum I dont know now; not because of the GC post (cause it doesnt say anything against what I said) but I digged a bit more on EJ to find the correct link and I found some posts saying it's based on base speed and some saying it's based on current hasted speed, so meh :o

But anyway, I think Icy talons and improved icy talons is a better place to put does remaining point than merciless combat and deathchill; it's 3 more points I know but we had 3 points left over so ^^

The best place I could see this point in a HB oriented rotation (so no DnD) is Dark conviction; so 3% crit, 1 crit every 2min and 12% damage at 35% health versus 25% haste (not counting the raid benefit if you dont have a shaman).
My white swing is still around 15% of my damage so we are looking at a 3,75% damage increase with the haste. Plus more Runestrike if we have the RP for it.

Well I guess it's a personnal choice at this points, it wont be game breaking either way (or it will need more precise maths that I wont do to see what is better ^^)

Feanorr
01-13-2009, 11:27 PM
I did a few more test on PTR with the short rotation (IT/HB/HB/BS/FS and repeat) and I wonder about another talent: Rime

2 things about it:

- First it doesnt proc a lot, even with an IT every 10 sec. That's about 1 proc per min (a bit less).

- Second, when it does proc, it make a problem to refresh Bladed barrier; since I use only one BS by rotation, I need the second HB that use a death rune, to make BB proc on the BS.

I will describe the rotation step by step to make it more clear:

- IT: 1 frost used
- 1st HB: 2nd frost +1 unholy
- 2nd HB: 2nd unholy + 1 death rune
- BS: 2nd blood >>>> Bladed barier proc
- FS

And repeat.

On the second rotation, I got 2-3 sec left on BB when it refresh. It's all good if I dont have any miss or parry/dodge; I can even maintain it with one or 2 of them, but not much more.

But if Rime proc, it mean I have one more HB to make to use this death rune, and if anything miss or are being dodged/parried, I am screwed.


So I dont know if the small proc of rime and the +15% crit for IT worth the risk to not have BB up at all time.

Tarrke
01-14-2009, 04:03 AM
Please show me any math or ingame stats that prove what you say; because I did it and it show the exact opposite:
Average damage: HB win
Max hit: HB win
Miss+dodge+parry: HB win

I can show you this Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/25vnw5ftadvbi?a=x1c51d58) which is the main reason why i wont go for HB unless there are two mobs. I can't be sure that all the night was spent in tanking gear, but I do find that HB is hitting smoother than Obli.

Once again, no math, and no HB support too, so maybe with some other things we can say that HB > Obli, but not so sure. You can armory me my stuff shouldn't have change by much theses last days.

If you got maths I'll be glad to have a look at it so I can find what is wrong in them or in what I do.

PS: not sure you can see the WWS report for that night, and even if you see it the names won't be the real one, so look for the tank DK (not the dps one), I'm the 13th on the dps chart.

Edit :
And I've re read your last post and understand what you mean. You said that even with 1 IT per 10 second it seems that rime proc at 1 ppm, that seems to be right with its 15% proc chance. So Once every minute you may be annoyed by a rime proc that push you using one more HB in your rotation.
Let say that you got a death rune at the begining of your tanking, you can easily get it. So your rotation is :
IT (FR)
HB (free)
HB (FR + UR)
BS (BR)
HB (DR + UR) and start of BB

This rime proc is not a very big deal as this just delay the start of BB by 1.5 sec. This can be of importance, but not as much as if you were doing something like IT PS BS BS so you have your BB up from the start (or an IT HB BS BS PS to begin with some good thret on the mob, the time he gets close to you).
What if a rime proc after the first IT ?
So after your last cycle, you got some 4 seconds to wait for your runes, and so when the first rune will reactivate you'll have BB at 4.5 second left. Then you just sitck to your rotation :
IT (FR)
HB (free)
HB (FR + UR)
BS (BR)
HB(DR + UR)
And then be 1.5 sec late on your timer. This is not taking in account the shortest cooldown of your runes, so you should be 0.5 second before your BB fades. Then you say that getting a miss in that should waste your entire cycle and not allowing you to get a full lenght BB. This may be, but if you miss something I think your solution should be in BS twice in a row then PS. This will do less threat but won't destroy your cycle and you'll be able to come back to your cycle on the next rune return.

And the same problem appears if you miss something even without rime proc. Let's say that you came with that output : IT - HB - BS - HB (miss). That last move leaves you with a BR and an UR and the only move you can do is BS then PS, then restart your cycle. So the rime proc dosn't seems to be the core problem, as this problem can occur without a rime proc.

Now the real question is, without any use of Obli, is rime interesting ? If rime was buffing your HB crit chance, i'll say take it, now what to do without rime as a spec ? As you said above the points can go in 2H spec iff this is buffing HB for you, or go with Merciless combat / Death Chill / Endless winter. I put Endless winter as having a free interrup could be nice for some fight.

As for the haste, if you got some Bo Sanctuary (never remind the damn abreviation for this one) every time you dodge or parry you gain the RP for RS so the effect of haste is really visible on that. That's plus if you don't raid often with a windfury totem maid me choose the haste option.

Satorri
01-14-2009, 08:45 AM
There is plenty of good feedback for spec here, plenty of personal preferences as well.

Always, Improved Icy Talons and Frost Aura are greatly reduced in value if you aren't offering something new to your group, or allowing your group to shift other resources (shamans drop other totems, pallies use other auras, etc).

As for haste and DK's, the talents that increase you swing speed are flat damage increases, though they do come through additional swings (which means more opportunities for both RS and for parries. Generally I see more benefit than harm). Haste on gear is a different matter. DK's get less value from haste on gear than about anyone else. Up front it does provide some more of that increased swing speed, it does not provide any other benefit as nothing can reduce our GCD except for our presences. Because of that I'll favor any and every other stat above haste (and armor pen for similar limited value), though I'm not going to avoid it all costs either.

Feanorr
01-14-2009, 11:17 AM
I can show you this Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/25vnw5ftadvbi?a=x1c51d58) which is the main reason why i wont go for HB unless there are two mobs. I can't be sure that all the night was spent in tanking gear, but I do find that HB is hitting smoother than Obli.

Well I dont know how to link my Wow WEb stats (I dont have a acount there, it's one of my guildmate), but I have the exact opposite of you.
Reasons? I can see a few:

- You have the OB sigil (and maybe the glyph too?); it increase his damage by a lot, definetly.
- you dont have KM, even now it increase the crit rate of HB a bit.
- you dont have Bladed armor, who increase our PA by a lot especially in frost presence, and HB scale better with PA than OB I think.


