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law90026
01-11-2009, 06:40 PM
So I managed to pick up the Wall of Terror a couple of weeks back and the Hero's Surrender last night.

I think Hero's Surrender is a better piece for avoidance/EH (dodge/parry/more sta) while Wall of Terror is more of a trash tanking item or for fights like Loatheb (more SBV). However, I was discussing this with another tank and he feels that Wall of Terror is a better piece. I think he takes that view because he's a a pally and SBV is potentially a better stat for them (but I could be wrong about that of course).

Any thoughts on this? (and it's going to be a bitch to regem/enchant because of loss of def again)

Omok
01-11-2009, 07:14 PM
Barricade of Eternity - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40475) for main tanking.
Hero's Surrender - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40266) for progression tanking.
Wall of Terror - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40400) for trash tanking.

protonly
01-11-2009, 07:17 PM
WoT has the highest armor and does up your block rating, maybe he likes those stats better than others. I personally would never unequip Hero's Surrender just because of the looks factor :P

Crunch the numbers in a calculator, see which offers the extra fractional of a percent higher success rate. That's what I do :)

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 01:59 AM
Well Hero's Surrender is more a Paladin shield than a warrior shield.. Personally i favor Wall of Terror. Got it a few days ago myself and i love it!

DeviousOne
01-12-2009, 03:22 AM
How is it more of a paladin shield than warrior? It has everything a warrior wants. Stamina, defense and avoidance.

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 03:29 AM
Its more of a paladin shield becase of the high dodge, the only usefull thing on it really is the parry. Wall of Terror has Block + High Def rating which is most important for a warrior tank.

manbearpig
01-12-2009, 03:39 AM
I'd say that dodge is A LOT better than block for warrior when raiding.

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 03:46 AM
There is dodge on Wall of Terror also. So i'd rather take Dodge/Block/High Def rating over Hero's...

A warrior tanks main prio should be parry/block.. People just tend to go for dodge since its the easiest avoidance to get.

Galushi
01-12-2009, 03:49 AM
They're both tank shields. Theres nothing about any of them that says its more Warrior or more Paladin. Both classes make pretty much equal benefit out of both shields.

I agree with Omok on this. Barricade is the only with threat stats (expertise) and would be a threat shield of the 3. Hero's surrender has the highest avoidance of them, and Wall of Terror is better suited to trash/ae tanking because Shield Block becomes better the weaker your target hits you.

manbearpig
01-12-2009, 03:50 AM
There is dodge on Wall of Terror also. So i'd rather take Dodge/Block/High Def rating over Hero's...

A warrior tanks main prio should be parry/block.. People just tend to go for dodge since its the easiest avoidance to get.
Defense>dodge>parry>block imo

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 03:54 AM
Def>Parry>dodge/block :p

Parry is better than dodge for a warrior tank

iofe
01-12-2009, 03:55 AM
How on earth is parry better for a warrior tank then dodge?

Crommi
01-12-2009, 04:18 AM
If you find yourself in situation where your dodge is ~50% and parry at 5%, parry rating could actually give more avoidance per point :rolleyes:
But any real situation, dodge gives more avoidance per point and is the way to go until defense becomes more effective at some point after 20%.

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 04:20 AM
You also gain Rage from parries and you dont from Dodge, unless they changed that in wotlk :> havent really noticed

Galushi
01-12-2009, 04:23 AM
you dont gain rage from the parry, your next white hit is just hasted, similar to parry haste bosses get. The slight increase from threat with a tank weapon and parrys is pretty small.
bigger deal for 2h DK tanks tho.

Nardd
01-12-2009, 04:24 AM
Def>Parry>dodge/block :p

Parry is better than dodge for a warrior tank

Perhaps you should review this thread: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42074-balancing-avoidance-ratings.html

Hengist
01-12-2009, 05:18 AM
You also gain Rage from parries and you dont from Dodge, unless they changed that in wotlk :> havent really noticed
I can't believe how many people repeated this for all of TBC and it was never true... You don't get rage for parries.

RingWraith
01-12-2009, 05:23 AM
I can't believe how many people repeated this for all of TBC and it was never true... You don't get rage for parries.

You do get rage from parries... Its dodge you dont get it from.

Dots
01-12-2009, 07:42 AM
You get rage if you are parried, but you don't get rage when you parry. Besides, it would be a minor issue anyway, dodge would still be better than parry rating unless you somehow got to the level where you get more avoidance from parry rating than from dodge rating.

