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View Full Version : Shielding a Prot. Warrior before a pull a no no?



Orifice
01-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Is it truly a no no now to shield a warrior pre pull?
From my understanding the threat mechanics have changed since Lich King was released. I have healed as a Disc priest all the way up to Malygos heroic and have been shielding tanks this way from day one of the release of LK.
Today I lead a raid into 10 man Naxx to gear up some of our newer members and the lead tank for the raid a prot warrior was adamant about not shielding him before any pull or anytime he needed to get rage for threat generation....that is the first time since the LK release that any tank has had an issue with it and I promptly told him that. So what is the current situation with prot warrior threat generation and does shielding effect rage build up that much or does this prot warrior now know what he is doing? he especially said it was an issue during the four horseman when the two front tank have to trade bosses....

Rybio
01-11-2009, 04:36 PM
I have never had a probelm with it myself, fairly easy to get a decent amount initial threat on bosses nowdays. I don't know the mechanics behind PW:S tho.

Warwench
01-11-2009, 04:38 PM
I'd say nothing has changed, we still need to be hit to generate rage, so being shielded on the pull means very little rage to work with.

Churles
01-11-2009, 04:41 PM
Shielding a warrior will make him absorb damage, thus until the shield is broken the only rage he will be getting (or most of it anyhow) will be from his white hits.

White hits are not normally sufficient to keep up a proper threat rotation.
Thus at the start of fights (especially if the dps like to start right off as they always do) it is better to let the tank take a hit to get rage and begin his normal threat rotation.

There are only a few reasons I can think of that your other tanks have not complained. Those being:
1. The dps are better trained and as such wait for a sufficient amount of threat.
2. The tanks get blessing of sanctuary a buff that greatly increases the amount of rage, mana, runic power that a tank recieves during a fight.
3. They simply havent noticed it on their buff bar.

To simplify, try not to shield before a pull, (except maybe on patchwerk).

Rude
01-11-2009, 04:45 PM
Typically, you should get enough rage off of bloodrage and charge to get whatever initial abilities you need in. If you've got borrowed time and a lot of spellpower, I can see it adversely affecting rage gain from trash that doesn't hit very hard.

But you're probably talking what.. 3500 damage? 4000? So that lasts through maybe two swings off a boss, assuming you get hit. And I think that could be where the problem lies for some people. If you're avoiding hits while you're shielded, you're not getting rage, and you're not diminishing the shield for times when you will take hits.

During an encounter shouldn't be an issue for rage generation.

Rude
01-11-2009, 04:47 PM
3. They simply havent noticed it on their buff bar.


It can't be much of an issue if you don't notice it.

Omok
01-11-2009, 06:17 PM
I prefer not to be shielding before pulling, but it's not too big of a deal.

Tristessa
01-11-2009, 06:45 PM
I think it's best to take it simply: if you notice the tank taking quite a bit of damage, then PW:S.

I personally pull (single-targets) with a ranged+Heroic Throw+Charge combo, using Bloodrage if I find that I don't have enough rage for a Shield Slam--so I've never had any trouble with rage at the start of the fight, ever.

dotJEM
01-12-2009, 02:48 AM
As already said...

It ofc. has the same effect as before, the thing is though, protection warriors has many abilities to get his rage up initially by other means, and when first its running, threat generation seems to be no issue.

But other than that, it does ofc affect his abillity to get rage.

Why he claims it's an issue during switching the front bosses on four horsemen I really don't know, this is not a pull, so at that point he should already have sufficient rage. And with the way taunt works today, something must be wrong if he things it's an issue in that exact transition, either he doesn't know how taunt works today, or something else is wrong IMO.

However I don't have much endgame tank experience as a warrior enymore, my own ain't leveled up and I only briefly "borrowed" another's because he couldn't go on a Naxx 25 day, and I was already saved on my DK...

Galushi
01-12-2009, 03:11 AM
What Tristessa said. With rage from charge/bloodrage and heroic throw costing no rage, even if you dont aactually take dmg for the first couple swings shouldnt be a huge deal. I also have talented/glyphed for 8 rage thunderclaps. Usually a throw, shield slam, TC and then a cheap revenge will buy me enough time to be brimming with rage. You can also berserker rage when you run in to boost your rage gain from dmg.

Dhalphir
01-12-2009, 03:15 AM
Rage-based tanks are the only ones that do not like to be shielded on the pull.

Paladins need to be hit to receive mana back from heals, but unlike a warrior or druid, their resource bar starts off full, so shielding them on the pull is fine. Shielding warriors is fine, just wait 10 seconds.