Here is some maths (I am basing my math for OB on this post Frost Rotation, RPM and You... (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=33318.15), just taking different number more accurate for tank):

Using a titansteel destroyer and 3000 PA (that's about what I have in tank gear in raid):

For OB:

For easier comparison, I take OB with only one disease; anyway it seem that a rotation with one disease is better even with OB (that's what I read on EJ anyway)

Base OB = (3000/14) x 3.3 + avg weapon damage + 292 +146
base OB = 1779

Multiplier: tundra stalker (+10%), 2H spec (4%)

OB = 1779 x 1.1 x 1.04 = 2035

A sundered boss have around 25% damage reduction (again I trust Haskel for that, if he is wrong, tell me):

OB hit = 2035 x 0.75 = 1526
OB crit = 1831 x 2.45 = 3738

If we add the glyph (+20%):

OB hit = 1831
OB crit = 4485

If we add the Sigil:

OB hit = 2251
OB crit = 5514


So for HB now:

The AP coef for HB is 0,1 according to EJ (DPS Compendium - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36303-dps_compendium/))


Base avg HB = 270 + (3000 x 0.1) = 570

Multiplier: IT on mob (x2), Glacier rot (+10%), Black ice (+30%), tundra stalker (+10%)

HB = 570 x 2 x 1.1 x 1.3 x 1.1 = 1793

To compare with a sundered boss, we should consider the boss also have a curse of elements (or similar), so +10%

HB hit = 1972
HB crit = 4831


So if my maths are good (and i am not sure of that) what it show is that without the OB glyph and sigil, HB clearly win; with only the glyph, it still win but not by much; with both, OB is clearly ahead.
But then we should take into consideration what glyph and sigil we can use instead.
Another thing that I didnt take into consideration (intentionally) is the crit; I know that OB crit more often on live (but at a cost of many talents) and it will be easy to make some math for OB crit.

But for HB it's another story. First I dont know if it's based on melee crit or on spell crit; I know it's a spell, but a spell that is based on AP. Plus what I see on my stats, and even yours, show me a crit largely superior than our spell crit chance (and more close to our melee crit chance).
Second, I dont know how to factor KM; even on live it increase the % crit a lot (I got 31% crit on HB during my last Naxx 25 raid), and the new one is even better

If you can double check my math, it would be great.


Feanorr

Tarrke
01-15-2009, 03:28 AM
Ok, thanks pointing out that i've the sigil and of course the glyphe. I said of course, but that's not so simple. I came to that glyphe once I've laid my hands on that sigil (which is one of the best, if not the best, sigils for threat generation).

I'm pretty concerned by my tps at all times as I came from a dps class and know how the ground is easy to get to by having had poor tank (really poor tank at that time) and so I don't want that to be said of me. That's why I tend to go to the best tps I can do, but staying alive is my first prioritie of course.

That said, I've researched a bit more on your maths and found one thing. That thing is that your math are correct of course, and that Obli is less ap friendly than HB. If i take my spec and stuff redoing the math for my OB et my HB I get to this :
OB hit : 2244
OB crit : 5500
HB hit : 1523
HB crit : 4105

and then of course the answer is obvious, and that's why my little brain told me : don't waste time and rune doing your HB if there is no more thant one mob. What's changing so we get totally opposed results ?
I'll say that getting a slower weapon is in favor of OB, same with a greater dmg plage (and theses two came together in general). Getting poor AP (comparaing my 2k2 ap with your 3k ap I'll say I get poor ap ^^) is in favor of OB as it scale with less than HB does. Obviously getting that glyphe and sigil are for something in my choises.

From that I'll conclude taht if you want to go to HB tanking in frost it should be possible at some cost. First of all get ride of the glyphe and find something to put in place. Can't be sur of what you'll choose but something likt FS glyphe doesn't seem bad at all. them spec to something like that Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0MZGxxt0ebohoVosx0xh) so you get all the buff on HB. Find some weapon with the hugest ap you can find, don't mind the speed except for RS but should be ok if it's a 2H weapon anyway.
As for the spec don't really know if 2% crit on all is worth the 4% dmg with your 2H weapon, I think so but not sure atm. This should give you some nice HB and on the other hands poor OB.

As for me I'll stick with my OB 2H threat generation I think. I'll give a shot to that KM new system but not sure the incomming threat will replace my big opening OB with Deathchill and the loose of the aura or acclimatation.

About your comment on that we get more crit than on the character sheet for HB, I've really never give it a thought. I can link you another WWS link if you want, with a 4 wing Naxx 10 men as the MT, so I really spend the whole time in my tanking gear. During this run I've cast 659 HB and get the following resuslts :
620 regular hits
31 crits
4 misses
4 other misses (think about some invul or something like that).
leaving alone the misses that mean a near 5% crit. My character sheet say 2% crit with spells. No support for HB crit, the 3% more should come from I don't know. Can't blame the pallies on this as most of my moves where done on thrashes. I know my pallies love dpsing the trashes but not to the point of judging them so I cant crit more :)

Feanorr
01-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Can you tell me what is your other glyphs? I dunno if we can see them on armory but didnt find.

My plan was to use IT glyph, RS glyph and UA glyph.
RS is by far my first dps move when I am MT, and next patch even if it will do less dps, it will make even more agro (150x150% = 225%). SO it's the first choice for agro I think.
UA is for def, I am not really fan of it, but that's the only defensive one we got.
I could see the IT one replaced by OB, but more RP mean more RS; exept if you have a Palatank then you dont need more RP ^^


PS: you get less PA than me mostly because you dont have Bladed armor; and you should get it really. I seen some maths comparing it to 2H spec, subversion, dark conviction and it always win by a lot in term of dps/tps. And with next patch we will have more armor, so it will be even better ^^

xKhellendrosx
01-15-2009, 10:07 AM
UA glyph probably won't be worth it come 3.0.8. I'd recommend the IBF glyph in all honesty as it transforms it into a true "Oh Sh't" button instead of requiring you have 20 runic power to use it. I'll probably still use the DnD glyph that I have now come 3.0.8, figure 20% more damage on it is still extra threat either way.

Inaara
01-15-2009, 10:11 AM
This will be my frost tanking spec. Glyphs are included.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000003252505130 032112321000101350035200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111315050406

Feanorr
01-15-2009, 11:34 AM
UA glyph probably won't be worth it come 3.0.8. I'd recommend the IBF glyph in all honesty as it transforms it into a true "Oh Sh't" button instead of requiring you have 20 runic power to use it. I'll probably still use the DnD glyph that I have now come 3.0.8, figure 20% more damage on it is still extra threat either way.

My real Oh shit button is lichborn not IBF; anyway I always try to stay between 40 and 100 RP, to be sure that I have enough RP for RS, so I dont see the necessity of the IBF glyph. If it was a minor sure, but a major no.

I may take the FS glyph instead of UA though.

xKhellendrosx
01-15-2009, 11:38 AM
I use Lichborne more as an afterthought than anything else, I don't worry about staying between any magic number RP wise as I tend to have blessing of sanctuary on due to the Paladin OT in the raid. I don't like the idea of having to "bank" rune power incase I need to use something.

Inaara
01-15-2009, 11:56 AM
Oh shit buttons are called oh shit buttons for a reason, you use them when you're in trouble. Having to rely on RP to use an ability is not smart. Additionally, saving RP means you may not be maximizing on threat/DPS. With the available Glyphs for frost tanking, there is no reason not to take it.

Frakalak
01-15-2009, 03:00 PM
In my opinion Howling Blast is far superior to Obliterate. By spamming HB you get all the bonuses of casting a spell rather than physical attack. OB may be better if you have the expertise take the essential talents and glyphs, neither of which I can afford as a pre-naxx DK tank.