As others have said:
BoE for main tanking, Hero's is almost the same but I would rather take the extra defense and expertise instead of dodge if you tend to stand in front of bosses. Wall of Terror for trash.

Galushi
01-12-2009, 08:18 AM
You do get rage from parries... Its dodge you dont get it from.

No, you don't. You get nothing from both. It might appear you get rage from it cuz you practically get your white swing timer refreshed and get a white hit it, which generates rage. But you do not gain rage from purely avoiding an attack via a parry.

Conreeaght
01-12-2009, 08:41 AM
Regardless of the unusual suggestions about rage generation through parry...Are we also forgetting how bad parry is punished by the Diminishing Returns monster? That is the true reason I (as a warrior) prefer dodge. However, anything after stam, armor, defense, sockets, hit, expertise is just considered 'nice to have.'

Oh, and I'll use the old hunter analogy to solve the classism debate: "If I can equip it, I can roll on it." (of course, I'm not that greedy, but to illustrate a point.)

loquatious
01-12-2009, 08:45 AM
Dodge > Parry.

If parry comes on gear, well wth take it, but as its been pointed out its not a good idea to gem for it or to take the parry armor over another piece of the same general quality without it.

Khue
01-12-2009, 08:50 AM
Does resetting a swing timer affect GCD? Or just white? I was under the impression that a reset of the swing timer affectively resets GCD.

It would be super sweet if it did reset the GCD and in that instance you could seriously argue that parry is more of an asset then dodge (dps, rage generation, and threat gain would all be affected).

Tankette
01-12-2009, 09:05 AM
I picked up the Heroes Surrender last night. The two pally tanks that were ahead of me in epgp didn't chime in that they wanted it. I guess they are still needing all the defense from their Titansteel Shieldwalls. I'm not normally one to care about how equipment looks but I have to say Heroes Surrender looks bad azz.

I'll have to use my Titansteel Shieldwall with my frost resist set. I use the shield out of Strat, Royal Crest of Lordaeron, with a shiled spike for heroics.

Lore
01-12-2009, 09:05 AM
Resetting a swing timer does nothing for your GCD.

Parry also doesn't reset your swing timer, it hastes your attack by a percentage based on how long you had left to swing.

tPaste
01-12-2009, 01:41 PM
You do get rage from parries... Its dodge you dont get it from.

Galushi is right, you do not get rage from Parries. That is a myth.

HOWEVER, if you are attacking with a special and your attack is dodged you lose the rage that you would have spend. If you are parried you do not lose the cost in rage of the attack. I think this aspect is misunderstood and causes the myth to persist.

Formulas:Parry - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Parry)
(See the note about Rage Generation).

DeviousOne
01-12-2009, 01:55 PM
There is dodge on Wall of Terror also. So i'd rather take Dodge/Block/High Def rating over Hero's...

A warrior tanks main prio should be parry/block.. People just tend to go for dodge since its the easiest avoidance to get.

Do you really know anything about tanking at all? Or are you just spewing forth what random people say?

Dodge is as important to warriors as it is to paladins.

Rampart
01-12-2009, 06:38 PM
All the people that think parry > dodge have issues. Shield block rating does really nothing for main tanking in raids, unless you like to step into 5 mans and see all the guys hit like pansies. Point for point, dodge > parry do to it giving more avoidance AND for not diminishing nearly as quickly as parry. Hence, you never gem for parry.

RingWraith
01-13-2009, 02:04 AM
Galushi is right, you do not get rage from Parries. That is a myth.

HOWEVER, if you are attacking with a special and your attack is dodged you lose the rage that you would have spend. If you are parried you do not lose the cost in rage of the attack. I think this aspect is misunderstood and causes the myth to persist.

Formulas:Parry - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Parry)
(See the note about Rage Generation).

Well i am sorry then for my miss-informing then =)...


@ DeviousOne, yes i have, From MC to SWP to Sarth 10/25 with 3 drakes up... pretty much tanked everything wow has to offer.

MestHoop
01-14-2009, 06:33 AM
For those who say WoT is better for pallies:
It has too much block value >_<
I'm currently using the BoE and I'm horrily block capped

The amount of stats wasted on extra block from WoT would just make the "upgrade" pointless

robbon
01-14-2009, 08:04 AM
i have heroes and love it. The fact i look like a walking BBQ is a mute point but still its doen me fine as a warrior tank and i know our pally tank would love it also.