Myzery
01-12-2009, 11:25 AM
DPS race = don't shield on pull.

Survival fight = it's ok to shield on pull.

A warrior tank should be able to gain aggro with shield, but if you have overzealous dps or need maximum dps it isn't optimal.

Shields after ~10 seconds are great.

Rage starvation sucks.

cudmaster
01-12-2009, 01:05 PM
To simplify, try not to shield before a pull, (except maybe on patchwerk).

I threw my shoe (thrown main hand axes look like shoes to my guild somehow, and did even before the bush incident) to pull patchy and then charged it as is my typical "I need rage" sort of thing to do... and it hit me with a normal attack and a hateful (because I was the only one in melee range for a split second there), making me dead.

So... I don't charge patchwerk anymore.

If your MT is dumb enough to try charging patchwerk more than once in his life, you might have no choice but to PW:S him and give a full rack of HoTs, a PoM, and try to time a greater heal, oh and have a finger on your threat dump(s).

Probably easier just to ask him kindly to not charge though.

On the other hand, when off-tanking patchwerk I've found that I frequently have to stop attacking completely or I'll pull agro. So making the MT even more rage starved by PW:Sing on them, would kind of be a dick move on your part, in my opinion.

Summary: I'd specifically advise AGAINST PW:Sing the MAIN tank on the pull (they take almost no damage anyway) for patchwerk (and if he/she is geared, don't do it ever they will be rage starved enough as it is), but I strongly advise that you DO PW:S the OFF-tank(s), on the pull and as much as you want through the fight... It'll do more good there from a healing perspective, and possibly cut the OT's rage supply enough that they won't have to pay attention to avoid pulling off your MT.

(of course some of us like flipping agro back and forth on fights like this just to make sure our healers are awake.)

Hypatia
01-12-2009, 01:23 PM
The main thing is just: As a healer, be willing to try changing things to not shield if your tank asks you to. Tanks: Be willing to try changing things and accept shield if your healers ask you to.

Examples of places where shield is almost certainly a poor choice: the start of an AoE pull. (Every bit of rage needed, hits aren't that big.)

Same things holds for all 5-man content, really: don't do it unless you absolutely know that it's needed, because the tank will have a use for all of that rage. You can use it later when the tank isn't sucking mud trying to get off the ground.


Examples of places where shield could be a very good choice: "Complex pull" fights (i.e. fights where people are moving into position during the pull) where healers need a moment or two to settle before the really efficient healing can start, but the boss(es) hits with enough force to be scary.


The key thing is that the healing team and tanking team ought to be communicating well. If either side has a thought about what might make a given fight easier, they should throw it out for consideration and see what's what. Worst case scenario, your counterparts on the other side will immediately see a reason why it's a bad idea. But if not, "Hmm, okay, let's try it" works out pretty well. :)

Kinetix
01-12-2009, 04:26 PM
I notice the rage starvation from PW:S almost instantly. There is another buff i've had that absorbs damage. But I cant remember who casts it.

Berzerker
01-12-2009, 04:47 PM
Hypatia, you sound like someone that has either seen both sides of the tanking/healing coin, or else you just really think like a tank :P

I have to be honest, I read the first two lines of your post, and thought you were nuts, but reading the rest of it, you make a dead-on case for the in's and out's of shielding. There are definitely cases where a shield would make a big difference, while splitting out pulls between tanks and coordinating position -- those cases being the exception to the rule. And likely MOST important in those exceptional cases is that the DPS be aware to lay off until everything is ready and the tank is good on rage before they lay in.

For the other cases, just wait until the warrior has a good bit of rage and use it to buffer some of the damage, instead of trying to force it at the beginning, or do it on chain pulls where the warrior already has a good deal of rage going into the pull. It's not that we hate the shields, we just hate not having the rage to work with.

mastersam562
01-12-2009, 04:50 PM
I notice the rage starvation from PW:S almost instantly. There is another buff i've had that absorbs damage. But I cant remember who casts it.

Thats probably paladins sacred shield?

mavfin
01-13-2009, 03:08 AM
If I'm rage-starved, I didn't need the shield. If I'm getting hit hard enough to need the shield, rage won't be a problem.

Hypatia pretty much covered it. You can shield me on Patch if you want. I won't mind. I have all the rage I need to start on him. But if I'm at 0 rage, and about to start a LOS 5-man pull where I can't charge in, hold the shield for a moment till you see my bar tick up and the mobs hitting me. I'm really not trying to make your job hard. If I can't get rage, believe me, your job will get a lot harder, as the mobs will be chasing you!