On topic however, the spec I'm planning on using for 3.0.8 is Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGxxthcdRhR0ssx0g)

Another topic I wanted to throw into the mix is a new AoE rotation

DND-IT-PEST-Rune Tap (or blood tap, I cant remember which one gives you the blood rune into a death rune)-HB
with a deathchill thrown in there you have some awesome threat, without even using PS

Feanorr
01-15-2009, 05:19 PM
Additionally, saving RP means you may not be maximizing on threat/DPS.

Reread what I said, I "bank" some RP not for IBF but for Runestrike, to maximise my Threat/dps.
I try to avoid to be at max RP of course, but I also try to avoid to be at 0 and dont have enough for the next RS.

RS do more DPS/threat than FS or DC, so saving some RP to make sure RS will proc as often as possible is maximizing our Threat/DPS imo.

And it will be even more true next patch with the 150% threat bonus.

And the side effect is that I dont have to worry to much about not having enough RP for IBF.


If you have a Palatank with you, then yes I agree it's not agood idea, because all RS will be "free". But infortunatly, I dont have one most of the time.

Feanorr
01-15-2009, 09:39 PM
Ok blizzard ruined all the HB thing by putting it back with a CD :s

demifiend
01-15-2009, 11:00 PM
they better not... it seemed like such a good change, for tanks at least.

be sure to post your qq and reasoning here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Feedback] Howling Blast Cooldown (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14318907420&sid=1)

Maegul
01-16-2009, 03:37 AM
The latest patchnotes from PTR says the CD is back, although on a 5 second rather than 6 second, to make it mesh better with rune cooldowns.

They explain they knew it was a gamble, and unfortunately DW became too dominant with this change, even despite the changes to KM. So it looks like it will just get a reduction in CD come the patch.

Oakes
01-16-2009, 04:38 AM
Oh well there goes the spec then. Thanks for all the theory crafting anyway guys!

Tarrke
01-16-2009, 09:05 AM
Can you tell me what is your other glyphs? I dunno if we can see them on armory but didnt find.

My plan was to use IT glyph, RS glyph and UA glyph.
RS is by far my first dps move when I am MT, and next patch even if it will do less dps, it will make even more agro (150x150% = 225%). SO it's the first choice for agro I think.
UA is for def, I am not really fan of it, but that's the only defensive one we got.
I could see the IT one replaced by OB, but more RP mean more RS; exept if you have a Palatank then you dont need more RP ^^


PS: you get less PA than me mostly because you dont have Bladed armor; and you should get it really. I seen some maths comparing it to 2H spec, subversion, dark conviction and it always win by a lot in term of dps/tps. And with next patch we will have more armor, so it will be even better ^^

Just before getting a train so 'ill be quick sorry for that.

I use the RS glyphe for the same reason as yours, the OB glyphe and the IBF glyphe so that i can no care about runic and through it whenever I need to.

For the HB, so bad, that was a good thing imo. And for Bladed armor, I know it's better than 2H spec, but not if you just have 2 points to put in and I'm not sure i'll be able to get some other points, unless I drop Frost Aura which I don't want beafore getting to Ulduar, there i'll see.

Thx for advice and I'll may reply more on that topic anyway later.

Edit :
Ok I'll see that this may go to trash as they put HB back on CD, but there is still things to discuss. As Feanorr pointed out bladed armor is a good talent that can up your whole tps a lot, but I'll see the nex KM ppm system as something that can be a remplacement for it. Let's say that I got 4 points to spend on any tree, and adon't have nor KM neither bladed armor. Which one should I get ? Saying that I'll stick to my Obli system, but will use the KM procs for HB as much as I can (they will go on FS if i'm runic starved at the end of a cycle waiting for runes to get back, so let's say 15% of the time, they will go on IT if I need to refresh it's timer, so let's say 15% of the time also).

As for the runic banking in order to be sure of RS being doable (is that word really exist ?) at all time, I raid with a prot pally and so I got a so cool Blessing of Sanctuary - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20911) so every runic is spend on FS as my RS runic cost will be paid by the blessing.

Oakes
01-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Looks like the HB cooldown has been removed completely after all! Guess I will be trying this spec out once the servers come up.

Keep the comments coming!

xKhellendrosx
01-20-2009, 08:28 AM
Looks like the HB cooldown has been removed completely after all! Guess I will be trying this spec out once the servers come up.

Keep the comments coming!

Or blizzard just did a bad job copy/pasting the patch notes. Take patch notes with a grain of salt as sometimes things listed there do not actually make it onto live, as sometimes bliz employees forget to edit/remove lines from the patch notes they had before.

I would suggest taking a look at MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies (http://www.mmo-champion.com/) as they mention most of the things in PTR Build 9464 (The one where they put HB back on a cooldown) are not mentioned in the Patch notes.

Oakes
01-20-2009, 08:30 AM
Yes I'm sad to say that's what it looks like on the DK forums. I saw the patch notes and got excited but supposedly Blizz failed at putting int he correct patch notes. Lol

xKhellendrosx
01-20-2009, 08:34 AM
They did knock a second off the cooldown which might make the rotations a little bit smoother. Tanking as Frost is still easy enough as it is, seeing as the only abilities that were changed on us were in the end a buff to Howling Blast and what amounts to a buff to killing machine its still win/win.

copstack
01-20-2009, 10:04 PM
[quote=Feanorr;155912]I did a few more test on PTR with the short rotation (IT/HB/HB/BS/FS and repeat) and I wonder about another talent: Rime

I will describe the rotation step by step to make it more clear:

- IT: 1 frost used
- 1st HB: 2nd frost +1 unholy
- 2nd HB: 2nd unholy + 1 death rune
- BS: 2nd blood >>>> Bladed barier proc
- FS



I don't know if it's a glitch or if I am retarded (maybe both) but I am having an issue with this rotation. Basically after the first HB, I hit BT. I can see that an unholy & a death rune are available but I keep getting 'Spell not available' when I try to HB again. It's as if the death rune isn't being recognized or available as a frost rune. It is taking about 2-3 seconds for it to finally fire. Any thoughts on this issuse?

Frothymilk
01-20-2009, 10:19 PM
Ok guys... HB has a 5sec cooldown. It doesnt display. Another bug, just like Oblit not generating RP or Corpse Dust still being required even with the Glyph.


[quote=Feanorr;155912]I did a few more test on PTR with the short rotation (IT/HB/HB/BS/FS and repeat) and I wonder about another talent: Rime

I will describe the rotation step by step to make it more clear:

- IT: 1 frost used
- 1st HB: 2nd frost +1 unholy
- 2nd HB: 2nd unholy + 1 death rune
- BS: 2nd blood >>>> Bladed barier proc
- FS



I don't know if it's a glitch or if I am retarded (maybe both) but I am having an issue with this rotation. Basically after the first HB, I hit BT. I can see that an unholy & a death rune are available but I keep getting 'Spell not available' when I try to HB again. It's as if the death rune isn't being recognized or available as a frost rune. It is taking about 2-3 seconds for it to finally fire. Any thoughts on this issuse?