I agree with other posts above.. WoT is more a trash/heroic spank item imo and i wouldnt be using my DKP to replace heroes in any great rush.

I still have my titanshield in the bag for frost spec for the pure def boost.

And to add to the argument ... im defintely, wholley and well and truly of the opinion that for warrior tanks its DEF>Dodge>Parry>Block. Unless your building a block set ofc.

Dhalphir
01-14-2009, 08:09 AM
I would argue that Barricade of Eternity is more of a trash shield than Wall of Terror, 28 expertise would seem to be more threat than the block rating and strength contribute.

I would also argue that of the three shields, Barricade of Eternity is the most well-rounded shield..an equal focus between threat and avoidance/survival.

orcstar
01-14-2009, 08:16 AM
I would argue that Barricade of Eternity is more of a trash shield than Wall of Terror, 28 expertise would seem to be more threat than the block rating and strength contribute.

I would also argue that of the three shields, Barricade of Eternity is the most well-rounded shield..an equal focus between threat and avoidance/survival.
Depends how you tank trash. Shockwave and thunderclap rely on hit alone, not expertise. And a lot of AoE threat comes from them, also more blockrating will give you more often a block=more often damage shield.

robbon
01-14-2009, 08:17 AM
just a shame that barricade drops from malygos..which is generally completed after your guild has done all the hard progression work.....

DeviousOne
01-14-2009, 01:13 PM
Well i am sorry then for my miss-informing then =)...


@ DeviousOne, yes i have, From MC to SWP to Sarth 10/25 with 3 drakes up... pretty much tanked everything wow has to offer.

Then you have bad information.

Myzery
01-14-2009, 06:12 PM
Wow there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

Parry/dodges don't give you rage.

Diminishing returns aside, 1 parry rating = .8 dodge rating for avoidance.

Unless you've hit the DR cap for parry, you should value these stats as if there was no DR. I doubt anyone has hit the inflection points for DR on parry and dodge so for simplicity we should all assume 1 parry rating = .8 dodge rating +/-10%. Only hugely disproportionate amounts of dodge to parry will throw off this empirically accurate stat weight.

If you think DR affects your comparison of dodge to parry, show me your armory. You'll be suprised in how little DR affects the relative value of dodge and parry for 99% of all tanks out there.

You can compare block rating to parry rating/dodge rating, but you need to know averaged SBV and average hit size. It's more complicated.

There are no talents, abilities, or mechanics that would have paladins value dodge or parry differently then warrior.

The expertise cap is FAR lower on trash, making the WoT superior unless you have a abysmally low expertise rating. WoT adds +20 Str (10 SBV) and 6 block value and some armor (AttT for warriors) at the expense of 28 expertise rating on the Barricade.

Bottom line: Both shields rock! Both are the best in the game for warriors and pallys. It really depends on your current stats, and the specific encounter.

Dhalphir
01-15-2009, 11:59 PM
Depends how you tank trash. Shockwave and thunderclap rely on hit alone, not expertise. And a lot of AoE threat comes from them, also more blockrating will give you more often a block=more often damage shield.

Damage Shield procs from unblocked hits too, more block rating doesn't increase the amount of damage shield procs unless its accompanied by a reduction in dodge and parry as well.

swelt
02-01-2009, 10:54 AM
I now have all 3 of the shields (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40400;40475;40266) and have been wondering how best to make use of them. I'm not just thinking about which to use, but which enchant to apply. I've been using wall of terror with a +def enchant. It occurred to me that it might be a better idea to put a +SBV kit on there and use it specifically as a threat shield, while using one of the other two with a +def enchant when mitigation is the priority. On the other hand, perhaps the barricade with it's expertise is a better candidate for the threat enchant...

Is anyone else doing something like this?

Fayre
02-01-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't have the Malygos shield, but I'm running with the +def enchant on Heroes (for max. avoidance) and +SBV on WoT for trash & heroics. It just strikes me that it's better to play to the strength of each item, and I can be defense (crit reduction) capped in either set without much of a sacrifice.