IKT
01-13-2009, 03:26 AM
use prayer of mending instead of pw:s ?

Delicatesse
01-13-2009, 03:31 AM
Don't ever preshield tanks before a pull. (Well... mostly don't...) Maybe DKs are not affected negatively, but all other tanks definetly are.
Preshielding is only good if the boss hits HARD, I mean patch 25 or malygos 25. All other bosses more or less hit like a girl, so you gain nothing but make the initial aggro generation harder.

nefaisrien
01-13-2009, 05:14 AM
I notice the rage starvation from PW:S almost instantly. There is another buff i've had that absorbs damage. But I cant remember who casts it.

First post here:)

Could also be from a previous crit heal from a discipline priest. Divine Aegis looks much more 'bubbly' than PW:Shield does.

As a druid tank, I prefer not to get shielded on the initial pull. I'm not all that knowledgeable yet on the mechanics. I know I get rage from dodging, critting, but I also believe I get some from being hit.

As a rule, when I heal on my priest, I tend to not bubble the tank, except when moving (4 horsemen for example) or 'oh crap, tank's going to die'. The protection of the shield + glyph, has saved a few wipes.

Kinetix
01-13-2009, 06:41 AM
Thats probably paladins sacred shield?

It was actually this. Sacred Shield is the other culprit.

westernfox
01-13-2009, 07:51 AM
It was actually this. Sacred Shield is the other culprit.

I'm curious as to how prot warriors feel about getting Sacred Shielded before pulls (bosses and trash), when I raid heal I always drop it (and beacon) on the MT (usually a warrior) and have never had any complaints, does this interfere at all with warrior rage generation or do most prot warriors prefer it or not care one way or the other ?

Sangi
01-13-2009, 08:05 AM
As a warrior tank the only times that I have rage starvation issues is during AoE pulls where I am cleaving every single swing. I can't recall on any 3-5 heroic trash mob pull where I have no rage. On boss pulls one hit eats the shield and then some. Wrath is a rage rich environment as a warrior. My biggest problem with my rotation right now is dumping all my rage.

I think the aversion that warrior tanks have to not being shielded is a hold over from pre-Wrath where it was a no-no.

frim
01-13-2009, 01:59 PM
Spam shields all you want on boss fights after i have my heels dug in, but please not on a pull unless the boss is just going to one shot the shield off of me and I have enough rage to get that first SSlam/devistate in there.

I think most view points on this subject are pretty well covered in the thread, I just though I'd add a personal point. My fiancee plays a priest and used to shield me in some of the less opportune times (AoE pulls, low rage situations etc). The solution is quite simple, don't start a fight with your healer or start chest thumping on how you are so good at this and know everything about that and just keep your stupid shields to yourself... just quietly click off the buff and move on :) After the instance bring it up and mention that in some situations is a good tool, but be careful to look at your tank's rage bar first. If its low, don't shield. If its high and the tank is getting hit regularly, go for it!

Nucleus
01-13-2009, 07:54 PM
PW:S is a big no no in heroics. Especially prior to engaging a group or single mob. It gets worst with a Disc Priest since they will proc Divine Aegis.

I ran heroic VH just a few days back. I had to literally swap some of my gears in order to obtain enough rage to keep the AOE bunch of dpsers happy. With sufficient avoidance, u will notice the PW:S staying with u for a while.

I'd recommend only PW:S the tank in a 'oh shit' situation. Else just throw any HoTs or just spot heal your tank.

Shielding your tank prior to a pull is laziness. You can pre-heal and cancel it.

Jungy
01-16-2009, 05:52 AM
For me its not a big deal at all. Mitigates some burst dmg and such, and if my healer is comfortable with it then I dont bother in their rotation. Personally, I feel that if I'm at zero rage before each pull, im not going fast enough. You shouldnt be burning rage that quickly at the end of a pull.

I like to stop at around 10% of the mobs health, take a few hits while the DPS finish it off, that leaves me with about 20-30 rage, just enough for a SS or HS.

Morgo
01-16-2009, 06:06 AM
I had Maexxna running wild on me the other day because of 2 parrys from the boss, and 2 dodges by me, followed by a block, with the rest of the damage absorbed by a shield that a PuG disc. priest casted on me... Not fun. And in 5mans, whenever i see a bubble of any kind on me, I click it off. period. In case a situation arises, which warrants shielding me, I will be busy enough hammering my OH SHIT buttons, so I won't have time klicking it off then :D

Haarg
01-17-2009, 06:17 AM
I'd prefer them to not do it but I've never been that anal about what the healers think they need to do (My main up until LK was my resto shaman)
If your dps isn't balls to the wall from the second you pull it's not a problem.