Tarrke
01-21-2009, 01:53 AM
Hope this will be fixed soon.

OB w/o any RP generate, I'm going to hang myself tonight...

Satorri
01-21-2009, 06:23 AM
Ouchie, that IS a painful glitch. I'm glad I'm a ScS junkie at the moment >.>

Tarrke
01-21-2009, 07:56 AM
I'll see this tomnight but if I can't assume at least RS w/o blessing I'll go for SS and Unholy build I think.

I've seen that the same may occur using Reinforce runic Weapon (is that the real name of this skill ???) which doesn't grant you any RP too. This is a minor concern but still can be annoying...

Feanorr
01-21-2009, 08:56 PM
I did a few more test on PTR with the short rotation (IT/HB/HB/BS/FS and repeat) and I wonder about another talent: Rime

I will describe the rotation step by step to make it more clear:

- IT: 1 frost used
- 1st HB: 2nd frost +1 unholy
- 2nd HB: 2nd unholy + 1 death rune
- BS: 2nd blood >>>> Bladed barier proc
- FS





I don't know if it's a glitch or if I am retarded (maybe both) but I am having an issue with this rotation. Basically after the first HB, I hit BT. I can see that an unholy & a death rune are available but I keep getting 'Spell not available' when I try to HB again. It's as if the death rune isn't being recognized or available as a frost rune. It is taking about 2-3 seconds for it to finally fire. Any thoughts on this issuse?



This rotation (and spec) was made when HB was without CD (on the PTR); it didnt make it live so it dont work anymore; yes the tooltip still say there is no CD but that's a typo, like Frothymilk said.

However you can use the same rotation with OB instead of HB.

The spec will be a bit different though and it is not as appealing as the HB one for me but it still strong. The major lost is that with the HB spec, most of the rotation was spells, so we could almost ignore expertise and just cap hit (spell cap but with irulence and a Boomkin druid/shadow priest it doesnt require much more +hit than the melee cap); another lost is that OB require much more talents to be as good as HB (it become better if we add the OB glyph and sigil however).

My spec will look like this (as soon as they fix this damn bug...): Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEMZGgxzhed0hoVosx0x)

And I will still us the same short rotation than with HB.


Feanorr


PS: anyone know a good TPS meter please, who work for DK? I never used one yet but it could help me.

Tarrke
01-22-2009, 05:50 AM
For a tps meter I think recount do it, and live you could find that omen is not bad at all.

As for that OB bug, assuming that is the bug you are speaking about, I found it as soon as I logged. But will running Naxx in my current frost spec I found that it wasn't so annoying. Reason ? During the run the bug disapeared. This morning wasn't here at all.

Can't say that all of my OB was generating RP, but I haven't noticed one that doesn't.

Merko
01-22-2009, 05:55 AM
-Feanorr

Just my 2 cents... with your build you might want to consider going 1/3 subversion and putting 2/2 in epidemic, you will see larger threat gains point for point by doing this.

Other than that, very nice raid build, i will be using something very similar.

Fej
01-22-2009, 11:53 AM
Long time first time. Love the site though, kudos to all involved in the moderation and content. This site has been a great resource as I move from behind the boss to out front of the boss.

I mostly serve as OT in our 25s, but I have MT all of Naxx10. I am a committed Frost tank. With the patch I took the 5 pts I had in Bladed Armor and moved them over to Killing Machine. HB Crits are more damage than Oblits. Oblit crits more than HB. So basically in single target situations I prioritize KM HBs over Oblit, and Oblit if I don't have a KM proc, which is rare btw. Most of the time I will use Oblit with Death Runes while HB is on cooldown. (not have a cooldown count sucks for roatations) Killing Machine procs alot with 5 pts, and most of the time I used the procs on IT and FS and still got it up for HB on the rotation.

Overall I saw a DPS gain in all fights here, but we didn't get a WWS cause of mod issues so I can't qualify it. I'm just going by what I saw in Recount. So far I think KM is good quality TPS, greater than Bladed Armor in any case.

Inaara
01-22-2009, 12:30 PM
This is the spec I used last night.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0350020000000000000000000003252505130 032112301005101350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111310060504

My spec focuses on Obliterate instead of HB, the only time I use HB is when it's free. My obliterate crits are hitting for 6k on average and my DPS is sky high. With OB sitting at around 40% crit raid buffed (Without LotP) it crits quite often and I'd say that on average I have a 50-53% crit rate on bosses.

I still see no reason in taking KM over any of the other talents as most of my auto attacks are Rune Strikes. When I stop being lazy I'll run some WWS reports and if I ever get some Broken Promises, I'll do a comparison to DW tanking.

Feanorr
01-22-2009, 04:31 PM
@Tarrke: does recount or omen take care of the agro mod. of DnD and runestrike, and even from our frost presence?




-Feanorr

Just my 2 cents... with your build you might want to consider going 1/3 subversion and putting 2/2 in epidemic, you will see larger threat gains point for point by doing this.

Other than that, very nice raid build, i will be using something very similar.


As I said I use a short rotation (IT/OB/OB/BS/FS // repeat); from my maths it produce more threat than a standard rotation (IT/PS/BS/BS/OB/FS // OB/OB/OB/FS) or even one with DnD; so I dont need epidemic, even with lag and one or 2 miss, the 12sec is enough.

On the other side, I gain 6% crit on 3/5 of my rotation (OB and BS).

Fea

Feanorr
01-22-2009, 04:41 PM
I still see no reason in taking KM over any of the other talents as most of my auto attacks are Rune Strikes. When I stop being lazy I'll run some WWS reports and if I ever get some Broken Promises, I'll do a comparison to DW tanking.


KM does proc from runestrike; it have been tested before the patch already, and the patch note say (from mmochampions):
"Killing Machine: Instead of a chance to be triggered on critical strike, this talent now has a chance to be triggered on each swing based on the swing time of the weapon (slow weapons more likely, fast weapons less likely)."

So I think it confirm that it can proc from RS.

And I can tell you, from my last raid, that while MTing, it does proc a lot.

So you should take it over Icy talons imo.

Another great talent that you miss in your tree: Bladed armor; it's better for agro than both 2H spe and Subversion (point by point).


Even if I discovered today that it seem to take only your base armor into acount (or at least the PA doesnt change when you go in frost presence).


Fea

Sarthuk
01-23-2009, 12:06 AM
I'm currently tanking all 10 man content with a DW KM/HB build (yeah, despite HB cd). No FS nor OB. I'm hitting 5-6k tps with KM procs (and it does proc often). I have yet to experience trouble with single or multimob tanking, and my dps has had much better drop luck than I ;(

just for your information and consideration.

regards,
Sar

Satorri
01-23-2009, 07:47 AM
I do love the new changes for Frost threat. I'm a little sad the CD went back on HB, though 5 is better than 6 for smoothing rune sets.

I'm planning to do some Frost tanking time to gauge just how the talents work now, but KM just seems a sexy prospect if used well.