ItZMuRdA
02-05-2009, 01:02 PM
Barricade of Eternity is my preference for most scenarios, and as others have said, I keep all 3 shields with different enchant choices for different situations. Really the best way to go atm imo. Each shield offers you defense + 1 avoidance stat, then an extra stat unique to that shield. Wall of Terror, for instance, offers you more block rating (and even slightly more block value and armor from the ilvl 226), whereas Hero's Surrender offers you pure avoidance through a second avoidance stat, and ultimately Barricade offers you the threat alternative with the addition of expertise. As I said, Barricade is my preference in most situations atm, but all three are very nice shields that fit both a Paladin and a Warrior just fine. Hang onto them, try out different enchants, and find uses for them in different situations.

Kojiyama
02-06-2009, 04:50 AM
I think people may be underselling the Wall of Terror a bit.

Yes, the Block Rating is overbudget and less useful than normal avoidance, but it still contributes some resonable level of value. That paired with the increased armor makes it a competitive option from my point of view.

Don't undersell the armor difference, it's actually quite substantial.

Shields don't have a large item budget compared to the primary slots and most of their benefit is actually the innate armor on them which increases with ilevel. Realistically, the mods on shields are not really the most important part about them. New shields in new dungeons are generally a massive upgrade to tanking not because of the mods, but because of the armor increase.

As showed in the EJ thread about item level mechanics (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44718-item_level_mechanics/), you'll see shields are on the 3rd tier of mod budgets, equal to Bracers, Cloaks, Necks, and Rings.

However, if you look at comparable slots by mod budget, you'll see that none of those have huge levels (and Rings with none!) of innate armor on them. Going from ilevel 200 -> 213, a Bracer gains a whole 15 armor and a cloak gains mighty 4 armor.

On the other hand, the Wall of Terror has 168 armor more than the ilevel 213 shields, which in item-budget terms adds a huge amount of value to the item.

Although having a bit lower Stamina (which could be a problem, depending on the situation or the other pieces of gear) the overall avoidance/survivability of the Wall of Terror is probably the best of all 3 shields when factoring in average blocks (even on 40k+ base damage boss attacks) and armor contributions.

The Barricade of Eternity is probably the best 'all-around' piece, especially if you need more expertise, but it is quite a bit lower than either of the other two in terms of actual mitigation.

In regard to Hero's Surrender vs. Wall of Terror--Wall of Terror has slightly higher mitigation and notably higher TPS, Hero's Surrender has slightly higher HP. Personally, I prefer the Wall of Terror in almost every case, as when pushing 30k+ unbuffed HP, the loss of a bit of HP is worth less to me than increased assured reduction from armor and the contribution from block% (which, while not as perfect as pure avoidance, is still notable when pushing 1.4k block in raids.)

In the end, though, they come out rather close to eachother in value. Although that is a testament to the Wall of Terror's bad design (being that it is the next tier up in ilevels, it should be a lot better than it is)--but the brute force of the armor does help make up for it quite a bit.

veneretio
02-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Barricade of Eternity > Hero's Surrender > Wall of Terror.

As to this thought that Parry is good for Warriors. No, you're wrong.

Kojiyama
02-06-2009, 09:02 AM
Barricade of Eternity > Hero's Surrender > Wall of Terror.

As to this thought that Parry is good for Warriors. No, you're wrong.

Other than Stamina, what is the argument for Hero's Surrender?

If you run the numbers, even against a hard-hitting boss at 2s+ attack speeds you will most likely take less damage with the Wall of Terror equipped than Hero's Surrender and you will have notably higher TPS with the increased Block Value and Attack Power.

Wall of Terror is basically superior in every way save 21 Stamina.

It gives far more flexibility in regard to 540 Defense-capping and swapping to lower-Defense pieces with higher TPS or avoidance, the mitigation through armor is more reliable than normal avoidance and just as effective, and it avoids the nasty bloat on Parry's item budget and diminishing returns.

Barricade I can recommend if you want more Expertise, as it's a solid design otherwise. But, honestly, I would rate Hero's Surrender as the worst of the 3, at least for Warriors. Even on bosses, I find the argument that 0.25% avoidance is better than 2% block and 0.15% guaranteed armor reduction to be quite tenuous.