And situations where a bubble would save your life are few and far between, but I'm not going to be sitting there clicking off bubbles just to spite the priest, at least all the priests I run with use it when they plan to not be healing, like shackling a mob or they are focusing on healing someone else just to buy them a second of not worrying about my health.

squats
01-17-2009, 10:26 AM
It really depends on how your tank starts the fight. as a warrior i never have an issue with the boss running towards the person who shielded me because i start every fight with a bloodthirst then a charge and immediately shield slam when im in range. the only boss fight that i wish not to be shielded on is saph, assuming its the first pull, i run in before his spawned and spam SS until it hits, however if a totem is down or im sheilded there is a rare chance that he might turn twards the raid and start off with a cleave, and thats always bad (its only ever happend to me once.. i was having a bad day)

Aethraen
01-17-2009, 11:13 AM
For me its not a big deal at all. Mitigates some burst dmg and such, and if my healer is comfortable with it then I dont bother in their rotation. Personally, I feel that if I'm at zero rage before each pull, im not going fast enough. You shouldnt be burning rage that quickly at the end of a pull.

I like to stop at around 10% of the mobs health, take a few hits while the DPS finish it off, that leaves me with about 20-30 rage, just enough for a SS or HS.

This.
I've never had problems with being shielded before pulls, even in BC or Vanilla WoW. In Wrath it's also much less of an issue with Bloodrage/Charge giving 25-45 rage right off the bat to work with.
It's slightly more of an issue on my Druid for AoE groups since he can't TC etc. but I can still conserve rage/enrage before a pull and pick stuff up just fine with Swipe or Berserk Mangle.
Keep in mind (virtually) all bosses are tauntable, so it's hardly an issue to taunt it back on you at the start of a fight.
I get annoyed by Deathknights taunting bosses off me for some god awful reason (Is it bad I like to let them die just to spite them?), not Priests/Pallies bubbling me on the pull

squats
01-17-2009, 11:21 AM
I had Maexxna running wild on me the other day because of 2 parrys from the boss, and 2 dodges by me, followed by a block, with the rest of the damage absorbed by a shield that a PuG disc. priest casted on me... Not fun. And in 5mans, whenever i see a bubble of any kind on me, I click it off. period. In case a situation arises, which warrants shielding me, I will be busy enough hammering my OH SHIT buttons, so I won't have time klicking it off then :Dso, if he got to attack you at least 3 times, i know for sure that if you opened with a bloodthirst and a charge, fallowed by a SS>hs>rev. there is no way that shield would cause you to drop aggro..:(

Ari
01-17-2009, 03:57 PM
Is it truly a no no now to shield a warrior pre pull?
From my understanding the threat mechanics have changed since Lich King was released. I have healed as a Disc priest all the way up to Malygos heroic and have been shielding tanks this way from day one of the release of LK.
Today I lead a raid into 10 man Naxx to gear up some of our newer members and the lead tank for the raid a prot warrior was adamant about not shielding him before any pull or anytime he needed to get rage for threat generation....that is the first time since the LK release that any tank has had an issue with it and I promptly told him that. So what is the current situation with prot warrior threat generation and does shielding effect rage build up that much or does this prot warrior now know what he is doing? he especially said it was an issue during the four horseman when the two front tank have to trade bosses....

I generally feel the same way about shielding before a pull as I do about using Heroic Strike: Only if I've got a considerable rage surplus (ie. over 50) do I really want to be shielded in a situation where I'm not going to die if I'm not shielded.

It's a little different when I'm not running with insane guild DPS who like to pull aggro whenever possible, but during trash packs rage certainly does matter, especially seeing I want to save bloodrage for emergency low-rage thunderclaps.

Morgo
01-17-2009, 05:55 PM
so, if he got to attack you at least 3 times, i know for sure that if you opened with a bloodthirst and a charge, fallowed by a SS>hs>rev. there is no way that shield would cause you to drop aggro..:(

It's not that I didn't land anything. It's just that I could not land enough because of dried up rage to keep her from chasing a FFB mage who just happend to have a hot streak proc few seconds into the pull, and who is used to me getting burst threat so he can go balls to the wall the moment we engage a boss (especially on trivial bosses). It's not the end of the world if something like this happens, the mage burned Illusions, I ran over and taunted her back, no harm done. But it's still annoying.