Tarrke
01-23-2009, 08:01 AM
@Tarrke: does recount or omen take care of the agro mod. of DnD and runestrike, and even from our frost presence?

For Omen (which is a thret meter) of course it takes all of that, the counter part is you will always see your current tps, and can't go back to see, let's say your averge tps on Patch.

For recount I must check logged before saying anything stupid. But I remember seeing a tps part in that. Have to check if it's up to date or not with the thret modificators.

Feanorr
01-23-2009, 09:25 AM
Yea for omen my question was stupid but it wont give me my average tps

Inaara
01-23-2009, 09:30 AM
My WWS on patch for last night.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/j3jrnntjgkkty?s=252661-279214)

The raid hit a huge lag spike at the end and I died >_<. After being able to compare AA's to RS's I can see taking KM although it still feels like a huge investment of talent points. I will most likely make some changes to the build but I still don't feel comfortable taking KM. Moving 3 points out of Subversion and 2 out of Icy Reach into BA.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055020000000000000000000003250505130 032112301005101350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000

P.S. BA is affected by your armor presence, it just takes a little for it to change on the character sheet.

Feanorr
01-23-2009, 07:26 PM
After being able to compare AA's to RS's I can see taking KM although it still feels like a huge investment of talent points. I will most likely make some changes to the build but I still don't feel comfortable taking KM. Moving 3 points out of Subversion and 2 out of Icy Reach into BA.

Erhmm... what's AA?

Anyway, honestly the new KM is simply great; it proc a lot and even with the cd back on HB there is still FS to use it (or the free HB from rime's proc).

For your personnal threat I am almost sure KM is a lot better than Icy talons; if you need icy talons for your raid, you can take 2 points from merciless combat, one from Deathchill and the last 2 from 2H spec.

During my last Naxx 25, frost strike had a 45% of crit, and my melee crit is 8,33%. With the 45% crit damage modifier it's a huge boost in damage and threat imo.



Try KM and you will adopt it I am sure :p

Grizle
01-23-2009, 11:53 PM
Erhmm... what's AA?

Anyway, honestly the new KM is simply great; it proc a lot and even with the cd back on HB there is still FS to use it (or the free HB from rime's proc).

For your personnal threat I am almost sure KM is a lot better than Icy talons; if you need icy talons for your raid, you can take 2 points from merciless combat, one from Deathchill and the last 2 from 2H spec.

During my last Naxx 25, frost strike had a 45% of crit, and my melee crit is 8,33%. With the 45% crit damage modifier it's a huge boost in damage and threat imo.



Try KM and you will adopt it I am sure :p


Question for those of you not taking VoTW: are you not taking it because it's not worth the points? 6% stam seems like alot and it would seem pretty critical for any tank.

I was unholy until 3.0.8 and given the nerfs I decided to try blood (The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Grizle)) which has been working well in heroics and not bad in 10 man Naxx. However, I'm finding that my "oh sh*t" buttons don't really exist and my ability to survive fights when a healer is having an off night or the timing of the boss isn't just right is low. Any suggestions because this is telling my guild that DKs can't tank as well as Wars (hearing this alot).

Lastly, my aoe tps isn't what it used to be (obviously).

My question is for MT 10 man naxx and beyond, would a frost build be better for me or are there tweaks to my build that would make me stronger?

Thanks

Tarrke
01-24-2009, 12:27 PM
Honnestly I can't really say if your build get tweaks in it or if frost build should be better.

What I can tell you however is :
- I think Mark of Blood is a great tool. You can let's say, avoid a lot of damage on Sapph for exemple, abd some time may allow your heals to get that 0.1 sec that is saving your soul.
- I really see the blood tree as a tps tree, not a survival one. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never tested it in raid, and I don't think I will. Some cool add you may bring to your raid and yet you don't have them (blood aura 2/2 get the black ice point).
- Sudent doom may be a good tps talent too.
- In frost build I've tanked everything, and specially Naxx 10 men with 2 heals and most of Naxx 20 men (we havn't kill some bosses yet but we're close to it).

I don't really like saying that a kind of build is better than an other. I'm feeling like ice, so I play frost tank. Some are feeling like unholy, so they play unholy. If you feel like blood, just go blood. If you don't feel more blood than anything else, just try and find your way to go.
My other point is, the build don't do everything. I've got an other DK who is unholy dps speced. That doesn't prevent him from tanking (in tanking gear of course) some adds or some trashes (we usually run we few tanks in 10 men) and his survavibility is not that bad.

for what I see from your armory, maybe just gem as dodge + stam instead of stam only. Dodge is a cool stat imo.

Tardacus
01-25-2009, 05:58 AM
I dont see how the

IT HB HB type rotations will work with HB having a 5sec CD.

I switched over from unholy just to make this kind of build after reading all this thread. Meh :rolleyes:

Keza
01-25-2009, 08:33 AM
This is the spec I used last night.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0350020000000000000000000003252505130 032112301005101350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111310060504

My spec focuses on Obliterate instead of HB, the only time I use HB is when it's free. My obliterate crits are hitting for 6k on average and my DPS is sky high. With OB sitting at around 40% crit raid buffed (Without LotP) it crits quite often and I'd say that on average I have a 50-53% crit rate on bosses.

I still see no reason in taking KM over any of the other talents as most of my auto attacks are Rune Strikes. When I stop being lazy I'll run some WWS reports and if I ever get some Broken Promises, I'll do a comparison to DW tanking.

This is probably more in line with my play style as a frost tank. It's funny, among our tanks (War, puh-bleep and myself) the way we compete for max health and we play around with threat. Not for serious tanking, but on those big adds we see who can 'threat' the most and gain the mobs attn.
I changed out my frost strike glyph to obliterate, will have to go farm some 'g' to respec and try this out. The puh-bleep always wins threat competition.

LK

nips
01-25-2009, 08:56 AM
I have tried a 2h frost build in heroic's the last days. i'm using KM and HB instead of obl. Atm my frost strike/icy tuch/HB have about 35-40% crit chance and my base crit is 8% so KM is quite awsome. I'm not that familiar with frost tanking and my spec/rotation is prolly a bit of, but aoe/single target threat is very good and my dps is about 1800-2k in a random heroic.

As a sidenot i must say frost tanking is actually a little more fun then just dropping DnD and going afk. Also getting 42k armor with unbreakable armor is fun, armor cap inc:D

*edit
Inaara are you sure RS dont proc KM? I have not checked it myself tbh, but i have 65% avoidance and KM procs alot for me.

*edit2
The tooltip says any mele attacks can proc KM so that would include alot more then just white swings?

Satorri
01-26-2009, 06:51 AM
I believe KM procs on any melee swing/special, especially since it's been put to main hand only.

Truthfully, the KM current state is heartbreaking for me, in one major respect: It no longer benefits dual wielding. It was the one shining talent that could be really beautiful for a dual wielder, but now it's no better for that than a 2-hander.