The Wall of Terror seems to be coming ahead by about 0.07% total average melee damage mitigation against even hard-hitting bosses with 40k base melee swings. (And 0.15% ahead vs. the Barricade of Eternity.)

veneretio
02-06-2009, 09:52 AM
Wall of Terror
7 Str
168 Armor
5 Block Value
13 Defense
31 Block

Hero's Surrender
21 Sta
6 Dodge
30 Parry

1. 168 Armor + 8 BV vs 21 Stamina
2. 13 Defense + 31 Block vs 6 Dodge and 30 Parry

The stamina wins #1 pretty handily and while you could make an argument for #2 to go to the block side, it's a pretty minor advantage if it is at all. So, I'd give the nod to Hero's Surrender b/c of the Stamina advantage illustrated in point #1.

Hero's Surrender isn't leaps and bounds ahead of Wall of Terror, but I'd say it's ahead nonetheless.

Kojiyama
02-06-2009, 11:27 AM
My only major point is simply that many people undersell the mitigation on the Wall of Terror, because part of it is unsexy armor and part of it is unsexy block.

However, it is a fact that in almost every case the Wall of Terror has more mitigation/threat than Hero's Surrender and a lot more mitigation than Barricade of Eternity. (It is also almost the same TPS if you are soft-capped on Expertise already, with the Barricade mostly coming out ahead if you still have dodge% to remove.)

While one could make the argument that 21 stamina is a make-or-break, I find the higher mitigation plus the added headroom to the ever-present 540 def cap issue is worth the shift.

My objection in all these threads is that people ignore the armor and the block and seem to say that an exceptionally minor amount of avoidance such as 0.25% will somehow beat 168 armor and 2% block--which is not my experience in any figures I've looked at.

Kazeyonoma
02-06-2009, 11:41 AM
Yeh, i have heroes and it's amazing as a full on avoidance shield but if wall dropped i'd roll on it in a heartbeat, it's just a flat out higher ilvl shield with good stats, the loss of stam is tough but i think worth it in current content.

Schwegburt
02-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Parry. Been said before but it'll be said again. Warriors DO NOT FAVOR PARRY!! Parry isn't a bad stat but compared to Dodge it's inferior. The auto swing bonus from parry should be negligible io. The rating to 1% conversion's the highest out of avoidance stats. And the Diminishing returns imposed on Parry make it fall behind Dodge's diminishing returns faster.

Been stated before but Block Rating is a convenience. Unless you're multi tanking full sets of adds or a boss that hits really fast Block rating is low on the list of stat priorities. Most progression bosses that cause trouble for Tanks are the slower hard hitting bosses that drastically reduce Block's usefulness.

greendragonempire
02-06-2009, 02:41 PM
Yeh, i have heroes and it's amazing as a full on avoidance shield but if wall dropped i'd roll on it in a heartbeat, it's just a flat out higher ilvl shield with good stats, the loss of stam is tough but i think worth it in current content.

Ok ppl, stop being crazy!!

WoT >>>>>> Heros

Why?

more dps .. less stm/avoid is the argument right?
You can tank ALL content in a full set of block gear, so thus stm/avoid usefullness trends to ZERO

Also, When I'm pking pesky rogues who try and take my ore / and or aoe faming, my block set does a hell lot more than dodge.

greendragonempire
02-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Parry. Been said before but it'll be said again. Warriors DO NOT FAVOR PARRY!! Parry isn't a bad stat but compared to Dodge it's inferior. The auto swing bonus from parry should be negligible io. The rating to 1% conversion's the highest out of avoidance stats. And the Diminishing returns imposed on Parry make it fall behind Dodge's diminishing returns faster.

Been stated before but Block Rating is a convenience. Unless you're multi tanking full sets of adds or a boss that hits really fast Block rating is low on the list of stat priorities. Most progression bosses that cause trouble for Tanks are the slower hard hitting bosses that drastically reduce Block's usefulness.

What progression bosses are you speaking of, because all content has been cleared and you do not know what is coming in uldar.

Dreg
02-06-2009, 04:01 PM
i only have WoT atm, however of all three sheilds i would see my self using heros the least. in current content atleast.

WoT = trash
BoE = bosses
Heroes = maybe patchwerk?

abude0000
02-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Why is no one talking about block? i kno it is not pure avoidance but it helps ALOT imo. From my min being a palli tank i kno that we r blocking beasts and my parry is low (16.89%) i currently using Barricade of Eternity for MT and i have Hero's surrendor in my inventory and imo i like to use hero's for trash because of the high avoidance and yes it has more avoidance.