Haarg:

Don't get me wrong, I would never klick off a shield in any kind of tricky / dangerous situation. But there is just no reason to shield the tank in a "normal" pull during heroics, where I'm begging for rage to begin with.

Dhalphir
01-17-2009, 07:07 PM
Bottom line is.

if the tank is getting smashed hard enough to warrant a shield, then he won't complain about it because he won't be getting rage starved

if he's getting hit lightly enough that the shield would rage-starve him, he doesn't need the shield.

period.

squats
01-17-2009, 11:26 PM
It's not that I didn't land anything. It's just that I could not land enough because of dried up rage to keep her from chasing a FFB mage who just happend to have a hot streak proc few seconds into the pull, and who is used to me getting burst threat so he can go balls to the wall the moment we engage a boss (especially on trivial bosses). It's not the end of the world if something like this happens, the mage burned Illusions, I ran over and taunted her back, no harm done. But it's still annoying.

so what im seeing is maybe its a dpsers fault that shielding is a bad thing. it use to be dps waited until a few sunders were stacked to start.. now they go balls to the wall as soon as the tank pulls.

Slobash
01-19-2009, 11:49 AM
It's very helpful if the boss needs to be moved into a position away from the starting one or where your dps/healers need to get to a specific point. Fights like Heigan, Gluth, Sapphiron etc where you and your healers are on the move a bit at the start and your dps isn't going totally crazy right from the word go. Any buffer to stop an insta-gib in case all your healers are moving at once is a safe bet. On stationary pulls though use it as a mitigation tool rather than a starting move.

cudmaster
01-20-2009, 11:21 AM
...and your dps isn't going totally crazy right from the word go.


this... never happens.


I'm curious as to how prot warriors feel about getting Sacred Shielded before pulls (bosses and trash), when I raid heal I always drop it (and beacon) on the MT (usually a warrior) and have never had any complaints, does this interfere at all with warrior rage generation or do most prot warriors prefer it or not care one way or the other ?

IMHO, Pally's Sacred Shield isn't a big deal, it doesn't go up until AFTER you take a hit, and it only absorbs 500 base (what maybe 1200 total at the higest gear levels?) from the next hit, and has a 6 second internal cooldown, which is way less absorbtion and way less often than say, blocking with my shield... as it also makes the paladin crit more with their heals (more important really), which both saves them mana and makes me not die, a pally would be stupid to not put this up, hell when I tank on my pally I put it up on myself.

The bottom line is PW:S, don't do it.

If you feel that you MUST do it, at least tell them (and the dps) that you are going to do so.

Now if only I could get my pally healers to stop BOPing (i suppose it is properly HoP now...) me on accident in the middle of fights... /grumble

Fumanchu
01-20-2009, 12:38 PM
If you're looking to PW:S before a pull, all your rage issues could be solved with a mighty rage potion before the pull. So long as you get the potion in before you enter combat, it won't effect your in-combat timer (but you won't be able to chug another pot for 2 minutes)

Brokenhalo
01-20-2009, 09:44 PM
In my experience tanking i can not remember a shield that i received that i was happy about. Granted in some oh shit situations i might have received one, but i definitely did not notice then. The shield is basically even if warrior tank uses rage abilities nerfing his threat and the initial threat lead for a tank is very important so he can use more mitigation abilities ready to go when situation arrises as opposed to having the dps right behind you and all you can do is threat race. I raid heal as well if you think you are forced to pre heal a pull either you shouldn't be there and have some work to do yourself, or that tank really needs some work.

my 2 cents

Eled
01-21-2009, 01:15 AM
I personally cancel that shield when it is casted directly. In some situations when you can't charge and start only with bloodrage, a few lucky dodges in a row and find yourself with a depleted rage bar even in malygos. Add this situation to some rushy dps and things can go ugly. Other than that it's nice to have a shield sometimes.

Krashtork
01-21-2009, 01:27 AM
I really dislike shields before a pull. Always have, probably always will unless Blizz fixes it. (Which considering their track record with "Fixes" I'd really rather they didn't tweak with it)

Juon
01-21-2009, 03:26 AM
The only problems with pre-shielding is being in a aoe dps crazy group that starts the moment you charge in... not enough rage for the full aoe rotation.

Tiamar
01-21-2009, 03:33 AM
I think alot if it is situational based. For (heroic) fights like Sapphiron where the raid need to possition themselves before hitting their nuke buttons, I can't see it being an issue. For something more intense where the enrage timer is your worst enemy (like Malygos), I would agree that a shield isn't as handy as you'd like it to be.