The silver lining is that it is now a great buff for tanks since it is not gear dependent, and it is, even in tanking gear it seems to be worth about a 20-30% increase in the functional crit rate of HB, FS, and IT, depending on how you use it/them.

xKhellendrosx
01-26-2009, 08:54 AM
I've been playing around with KM the last several night as I've been tanking and I've been loving it. I love giving the DPS in raids a fit when they see the overall damage numbers and its: Warlock, Hat Rogue, Frost Tank, Them.

Feanorr
01-28-2009, 08:41 PM
It's a bit out of the subject but still about frost tank:

First frost is my favorite playstyle; however, I have the feeling that it doesnt have much advantage over the others at the moment.

For avoidance, frost got 3% miss over the others trees; but with the current content, I got more and more the feeling than the overall damage doesnt really matter cause healer have rarely any mana trouble. What matter most imo, is 1) that damage are as much constant as possible and 2), even more important imo, the ability to take some heavy hit, once in a while.
For constant damage I think that unholy is better, with there 6 bones BS.
And for Heavy hit, I guess blood is the best, with WoTN, more stam and Vampiric blood.

For threat, unholy is better for AOE, frost isnt too far for AOE but AOE is not really a main concern imo.
And for single target, I think, blood is far ahead.


So, what you think, is there any reason left to play frost, exept for the playstyle?


Fea

Satorri
01-29-2009, 02:57 PM
Honestly, it's all play style and personal skill/experience.

I've played all three out, and I generally do best with unholy just because that's what I have the most experience with (that and it takes me about 4-5 hours of run time to adjust play style most of the way).

Frost is every bit as hearty and threatening as Blood or Unholy, it's just a matter of how you do it.

xKhellendrosx
01-30-2009, 09:26 AM
So, what you think, is there any reason left to play frost, exept for the playstyle?


Fea

The Joy of hearing every other raid member besides other frost DKs saying Howling blast needs to be nerfed again?

Keza
01-30-2009, 10:20 AM
The Joy of hearing every other raid member besides other frost DKs saying Howling blast needs to be nerfed again?


SShhhhhh! I hope not.

LK

xKhellendrosx
01-30-2009, 10:23 AM
SShhhhhh! I hope not.

LK

I hear this all the time while in Naxx, just because with KM I'm usually able to keep a 60% crit rate on the spell.

Feanorr
01-30-2009, 08:12 PM
The Joy of hearing every other raid member besides other frost DKs saying Howling blast needs to be nerfed again?

Ok but you are talking about trash (or AOE) there right?

Frenzy165
01-31-2009, 04:13 AM
The spec I tank with, that i dearly love is: This One (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0vZGxxthcbohRVostcg)

I'll explain a bit of my reasoning. First, the blood talents. Bladed armor used to have 5, until the patch lowered the hungering cold RP cost, so i moved a point out of there.

Frost stuff- I went all the way up to icy talons, primarily for group utility. I often run with an enh shaman, and almost always raid with one.. but they usually dont bother wasting their mana on WF, cause Imp Icy is always up.

I didnt have killing machine pre patch, and didnt pick it up post patch, either. Its somethign thatis open for possible testing, but i'd probably have to dump the icy talons line for it. I just dont feel that it would be THAT big a deal as it is. If i'm wrong, by all means.. correct me :)

About frost aura: This is, IMO, one of the most underrated and underestimated talents ever. It's just awesome. I find that it provides a lot of mitigation through its resist in Heroics, and even on Raid trash. Let's face it.. if we need a big resist for a boss fight.. the shaman or paladins will be doing the totems/auras. For everything else.. I love it.

Hungering cold: An old point of contention due to its high RP cost. I liked the ability when i tried it in beta.. but its prohibitive cost kind of pushed it out in live. Now that the cost is lower.. its not bad. I dont use it terribly often, but its there, and i like having toys to play with. I will say, though.. it has been a HUGE boon on sarth when we're trying to deal with tenebrons whelps (we dont go in the portal.. we just kill the whelps). I stand right by the portal, drop DND, hit Hungering cold (which gets broken.. but puts FF on all the whelps) and slam them all with a HB. MY MOBS! MINE!

I think the unhly stuff is self explanatory.. i used to not run morbidity, but then i ran into a few problems.. so i shifted points out of blood and into it. Ill never run without it, as a tank, again.

My Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Dalaran&n=Ramasekva) - however, as of this posting (1/31/09-610am EST) I'm currently in DPS gear and spec. But that changes a minimum of 4 times a week or so. But the important part is my weapon: Currently Death's Bite (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39417) with Stoneskin Garg on it.

My rotation: ps-it-bs(pest on multi)-bs-hb-ob -dump into FS(if rune strike hasnt made that impossible) -> ob-ob-ob and sometimes, depending on timing, i can get a 4th oblit in there. As you can see.. i use oblit a LOT.. and i use the glyph, so it hits hard.. and i never really have any threat issues.

That said.. comments, advice, suggestions, mindless flames? :)

Feanorr
01-31-2009, 06:00 AM
I didnt have killing machine pre patch, and didnt pick it up post patch, either. Its somethign thatis open for possible testing, but i'd probably have to dump the icy talons line for it. I just dont feel that it would be THAT big a deal as it is. If i'm wrong, by all means.. correct me :)

You are ;) Seriously, KM is a big threat talents now, either for HB or FS, it increase their crit rate from your base crit (10% for me) to 50-60%.
Especially if you are running with a enh shaman I see no reason to not take it over icy talons.



About frost aura: This is, IMO, one of the most underrated and underestimated talents ever. It's just awesome. I find that it provides a lot of mitigation through its resist in Heroics, and even on Raid trash. Let's face it.. if we need a big resist for a boss fight.. the shaman or paladins will be doing the totems/auras. For everything else.. I love it.


Exept that if you have any druid heal it's 5 points more than their Gift of the wild (26 more if you got a druid without the improved GotW). And as you said, when resist does matter, you got the shaman and pal. The two make it very situationnal, and a waste of 2 points imo.



I think the unhly stuff is self explanatory.. i used to not run morbidity, but then i ran into a few problems.. so i shifted points out of blood and into it. Ill never run without it, as a tank, again.

Well I personnaly dont have trouble for AOE without it, and anyway aoe isnt a major concern imo (or rarely). And in a single target rotation, I did the math to compare one with DnD and the one I use and DnD wasnt better for threat.


One last thing, you got Epidemic; I used to have it then I tried a short rotation and I dont see any reason to take it anymore (as frost). My (single) rotation is: IT/OB/OB/BS and repeat (and FS as Rp dump of course). The advantage is that it's easy to correct a mistake or a dodge/parry/miss, to change the order if needed, to keep Blade Barrier up, etc. Damage wise I think 2 IT make more damage than one IT and one PS, with the frost talents and it should even compensate for the lost of one disease on OB (and BS) (I will try to make the math for it later).

Satorri
01-31-2009, 06:47 AM
I usually do the same thing Feanorr, I move Epidemic points elsewhere with Frost simply because I reapply often (and I'm a big fan of disease juggling, now that we can again!), though I know Merko loves it.

Feanorr
01-31-2009, 10:01 PM
What is "disease juggling"? :confused:

Oroborous
02-01-2009, 11:43 PM
Disease juggling is a term for DK tanks that came in 3.08, it allowed us to disease a target and pestilence, after the first pestilence it allowed us to spread the diseases or refresh the other targets diseases, so the idea was instead of wasting a frost and unholy and a pestilence you could just use the pestilence and target something else and use pestilence again to refresh the entire groups diseases.

Fej
02-02-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm tweaking my spec a little based on yall's comments in this thread, and wanted to see what you thought.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxthe0ohoVosx0x)

What I like about this build is that you get good tanking goodies, a crazy crit rate on Frost spells, all the basic avoidance stuff, and good crit rate on Oblit.

I would use the IT-OB-OB-BS rotation with this spec.

There is one point left to allocate, and I'm at a loss where to drop it. Deathchill is mostly useless with KM's proc rate. Hungering Cold is meh, Rune Tap seems ok. I could also go with 1% crit.

taek
02-02-2009, 04:38 PM
That's very close to what i'm running.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGxxthebohoVosx0x)

But i'm using 2H Spec vs Subversion, based off EJ comments that 2H Spec > Subversion even for OB spamming.



I would use the IT-OB-OB-BS rotation with this spec.

What's using KM if you're not using HB? Your RP should be eaten by RS, not leaving much for FS. Are you always running w/ Blessing of Sanctuary?

Feanorr
02-03-2009, 12:10 AM
Disease juggling is a term for DK tanks that came in 3.08, it allowed us to disease a target and pestilence, after the first pestilence it allowed us to spread the diseases or refresh the other targets diseases, so the idea was instead of wasting a frost and unholy and a pestilence you could just use the pestilence and target something else and use pestilence again to refresh the entire groups diseases.

Ok tks I didnt know the term; I did use it sometimes though.

Fej
02-03-2009, 06:23 AM
I'm not MT most of the time so I don't burn all my RP on RS, so I can blow KM procs on FS. I do have the IT glyph for some extra RP gen.

Thanks for the tweaks on the spec Taek, I had missed the comment about 2h Spec > Sub. Adding the RP from CotG can't hurt either.

Merko
02-03-2009, 06:38 AM
Satorri is right... I have a hard on for epidemic... however I like to see people using disease juggling to free up those 2 points to grab KM and Imp Icy Talons in the same build. I'll be the first to admit I base my builds on having diverse 25 man raid buffs but very nice.

Also, has anyone ran the numbers on IT, OBL, OBL, BS threat versus IT,PS,BS,BS, OBL spam rotations?

xKhellendrosx
02-03-2009, 08:30 AM
Ok but you are talking about trash (or AOE) there right?

Generally you hear that from the other AoE when they look at the overall damage numbers on recount. Though if you dps as the 32/39 spec (main ability you use was HB)spec you hear it from just about every dps in the raid no matter what the situation.

Satorri
02-03-2009, 08:53 AM
Disease juggling is a term for DK tanks that came in 3.08, it allowed us to disease a target and pestilence, after the first pestilence it allowed us to spread the diseases or refresh the other targets diseases, so the idea was instead of wasting a frost and unholy and a pestilence you could just use the pestilence and target something else and use pestilence again to refresh the entire groups diseases.

Technically, I (and others I'm sure) came up with this in the Beta, then they tacked a CD on Pest before it went live. And I cried. Now I celebrate once again!

Generally I'd consider this an advanced technique, especially for frost without Epidemic, since you have to be sharp and quick with your Pest spreads.

Nostro
02-03-2009, 10:28 AM
Hi all, long time reader first time poster.
I've been following this thread and trying to perfect my build, I was dps and then a dw tank pre-patch, but with the new runeforge and changes to the talents I have decided to go 2h tanking and I've always prefered the frost playstyle to any other spec.

I've come up with this spec - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGxxthebohoVosx0x) (was wondering if icy reach was worth it as well but decided to fill up bladed armor instead)

I was wondering if anyone could please look at it and tell what you think.:) thanks

edit: also any suggestions for glyphs? As i believe there has been some debate as to which are the best for frost tanking.

Eemo
02-03-2009, 01:08 PM
There is one point left to allocate, and I'm at a loss where to drop it. Deathchill is mostly useless with KM's proc rate. Hungering Cold is meh, Rune Tap seems ok. I could also go with 1% crit.

I absolutely love glyphed rune tap when tanking.

Instant 10% raid heal is win on fights like KT. That alone's enough to clutch heal someone through a frost blast. Just wish I could work the imp version into a frost tanking build.

anacron
02-04-2009, 05:07 AM
Hi,

I have read the post from the beggining and I think I have found my build and glyphs, here is the link http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0055000000000000000000000003250505130 530012301005101350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111315050406

Now the problem is the best rotation I can use with this build. I know I have to use 2 blood runes in order to obtain the parry buff, also I have to use Obliterate because of the glyph and Rune strike when available for extra aggro.

Could you please suggest the best rotation for these glyphs and talents?

Thanks in advance.

Tarrke
02-04-2009, 06:05 AM
Hi,

your build is something like mine with a few changes. First of all you may want to concider this build too. I really don't think that Merciless Combat worth 2 points, and really chill of the grave is a really good investisment.

That said I mainly use two kind of rotations depending if this is trash and I'm on the 3rd or 4th mob to be down, or this is trash and my DD are all out on mine, or if this is a boss. And a third rotation when I got an ae trash to tank.

Not lazy rotation :
IT PS Ob BS BS
Ob Ob Ob
repeat

Lazy rotation :
IT Ob Ob BS
Ob BS Ob
repeat

Think this is this, but really can't say for sure that this is the perfect rotation with one desease up.

AE Rotation :
DnD IT PS Pest (switch target)
HB Pest (switch target)
HB Pest (switch target)
...

Anyhow you'll want to :
1/ Keep your desease up
2/ RS whenever it's up
3/ Obli
4/ FS as runic dump
This is on single target, on multi target just Pest HB is great. A DnD at the opening is merly a way to pass my IT PS Pest combo and still get the mob on me and not on the SP. After that I don't loose a single mob to any caster. Be sure to warn your caster that the threat at the begining may be a little low, but after 2 or 3 death from that they'll just wait for 2 seconds and it's a win.

anacron
02-04-2009, 06:31 AM
Thank you for your quick and nice answer, I will change from merciless to chill of the grave. Regarding your AE rotation I suppose, I have to do something like this

DnD IT PS Pest (switch target)
HB Pest (switch target)
HB Pest (switch target)
Until IT and PS are down and then repeat
IT PS Pest
HB Pest
HB Pest
.....

Right?


Thanks again

Merko
02-04-2009, 06:34 AM
I ran some numbers on the test dummy between the IT/PS/OBL/BS/BS OBL OBL OBL vs. IT/OBL/OBL/BS and even tho IT/OBL/OBL/BS put out better numbers than i thought it would. It was still putting out ~10% less dps. I know dummy =/= real raid situation but just trying to help the DK cause.

anacron
02-04-2009, 06:39 AM
Merko, the purpose of BS/BS is not only dps but for the talent blade barrier (buff for parrying). You have to consider the mitigation of damage not only the dps.

Satorri
02-04-2009, 06:48 AM
Incidentally, a little trick I picked up a while back, rather than burning your B rune CDs together, split them. If you separate them by a move or two it makes it much easier to keep Blade Barrier up. Instead of potentially having them both coming up and having to spend them both again (which I'm sure the sharpest tanks can still pull off the 1 sec window, but...), you can refresh the clock once every 5 seconds.

The trade off is that you don't apply it up front as quickly (though I can just by popping Rune Tap before I go in for single pulls, and DnD accomplishes that for me on group pulls), but it is solid and easy to maintain during a fight.

If you keep this mindset for staggering B CDs you may find it is one less thing you have to keep on top of.

Tardacus
02-04-2009, 06:58 AM
So far I have been having fun with frost. I went with a build that has KM and Icy Talons. I am not using OB at all in my rotations. In 25man I seem to hover at 3.5K TPS spiking to 4K now and then. My gear is mostly T7 with a few T7.5. I expect my TPS is a result of my gear not my talents or rotation but i could be wrong.

My single target rotation:
IT-PS-BS-BS-HB-FS
I also use RS often.

So far when MTing I have yet to have agro pulled from me but I saw a mage pulling 5K dps last trip to Naxx. A well geared warrior was tanking and was pulled 6K TPS. I hope that when I get all the spiffy Naxx gear my TPS will scale up.

My AOE roation:
D&D: IT-PS-PEST-HB-BB-FS

With KM crits I have had no problem at all with AOE.

anacron
02-04-2009, 07:27 AM
Hi Tardacus,

I don't know your glyphs and sigil, but I suppose that your weapon is a good one, so I think if you use OB instead of HB (specially for single target, where you can break a cc easyly) your TPS will scale up.

Merko
02-04-2009, 07:40 AM
Anacron... I was doing it for the purpose of comparing the 2 rotations, yes you are right it is optimal for your healers to put the BS BS before OBL, but for most fights you should pop your IBF as you run in so your healers don't have to worry as much about pre casting anyway. (not that its really necessary in nax but thats a whole nother topic)

No matter which way you do it, it is only 1.5seconds of blade barrier your saving... not really worth calling someone out when they are just posting information for tps analysis, which in no way matters which BS BS or OBL come first. So thank you and have a nice day

... and for that 1.5 second trade off your giving your dps a little extra breathing room incase they get a string of crits, so its really not all that terrible.

Tarrke
02-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Satorri,

usually I really get your point fast, but here I really don't :s I may be in a bad day or something but what is the point in breaking our BR ? I see that's what I'm doing as an ae pull, but honestly theses pull don't last enought (is that english btw ? I mean their duration is quite short as all the DD are giving all they can in ae) so I never noticed that my blade barrier was simplier to refresh.
I don't think I'm one of the sharpiest tanks but really keeping my BB up never got on my nerves, except for some bosses that stun or something like that (I've in mind King Imirion [really hope that's his name ^^] here) and as they all stand in instances they're no big deal. Even if they may come into raid dungeons, I assume my priority will then be : as soon as I got out of the stun, if the runes are here, just BS*2 then restack my desease, then restart a proper rotation as soon as I can.

I'll give it a try, as we say here, better try than die as a thumb.


@Tardacus :
Never ever say that your TPS comes from your stuff by pushing anything. A big part of your TPS IS your stuff, the same part as your DD's damage. But your rotation and your spec makes you unique, and therefore event if we got the same stuff and the same spec, we will never get exactly the same tps as we won't push the same button at the same time.
For us DK I'll say that our rotation is something you should rely on. The same night, the same raid, the same boss. We failed first attempt when a caster toke Patch out of me, with 5k dps and he complained that I wasn't pulling enought aggro. this night I've changed my opening and my rotation just to try and see. I've been pulling a nice 7k threat on Patch this night (if I trust omen and recount for that part). what have I done to get something like that ? Not so much, just went out of my old DnD rotation to a new one, the one I use today.
That said, never neglect your weapon, this is a great part of your tps.

Tardacus
02-04-2009, 11:27 AM
I guess half the fun of playing a DK is that there are so many different ways to get the job done. I lub this forum, gives me so many idea to try out.

Bountard
02-05-2009, 08:16 AM
Here is a link to my armory : The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Conseil+des+Ombres&n=Bountardos)
Ok so i have some kind of blood spec right now, just testing some things.

I'm trying to settle down for a solid TPS build, for bosse's. I haven't got any luck with heigan dropping the sigil yet, but have acces to all the other sigil's. Oh, and no weapon drops for either.

With my guild, we are missing Sartha 2D and 3D. I dont usually have any TPS problems, maybe on Malygos sometimes against a Affliction warlock.

What you think would be a good spec/rotation for a single target boss?
When i was frost, i used BT-> IT-OB-OB-BS-RP dump. Is it really any good?
Wondering otherwise if : IT-PS-BS-OB-BS-RP dump-OBx3 would be better?

Satorri
02-06-2009, 06:22 AM
Oh, Tarrke, what I'm talking about isn't necessary, but I find it slightly easier ergonomics to keep Blade Barrier up non-stop.

The idea is simply not to always put your Blood rune pair right next to each other. If you use a B rune, then anything else, then the other, it creates a stagger so you're always hitting the available B rune while the other is on CD (thus triggering a Blade Barrier refresh). If both B runes are available you have to do 2 moves before it is refreshed. It's a subtle shift, but a handy one.

Fej
02-06-2009, 08:27 AM
To Plague Strike or not to Plague Strike, that is the question.

I've been playing with the IT/OB rotation with HBs for AOE and FS for runic dumps. DPS is better now that I got the OB Sigil finally. I am still using Demise cause the droprate for 2 handers in our guild closely resembles a Dyson.

So the question is, now that I got the Sigil, do I add PS back to the rotation for the incresed multiplier on OB or not? The spreadsheet has them very close in DPS with an edge towards no PS.

I'd really like to see them increase the initial damage on PS to be similar to untalented BS without the disease component. At least then it might be worth applying the disease in a raid environment.

Merko
02-06-2009, 08:57 AM
All i can say is beat up on a test dummy, you will see the difference.

jaydee
02-06-2009, 09:29 AM
Thinking of trying out the build below:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0EMZGgx0hez0hRVssx0t)

Things you'll note are that I dropped are:

Lichborne (will be relying on crab+valor and 21 sec IBF)
Chill of the Grave (somehow I find the flow of RP ok even without this)
Epidemic at 1/2 (+3 sec is enough for the diseases to cover the rotation)

Then I picked up the following:

Killing Machine (5/5)
Frost Aura (2/2)
Acclimation (3/3)
2H Weapon Spec (2/2)
Bladed Armor (5/5)

Added frost aura + acclimation to make sure I have enough magic resistance (pally aura won't stack, yes). From previous fights with acclimation, I often find it almost up at 3 stacks the whole time.

Killing Machine procs too often for slow 2H that it's too good to pass up for threat. 2H Weapon Spec + Bladed Armor makes sure when you swing, you swing hard enough. Better if hit + expertise minimums are met.

Do you guys think this will be ok? Would really appreciate your opinion.